**Forums**- FFXI Jobs
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- Now that we have AF3+2, Exact Killer + testing.

Scholar

1,146 posts

I would like to get a list together of the exact killer+ effect we get on each piece of gear and food. Now that we have our AF3+2 we can do this( for every 2 killer+ we get +1% damage done). So far this is what I have tested, I would really like to see what some more exotic food might do.

Enchances all

Killer Bow: +2 killer effect

flawless ribbon: +1

Undead Killer

Exorcist Hose: +2

Marinara Pizza: +5

Plantoid Killer

Ginger Cookie: +10

Wizard Cookie: +12

Pipilaka Belt: +5

Lizard Killer

Goblin Chocolate: +10

Bison Steak: +5

Panther Mask: +5

Enchances all

Killer Bow: +2 killer effect

flawless ribbon: +1

Undead Killer

Exorcist Hose: +2

Marinara Pizza: +5

Plantoid Killer

Ginger Cookie: +10

Wizard Cookie: +12

Pipilaka Belt: +5

Lizard Killer

Goblin Chocolate: +10

Bison Steak: +5

Panther Mask: +5

Sage

983 posts

If you're still interested in this, I added everything I could get my hands on to bgwiki. I'm still missing a few obscure pieces of food and the level 50~55 Garrison Killer earrings, along with the Maze Monger weapons.

Yay for Jhereg! Sage

2,098 posts

hmmm what wer those had armor that was added in one of the recent update that had killer effects... was it plant killer or bird killer... can't rmember.

90BST|90BLU

LS: MONSTERSINC

Choh Moui | Rongo-Nango | Lhu Mhakaracca | Lungo-Nango | Nyumomo

--Beastmaster Forever--

Sage

983 posts

Melaco Mittens? They're +5.

I'm mostly missing pieces of gear that BST can't wear and the level 50/55 earrings.

Vermin Killer - Insect/Vermin Slayer,*Kogglemander*/Zonure

Bird Killer - Fowling Earring

Amorph Killer - Done~!

Lizard Killer - Scheherazade/Ermine's Tail

Aquan Killer - Admiral's Shield, Aquan/Marine Slayer,*Epsilon Earring* (in Salvage)

Plantoid Killer -*Barkborer*/Eventreuce, *Epsilon Earring* (in Salvage)

Beast Killer - Vendetta/Onishibari/Zaide, General's/Koenig/Kaiser Shield, Beast Slayer,*Rogue Riceball* with enhancing gear/atma on (I haven't been able to find one)

Demon Killer - Demon/Devil Slayer, Staurobow/+1,*Sanctus Rosary, Dragon Steak, Red Curry, Hellsteak/+1?, Dragon Soup, Atma of ****'s Guardian*

Dragon Killer - Hrotti, Dragon/Wyrm Slayer, Bahamut's Mask, Oneiros Cape,*Hellsteak/+1?*

Undead Killer -*Esquire's Mantle*, Vampiric Mitts, Templar Mace

Arcana Killer - Messhikimaru,*Naval Rice Ball*

Italicized means BST can wear it.

SE has been pretty consistent with killer effects across groups. If we could test one earring (both ways) and one Maze Mongers weapon (Koggle or Barkborer), it would knock a lot of the list out. I can also probably eliminate Shrimp Cracker/+1, Byakko's Axe, and Seiryu's Sword without even testing them because they're party of "families" that we already know the value for.

*Edited, Feb 4th 2012 6:28pm by Byrthnoth *

*Edited, Feb 10th 2012 3:21am by Byrthnoth *

Yay for Jhereg! I'm mostly missing pieces of gear that BST can't wear and the level 50/55 earrings.

Vermin Killer - Insect/Vermin Slayer,

Bird Killer - Fowling Earring

Amorph Killer - Done~!

Lizard Killer - Scheherazade/Ermine's Tail

Aquan Killer - Admiral's Shield, Aquan/Marine Slayer,

Plantoid Killer -

Beast Killer - Vendetta/Onishibari/Zaide, General's/Koenig/Kaiser Shield, Beast Slayer,

Demon Killer - Demon/Devil Slayer, Staurobow/+1,

Dragon Killer - Hrotti, Dragon/Wyrm Slayer, Bahamut's Mask, Oneiros Cape,

Undead Killer -

Arcana Killer - Messhikimaru,

Italicized means BST can wear it.

SE has been pretty consistent with killer effects across groups. If we could test one earring (both ways) and one Maze Mongers weapon (Koggle or Barkborer), it would knock a lot of the list out. I can also probably eliminate Shrimp Cracker/+1, Byakko's Axe, and Seiryu's Sword without even testing them because they're party of "families" that we already know the value for.

Guru

268 posts

Byrthnoth wrote:

SE has been pretty consistent with killer effects across groups. If we could test one earring (both ways) and one Maze Mongers weapon (Koggle or Barkborer), it would knock a lot of the list out. I can also probably eliminate Shrinp Cracker/+1, Byakko's Axe, and Seiryu's Sword without even testing them because they're party of "families" that we already know the value for.

The Killer Effects testing in the BG Random Facts Thread is awesome. :D I double-checked some of'em when I was testing Vermin Earring, and I got identical results on pretty much everything.

Bibiki Seashell: 960 without, 979 with Seashell (+2% dmg increase), 988 with Shell+Trousers+1 (+3% dmg increase, proving it was at an odd Killer Effect number)

Another item confirmed then. XD

With regards to Bird Killer effects, do you think there's a possible cookie/cracker that has a Bird Killer bonus that we haven't found yet...? :) I think every other BST killer trait has a food associated with it.

Some other tested items that I cooked up:

Tested the Aquan Killer food on Slashers:

Acorn Cookie (NQ Food): Duration 3 mins, 1026 without, 1075 with (5% damage boost, so +10 Aquan Killer)

Wild Cookie (HQ Food): Duration 5 mins, 1026 without, 1085 with (6% damage boost, so +12 Aquan Killer)

Tested the Beast Killer food on Limestone Hares:

Spicy Cracker (NQ Food): Duration 3 mins, 1016 without, 1069 with (5% damage boost, so +10 Beast Killer)

Red Hot Cracker (HQ Food): Duration 5 mins, 1016 without, 1078 with (6% damage boost, so +12 Beast Killer)

Tested the Plantoid Killer food on Highland Treants:

Wizard Cookie (HQ Food): Duration 5 mins, 1193 without, 1263 with (6% damage boost, so +12 Plantoid Killer)

Tested the Undead Killer food on Bog Body:

Garlic Cracker (NQ Food): Duration 3 mins, 3168 without, 3326 with (5% damage boost, so +10 Undead Killer)

It's all basically what you'd expect.

