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Killer Instict is up for Enhancement ~ very niceFollow

#27 Feb 20 2012 at 12:57 AM Rating: Good
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We actually don't know how Monster Helm is working. It could be +4 seconds per level, or it could be +1/15 duration per level. The AF1 feet for Circle jobs that got patched this past update were actually +50% duration and not +30 seconds duration, so they get 4.5 minute Circles now. We might end up with a 293 second duration with AF2+2 helm.

Here is an example:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Arcane_Circle
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#28 Feb 20 2012 at 11:56 AM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
We actually don't know how Monster Helm is working. It could be +4 seconds per level, or it could be +1/15 duration per level. The AF1 feet for Circle jobs that got patched this past update were actually +50% duration and not +30 seconds duration, so they get 4.5 minute Circles now. We might end up with a 293 second duration with AF2+2 helm.

Here is an example:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Arcane_Circle


thank you. I guess we wait until we get it to see.
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#29 Feb 24 2012 at 8:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Test Server update today, checked out the new Killer Instinct...

With 5/5 Killer Instinct merits and enhanced Monster Helm +2 the KI duration is 3:55.

Edit: Hmmmmmm! Something is wrong here... The minimum KI duration is off by 5 seconds. With only 1 merit, and no helm, it lasts 2:55. o _o I get the "Falkirk's Killer Instinct effect wears off." message around the 2:54 timer mark, so the base duration is a tad short.

Edited, Feb 24th 2012 10:37am by Bookmarku
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#30 Mar 27 2012 at 7:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Now that the Killer Instinct update is here, it feels good, man.

50% Intimidation rate and -40% DT? I'll take it. :D
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#31 Mar 27 2012 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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So what I would like to know is how Killer Instinct effects fellow party members? I know party members benefit from the extra duration with merits. 3min to 4min. But can it be further enhanced? I.e. bst wears Ferine Cabasset +2 and Ferine Gausape +2 for Augments "Killer" effects and 5x killer effects merits. Do those buffs transfer to party members when the bst uses Killer Instinct? Or are those buffs for the bst only?

Short version: can a bst boost damage for party members with gear/merits when he uses Killer Instinct?

#32 Mar 27 2012 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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Bookmarku wrote:
Now that the Killer Instinct update is here, it feels good, man.

50% Intimidation rate and -40% DT? I'll take it. :D



Yeeha!

10% native trait
5% from monster helm +2
5% from pipilaka belt
15% from killer instinct
2% from tatami shield
2% from killer shortbow
3% from vermin earring

42% intimidation rate... I take it you are using Wizard Cookei or Ginger Cookie? for the last 10~12%?

So you are overshooting by perhaps 4%

Monster Helm +2
Killer Instinct
Native Trait
Tatami shield
Killer shortbow
Food

these seem to be pretty easily available sources for any Killer Effect BST will use.

Seems 44% Intimidation rate is pretty easy to do for BST vs any mob in our categories...

Still this opens some really cool possibilities for tanking on BST main instead of pet. (can still snarl to pet in emergency)
Unlike PDT, the intimidation can block pretty much any action the mob is taking including spells and Tp moves. So there is a 50% Chance that Firega 4.. won't go off when bst is the main target... That protects ALOT more than just me from damage. Thats a 50% paralyze when you are the target!

It makes me want to tank admantoise or behemoth w/ this setup. (horns of war here I come; even better: LEGION!!). I wonder how much damage Meteor would actually do...

did you see 1000 needles intimidated much during your test?


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#33 Mar 27 2012 at 2:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Intimidation is affected by your stats vs the enemy's. You won't intimidate anything worth fighting nearly that much. Very nice DT-% though. I forgot it did that.

Now to test whether it would work on spells. 1000 needles is a plantoid move, so it's damage is obviously reduced. But would, say, a spell cast by a plantoid be reduced, or is it not technically a plantoid move and would deal full damage?
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#34 Mar 27 2012 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
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louispv wrote:
Intimidation is affected by your stats vs the enemy's. You won't intimidate anything worth fighting nearly that much. Very nice DT-% though. I forgot it did that.

Now to test whether it would work on spells. 1000 needles is a plantoid move, so it's damage is obviously reduced. But would, say, a spell cast by a plantoid be reduced, or is it not technically a plantoid move and would deal full damage?


Fixed that for you because it is completely false. We've tested and parsed this quite thoroughly.
50% of any action the mob takes that is targeted at you will be intimidated. It doesn't matter what the ability is. Its not like a blue spell which is classified as a plantoid type...

