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Killer Instict is up for Enhancement ~ very niceFollow

#1 Jan 24 2012 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
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Also, in regards to beastmaster’s ability “Killer Instinct,” we are planning to revamp the merit points as outlined below. As we have just begun to look into this there is a high chance it might change.

Current:
Effect duration: 1 minute
Recast time: 15 minutes
Each merit point reduces the recast timer by 2 minutes 30 seconds

Adjustment plan:
Effect duration: 3 minutes
Recast time: 5 minutes
Each merit point increases the Killer effect +2

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/19949-Adjustments-to-Circle-type-Job-Abilities?p=267343#post267343

I really hope they don't change this idea before they implement it.

A 5 min recast, 3 min duration makes this Tremendously more useful. It means you can keep that damage boost up 60% of the time instead of the previous 20% of the time at best.

Also, Gausape means that BST are double dipping on the killer effect boost.
+15 killer effect boost is standard, if they add 2/additinal merit it would be another +8. so +23 Killer effect for 60% of the time instead of the current best of potentially 20% of the time.

Well, we have +10 from our tier 2 killer effects already. (+8 from tier 1). 5x killer effects merits means +5. So, we would get +38 killer effect using merits and NO GEAR.
I keep killer shortbow on which would bring me up to a normal +40 killer effects. (monster helm +2 for another +5 killer effects in primal rend or maybe other WS's).

Thats +20% damage. which is separate from the +15% built into the circle effect already. I still have questions about how these interact. My last test showed +40% damage when using +37 killer effect and the +15% to damage from killer instinct.

It looks alot easier to keep an almost capped killer effects+ trait (caps at +50) and keep them up much longer.

Just making the recast a base 5 min and the duration 3 min, means we can get a big damage boost alot of the time w/ the right pet. Adding killer effects (better than current tier 1 killer effect boost) to this will make it that much better.

Either way it gives us a large damage boost. We are in a position to take much better advantageof this that other jobs getting their circle effects buffed. They only have killer for 1 mob family each(arcana, dragon, undead, demon) We have 7 mob families.

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#2 Jan 25 2012 at 2:41 AM Rating: Good
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They multiply together. I agree that it is a substantial buff!
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/103222-Dev-Tracker-%283-8-2011%29?p=5014113&viewfull=1#post5014113
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#3 Jan 25 2012 at 7:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Byrthnoth wrote:


thanx. yeah, I actually had that cleared up before, but forgot. sleepy brain going too many directions.
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#4 Jan 25 2012 at 9:12 PM Rating: Default
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Too bad it will only work against lizards. If you're DD'ing, you're using shasra, lulush, or hobs, so you're only giving lizard killer circle. So it's still pretty crappy.

It never should have been your pet's killer effect, but should have been all your killer effects. That's what keeps it worthless.
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#5 Jan 25 2012 at 9:58 PM Rating: Good
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louispv wrote:
Too bad it will only work against lizards. If you're DD'ing, you're using shasra, lulush, or hobs, so you're only giving lizard killer circle. So it's still pretty crappy.

It never should have been your pet's killer effect, but should have been all your killer effects. That's what keeps it worthless.


nonsense. I carry lots of jugs around with me. most are quite acceptable dd (gerard and raphie being the exceptions). I really should test out Louise and Julio since the update... I have the jugs sitting in satchel, and I'm sure no one has bothered and most probably haven't remembered...

The only family we don't have a good option for at level 99 is an aquan. need a fish or something to take intimidate those amorphs away.

besides, this is also exactly the kind of place an experienced bst can show their worth vs a bandwagon bst.

Edited, Jan 25th 2012 10:59pm by Xilk
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#6 Jan 25 2012 at 11:55 PM Rating: Good
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This is a pretty nice buff for all of those Dynamis Valkurm farmers. If you're using yuly, you'll be able to take advantage of this on the DC treant and funguar rotation (or goobbues if its too crowded).
#7 Jan 26 2012 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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Don't forget Gerard has corrosive ooze which is a huge damage boost to everyone in the alliance if you are fighting tougher mobs.
#8 Jan 27 2012 at 3:48 AM Rating: Default
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Xilk wrote:
louispv wrote:
Too bad it will only work against lizards. If you're DD'ing, you're using shasra, lulush, or hobs, so you're only giving lizard killer circle. So it's still pretty crappy.