Another Edit: Did some Demon Killer testing with Sanctus Rosary and Hellsteak, targeting Gruesome Gargouille in Vunkerl[A]:

Sanctus Rosary: 1040 without, 1050 with (1% damage boost, so +2 Demon Killer)

Hellsteak: 1033 without, 1033 with (didn't detect any damage increase with this food, and no sign of any intimidation procs after an hour of testing)

With regards to Dragon Killer effect however (tested on Peapuks):

Hellsteak: 1184 dmg without, 1179 dmg with (This made no sense to me, but I triple-checked my numbers, and I thought I was on the right track with this one because there were a number of intimidation procs going on at the same time...)

99BST

Sage

983 posts

If you are on the test server, you can get a Flawless Ribbon (+1 to all killer effects) in order to easily test every non-head-slot for odd/even.

Yay for Jhereg! Guru

268 posts

Byrthnoth wrote:

If you are on the test server, you can get a Flawless Ribbon (+1 to all killer effects) in order to easily test every non-head-slot for odd/even.

Oh nice, do they hand those out for free on the test server? :o That would help a lot.

Some of these items like the Sanctus Rosary and Hellsteak, I don't think I have those on my test server account. ; ;

99BST

Sage

983 posts

You can delete and re-migrate your character data to get them, if you want.

Yay for Jhereg! Guru

268 posts

I'm gonna save some ABCs and get that Flawless Ribbon, fo' sho.

Was able to snag some Gold Lobsters on the AH and craft Shrimp Crackers/+1. Tested on Gneiss Leeches:

Shrimp Cracker (NQ food): 3 min duration, 1128 without, 1183 with (5% damage boost, so +10 Amorph Killer)

Shrimp Cracker +1 (HQ food): 5 min duration, 1128 without, 1192 with (6% damage boost, so +12 Amorph Killer)

I did a double check on even/odd with the Beast Trousers+1, but of course these foods all follow the same pattern, and they behaved as predicted when double-checked.

Was able to snag some Gold Lobsters on the AH and craft Shrimp Crackers/+1. Tested on Gneiss Leeches:

Shrimp Cracker (NQ food): 3 min duration, 1128 without, 1183 with (5% damage boost, so +10 Amorph Killer)

Shrimp Cracker +1 (HQ food): 5 min duration, 1128 without, 1192 with (6% damage boost, so +12 Amorph Killer)

I did a double check on even/odd with the Beast Trousers+1, but of course these foods all follow the same pattern, and they behaved as predicted when double-checked.

99BST

Sage

983 posts

The Flawless Ribbon is stored on the Limbus slip, so you can get one for free on the test server.

Edit: I edited my post above to reflect what we've learned. It appears we can kill many many birds by testing one of the weapons from MMM.

*Edited, Feb 4th 2012 6:09am by Byrthnoth *

Yay for Jhereg! Edit: I edited my post above to reflect what we've learned. It appears we can kill many many birds by testing one of the weapons from MMM.

Guru

268 posts

Byrthnoth wrote:

The Flawless Ribbon is stored on the Limbus slip, so you can get one for free on the test server.

Niiiiice, didn't realize that, thanks!

99BST

Sage

983 posts

Added Panther Mask +1 (same killer amount as NQ). I have a friend who did a lot of MMM when it came out, so I will try to get a weapon by going with him.

Naval/Rogue Rice Ball is testable on BST using the Riceball Atma, but they have not sold on my server since 2005. Many of the ones BST cannot use would have to be done by just pulling a crowd of low level monsters of the right type on something/RDM and parsing it.

By the way, the most recent test server update seems to have broken it for me. Is it the same for you?

Yay for Jhereg! Naval/Rogue Rice Ball is testable on BST using the Riceball Atma, but they have not sold on my server since 2005. Many of the ones BST cannot use would have to be done by just pulling a crowd of low level monsters of the right type on something/RDM and parsing it.

By the way, the most recent test server update seems to have broken it for me. Is it the same for you?

Guru

268 posts

Byrthnoth wrote:

Added Panther Mask +1 (same killer amount as NQ).

This makes me sad - more Lizard Killer availability would be nice.

Byrthnoth wrote:

I have a friend who did a lot of MMM when it came out, so I will try to get a weapon by going with him.

Excellent. I'm 0/3 myself, gonna keep saving C.C.s and trying. :)

Byrthnoth wrote:

By the way, the most recent test server update seems to have broken it for me. Is it the same for you?

More sadness - yeah, the test server isn't working for me either. ; ;

99BST

Guru

268 posts

After 10 hours of casket farming in Ro'Maeve (*shakes fist*) and, thankfully, a 1/1 encounter with Mr. Erebus, I now have Diana Corona and Nyx Gorget for Arcana Killer testing. I conducted these on the Spheroids in Mis Coast[A]. [Edit: Oh, and it wasn't a Full Moon, so there was no MAB involved.]

**Diana Corona** testing:

1114 without, 1138 with Diana Corona (2% damage increase, so either +4 or +5 Arcana Killer)

**Nyx Gorget** testing:

1114 without, 1125 with Nyx Gorget (1% damage increase, so either +2 or +3 Arcana Killer)

**Diana Corona+Nyx Gorget** testing:

1114 without, 1160 with Diana Corona+Nyx Gorget (4% damage increase, and the only way to achieve +8 Arcana Killer is if Diana is +5 and Nyx is +3, yes?)

Therefore,

Diana Corona is +5 Arcana Killer effect

Nyx Gorget is +3 Arcana Killer effect

And from this test I would assume that the Sanctus Rosary was Demon Killer +3 (I can test for sure once I can get Flawless Ribbon, either on the test server or main server).

