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Chatoyant Staff & lolcharmFollow

#1 Jul 30 2012 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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Any confirmations that the +charm success is indeed on the new all-in-one staff? Sorry if it's been said somewhere all ready, I was out on vacation last week when the update hit and I'm a bit behind reading all the new stuff.
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#2 Jul 30 2012 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
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From my understanding, the light staff didn't necessarily have +charm accuracy, it just had +light accuracy and by extension that included Charm. In short, since the Iridal/Chatoyant staves also have +light accuracy, I would be really surprised if they didn't help charm.
#3 Jul 30 2012 at 10:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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This is an interesting thought and I believe it has been debated if the charm success rate from Apollo's is an individual trait or part of the light accuracy aspect of the staff. What piques my interest is if it is indeed associated with the light accuracy, then the magian light accuracy staff should be the best for charm rate.

I'm picturing Charm success +30 O.O <drool>

/equip Main "Surya's staff +3"
/ja "Charm" <Charlize Theron>
/equip Legs


I don't think that's the case, but I don't know of any testing that has been done on it.

#4 Jul 30 2012 at 10:21 PM Rating: Good
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May never see someone take the time to test it with charm out the window probably for good, but I still like to level stuff as /bst and even if I didn't, I can't seem to give up my trusty Apollo's, though its been sitting in storage for a long time....
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#5 Jul 30 2012 at 10:31 PM Rating: Good
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charm considers level, your chr, and mobs chr. I have done a little testing on that.

light element is probably a factor, but as you say, can't tell
The magian staff is not an option... bst cannot equip it... unless you want mage/bst.. It might be somewhat useful for that.

Edited, Jul 31st 2012 12:32am by Xilk
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#6 Jul 31 2012 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Ya the light/apollo's staff makes a difference on charm success due to the +10 to +15% success rate addition near the end of the charm equation. There was work done on this years ago (like 4-5). Anything that would up light, would also affect charm.
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#7 Jul 31 2012 at 6:16 PM Rating: Good
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arrghhhh wrote:
Ya the light/apollo's staff makes a difference on charm success due to the +10 to +15% success rate addition near the end of the charm equation. There was work done on this years ago (like 4-5). Anything that would up light, would also affect charm.


please give a reference. I have not seen an actual charm equation.
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#8 Aug 01 2012 at 5:39 PM Rating: Decent
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The "equation" was probably made using the help of Gauge, where you could probably see how adjusting your CHR/gear/whatever would affect the message Gauge gives you (if messed with in a large enough quantity), not unlike how melee accuracy was originally tested by using the /check messages for high/normal/low evasion against a target.
#9 Aug 07 2012 at 10:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Speaking as a bst who's been leveling pretty much the old fashioned way..

I've been using my chatoyant on charm; if people have ideas on tests besides "just doing it" I'm up for it; just tell me what. But I can tell you by eye I have seen no difference in mischarms/charming between chat and apollo's.
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#10 Aug 08 2012 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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maryadavies wrote:
Speaking as a bst who's been leveling pretty much the old fashioned way..


You had me at hello. Seriously /cheer!!
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#11 Aug 08 2012 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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maryadavies wrote:
Speaking as a bst who's been leveling pretty much the old fashioned way..

I've been using my chatoyant on charm; if people have ideas on tests besides "just doing it" I'm up for it; just tell me what. But I can tell you by eye I have seen no difference in mischarms/charming between chat and apollo's.


The most useful baseline would be to find a EM mob and keep charming it with a fixed amount of CHR. Charm it at least 100 times.

Next, equip Chatoyant Staff and do another 100 charms. Make sure you balance your CHR so it matches what it was before. You will need to remove 5 chr in other gear to do this.

Post numbers.
I also suggest not maxing up your CHR when doing the baseline test. It is very likely that 95% is the cap for Charm success rate. If you are close to this w/out the staff, obviously the test would be no good.

Gauge is not a very precise indicator. I have done some charm rate test work. I'm guess the message "...should be able to charm" (which is the best message you can get) indicates you have better than 50% chance. I don't have enough numbers to nail this down, but I do have some pretty good indicators.

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#12 Aug 09 2012 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
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After I xp with my friend, I'll do some testing to that nature guys. Compared to the old days, my charm gear is actually proly a little gimpy (It's hard to get low level gear on the AH now a days) so that might be all the better. Before I get going for now, here's the current charm gear, let me know if I need to leave anything in the mh/on the porter moogle for the test:

60 bst

Staff; Chatoyant Staff
Rings: Moon rings
Neck:Flower Necklace
Hands: Beast Gloves
Waist: Corsette +1 (I was lucky to score that)
Feet: Beast Gaiters (Fulltimed; I realize I'll proly have to change that)
Body: Gaudy Harness
Head: Beast Helm

I'm thinking about doing it without most of my charm gear just to see. Oh and just went out to farm me a Tungi for BST, got first try.

