Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Chanters vs. ElementFollow

#1 Dec 04 2008 at 9:13 PM Rating: Default
*
96 posts
Ive used the Chanters staff since I hit 40. Im 70 now. I hear a lot of talk about these ele staffs but have never used one. Am I missing out?

Edited, Dec 5th 2008 12:13am by synasta
#2 Dec 04 2008 at 9:51 PM Rating: Default
42 posts
Seriously?
#3 Dec 04 2008 at 10:03 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
**
762 posts
Short answer: Yes you're missing out.

Longer answer: Elemental staves have a hidden effect of magic accuracy+ for spells that match the staff. Bards should, at a minimum, get a light/apollo's for lullaby and an earth/terra staff for elegy. If you sub a mage job then also a dark/pluto's staff for resting.

What they'll basically do it reduce resist rates on the songs that match the element of the staff. They aren't very expensive and for most support jobs they're pretty much a requirement.
____________________________
Mikhalia wrote:
I care that the "No Child Left Behind" act has failed you.
#4 Dec 05 2008 at 6:28 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
652 posts
Don't bother getting a Pluto's Staff just for resting. The hMP on Dark and Pluto's is the same, so its a waste of money. Only get Pluto's if you have a job that casts dark-based spells.
____________________________
Foustian - Bahamut
75MNK 75PLD 75BRD 75RDM
97+6 Smithing
60 Woodworking
60 Clothcraft
60 Alchemy
60 Leathercraft
#5 Dec 05 2008 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
******
29,185 posts
Foustian wrote:
Don't bother getting a Pluto's Staff just for resting. The hMP on Dark and Pluto's is the same, so its a waste of money. Only get Pluto's if you have a job that casts dark-based spells.

should get it for the white border!

or am i just a freak for buying apollo's for my rdm (before i leveled/considered leveling brd), knowing it would be completely useless, just because i wanted the white border?
____________________________
BANNED

Creator and Leader of the Anti-Rog faction
#6 Dec 05 2008 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,041 posts
To cover all bases though, Elemental staves are useless for buffs. The added skill on Chanter's can break some buff tiers, so in certain special situations, it may still be useful to wear one.

Other than that, if your going to carry one, it's useful for a stoneskin build - Otherwise, get rid of it.
____________________________
Asmoranomar - Diabolos
BRD/RDM - Song Cast Time Setup
BRD/WHM - Wind Buff Setup
BRD/WHM - Wind Debuff Setup
BRD/WHM - String Buff Setup
BRD/WHM - String Debuff Setup
#7 Dec 06 2008 at 9:58 PM Rating: Decent
**
318 posts
Yeah, Chanter's is really only useful (at your level) for breaking a buff tier.

NQ Elemental staves add 10% ACC onto your spells. Say you're a freshly LV75 BRD (I know you're 70, but hypothetically speaking), your wind and singing skills will be 225 and 225 respectively. 225+225=450 450*.1=45. So using a Light Staff for lullaby adds the equivalent of 45 skill. Chanter's staff doesn't even come close to that.
____________________________
Keiro - That retired guy from Lakshmi
#8 Dec 07 2008 at 1:57 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,041 posts
KeiroThePoetic wrote:
NQ Elemental staves add 10% ACC onto your spells. Say you're a freshly LV75 BRD (I know you're 70, but hypothetically speaking), your wind and singing skills will be 225 and 225 respectively. 225+225=450 450*.1=45. So using a Light Staff for lullaby adds the equivalent of 45 skill. Chanter's staff doesn't even come close to that.


Correction - kind of. You had it right the first time you said it.

Quote:
NQ Elemental staves add 10% ACC onto your spells.


This. Stop. That's all the explination you need. Whether your fighting a lvl 1 mob or a lvl 9000! mob, your going to get a 10% bonus added to your overall MACC.