*Edited, Feb 5th 2012 8:26pm by Bookmarku *

1114 without, 1138 with Diana Corona (2% damage increase, so either +4 or +5 Arcana Killer)

1114 without, 1125 with Nyx Gorget (1% damage increase, so either +2 or +3 Arcana Killer)

1114 without, 1160 with Diana Corona+Nyx Gorget (4% damage increase, and the only way to achieve +8 Arcana Killer is if Diana is +5 and Nyx is +3, yes?)

Therefore,

Diana Corona is +5 Arcana Killer effect

Nyx Gorget is +3 Arcana Killer effect

And from this test I would assume that the Sanctus Rosary was Demon Killer +3 (I can test for sure once I can get Flawless Ribbon, either on the test server or main server).

99BST

Sage

983 posts

We went with the harder = higher drop rate rule of thumb in MMM, and allow me to inform you that the monsters there can still be pretty ridiculously tough. Killed a beetle with infinitely high defense on BLU + WAR + DNC + WHM. If it wasn't for the BLU's breaths, it would have been a very long fight.

Yay for Jhereg! Sage

983 posts

Something else to consider... BLU gets Undead, Lizard, Plantoid, and Beast Killer before 49. SE has gimped some of BLU's traits in the past, so it might be worth testing their potency.

Just putting this here so I see it in the future. =P

PS. They fixed the test server.

Yay for Jhereg! Just putting this here so I see it in the future. =P

PS. They fixed the test server.

Sage

9,382 posts

Would the blu traits stack with the bst native traits? I guess even if not could test undead killer anyway since bst doesn't get it natively

lolgaxe wrote:

When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

clicky

Sage

5,649 posts

Olorinus wrote:

Would the blu traits stack with the bst native traits?

I would be very surprised if it did. I can't think of any case where job traits of the same kind from two different jobs are additive.

FFXI veteran (Lyonheart and Lakiskline of Lakshmi)

1/467 on signed HQ Weskit!!!

Sage

9,382 posts

yeah I didn't think so, thanks for the confirmation.

*Edited, Feb 9th 2012 12:22pm by Olorinus *

lolgaxe wrote:

When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

clicky

Guru

268 posts

Cooked up some Walnut Cookies (got a 0.1 skillup too, hoot) and tested them on Frigatebirds in Mis[A] on lightningsday. Only had DA+11% Ganelon and Ferine Gausape +2 equipped for the tests.

No Food - 300% TP Primal Rend did 951

Walnut Cookie - 300% TP Primal Rend did 996 (+5% damage).

So they finally released the Bird Killer food, haha. :)

No Food - 300% TP Primal Rend did 951

Walnut Cookie - 300% TP Primal Rend did 996 (+5% damage).

So they finally released the Bird Killer food, haha. :)

99BST

Sage

2,098 posts

I'm going to have to cook all my own cookies/crackers

none on bahamut ah

last scene... 1 year 2 months ago...

lol

none on bahamut ah

last scene... 1 year 2 months ago...

lol

90BST|90BLU

LS: MONSTERSINC

Choh Moui | Rongo-Nango | Lhu Mhakaracca | Lungo-Nango | Nyumomo

--Beastmaster Forever--

Sage

2,098 posts

A very considerate bst sent me some of the new bird killer+ food

the hq is called Juglan Jumble

the hq is called Juglan Jumble

90BST|90BLU

LS: MONSTERSINC

Choh Moui | Rongo-Nango | Lhu Mhakaracca | Lungo-Nango | Nyumomo

--Beastmaster Forever--

Guru

268 posts

Bookmarku wrote:

And from this test I would assume that the Sanctus Rosary was Demon Killer +3 (I can test for sure once I can get Flawless Ribbon, either on the test server or main server).

And now that I have a Flawless Ribbon, here is some Demon Killer testing... :)

300% TP Cloudsplitter vs. Gruesome Gargouille

Ferine Gausape +2 - 1107

Ferine Gausape +2, Sanctus Rosary - 1118 (+1% damage, so either +2 or +3 Demon Killer)

Ferine Gausape +2, Flawless Ribbon, Sanctus Rosary - 1129 (+2% damage, which means

No Body Armor, Dragon Soup - 1123

Ferine Gausape +2, Dragon Soup - 1145 (+2% damage, so either +4 or +5 Demon Killer)

Ferine Gausape +2, Flawless Ribbon, Dragon Soup - 1156 (+3% damage, so

No Body Armor, Red Curry - 1128

Ferine Gausape +2, Red Curry - 1150 (+2% damage, so either +4 or +5 Demon Killer)

Ferine Gausape +2, Flawless Ribbon, Red Curry - 1150 (+2% damage, so

More numbers:

Ferine Gausape +2, Sanctus Rosary, Red Curry - 1161 (+3% damage - Demon Killer is +7 here)

Ferine Gausape +2, Sanctus Rosary, Flawless Ribbon, Red Curry - 1173 (+4% damage - and Demon Killer is +8 here)

99BST

Sage

983 posts

Cool! Thanks!

Red Curry Buns (and +1) also give Demon Killer. I still don't have an odd source of Demon Killer, so I still can't test them.

Yay for Jhereg! Red Curry Buns (and +1) also give Demon Killer. I still don't have an odd source of Demon Killer, so I still can't test them.

Guru

268 posts

Red Curry buns give the same Demon Killer as Red Curry. :) Edit: Haven't checked the +1 version yet.

And one of the new foods, Smoldering Salisbury Steak, gives Dragon Killer +5%. A friend in my LS noticed it was intimidating Wyverns, so I checked it out on Peapuks in Vunkerl[A].

300% TP Primal Rend vs. Puks:

No Body Armor - 881

Ferine Gausape +2 - 898 (+2% damage, so either +4 or +5 Dragon Killer)

Ferine Gausape +2 and Flawless Ribbon - 907 (+3% damage, so it was +5 Dragon Killer)

*Edited, May 1st 2012 6:21pm by Bookmarku *

And one of the new foods, Smoldering Salisbury Steak, gives Dragon Killer +5%. A friend in my LS noticed it was intimidating Wyverns, so I checked it out on Peapuks in Vunkerl[A].

300% TP Primal Rend vs. Puks:

No Body Armor - 881

Ferine Gausape +2 - 898 (+2% damage, so either +4 or +5 Dragon Killer)

Ferine Gausape +2 and Flawless Ribbon - 907 (+3% damage, so it was +5 Dragon Killer)

99BST

Sage

2,098 posts

I finally got ****'s guardian, so I'll test the demon killer for that soon.