It never should have been your pet's killer effect, but should have been all your killer effects. That's what keeps it worthless.


nonsense. I carry lots of jugs around with me. most are quite acceptable dd (gerard and raphie being the exceptions). I really should test out Louise and Julio since the update... I have the jugs sitting in satchel, and I'm sure no one has bothered and most probably haven't remembered...

The only family we don't have a good option for at level 99 is an aquan. need a fish or something to take intimidate those amorphs away.

besides, this is also exactly the kind of place an experienced bst can show their worth vs a bandwagon bst.

Edited, Jan 25th 2012 10:59pm by Xilk


Except all those jugs have absolutely terrible damage. Dapper mac, merle, raphie, anna, louise, julio, cetas and fargann all do even more pitiful damage than yuly, nazuna's capped out at 86, and falcor is just meh. (if he decides to triple attack a lot he's almost as good as the beasts, but that's unreliable, and look at that price...) Gerard's damage is also terrible, slow isn't needed on anything but NM's, and you can't use corrosive ooze but once every 3 minutes, restricting him to a NM only jug.

You could perhaps get away with using seighard to get vermin killer, he's weaker than the others but not by too much, but when does a group ever fight vermin?

It should be the master's killer effects like all other circle effects. Otherwise, for anything but lizards, your bonus damage will be canceled out by the massive damage loss of an inferior pet. I suppose it could be useful to also boost your party, but I'm having a hard time picking out any NM or EXP camp other than bluffalos that we can even intimidate. EXP parties seem to favor sand sweepers, or some variety of squishy detector, and all the nasty NM's you need a boost on are demons/dragons/undead/arcana/ uncategorized.

Edited, Jan 27th 2012 4:50am by louispv
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Maybe if we wait long enough, he'll tell us about how he walked barefoot uphill through snow both ways in Uleregand and defeated the evil Snoll Tzar with nothing but a stack of pebbles. Men were men back then. Mithra were men, too, but they don't talk about that.

Mellowy is awesome, now.
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I'm sorry. My hoovercraft is full of Summoners. As soon as I claim a thread, they just flood out and cover the whole place. Slippery suckers, those Summoners.
#9 Jan 27 2012 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
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my aren't you positive...

and your wrong. you're spouting unqualified negative drivel.

you deliberately ignoring or just didn't catch it? julio's attack speed has been increased and they fixed louise. (had stats from previous funguar).

So how sucky are they now? oh! thats right, no one has even bothered to check.

you don't even know how the dd on the pets really compares.
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#10 Jan 27 2012 at 9:28 AM Rating: Decent
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And Nazuna is level 99 if you've finished and augmented your relic hands.
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#11 Jan 27 2012 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
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also Louise was never too bad. Not quite as good as the bunny but I loved using her anyway. Only thing is/was she is hard to get from the AH. Also I'd like to see the parses done on overall damage with boost from Killer Instinct before folks declare it isn't worth using anything but a tiger or w/e

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#12 Jan 27 2012 at 8:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus wrote:
also Louise was never too bad. Not quite as good as the bunny but I loved using her anyway. Only thing is/was she is hard to get from the AH. Also I'd like to see the parses done on overall damage with boost from Killer Instinct before folks declare it isn't worth using anything but a tiger or w/e


if you have +40% damage from killer instinct (which I have already done w/out the addition +8 killer effects SE described) and you keep it up 3/5 of the time, then its an overall +24% damage for master. easy calculation there.

That is a big bonus. Next is to check if any pet makes up that different on the mob in question.

Edited, Jan 27th 2012 9:59pm by Xilk
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#13 Jan 27 2012 at 9:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Xilk wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
also Louise was never too bad. Not quite as good as the bunny but I loved using her anyway. Only thing is/was she is hard to get from the AH. Also I'd like to see the parses done on overall damage with boost from Killer Instinct before folks declare it isn't worth using anything but a tiger or w/e


if you have +40% damage from killer instinct (which I have already done w/out the addition +8 killer effects SE described) and you keep it up 3/5 of the time, then its an overall +24% damage for master. easy calculation there.