Have you honestly never seen a mob try to cast a spell on you and get intimidated instead?
I've seen it. It works.

If you cap killer effects+ (which i forgot to add tamer's ring for the occasional 3% bringing an easy 49% KE set!!) you have 50% intimidation rate, and 40% -dt... 80% of the time anyway.. because it will only last for 4/5 min. You need to go to the trouble of having the jugs and Killer effects+ food on you... but dang that's awesome. Its probably not possilbe, and definitely not worth it to try to stack this to 50% mdt or pdt gear separately... well you would only need 35% to cap it (15% from killer instinct) but still its all going to be worth 1/2 as effective...

So tank on master for 4 min... snarl when it wears off... then do it again in another minute if you need to.
I think I'll start carrying stacks of these crackers in my satchel.

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#35 Mar 27 2012 at 4:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Breaze wrote:
So what I would like to know is how Killer Instinct effects fellow party members? I know party members benefit from the extra duration with merits. 3min to 4min. But can it be further enhanced? I.e. bst wears Ferine Cabasset +2 and Ferine Gausape +2 for Augments "Killer" effects and 5x killer effects merits. Do those buffs transfer to party members when the bst uses Killer Instinct? Or are those buffs for the bst only?

Short version: can a bst boost damage for party members with gear/merits when he uses Killer Instinct?



Ferine Cabasset +2 doesn't affect Killer effects or Killer instinct at all.
Monster Helm +2 does. It increases KI merit potency (maximum of +1 min duration via merits) Also it gives +5 to Killer effects.
The extended duration from Monster helm +2 should affect party members. Its really just enhancing the JA so the duration is set when the JA is used.
It works the same s other circle abilities for other party members:
+15% damage dealt
-15% damage taken
+15% Killer effect

This is all the bonus other players will get. Killer effects+ on bst main will not affect other players.
This is really what is already happening w/ bst. However it is stacking higher due to Ferine Gausape +2 and the BST's higher killer effect.

this is also giving a +25% damage bonus if you have Killer effects capped this way..

This might help peak the ruinators up to 4k more often... depends on how much str I sacrifice for it..

I wish we had a magian axe that added Killer effects now ^.^.
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#36 Mar 27 2012 at 4:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Breaze wrote:
Short version: can a bst boost damage for party members with gear/merits when he uses Killer Instinct?


My guess would be that you can't boost party members' Killer Instinct effect, aside from the extended duration. If it has been shown otherwise, mah bad, but that'd be my inclination. Edit: Xilk answered this faster and much better!

Xilk wrote:
10% native trait
5% from monster helm +2
5% from pipilaka belt
15% from killer instinct
2% from tatami shield
2% from killer shortbow
3% from vermin earring

42% intimidation rate... I take it you are using Wizard Cookei or Ginger Cookie? for the last 10~12%?
So you are overshooting by perhaps 4%


Yeah, you're right I used Wizard Cookie - I've got all 7 types of killer effect cookies on hand. :) And yeah, I overshot the cap... ; ;
Edit: Actually, I have 5/5 Killer Effect merits too... So I overshot by way more?

Xilk wrote:
Still this opens some really cool possibilities for tanking on BST main instead of pet. (can still snarl to pet in emergency)
Unlike PDT, the intimidation can block pretty much any action the mob is taking including spells and Tp moves. So there is a 50% Chance that Firega 4.. won't go off when bst is the main target... That protects ALOT more than just me from damage. Thats a 50% paralyze when you are the target!

It makes me want to tank admantoise or behemoth w/ this setup. (horns of war here I come; even better: LEGION!!). I wonder how much damage Meteor would actually do...

did you see 1000 needles intimidated much during your test?


I was under the impression TP moves were like WSs in that they can't be paralyzed. :o In any case, no, I never intimidated Needle Shot or 1000 Needles. Spells on the other hand, I've intimidated lots of those. :3

It was purely for goofing around, but I also wanted to poke Pancimani with the Plantoid Killer set.

Also of note, with info from this BG post by Byrthnoth, you can pass the -50% damage taken cap by taking advantage of Killer Effects.

Edited, Mar 27th 2012 6:36pm by Bookmarku
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#37 Mar 27 2012 at 4:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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hmmm... I might have been confusing weaponskills with job abilities... Which to monster tp moves fall under? Weaponskills or Job abilities?
We should have plenty of opportunity to find out w/ the Killer Instinct builds now... you are probably right and they can't be intimidated...

I forgot about Killer effects merits also!!