I think its +10 demon killer, but need to make a more controlled test.

I think its +10 demon killer, but need to make a more controlled test.

90BST|90BLU

LS: MONSTERSINC

Choh Moui | Rongo-Nango | Lhu Mhakaracca | Lungo-Nango | Nyumomo

--Beastmaster Forever--

Sage

983 posts

Slight update on this:

Vermin Killer - Insect/Vermin Slayer,*Kogglemander*/Zonure

Bird Killer - Fowling Earring

Amorph Killer - Done~!

Lizard Killer - Scheherazade/Ermine's Tail

Aquan Killer - Admiral's Shield, Aquan/Marine Slayer,*Epsilon Earring* (in Salvage)

Plantoid Killer -*Barkborer*/Eventreuce, *Epsilon Earring* (in Salvage)

Beast Killer - Vendetta/Onishibari/Zaide, General's/Koenig/Kaiser Shield, Beast Slayer,*Rogue Riceball* with enhancing gear/atma on (I haven't been able to find one)

Demon Killer - Demon/Devil Slayer, Staurobow/+1,*Dragon Steak, Red Curry Bun +1*

Dragon Killer - Dragon/Wyrm Slayer, Oneiros Cape,*Hellsteak +1*

Undead Killer -*Esquire's Mantle*, Vampiric Mitts, Templar Mace

Arcana Killer - Messhikimaru,*Naval Rice Ball*

Italicized means BST can wear it.

All Types: Killer's/Eradicator's Kilij

I still haven't managed to get ahold of a MMM weapon. It seems everyone that I knew who actually did the event quit a long time ago and no one wants to put in the time to build Marbles and buy the useful Runes (including myself). I figure testing a single NQ/HQ BLU sword pair would be enough for me to knock them all off the list. If we could eliminate those two sets of items, the list would look like this:

Spoiler Vermin Killer - Done~!

Bird Killer - Fowling Earring

Amorph Killer - Done~!

Lizard Killer - Done~!

Aquan Killer - Admiral's Shield,*Epsilon Earring* (in Salvage)

Plantoid Killer -*Epsilon Earring* (in Salvage)

Beast Killer - Vendetta, General's/Koenig/Kaiser Shield, Beast Slayer,*Rogue Riceball* with enhancing gear/atma on (I haven't been able to find one)

Demon Killer - Staurobow/+1,*Dragon Steak, Red Curry Bun +1*

Dragon Killer - Oneiros Cape,*Hellsteak +1*

Undead Killer -*Esquire's Mantle*, Vampiric Mitts, Templar Mace

Arcana Killer - Messhikimaru,*Naval Rice Ball*

Italicized means BST can wear it.

I have been trying to get Vampiric Boots (and then the plan is to get Vampiric Mitts) but without luck. I'm over 0/40 on them now. I guess I can switch to Mitts and see if I have any more luck there so I can test it.

Yay for Jhereg! Vermin Killer - Insect/Vermin Slayer,

Bird Killer - Fowling Earring

Amorph Killer - Done~!

Lizard Killer - Scheherazade/Ermine's Tail

Aquan Killer - Admiral's Shield, Aquan/Marine Slayer,

Plantoid Killer -

Beast Killer - Vendetta/Onishibari/Zaide, General's/Koenig/Kaiser Shield, Beast Slayer,

Demon Killer - Demon/Devil Slayer, Staurobow/+1,

Dragon Killer - Dragon/Wyrm Slayer, Oneiros Cape,

Undead Killer -

Arcana Killer - Messhikimaru,

Italicized means BST can wear it.

All Types: Killer's/Eradicator's Kilij

I still haven't managed to get ahold of a MMM weapon. It seems everyone that I knew who actually did the event quit a long time ago and no one wants to put in the time to build Marbles and buy the useful Runes (including myself). I figure testing a single NQ/HQ BLU sword pair would be enough for me to knock them all off the list. If we could eliminate those two sets of items, the list would look like this:

Bird Killer - Fowling Earring

Amorph Killer - Done~!

Lizard Killer - Done~!

Aquan Killer - Admiral's Shield,

Plantoid Killer -

Beast Killer - Vendetta, General's/Koenig/Kaiser Shield, Beast Slayer,

Demon Killer - Staurobow/+1,

Dragon Killer - Oneiros Cape,

Undead Killer -

Arcana Killer - Messhikimaru,

Italicized means BST can wear it.

I have been trying to get Vampiric Boots (and then the plan is to get Vampiric Mitts) but without luck. I'm over 0/40 on them now. I guess I can switch to Mitts and see if I have any more luck there so I can test it.

Guru

268 posts

No Body Armor, Red Curry Bun +1 - 1134

Ferine Gausape +2, Red Curry Bun +1 - 1168 (+3% damage, either +6 or +7 Demon Killer)

Ferine Gausape +2, Flawless Ribbon, Red Curry Bun +1 - 1168 (Definitely Demon Killer +6)

No Body Armor, Dragon Steak - 1155

Ferine Gausape +2, Dragon Steak - 1178 (+2% damage, so either +4 or +5 Demon Killer)

Ferine Gausape +2, Flawless Ribbon, Dragon Steak - 1189 (+3% damage - therefore, the Dragon Steak is Demon Killer +5)

No Body Armor, Heallsteak +1 - 1350

Ferine Gausape +2, Hellsteak +1 - 1377 (+2% damage, so either +4 or +5 Dragon Killer)

Ferine Gausape +2, Flawless Ribbon, Hellsteak +1 - 1390 (+3% damage - so the effect of Hellsteak +1 alone is Dragon Killer +5)

99BST

Guru

268 posts

There's a new addition to Meeble Burrows - Palimpsests, in particular the Intimidation variety...

They only offer 2 Killer Effect bonuses, Beast and Vermin, but here's my check on their potency:

**Intimidation Palimpsest** (__Vermin Killer__): 300% TP Cloudsplitters vs. Goldenwing (Adjunct #5 Notorious Monster)

Without Body Armor - 924 DMG

With Ferine Gausape +2 - 979 DMG (+6% damage)

With Ferine Gausape +2 and Beast Trousers +1 and +14 STR - 1001 DMG (+7% damage + 14 from the Boost-STR)

The main complication with doing the test for this boon is that there are basically no other Vermin in any of the Meeble missions (the majority are lizard/amorph). And then there's the fact that Goldenwing is an NM, which means using the idea sorted out in these posts (tl;dr, Killer Effects are chopped to 2/3rds potency against NMs).