[edit] Also a thought. I have a MMM maze that I sometimes use on BST when camps are sh*tty. I have it set to Aquan; It just occurred to me that might be the best place to do such a test (tho I will lose that time.) Considering I can proly set that to any mob type within reason(Could prolly even set it to amorphs which I know are notoriously hard to charm); what kind of mob do you guys would think would be a fair test? I'm willing to go with Aquan or Amorph or Bird. (I'm guessing those three would be the most consistent on what shows up.)

Edited, Aug 9th 2012 6:54pm by maryadavies
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#13 Aug 10 2012 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good
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maryadavies
[edit wrote:
Also a thought. I have a MMM maze that I sometimes use on BST when camps are sh*tty. I have it set to Aquan; It just occurred to me that might be the best place to do such a test (tho I will lose that time.) Considering I can proly set that to any mob type within reason(Could prolly even set it to amorphs which I know are notoriously hard to charm); what kind of mob do you guys would think would be a fair test? I'm willing to go with Aquan or Amorph or Bird. (I'm guessing those three would be the most consistent on what shows up.)

Edited, Aug 9th 2012 6:54pm by maryadavies


MMM would help get a mob the same level as you however, it shouldn't be too hard to find a matching level mob outside either. Also, the time in MMM won't be enough. It takes at least 25 minutes to charm 100 times. Thats not enough to test w/ and w/out staff. You really want to use the same MOB to test on. The mob's level and chr will not change.
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#14 Aug 10 2012 at 10:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gotcha. That's what I figured out after one try. So I went to Ule for testing. Mind, I'd have times the bunny would get away from me/despawn on me (I'm not willing to die to test, so I'd have to walk it a good bit from its spawn point; sometimes when you use Tame it'll despawn before you can recharm it, it's something you live with), but I always did one that was EM. (Had to "walk the dog" aka, force respawns at one point b/c they were coming up Ts and DC) Here's the raw data on Googledocs.I think that shows; Dramatic diff with chat than without. Left off most of my charm gear for the test as you can see by how much +chr I had on.


Also forgot to mention this in the spreadsheet; "Charmed" is a success, "fail" is a mischarm (and the rabbit was kicking my tail).

Edited, Aug 10th 2012 12:56pm by maryadavies
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#15 Aug 10 2012 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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maryadavies wrote:
Gotcha. That's what I figured out after one try. So I went to Ule for testing. Mind, I'd have times the bunny would get away from me/despawn on me (I'm not willing to die to test, so I'd have to walk it a good bit from its spawn point; sometimes when you use Tame it'll despawn before you can recharm it, it's something you live with), but I always did one that was EM. (Had to "walk the dog" aka, force respawns at one point b/c they were coming up Ts and DC) Here's the raw data on Googledocs.I think that shows; Dramatic diff with chat than without. Left off most of my charm gear for the test as you can see by how much +chr I had on.


Also forgot to mention this in the spreadsheet; "Charmed" is a success, "fail" is a mischarm (and the rabbit was kicking my tail).

Edited, Aug 10th 2012 12:56pm by maryadavies



Thank you for going out and testing!
If mob was same level and same mob type, then that's good. doesn't matter if you lose individuals.
your sheet shows 89% success rate w/out staff and 97% success rate w/ staff.

I'm a little worried about the use of tame though. That probably alters success chances, but the recast is so long that I dont think you used it much.

I think its safe to say that Chatoyant improves charm success rate.

This doesn't tell how much, because you have such a high charm rate already. However, 10% for iridal and 15% for Chatoyant is a good guess.


I actually built a chr- set for my bst and copied it back to the test server to test out charm and get a formula... just haven't finished getting data. might do that soon, since I'm winding down from all the other stuff I've been doing in game.

Edited, Aug 10th 2012 4:35pm by Xilk
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#16 Aug 10 2012 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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True. Bunnies are on the "easy to charm" list to begin with; at my level there really isn't any good slimes or hecteyes (which are on the hard to charm list) so I went with what my xp pets would be. (Oh and I went back there and got 61; will proly change camps next time.)

Hopefully we can get some more data. ^^ Oh and btw; using Tame is reflex with me atm when I'm getting my can beat up (but then for me, mischarm can equal a big fat splat); hopefully using it to keep the mob from kicking my can didn't skew the results a lot.