15% killer effects traits + merits
15% Killer instinct
10~12% from food
helm 5%

bow 2%
shield 2%
ring 3% (but stupid latent conditions)

I'm just planning what I want my set to be (and I'm thinking aloud on the forum).. 45% is solidly covered... 47% if I stick just to HQ food.
The last 3% is a comparison of trade offs:

Tatami shield wins if I'm not dual-wielding
Killer Shortbow can be equipped anytime, but swapping for pet or petfood costs TP when shortbow goes back on. (I was doing this for over a year)
Tamer's ring gets the 3% perfectly, but has the really stupid latent making it no good for WS's

There's also an easy 5% from pipilaka belt or melaco mittens if its birds or plants.. then you dont' need to worry w/ shield vs, bow vs ring... but my inventory is overflowing enough already...
I think I'll probably be using the bow and leave it at 49% most the time. use the shield only when not dual wielding. the killer effects food stacks to 99 so I think I'll be carrying each and put them in same macro as killer instinct. they only last 3 min....

Edited, Mar 27th 2012 6:52pm by Xilk



Oh yeah! I thought of something to test!
While Killer Instinct is active, what happens when you switch pets?

Do the effects stay the same for the mob family, or do they change? (i suspect they stay the same)
I'll test this when I get home if you don't hit it first. The duration was so short before, it wasn't really a valid question.. now it might be useful to know.

Quote:
Also of note, with info from this BG post by Byrthnoth, you can pass the -50% damage taken cap by taking advantage of Killer Effects.


I remembered that, but the best you can get is 62.5%
The -dt from ferine Gausape's effect on Killer effects is 1/2 the killer effect. if you have 50% -pdt then the remaining damge is reduced by 25% (max from gausape) you only get a net reduction of 62.5% Unless the 15% from killer effect does not count towards this 50% pdt cap... which I doubt.
Its kind of tricky this way. I think you get the most benefit from killer effect bonus capped 25%. This would mean any -damage taken gear would be 25% less effective than normal.. I'm not sure where the ideal mix would be for bst. I'm guessing only a few pieces w/ large boosts would be worth it.. ~40% total from Killer instinct and killer effects bonsues seems rather worthwhile.


Edited, Mar 27th 2012 7:29pm by Xilk
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#38 Mar 27 2012 at 5:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Xilk wrote:

I think I'll probably be using the bow and leave it at 49% most the time. use the shield only when not dual wielding. the killer effects food stacks to 99 so I think I'll be carrying each and put them in same macro as killer instinct. they only last 3 min....

Oh yeah! I thought of something to test!
While Killer Instinct is active, what happens when you switch pets?

Do the effects stay the same for the mob family, or do they change? (i suspect they stay the same)
I'll test this when I get home if you don't hit it first. The duration was so short before, it wasn't really a valid question.. now it might be useful to know.


NQ food is 3 minutes if you're going that route, yeah. HQ food is quite nice, lasting 5 minutes and a lil' extra potency if you need it. :)

As for your question about pet swapping, hmmm... You're probably right about the Killer bonus remaining the same, i.e. potency against the original pet's prey. But it's worth checking out!

Edit:So, since Byrth's testing shows PDT and Killer effects being calculated in seperate steps for damage taken, would this work?...

Axe / Axe / Killer Shortbow / _______
Monster Helm +2 / Twilight Torque / Suppanomimi / Brutal Earring
Ferine Gausape +2 / Melaco Mittens / Dark Ring / Dark Ring
Mollusca Mantle / Nierenschutz / Ogier's Breeches / Jingang Greaves

Twilight Torque -5% PDT / -5% MDT
Melaco Mittens -3% PDT
Dark Ring x2 -12% PDT / -12% MDT
Mollusca Mantle -5% PDT / -5% MDT
Nierenschutz -3% PDT / -3% MDT
Ogier's Breeches -5% PDT
Jingang Greaves -3% PDT

= -36% PDT and -25% MDT from gear

An extra -15% DT from Killer instinct gives -51% PDT and -40% MDT.

Natural Trait - 10% Killer effect
Monster Helm +2 - 5% Killer effect
Killer Shortbow - 2% Killer effect
Killer Effects Merits x5 - 5% Killer effect
Killer Instinct Bonus - 15% Killer effect

That's 37% Killer effect, and if you eat HQ cookie/cracker you'll be at 49% Killer effects. Divide that value in half and you end up with an additional -24% PDT/MDT for a total of -75% PDT and -64% MDT. O_O Did I do the math right?

Edit: Found an error. :x

Edited, Mar 27th 2012 7:50pm by Bookmarku
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#39 Mar 27 2012 at 5:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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ha! hq food is perfect then! 5 min is same as killer instinct recast! I love it!


in your plantoid killer shot, are you wearing any additional -pdt gear?