When I did my second Cloudsplitter with Ferine Gausape +2 equipped the damage was slightly higher than you would expect with just Vermin Killer II trait + 5 Killer Effect merits (those two alone would've supplied +(15% KE * 0.66 / 2) damage = +4~5% damage). Instead it's more in the range of +(20% KE * 0.66 / 2) damage = +6% damage, assuming that the Palimpsest is approximately 5% Vermin Killer.

It could also be +21% overall Killer Effects (10% trait, 5% merits, 6% Palimpsest), which the Beast Trousers +1 test reveals is the case. I had Boost-STR for that one, though I'm pretty sure +1 STR = +1 Cloudsplitter DMG, yes? And it looks like the extra 1% KE from Beast Trousers +1 pushed me up to a damage bonus of +(22% KE * 0.66 / 2) = +7% damage.

If something seems amiss, let me know, but I'm looking at Palimpsest Killer boons being +6%.

They only offer 2 Killer Effect bonuses, Beast and Vermin, but here's my check on their potency:

Without Body Armor - 924 DMG

With Ferine Gausape +2 - 979 DMG (+6% damage)

With Ferine Gausape +2 and Beast Trousers +1 and +14 STR - 1001 DMG (+7% damage + 14 from the Boost-STR)

The main complication with doing the test for this boon is that there are basically no other Vermin in any of the Meeble missions (the majority are lizard/amorph). And then there's the fact that Goldenwing is an NM, which means using the idea sorted out in these posts (tl;dr, Killer Effects are chopped to 2/3rds potency against NMs).

When I did my second Cloudsplitter with Ferine Gausape +2 equipped the damage was slightly higher than you would expect with just Vermin Killer II trait + 5 Killer Effect merits (those two alone would've supplied +(15% KE * 0.66 / 2) damage = +4~5% damage). Instead it's more in the range of +(20% KE * 0.66 / 2) damage = +6% damage, assuming that the Palimpsest is approximately 5% Vermin Killer.

It could also be +21% overall Killer Effects (10% trait, 5% merits, 6% Palimpsest), which the Beast Trousers +1 test reveals is the case. I had Boost-STR for that one, though I'm pretty sure +1 STR = +1 Cloudsplitter DMG, yes? And it looks like the extra 1% KE from Beast Trousers +1 pushed me up to a damage bonus of +(22% KE * 0.66 / 2) = +7% damage.

If something seems amiss, let me know, but I'm looking at Palimpsest Killer boons being +6%.

99BST

Sage

983 posts

300 TP Cloudsplitter is 6 fTP without fTP boosting gear (gorget/belt), which I assume you weren't using because your base one was 924 damage (154 base damage). It has no fINT, which makes it great for these tests. It also is 40% STR / 40% MND.

+14 STR is +4 or +5 base damage depending on your initial strength, so we'd expect +24 or +30 damage with 6 fTP.

14*.4 = 5.6, so it will give 5 or 6 base damage before level correction

5*.85 = 4.25, so 4 base damage

6*.85 = 5.10, so 5 base damage

4*6 fTP = 24 damage

5*6 fTP = 30 damage

(924+24)*1.06 = 1004

(924+30)*1.06 = 1011

This means we'd expect a minimum of 1004 damage even if Beast Trousers +1 didn't increase your base damage. I suspect something else changed here. What pants were you using before you switched to Beast Trousers +1?

1001/1.07 = +3 base damage (936 damage)

1001/1.06 = +3.5 base damage (945 damage) : Doesn't really work out.

I'd conclude that it is +7% damage in the Beast Trousers case because +6% damage doesn't work out cleanly, but something else must have changed. Do you use Hrafn Hose normally or something?

edit: Actually, upon closer examination I see that the Palimpset also has WS damage Bonus attached to it, which means that the base case being divisible by 6 must have just been luck. In this case you'd expect base damage changes to be multiplied further, which makes the seemingly low base damage in the final case all-the-more confusing.

*Edited, Dec 29th 2012 11:37pm by Byrthnoth *

Yay for Jhereg! +14 STR is +4 or +5 base damage depending on your initial strength, so we'd expect +24 or +30 damage with 6 fTP.

14*.4 = 5.6, so it will give 5 or 6 base damage before level correction

5*.85 = 4.25, so 4 base damage

6*.85 = 5.10, so 5 base damage

4*6 fTP = 24 damage

5*6 fTP = 30 damage

(924+24)*1.06 = 1004

(924+30)*1.06 = 1011

This means we'd expect a minimum of 1004 damage even if Beast Trousers +1 didn't increase your base damage. I suspect something else changed here. What pants were you using before you switched to Beast Trousers +1?

1001/1.07 = +3 base damage (936 damage)

1001/1.06 = +3.5 base damage (945 damage) : Doesn't really work out.

I'd conclude that it is +7% damage in the Beast Trousers case because +6% damage doesn't work out cleanly, but something else must have changed. Do you use Hrafn Hose normally or something?

edit: Actually, upon closer examination I see that the Palimpset also has WS damage Bonus attached to it, which means that the base case being divisible by 6 must have just been luck. In this case you'd expect base damage changes to be multiplied further, which makes the seemingly low base damage in the final case all-the-more confusing.

Guru

268 posts

You're right that I wasn't using any +fTP gear, it was my TP set. ^^

924 Damage Cloudsplitter with no Body Armor (STR 134, MND 89)

979 Damage Cloudsplitter with Ferine Gausape +2 and Avant Cuisses +1 (STR 134, MND 89)

1001 Damage Cloudsplitter with Ferine Gausape +2 and Beast Trousers +1 (STR 148, MND 89)

I don't otherwise know how to explain the low damage. You've obviously displayed a powerful grasp of the formula behind Cloudsplitter! So... would some sort of -DT on Goldenwing explain it? :o And I'm not sure if we had the WS damage+ boon or not... When you trade a Palimpsest to the grimoire you choose which buff you want out of the three options.