That is a big bonus. Next is to check if any pet makes up that different on the mob in question.

Edited, Jan 27th 2012 9:59pm by Xilk



Edit:
Actually, this gets me thinking of another way to compare pets that may be more useful.
I think I'm going to start collecting parses of pet performance. I think there are a few here interested in this. If we just agree upon a few benchmarks like level level of prey mob and defense, we could gather some parses and determine some benchmark comparisons for jug pet attack and def. compare them to mid-range def and high def mobs and see how the dd output is.

I would only want to collect data on level 99 pets. I would want the level range of the prey and defense range also. and then just aggregate stuff for each jug. That might be a simpler approach to it. using a parser is something many of us use.

Please let me know if you have good ideas for benchmark standards, mobs, or data organization methods.
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#14 Jan 31 2012 at 8:12 PM Rating: Default
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Xilk wrote:
my aren't you positive...

and your wrong. you're spouting unqualified negative drivel.

you deliberately ignoring or just didn't catch it? julio's attack speed has been increased and they fixed louise. (had stats from previous funguar).


Julio had double normal attack delay before the adjustment, and they lowered it to normal delay. He is still @#%^ing terrible. The fungaur is still crap. It has to double attack to do the damage of a single hit from hobs, and it's ws's do less damage.

Quote:
So how sucky are they now? oh! thats right, no one has even bothered to check.

you don't even know how the dd on the pets really compares.


If "Nobody" has checked, I guess that means you haven't either. Cause the half a stack of both sitting in my mog house since that update tells me that I have checked, and they were terrible. They were terrible fighting low EP's for trials, they were terrible against NM's in sky, and they were terrible in abyssea.

Each new round of pets have been stronger than the older ones. Hobs is a better lulush, shasra is a better clyvonne, gerard is a better fargann, falcor is a better yuly. Even mac is a better merle, though our MNK jugs have always blown. The difference is huge and obvious even to the naked eye. If your argument depends on using the old pets, and the old pets are so obviously worse than the new ones, then you are weakening yourself to give yourself a buff. Just ask SMN how well avatar's favor worked out on that front.



Edited, Jan 31st 2012 9:30pm by louispv
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Maybe if we wait long enough, he'll tell us about how he walked barefoot uphill through snow both ways in Uleregand and defeated the evil Snoll Tzar with nothing but a stack of pebbles. Men were men back then. Mithra were men, too, but they don't talk about that.

Mellowy is awesome, now.
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I'm sorry. My hoovercraft is full of Summoners. As soon as I claim a thread, they just flood out and cover the whole place. Slippery suckers, those Summoners.
#15 Jan 31 2012 at 9:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Except pet damage is only a small part of overall damage on anything worthwhile. The extra damage from killer instinct will blow away the difference in pet damage.
#16 Jan 31 2012 at 9:33 PM Rating: Default
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darkhorror wrote:
Except pet damage is only a small part of overall damage on anything worthwhile. The extra damage from killer instinct will blow away the difference in pet damage.


Except we will get no damage bonus at all on anything worthwhile, because 90% of worthwhile content, we don't get killer effects for. Maybe you could use it for Kaggen, Qilin and.... nightmare mandies? That's pretty much it.
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Maybe if we wait long enough, he'll tell us about how he walked barefoot uphill through snow both ways in Uleregand and defeated the evil Snoll Tzar with nothing but a stack of pebbles. Men were men back then. Mithra were men, too, but they don't talk about that.

Mellowy is awesome, now.
Quote:
I'm sorry. My hoovercraft is full of Summoners. As soon as I claim a thread, they just flood out and cover the whole place. Slippery suckers, those Summoners.
#17 Feb 06 2012 at 6:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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well if you don't get killer effects on the prey you don't have to worry about not using your best jug... so sh^t is situational, amirite? I am quick to complain but even I won't complain about a buff to one of our JA, even if it does take some juggling to make use of it.
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#18 Feb 16 2012 at 7:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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doh, looks like SE realized what player recognized immediately on this killer instinct announcment.