As I see it you are getting the 25% damage reduction from gausape and capped killer effects. that would reduce the 500 damage from 1000 needles to 375. Reducing that to 299 is just shy of another 20% reduction. I expect 15% reduction from killer instinct... but where is the other ~5% pdt coming from?

what neck pieces is that?


Quote:
That's 32% Killer effect, and if you eat HQ cookie/cracker you'll be at 44% Killer effects. Divide that value in half and you end up with an additional -22% PDT/MDT for a total of -73% PDT and -62% MDT. O_O Did I do the math right?


you are missing 5% on the killer effects. its 47%
15% from trait + merits
15% from Killer instinct
12% from HQ food
5% from monster helm
thats 47%
shortbow for 49%
Edited, Mar 27th 2012 7:44pm by Xilk

Edited, Mar 27th 2012 7:45pm by Xilk
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#40 Mar 27 2012 at 5:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Xilk wrote:
ha! hq food is perfect then! 5 min is same as killer instinct recast! I love it!


in your plantoid killer shot, are you wearing any additional -pdt gear?

As I see it you are getting the 25% damage reduction from gausape and capped killer effects. that would reduce the 500 damage from 1000 needles to 375. Reducing that to 299 is just shy of another 20% reduction. I expect 15% reduction from killer instinct... but where is the other ~5% pdt coming from?

what neck pieces is that?


Oh, Wiglen Gorget. You are correct, sir.

Xilk wrote:

you are missing 5% on the killer effects. its 47%
15% from trait + merits
15% from Killer instinct
12% from HQ food
5% from monster helm
thats 47%
shortbow for 49%


Sweet, thanks. :3 Corrected~

Edited, Mar 27th 2012 8:43pm by Bookmarku
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#41 Mar 27 2012 at 5:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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your -pdt and -mdt values are correct

you would have 49% killer effect for 24% -damage taken. However, you are missing the tricky point of this.

the normal damage taken reduction, and the killer effects damage reduction are in 2 separate steps.
You cannot add them together.
you will NOT get 74% damage reduction this way.
You will get 50% physical damage reduction, then a second calculation of 24% reduction

taking it slow and easy to see we'll do it like this:
monster hits you for 100 damage!!
PDT kicks in for 50%, you take 50 damage!
Killer effect reduction kicks in for 24%
you take 38 damage!

The 24% is calculated AFTER it is already reduced by 50%
The total reduction will be 62%, not 74%
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#42 Mar 27 2012 at 5:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ahhh, gotcha! Thanks for the clarification!
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#43 Mar 27 2012 at 6:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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that is an awesome damage reduction set btw.

and you would still be getting 55% magic reduction total from that set also... .not counting Shell

Edited, Mar 27th 2012 8:18pm by Xilk
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#44 Mar 27 2012 at 10:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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How come no one ever brings up Beast Trousers +1 in their KE build? Is the effect different from what I'm thinking or is it just not worth it to give up the stout servant/haste/etc on the ferine pants?
#45 Mar 28 2012 at 6:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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cuttysarc wrote:
How come no one ever brings up Beast Trousers +1 in their KE build? Is the effect different from what I'm thinking or is it just not worth it to give up the stout servant/haste/etc on the ferine pants?


I think it's mainly because the effect is so small compared to all the other pieces (Beast Trousers/+1 are 1% Killer effect, so that would add 0.5% PDT/MDT/Damage dealt, but depending on the rest of your setup that 0.5% might disappear due to mathematical rounding). So, yeah, it's a large trade-off that I'd only make if I didn't have other options available for that slot.
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#46 Mar 28 2012 at 6:48 AM Rating: Good
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cuttysarc wrote:
How come no one ever brings up Beast Trousers +1 in their KE build? Is the effect different from what I'm thinking or is it just not worth it to give up the stout servant/haste/etc on the ferine pants?


its useful for testing, but generally not worth it in a set. all the other pieces usually have more stats beside killer effects, or bigger stats or they are in less critical slots.

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#47 Mar 28 2012 at 9:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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From my encounter with the Sabotender in the Eastern Altepa Desert, I noticed that the Killer Effects build had a very potent effect, and without parsing it (not yet anyway) I felt that approximately half of his attacks were intimidated. Most likely the intimidation cap is 50%, unless we show otherwise in the future.

But now, on the other hand, when I used the same Plantoid Killer build against Pancimanci I noticed it wasn`t nearly as effective - was I just unlucky? I also tried, for the lulz, to use a Bird Killer set against that new Colibri VWNM, Yalungur, and it felt very unfair that even with what should`ve been 50% Killer Effects, he was still hitting me the vast majority of the time!