924 Damage Cloudsplitter with no Body Armor (STR 134, MND 89)

979 Damage Cloudsplitter with Ferine Gausape +2 and Avant Cuisses +1 (STR 134, MND 89)

1001 Damage Cloudsplitter with Ferine Gausape +2 and Beast Trousers +1 (STR 148, MND 89)

I don't otherwise know how to explain the low damage. You've obviously displayed a powerful grasp of the formula behind Cloudsplitter! So... would some sort of -DT on Goldenwing explain it? :o And I'm not sure if we had the WS damage+ boon or not... When you trade a Palimpsest to the grimoire you choose which buff you want out of the three options.

99BST

Sage

983 posts

Okay, assuming you didn't have the WS damage (you're probably right about this, I've never used one of the palimpsests).

(99+2+WSC)*6 = Base damage

WSC = FLOOR( FLOOR( 0.4*STR + 0.4*MND , 1) * 0.85 , 1)

First two cases: 176 base damage, 1056 damage expected and 924 observed unmodified. This is -12.5% damage, which is a pretty normal magic correction amount. SE loves to give things 1/8 resistance. Putting on Ferine body gives +6% damage as expected.

Last case: 180 base damage, 1080 damage expected and 1001 observed. 12.5% damage reduction from 1080 gives us 945 expected and +6% damage from that gives us 1001 damage. So Beast Trousers +1 did not add any additional damage.

So you start out with (15+X%) Killer potency and get a 6% damage increase. We know that there has to be some kind of NM related adjustment here, but we don't really know what so we can't say the value of X with absolute certainty until the test is repeated without a Palimpsest. However, if you're correct in assuming about 2/3 normal killer potency then we'd be looking at +3~4% from the Palimpsest, right?

(15%+3%)*2/3 = 12%, 12%/2 = 6%

(15%+5%)*2/3 = 13%, 13%/2 = 6% (with beast trousers +1, so 4% base)

If it's 50%, then it could be 9~11%:

(15%+9%)/2 = 12%, 12%/2 = 6%

(15%+12%)/2 = 13%, 13%/2 = 6%

Yay for Jhereg! (99+2+WSC)*6 = Base damage

WSC = FLOOR( FLOOR( 0.4*STR + 0.4*MND , 1) * 0.85 , 1)

First two cases: 176 base damage, 1056 damage expected and 924 observed unmodified. This is -12.5% damage, which is a pretty normal magic correction amount. SE loves to give things 1/8 resistance. Putting on Ferine body gives +6% damage as expected.

Last case: 180 base damage, 1080 damage expected and 1001 observed. 12.5% damage reduction from 1080 gives us 945 expected and +6% damage from that gives us 1001 damage. So Beast Trousers +1 did not add any additional damage.

So you start out with (15+X%) Killer potency and get a 6% damage increase. We know that there has to be some kind of NM related adjustment here, but we don't really know what so we can't say the value of X with absolute certainty until the test is repeated without a Palimpsest. However, if you're correct in assuming about 2/3 normal killer potency then we'd be looking at +3~4% from the Palimpsest, right?

(15%+3%)*2/3 = 12%, 12%/2 = 6%

(15%+5%)*2/3 = 13%, 13%/2 = 6% (with beast trousers +1, so 4% base)

If it's 50%, then it could be 9~11%:

(15%+9%)/2 = 12%, 12%/2 = 6%

(15%+12%)/2 = 13%, 13%/2 = 6%

Guru

268 posts

Byrthnoth wrote:

So you start out with (15+X%) Killer potency and get a 6% damage increase. We know that there has to be some kind of NM related adjustment here, but we don't really know what so we can't say the value of X with absolute certainty until the test is repeated without a Palimpsest. However, if you're correct in assuming about 2/3 normal killer potency then we'd be looking at +3~4% from the Palimpsest, right?

(15%+3%)*2/3 = 12%, 12%/2 = 6%

(15%+5%)*2/3 = 13%, 13%/2 = 6% (with beast trousers +1, so 4% base)

If it's 50%, then it could be 9~11%:

(15%+9%)/2 = 12%, 12%/2 = 6%

(15%+12%)/2 = 13%, 13%/2 = 6%

(15%+3%)*2/3 = 12%, 12%/2 = 6%

(15%+5%)*2/3 = 13%, 13%/2 = 6% (with beast trousers +1, so 4% base)

If it's 50%, then it could be 9~11%:

(15%+9%)/2 = 12%, 12%/2 = 6%

(15%+12%)/2 = 13%, 13%/2 = 6%

I'm pretty confident about the 2/3rd Killer potency! And I think you can extend the possible range of Palimpsest (what an annoying word to type!) effectiveness to +3~5% because even at the maximum potential of that range the Beast Trousers would pump the overall Killer Effects to +21% - and then 21% * 2/3 = 13%, 13%/2 = 6%. I went into the test assuming that the boon would be approximately as effective as food-related killer effects, and 5% is a common one...

So, ok, I'll do the test again someday and I'll get some numbers without the boon in place - and maybe another sample where I push Killer Effects to reach that +7% damage threshold. Thanks for the detailed info, Byrth!

99BST

Sage

983 posts

Well:

21%*2/3 = 14%

14%/2 = 7%

Nice!

Yay for Jhereg! 21%*2/3 = 14%

14%/2 = 7%

Nice!

Guru

268 posts

Oh, I was doing 21 * 0.66 to get 13.86 and then rounding down. :o

99BST

Scholar

309 posts

Bookmarku wrote:

Oh, I was doing 21 * 0.66 to get 13.86 and then rounding down. :o

Using 0.66 is already rounding down :)

BlueLand wrote:

You can always take a screen shot of the 1017 error and set it to your desktop background, its like playing FFXIV from work

Sage

983 posts

Finally got Vampiric Mitts. I took them to Nachzehrers in KRT (no Double Attack), cast Phalanx, and parsed it. 97 intimidations out of ~2000 attacks, or a 5% intimidation rate. It could also technically be 4% (though it's far less likely), but this is good enough for current testing methods.

Yay for Jhereg! Sage

983 posts

Another update:

Vermin Killer - Insect/Vermin Slayer,*Kogglemander*/Zonure

Bird Killer - Done~!

Amorph Killer - Done~!