They are changing their proposed specs for it ;.;)
we are getting baranced.

they are reducing recast to 5 min, but not increasing duration.
They switched the additional merits to extending duration instead of increasing the killer effect. so max duration w/ 5/5 merits would be 1:40...

on the plus side, the feral howl adjustment is all improvment...
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#19 Feb 16 2012 at 7:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Xilk wrote:
doh, looks like SE realized what player recognized immediately on this killer instinct announcment.

They are changing their proposed specs for it ;.;)
we are getting baranced.

they are reducing recast to 5 min, but not increasing duration.
They switched the additional merits to extending duration instead of increasing the killer effect. so max duration w/ 5/5 merits would be 1:40...

on the plus side, the feral howl adjustment is all improvment...


Dang, the killer effect adjustment would've been nice...

One thing that I wonder (because it's not explicitly stated, but it would coincide with every other Circle JA adjustment) is will they follow through with the increase from 1min to 3min in terms of basic duration? I feel like having 4 minutes out of every 5 with Killer Effect Circle potential screams insta-5/5 for me and my playstyle. If they leave it at 1 minute, though... ; ;

As for Feral Howl, 20% more accuracy actually doesn't appeal to me. I'll miss the extended duration with Monster Jackcoat+2, but it lands almost all the time on EP~DC mobs anyway. HMMMM~ I mean, this isn't gonna make it land on worthwhile NMs, so I... dunno. XD I predict it's gonna be a claiming tool/Dynamis proc still. And an occasional stun when you're doing Magian Trials or something, haha.

Hey, here's another question, if they had kept the old Killer Instinct adjustment model, do you think that the +8 Killer Effect at 5/5 would've applied to just the Beastmaster, or to all affected party members? I was never clear on that. :o

Looking at this new outline... what are you gonna merit?

Edit: I just read your comments on FFXIAH and the Official Forums - does Feral Howl miss that often on EPs for you? Maybe I have crazy luck, cause it lands at least 95% of the time for me. Even when I did like 50 Feral Howls in a row when testing the Monster Jackcoat+2 on EM~T Bluffalo, it landed 100% of the time. I never had to repeat a test because of Feral Howl accuracy.

I feel like some mobs are more prone to it than others though... I didn't think it would be so effective against Skeleton-type mobs, but it pretty much always lands on them, too. Trying to think of a mob type that it doesn't work that well on... Does it land on UFOs? Well, anyway...

Edited, Feb 16th 2012 9:05am by Bookmarku
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#20 Feb 16 2012 at 8:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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I will probably still merit killer instinct and drop feral howl (which has been my plan since the announcment), but I've made a feedback thread on SE forums asking to get it back to 3 min duration.
if its 15 seconds from monster helm +2 and 40 seconds from additional merits, you can still get a 1:55 duration out of it.
~ 2/5 of the time you can keep it up. which is still a really great dd boost. We will still be able to boost up to +40% damage for that duration.

I was really paying attention to my feral howl during my last couple dynamis runs. I guess I should count the numbers to do a better job, but even on ep's it was only landing maybe 50% of the time... I don't mean proc, i mean just not MISS. it has some significant -acc going on...
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#21 Feb 16 2012 at 8:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Xilk wrote:
I will probably still merit killer instinct and drop feral howl (which has been my plan since the announcment), but I've made a feedback thread on SE forums asking to get it back to 3 min duration.
if its 15 seconds from monster helm +2 and 40 seconds from additional merits, you can still get a 1:55 duration out of it.
~ 2/5 of the time you can keep it up. which is still a really great dd boost. We will still be able to boost up to +40% damage for that duration.

I was really paying attention to my feral howl during my last couple dynamis runs. I guess I should count the numbers to do a better job, but even on ep's it was only landing maybe 50% of the time... I don't mean proc, i mean just not MISS. it has some significant -acc going on...


Ah, I edited my last post asking you about Feral Howl. :D Thanks for the reply.~

Do you solo Dynamis? Or do you party with other folks who are DNC main and/or DNC subjob? The reason I ask is because Feral Howl won't work during Violent Flourish's stun duration. I always curse my duo partner (and slap my own wrist) when I Feral Howl right when he VFs, because it will miss 100% of the time if the mob is already stunned by any means.