I put on my Plantoid Killer effects gear and picked a fight with Ghillie Dhu (a sapling NM in Konschtat Highlands, approx. level 30) to parse Intimidation Rate versus an Impossible to Gauge foe. My gear was the following:

Guttler / Tatami Shield / Killer Shortbow / ___
Monster Helm +2 / Wiglen Gorget / Vermin Earring / Brutal Earring
Ferine Gausape +2 / Brego Gloves / Paguroidea Ring / Sheltered Ring
Atheling Mantle / Pipilaka Belt / Ferine Quijotes +2 / Ferine Ocreae +2

I used MailbusterCetas and ate Wizard Cookies - and I only parsed samples during the 3min 55sec Killer Instinct duration, so all data is with 59% Killer Effects.

316 intimidation procs from a 973 sample size is 32.5% proc rate. So either Killer Effects` intimidation rate is halved (hmm) or there`s an intimidation rate cap of 33%ish on NMs. Gonna parse on Sabotenders next, with the same 59% Killer Effect build to see if the cap on regular mobs is 50%.
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#48 Mar 28 2012 at 10:42 AM Rating: Good
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I would parse a mob in abyssea w/ tons of regen
I would also try parsing something higher level than you.

It might just be NM's
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#49 Mar 28 2012 at 10:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Just finished a parse with 59% Plantoid Killer against a Sabotender:

364 intimidation procs out of 700 samples, so 52% proc rate against regular mobs. So intimidation rate is capped at 50% on non-NMs.

Edit:
Xilk wrote:
I would parse a mob in abyssea w/ tons of regen
I would also try parsing something higher level than you.

It might just be NM's


Hmm, I`m not sure if I understand what you mean. The entire point of this comparison is NM vs. non-NM behaviour with regards to intimidation proc rate. What would Abyssea mobs or high level mobs show me?

Edit2: Did an augmented Killer Effects test on Raskovnik in Aby-Konschtat using Cloudsplitter (since it was Lightsday, didn`t bother with Primal Rend). I used VV, Sea Daughter and MC atmas and had MailbusterCetas and Wizard Cookies once again.

300% TP Cloudsplitter damage on Raskovnik:

Regular Cloudsplitter - 1213 dmg
Killer Instinct - 1340 dmg (+9.9% dmg)
Killer Instinct and Ferine Gausape +2 w/Killer Effects +50% - 1554 dmg (only 16.5% higher than the Killer Instinct damage? o_o The expected damage increase was +25%...)

So wait, shouldn't that third test value be closer to 1700 dmg? Yeah, it`s lower because the bonus from killer effects capped at 33% so you only get a 16.5% damage boost, rather than the full 25%.

So versus regular mobs Killer Effects cap at 50%.
And versus NMs Killer Effects cap at 33%. See the below edit.

Edit3: Ok, did some more data collection on the test server using brews on the Treant NM, Mielikki, in Aby-Attohwa.

Brewed 300% Primal Rend damage on Mielikki (Base Primal Rend was 29654):
                          Damage       Expected     Actual     Actual Damage 
                          Bonus %       Damage      Damage       Bonus % 
Killer Instinct            15%          34102       32338          9.9% 
Killer Effects +32%        16%          34398       32805         10.5% 
Killer Effects +44%        22%          36177       32938         14.5% 
Killer Instinct            38%          40922       37409         25.1% 
+ Killer Effects +47% 
Killer Instinct            44%          42701       38402         29.0% 
+ Killer Effects +50%

Whatever bonus damage was expected to be applied to the brewed Primal Rend damage was cut to 2/3rds potency on Mielikki.

So in terms of my intimidation rate parses earlier, my 50% intimidation rate was cut down to 33% on Notorious Monster targets because of this game mechanic. My original conclusion was incorrect - it`s not that killer effects cap at 33% on NMs per se, but rather, whatever your killer effects bonus is, it will be slashed by 1/3rd when you deal damage, take damage, or intimidate an NM.

Edited, Mar 30th 2012 3:31pm by Bookmarku
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#50 Mar 28 2012 at 11:54 PM Rating: Good
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Khamsin on BG today reported that he saw no improvement of his damage or intimidations when using Yuly against Treants and Funguars in Dynamis - Valkurm. What is that about? Have you guys intimidated anything in Dynamis?
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#51 Mar 29 2012 at 5:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Huh, that's bizarre! Gonna look into this... :o
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