Lizard Killer - Scheherazade/Ermine's Tail

Aquan Killer - Admiral's Shield, Aquan/Marine Slayer,*Epsilon Earring* (in Salvage)

Plantoid Killer -*Barkborer*/Eventreuce, *Epsilon Earring* (in Salvage)

Beast Killer - Vendetta, Onishibari/Zaide, General's/Koenig/Kaiser Shield,*Rogue Riceball* with enhancing gear/atma on (I haven't been able to find one)

Demon Killer - Demon/Devil Slayer, Staurobow +1

Dragon Killer - Dragon/Wyrm Slayer, Oneiros Cape

Undead Killer -*Esquire's Mantle*

Arcana Killer - Messhikimaru,*Naval Rice Ball*

Italicized means BST can wear it or use it (Riceballs can be used with the Winged Enigma Atma).

All Types: Killer's/Eradicator's Kilij

In addition to Vampiric Mitts, I hammered out Templar Mace (2%), Fowling Earring (3%), and Staurobow NQ (1%). I again checked my LS and found that no one has any significant MMM experience. Port Jeuno shouting was similarly unsuccessful. The two primary classes of things still unknown are BLU swords and MMM weapons. If we get an NQ/HQ BLU sword pair and any of the MMM weapons, I'd fill them all in and call it "good enough." That would eliminate 18 of the 31 remaining untested Killer items.

Edit: I noticed my mule actually has both BLU and Beast Slayer (from the ZNM Qiqirn), so I tested that against Rarabs and found a 15% Beast Killer proc rate. Iirc, that makes it the most potent killer equipment in the game. Unfortunately, I doubt it generalizes to the other weapons. I've heard 4-5% thrown around for the NQ/HQ BLU sword pairs.

I also decided to test BLU job traits. Beast Killer (2 spells) came out at 8% flat (excluded 9%). Beast Killer (4 spells) hung out at 10% for a long time, then drifted down to 9%. I don't know what it's going to do from here, but I've put my mule on "Away" and I'm leaving him in a corner with Rarabs.

Edit 2: It drifted down to 8% flat after over 50,000 swings. Also, I just noticed that Vendetta doesn't come from MMM so I've adjusted the numbers above accordingly.

*Edited, Jan 6th 2013 4:50am by Byrthnoth *

Yay for Jhereg! Vermin Killer - Insect/Vermin Slayer,

Bird Killer - Done~!

Amorph Killer - Done~!

Lizard Killer - Scheherazade/Ermine's Tail

Aquan Killer - Admiral's Shield, Aquan/Marine Slayer,

Plantoid Killer -

Beast Killer - Vendetta, Onishibari/Zaide, General's/Koenig/Kaiser Shield,

Demon Killer - Demon/Devil Slayer, Staurobow +1

Dragon Killer - Dragon/Wyrm Slayer, Oneiros Cape

Undead Killer -

Arcana Killer - Messhikimaru,

Italicized means BST can wear it or use it (Riceballs can be used with the Winged Enigma Atma).

All Types: Killer's/Eradicator's Kilij

In addition to Vampiric Mitts, I hammered out Templar Mace (2%), Fowling Earring (3%), and Staurobow NQ (1%). I again checked my LS and found that no one has any significant MMM experience. Port Jeuno shouting was similarly unsuccessful. The two primary classes of things still unknown are BLU swords and MMM weapons. If we get an NQ/HQ BLU sword pair and any of the MMM weapons, I'd fill them all in and call it "good enough." That would eliminate 18 of the 31 remaining untested Killer items.

Edit: I noticed my mule actually has both BLU and Beast Slayer (from the ZNM Qiqirn), so I tested that against Rarabs and found a 15% Beast Killer proc rate. Iirc, that makes it the most potent killer equipment in the game. Unfortunately, I doubt it generalizes to the other weapons. I've heard 4-5% thrown around for the NQ/HQ BLU sword pairs.

I also decided to test BLU job traits. Beast Killer (2 spells) came out at 8% flat (excluded 9%). Beast Killer (4 spells) hung out at 10% for a long time, then drifted down to 9%. I don't know what it's going to do from here, but I've put my mule on "Away" and I'm leaving him in a corner with Rarabs.

Edit 2: It drifted down to 8% flat after over 50,000 swings. Also, I just noticed that Vendetta doesn't come from MMM so I've adjusted the numbers above accordingly.

Sage

983 posts

I did manage to get a Maze for Kogglemander on three characters, so hopefully I can get a sword to test out of it in the coming weeks.

Also, I did CS Apollyon II on DNC/SAM with Red Curry Buns and Warding Circle up most of the time (17% Killer anticipated). I parsed a little north of 5%, which indicates that killer potency is likely 1/3-strength in there.

Yay for Jhereg! Also, I did CS Apollyon II on DNC/SAM with Red Curry Buns and Warding Circle up most of the time (17% Killer anticipated). I parsed a little north of 5%, which indicates that killer potency is likely 1/3-strength in there.

Guru

268 posts

Well, they're definitely flagged as Notorious Monsters (I didn't /check them, but I assume you get the Impossible to Gauge! message). :)

The numbers don't work out exactly, but it's very obvious that there is again an approximate 1/3 reduction in Killer Effect% potency. It's probably not exactly 1/3rd, or my rounding isn't correct, but you can see the results and help me out. This is against the Demon-y demons, DRK, BLM, PLD (ignored the RDM and Finale'd the PLD's Shell).

** -- Demon Killer Testing in CS Apollyon II --**

99 BST/SAM

Killer Effect % -**14%**

STR 101+41

MND 80+10

Base 300% Cloudsplitter w/ Red Curry Bun, Tatami Shield -**805**

300% Cloudsplitter w/ RCB, Tatami Shield, Ferine +2 -**845** (+5% damage, so +10 or +11 Demon Killer)

300% Cloudsplitter w/ RCB, Tatami Shield, Ferine +2, Flawless Ribbon -**845** (+5%, so it was +10 Demon Killer)

If the Killer Effects were chopped to 2/3rds, I would've guessed 9% effective KE, but it gave numbers that reflected 10% effective KE. Now I add Warding Circle for +5% Circle damage and +5% Killer Effect. Since my Killer Effects are at 19%, I presume it will be cut down to 12.66%, rounded down to 12%.