Quote:
Say you're a freshly LV75 BRD (I know you're 70, but hypothetically speaking), your wind and singing skills will be 225 and 225 respectively. 225+225=450 450*.1=45. So using a Light Staff for lullaby adds the equivalent of 45 skill. Chanter's staff doesn't even come close to that.


This is complicated, and incorrect. The ACC bonus is not based on anything. You get a flat rate of 10%. Because of how resist rates, level differences, weather bonuses, etc on-and-on, you can't possibly gauge how much 10% really means in terms of skill.

Furthermore, and a perfect case in point - There's some really old testing floating around on KI (i believe) showing that a 75 BRD that was decently geared, using a chanter's staff on Kirin and recording Ice Threnody lands and Elegy lands. Not surprisngly, none landed out of 30+ tries. The same test was done later with a nakked setup with HQ staves, and the staves gave at least a 10% bonus (I think one got close to 15% like it should be). While this doesn't really prove anything, it laid out more tests that eventually lead to the discovery that staves give a flat 10/15% land rate. (I actually think this was proven with a lvl 50 vs lvl 75 character on some high level mob)

____________________________
Asmoranomar - Diabolos
BRD/RDM - Song Cast Time Setup
BRD/WHM - Wind Buff Setup
BRD/WHM - Wind Debuff Setup
BRD/WHM - String Buff Setup
BRD/WHM - String Debuff Setup
#9 Dec 07 2008 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
977 posts
Quote:
or am i just a freak for buying apollo's for my rdm (before i leveled/considered leveling brd), knowing it would be completely useless, just because i wanted the white border?


Nope, HQ or GTFO! =P

Edited, Dec 7th 2008 5:57pm by Pluelf
____________________________
A drink. A drink. A drink.
#10 Dec 08 2008 at 7:20 AM Rating: Default
*
96 posts
ok Im going t o buy some staffs. What advantage will the HQ give over the NQ?
#11 Dec 08 2008 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
*
105 posts
You should always be using Elemental Staves for debuffs. Chanter's is still good for party buffs though.
#12 Dec 08 2008 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
947 posts
HQ is just more accuracy than the NQ staff. When I got apollo's and replaced my light staff, I had 0 lullaby resists chaining over 100 on colibri in merits. Granted that was a little bit of luck since mathematically I should have had -at least- 5... but that was way less than when I first merited there with a light staff.
My flashes on WHM also seem to be lasting longer, as in less resisted duration. I see the 12 second duration more often now. And Repose accuracy seems to have went up a lot too.

Apollo's is awesome.

People say 10 and 15% magic accuracy, though I don't know that the numbers are correct. I think they just assume 10 and 15 as per MAB on staves.

But Light staff will increase your lullaby accuracy a lot, and Apollo's furthers that even more.
#13 Dec 09 2008 at 11:06 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
186 posts
Asmoranomar wrote:

This is complicated, and incorrect. The ACC bonus is not based on anything. You get a flat rate of 10%. Because of how resist rates, level differences, weather bonuses, etc on-and-on, you can't possibly gauge how much 10% really means in terms of skill.

Furthermore, and a perfect case in point - There's some really old testing floating around on KI (i believe) showing that a 75 BRD that was decently geared, using a chanter's staff on Kirin and recording Ice Threnody lands and Elegy lands. Not surprisngly, none landed out of 30+ tries. The same test was done later with a nakked setup with HQ staves, and the staves gave at least a 10% bonus (I think one got close to 15% like it should be). While this doesn't really prove anything, it laid out more tests that eventually lead to the discovery that staves give a flat 10/15% land rate. (I actually think this was proven with a lvl 50 vs lvl 75 character on some high level mob)


Just a side note on the mathematics behind what I think Asmoranomar is saying:

In practice, what this means is that whatever your land rate is with all your gear, say hypothetically against mob X your land rate is 85% for song Y, then the NQ staff would put your land rate at 95%. If your rate was 15%, the NQ staff pushes it to 25%.