Likewise, a terror'd mob can't be stunned by Violent Flourish (though in this case, you can at least PROC with VF on a Feral Howled mob).

Edit: If I'm wrong in my assumption about your Dynamis partying situation and your knowledge of VF/FH interaction, my apologies - it could be that we just have very different Feral Howl experiences. o _o

Edit2: Those translations that were posted on BG, which gave us insight into the Relic+2 enhancements, hinted that the Killer Instinct boost was +4 seconds per merit. Anyone able to confirm that it's a 20 second extension at 5/5 with Monster Helm +2?

Edited, Feb 16th 2012 10:21am by Bookmarku
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#22 Feb 16 2012 at 11:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thanks for double checking Falkirk.

I did see that translation on bg but forgot about it. Thank you for the reminder. I haven't actually finished the xp trial on my head on live server.

As far as my dynamis playing patterns... sometimes i solo and sometimes I go in duo/trio's.. but I think you hit the nail on the head.

I didn't know that about stun vs terror. I think that will make a big difference in my use of it. I've been getting complete fails on feral howl because of exactly that, usually using it on an already stunned mobs.

I dont' know if it will affect my choice of Killer instinct vs Feral Howl now. I've been sitting at 5/5 feral howl, 3/5 killer instinct & 2/5 Beast Healer for awhile now. I am sure that after the killer instinct adjustment I'll want 5/5 on those merits. I'm not sure whether I'll probably take them from Feral howl now. If the acc isn't a huge issue, I might keep 1/5 feral howl (since recast will remain 5 min) then 4/5 beast healer.


I will say i had a really cool proc the other day. I was fighting tigers in qufim, and used spiral spin to proc it. Fortuitously another not-yet-aggressive-recently-just-respawned tiger ws walking behind it and I proc'd both with Spiral Spin.
This is perhaps the first double proc I've seen on an AoE since they nerfed it. glad to know it can still happen.
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#23 Feb 18 2012 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Xilk wrote:
I will say i had a really cool proc the other day. I was fighting tigers in qufim, and used spiral spin to proc it. Fortuitously another not-yet-aggressive-recently-just-respawned tiger ws walking behind it and I proc'd both with Spiral Spin.
This is perhaps the first double proc I've seen on an AoE since they nerfed it. glad to know it can still happen.


Haha, wicked, I love when those happen.

You guys probably already saw this, but someone on the official forums pointed out that the omitted duration info was edited into the BST Job Adjustments Community Rep post.

"Duration increased from one minute to three. (revised February 17)"

So 4 mins out of every 5, with capped merits and enhanced Monster headpiece. :)

Edited, Feb 18th 2012 5:43pm by Bookmarku
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#24 Feb 19 2012 at 1:54 AM Rating: Good
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Technically it'll be 3:40/5, but yeah. =p That's awesome!
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#25 Feb 19 2012 at 6:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Technically it'll be 3:40/5, but yeah. =p That's awesome!


Yes, you're right. :D 3:40 with 5/5 merits.

Monster Helm +2 is now one of my favorite relic pieces, lawl. Bumping that to 4 minute duration is so awesome. ; ; <3

Edited, Feb 19th 2012 8:50am by Bookmarku
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#26 Feb 19 2012 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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Bookmarku wrote:
Byrthnoth wrote:
Technically it'll be 3:40/5, but yeah. =p That's awesome!


Yes, you're right. :D 3:40 with 5/5 merits.

Monster Helm +2 is now one of my favorite relic pieces, lawl. Bumping that to 4 minute duration is so awesome. ; ; <3

Edited, Feb 19th 2012 8:50am by Bookmarku



my thoughts exactly. 4/5 of the time having killer instinct up is FANTASTIC! Looks like an overal 25% boost in damage. w/ a few spikes depending on killer effects gear.

2 more runs of dyna valkurm for xp on head piece and that trial will be done.

Edited, Feb 19th 2012 5:18pm by Xilk
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