Edited, Aug 10th 2012 5:51pm by maryadavies
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#17 Aug 10 2012 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
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maryadavies wrote:
True. Bunnies are on the "easy to charm" list to begin with; at my level there really isn't any good slimes or hecteyes (which are on the hard to charm list) so I went with what my xp pets would be. (Oh and I went back there and got 61; will proly change camps next time.)

Hopefully we can get some more data. ^^ Oh and btw; using Tame is reflex with me atm when I'm getting my can beat up (but then for me, mischarm can equal a big fat splat); hopefully using it to keep the mob from kicking my can didn't skew the results a lot.

Edited, Aug 10th 2012 5:51pm by maryadavies



Its fine. I'm a bit motivated now. I just spent about an hour and a half on test server working on charm only to realize I"ve been charming on light's day...

I have a theory for gauge, but I need to collect more data about charm first.
gauge can give 5 possible messages:
"PLAYER cannot charm the MOB!" - this means mob is immune to charm
"It would be very difficult for PLAYER to charm the MOB" - I suspect this means less than 25% chance
"It would be difficult for PLAYER to charm the MOB" - I suspect this means between 25% and 50% chance
"PLAYER might be able to charm the MOB" - I suspect this means between 50% and 75% chance
"PLAYER should be able to charm the MOB" - I suspect that his means 75% or greater.

Testing so far is on EM mobs. I know that gauge does consider both BST level and CHR. I also confirmed tonight that it does NOT include Staff bonus (I suspect weather bonus would not be included either, and that it would follow magical enfeebling buff patterns).

Today I was testing on level 94 TseTse fly's in Battallia Downs S. Its nice that there is a pixie nearby.
At level 94, 88 CHR is the min chr to recieve the message "should be able to charm"
60 CHR is the min for might be able to charm

I had 98/114 successful charms at 88 (85.96%)
and 23/35 successful charms at 60 CHR (65.71%)
then I realized it was light day and stopped. I think there is a 10% bonus from the day. I also think there is a 10% penalty for dark's day.

I don't have enough numbers to back these up. but if any of the leveling bst want to collect similiar information, it would be tremendously helpful. I"m waiting for darks day to end now, to collect data again.


oh btw, I also know charm success compares player chr to mob chr. I did a test as drk/bst and used gauge on a VT tiger. I found the limit where the gauge message changes. then adjusted gear and used absorb-CHR. the message shot way up when I lowered the mobs chr by 21 and kept mien the same. it didn't go up just one level from difficult to might as I planned. It went form difficult to 'should'.

lowering the mobs chr is a huge boost to charm success rate.

Edited, Aug 10th 2012 10:53pm by Xilk
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#18 Aug 10 2012 at 10:24 PM Rating: Good
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That's interesting, and I'll be watching this. I'd heard from friends who leveled BST before I finally decided to that bsts should have a apollo's, because it increases your survival rate (less mischarms). Since I have 3 mage jobs (Owspaceowspace; mage jobs are heck on your bag, esp blm) and the apollo's completed the set right before the update, I was one of the first on Quetz to have a chatoyant staff, thanks to a friend.

It's good to know that people in my situation who level bst won't have to buy another apollo's. ^^
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#19 Aug 13 2012 at 8:28 PM Rating: Good
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fire day/earth day
71/121 success on EM tsetse fly 60 chr

58.67%

earth/water day
112/155 success on EM tsetse fly 88 chr
72.26%


Edited, Aug 13th 2012 11:27pm by Xilk
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#20 Aug 14 2012 at 5:54 AM Rating: Good
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Assuming it relies on MAcc with CHR as its stat modifier, we'd expect you to gain 1% Charm rate for every 1 CHR you add until you are more than 10 CHR above the monster (then it adds +0.5 per CHR). You can use Mysterious Light or Eyes on Me to calculate the CHR of the mobs you target: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Blue_Magic_Damage#CHR_Modified_Magical_Attack
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#21 Aug 14 2012 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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I was tired when I posted these, but for anyone who might not have noticed this confirms that light's day does improve charm success rate.

My numbers for 88 chr took a surprising downturn. I expected 78% and I was surprised when it stayed at 72%.

I have 28 CHR difference causing a 14% change in charm success rate. This seems like a straight-forward .5% increase for each chr though.
I'm really impatient that I can't login and test the tsetse fly's chr on blu right now. probably the fastest way to nail down the first part of the formula now. next will be testing how Macc, level and subjob affect it.