Now, this is different from +10%, which (if we go by how the other types of +% gear work), would give you an additional 10% of your current value. So +10% to a land rate of 85% would be 85% + 8.5% = 93.5%, and +10% of 15% would be 15% + 1.5% = 16.5%.

If the former really is indeed how the staves work (I'm inclined to believe it myself), this is often the reason why elemental staves continue to be the best accuracy weapon.
____________________________
PS2: Hades / BRD75 BLM75 RDM75 RNG75 WHM72
Windurst Rank 10; San D'Oria Rnak 10; Bastok Rank 9; ZM Last Verse; CoP Last Verse; ToAU completed
#14 Dec 09 2008 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
***
1,041 posts
Yeah...I guess it could be explained many ways. I didn't really mean to make it as complicated as it sounds after reading it again. I'll try to explain it again, and I'll follow up with something that hpsolo said that I don't quite agree with (don't worry, its not all bad ^^)

SE likes to repeat formulas for alot of things. While magic accuracy hasn't been determined, I personally mirror it to how the formulas for hit rate work. You can get alot of the information from wiki see how Skill, Eva Skill, ACC, EVA, DEX and AGI work together to come up with a single result.

The basis of my assumptions consider the "Hit Rate" for a spell, and I like to call it MACC%. This value, like hit rate, gives a single value that determines the chance of a spell landing. This is completely different than MACC.

We know that this MACC% is influenced directly by many things. Elemental Staves (+10%, +15%), Weather (+10%,+25%), Day of the Week (+10%), are a few that directly influence MACC% (also consider reverse effects!). We also know that base MACC% is calculated by things such as Magic Skills, Stats, and Levels.

This is where MACC and MEVA come into play. MACC also has direct modifiers (Alkalurops with its mighty +20!). Most of MACC however, is calculated by some formula using Skill and stats (chr). MEVA has only recently been known and has direct modifiers too - with roots starting from DNC's "Stutter Step" as well as the new RDM WS "Death Blossom". It is assumed that MEVA is also calculated in some way, with some of the better known pieces of the formula being based on stats (chr).

Once you have your MACC and MEVA levels, there is a bit of a calculated 'face off' of sorts, to determine your base MACC%. After this calulation is complete, a level difference/correction formula is applied, and you arrive at your final MACC% rate.

Hopefully this is explained a bit better. Unfortunately, this is how I have theroized how this works, and I could be completely wrong. But I do think this fills in alot of gaps to some questions like:

Why does completely gimp person with HQ staves beats someone with none (the flat MACC% bonus), or...
Why a well geared person can't seem to land spells any better than the next player on end-game events(the level correction), and others...

Which brings me full circle to...
Quote:
If the former really is indeed how the staves work (I'm inclined to believe it myself), this is often the reason why elemental staves continue to be the best accuracy weapon.


A bit of a disclamer though - I know what you were implying, and you are absolutely correct. End-game wise, fighting higher level mobs, and general game-play where MACC% really matters, staves will probably always win - hands down.

The part I do want you to think about is this -
If your level 75, and walk up to a lvl 1 bunny and you have a choice of +20 MACC or a flat +15% MACC - which is really better?

+20 MACC at level 1 is an incredible amount, and I'm betting the bonus would probably outweigh the MACC% bonus. Of course, this is only theretical due to the fact that, who really cares? It's a level 1 mob! (The real answer - level correction wins. Even if you had severe negative stats, the level correction formula would give you a tremendous bonus)

However, by looking at this extreme, and swapping roles, you can see how some incredibly high level mobs, such as Kirin, will always be a pain in the ass!
____________________________
Asmoranomar - Diabolos
BRD/RDM - Song Cast Time Setup
BRD/WHM - Wind Buff Setup
BRD/WHM - Wind Debuff Setup
BRD/WHM - String Buff Setup
BRD/WHM - String Debuff Setup
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 13 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (13)