Edited, Aug 14th 2012 12:43pm by Xilk

Okay. level 94 Tsetse fly vs lvl 99 Blu/drk

int 89
chr 80
mab 20 (trait)

Eyes on me: 403 damage
Mysterious Light: 178 damage

absorb-CHR

CHR > 101 : Eyes on me 496
CHR > 100 : Mysterious LIght 237


Please double check my math, but I believe this puts the Tsetse Fly's CHR at 60.
this would imply that gauge will first give the "..might be able to charm..." message when master chr = mob chr.

that would be oh so nice.

Edited, Aug 14th 2012 10:02pm by Xilk

Edited, Aug 14th 2012 10:05pm by Xilk

Edited, Aug 15th 2012 12:33am by Xilk
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#22 Aug 14 2012 at 10:54 PM Rating: Good
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lvl	might	should	m - fly	s - fly 
96		71	-60	11 
95	53	78	-7	18 
94	60	88	0	28 
93	67	92	7	32 
92	74	99	14	39 
91	81	106	21	46 
90	88	113	28	53 
 


I ran back and forth after changing my main level and finding the min chr level needed to get the "might" message and "should" message from gauge.

if you subract the fly's chr from it, you get a nice pattern forming.
the should for level 94 makes me wonder though... feels like it should be 85 chr to match the pattern. makes me want to go back and check. I couldn't check might message at level 96+ because I can only get -32 chr in gear for bst.

I'll probably fill out the levels down to 85 if I can for the rest.might be tricky w/ gear.

You can discern the level of the tsetse fly by having 528~530 attack when you check for def values.
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#23 Aug 15 2012 at 6:31 AM Rating: Good
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Unfortunately there's some inconsistency on those pages about Eyes on Me and Mysterious Light's modifiers. Their individual pages say 40% and 30% while the main page says 20% for both. I think that 40% for Eyes on Me is correct, so using that I come up with 80 as the fly's CHR value (100CHR vs. 60 after Absorb).

I also agree that I'd rather the S value for 94 be 85 rather than 88. =p

We do not see a decrease in the slope of this line as it breaks the (Your CHR - Mob CHR)>10 boundary, so it either does not directly reflect MAcc or what we think we know about MAcc is wrong. If it's the first, then a particular gauge message isn't going to correspond to a particular Charm rate (we already know that it doesn't, actually, because light staff doesn't affect gauge). Things to think about!
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#24 Aug 15 2012 at 8:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The most useful baseline would be to find a EM mob and keep charming it with a fixed amount of CHR. Charm it at least 100 times.

Next, equip Chatoyant Staff and do another 100 charms. Make sure you balance your CHR so it matches what it was before. You will need to remove 5 chr in other gear to do this.


Not sure if it was pointed out already or not, but Apollo's already had 2 CHR on it so the CHR difference between that and Chatoyant is actually 3, not 5.
#25 Aug 15 2012 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Unfortunately there's some inconsistency on those pages about Eyes on Me and Mysterious Light's modifiers. Their individual pages say 40% and 30% while the main page says 20% for both. I think that 40% for Eyes on Me is correct, so using that I come up with 80 as the fly's CHR value (100CHR vs. 60 after Absorb).

I also agree that I'd rather the S value for 94 be 85 rather than 88. =p

We do not see a decrease in the slope of this line as it breaks the (Your CHR - Mob CHR)>10 boundary, so it either does not directly reflect MAcc or what we think we know about MAcc is wrong. If it's the first, then a particular gauge message isn't going to correspond to a particular Charm rate (we already know that it doesn't, actually, because light staff doesn't affect gauge). Things to think about!



80 chr makes more sense for a level 94 mob than 60 chr does, imo. I'll double check the 88 chr @ level 94 when I get a chance. I have a balrahn's ring w/ me also, so I'll see what other M.acc I can equip and how it might effect gauges or not. I'm pretty sure it won't. I'm not sure if Macc itself will affect charm success or not.
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#26 Aug 15 2012 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Not sure if it was pointed out already or not, but Apollo's already had 2 CHR on it so the CHR difference between that and Chatoyant is actually 3, not 5.


Yeah, I actually removed about 6 CHR to keep it matching when I did the bunny charm test. (I removed my Corsette +1 and put it in satchel) Still. I don't have a apollo's anymore to test that (bag really when whew when I got my chat synthed), to be honest.
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#27 Aug 15 2012 at 4:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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You don't need to compare Chatoyant to Apollo.

you just need to compare chatoyant to no staff to see the effect.
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