300% Cloudsplitter w/ RCB, Tatami Shield, Ferine +2,__Warding Circle__ - **895** (+5% damage from Warding Circle and +6% on top of that from +12 or +13 Demon Killer)

300% Cloudsplitter w/ RCB, Tatami Shield, Ferine +2,__Warding Circle__, Flawless Ribbon - **895** (+5% Circle and +6% again, so +12 Demon Killer)

That one worked out okay. And then I used Sanctus Rosary (+3% Demon Killer) which brings the actual Killer Effects to 22%

300% Cloudsplitter w/ RCB, Tatami Shield, Ferine +2, Warding Circle,__Sanctus Rosary__ - **904** (+5% Circle and ~+7% damage, so +14/+15 Demon Killer)

300% Cloudsplitter w/ RCB, Tatami Shield, Ferine +2, Warding Circle,__Sanctus Rosary__, Flawless Ribbon - **904** (+5% Circle dmg and ~+7% damage again, so +14)

This one is slightly off from what I expected (the damage is a lil' higher than what I would've guessed).

*Edited, Jan 9th 2013 5:46pm by Bookmarku *

The numbers don't work out exactly, but it's very obvious that there is again an approximate 1/3 reduction in Killer Effect% potency. It's probably not exactly 1/3rd, or my rounding isn't correct, but you can see the results and help me out. This is against the Demon-y demons, DRK, BLM, PLD (ignored the RDM and Finale'd the PLD's Shell).

99 BST/SAM

Killer Effect % -

STR 101+41

MND 80+10

Base 300% Cloudsplitter w/ Red Curry Bun, Tatami Shield -

300% Cloudsplitter w/ RCB, Tatami Shield, Ferine +2 -

300% Cloudsplitter w/ RCB, Tatami Shield, Ferine +2, Flawless Ribbon -

If the Killer Effects were chopped to 2/3rds, I would've guessed 9% effective KE, but it gave numbers that reflected 10% effective KE. Now I add Warding Circle for +5% Circle damage and +5% Killer Effect. Since my Killer Effects are at 19%, I presume it will be cut down to 12.66%, rounded down to 12%.

300% Cloudsplitter w/ RCB, Tatami Shield, Ferine +2,

300% Cloudsplitter w/ RCB, Tatami Shield, Ferine +2,

That one worked out okay. And then I used Sanctus Rosary (+3% Demon Killer) which brings the actual Killer Effects to 22%

300% Cloudsplitter w/ RCB, Tatami Shield, Ferine +2, Warding Circle,

300% Cloudsplitter w/ RCB, Tatami Shield, Ferine +2, Warding Circle,

This one is slightly off from what I expected (the damage is a lil' higher than what I would've guessed).

99BST

Sage

983 posts

Okay, so

Floor(14*X,1) = 5% {X must be between 5/14 and 3/7}

Floor(15*X,1) = 5% {X must be between 1/3 and 2/5}

Together {X mus be between 5/14 and 2/5} : So it's .357~0.4

Sorry, I need to bbl but I will look at the rest later.

Yay for Jhereg! Floor(14*X,1) = 5% {X must be between 5/14 and 3/7}

Floor(15*X,1) = 5% {X must be between 1/3 and 2/5}

Together {X mus be between 5/14 and 2/5} : So it's .357~0.4

Sorry, I need to bbl but I will look at the rest later.

Sage

983 posts

To come back to this:

Floor(14*X,1) = 5% {X must be between**5/14** and 3/7}

Floor(15*X,1) = 5% {X must be between 1/3 and 2/5}

Floor(19*X,1) = 6% {X must be between 6/19 and 7/19}

Floor(20*X,1) = 6% {X must be between 3/10 and 7/20}

Floor(22*X,1) = 7% {X must be between 7/22 and 4/11}

Floor(23*X,1) = 7% {X must be between 7/23 and**8/23**}

This is very hard to fit linearly, especially because 8/23 is smaller than 5/14 which means that those ranges don't overlap. This could be caused by flooring, but not in any way I can figure out. Another thing that we don't know is whether or not Circle potency is attenuated as well. If Circle potency drops to 4% against those monsters then we might be off by 1% in our assessment of Killer potency. If that was the case, then 37.5% (3/8) would fit as the modifier. To confirm this, you would need to do a Cloudsplitter with and without Circle up while not wearing AF3+2 body.

Additionally, Vendetta is 5% Beast Killer so that one can be crossed off. I get another 3 shots at Kogglemander tonight.

Yay for Jhereg! Floor(14*X,1) = 5% {X must be between

Floor(15*X,1) = 5% {X must be between 1/3 and 2/5}

Floor(19*X,1) = 6% {X must be between 6/19 and 7/19}

Floor(20*X,1) = 6% {X must be between 3/10 and 7/20}

Floor(22*X,1) = 7% {X must be between 7/22 and 4/11}

Floor(23*X,1) = 7% {X must be between 7/23 and

This is very hard to fit linearly, especially because 8/23 is smaller than 5/14 which means that those ranges don't overlap. This could be caused by flooring, but not in any way I can figure out. Another thing that we don't know is whether or not Circle potency is attenuated as well. If Circle potency drops to 4% against those monsters then we might be off by 1% in our assessment of Killer potency. If that was the case, then 37.5% (3/8) would fit as the modifier. To confirm this, you would need to do a Cloudsplitter with and without Circle up while not wearing AF3+2 body.

Additionally, Vendetta is 5% Beast Killer so that one can be crossed off. I get another 3 shots at Kogglemander tonight.

Guru

268 posts

Byrthnoth wrote:

This is very hard to fit linearly, especially because 8/23 is smaller than 5/14 which means that those ranges don't overlap. This could be caused by flooring, but not in any way I can figure out. Another thing that we don't know is whether or not Circle potency is attenuated as well. If Circle potency drops to 4% against those monsters then we might be off by 1% in our assessment of Killer potency. If that was the case, then 37.5% (3/8) would fit as the modifier. To confirm this, you would need to do a Cloudsplitter with and without Circle up while not wearing AF3+2 body.

99 BST/SAM

300% TP Cloudsplitter without Warding Circle:

300% TP Cloudsplitter

Edit: Wrote Arcane Circle instead of Warding Circle. ^^;

99BST

Guru

268 posts

Arktoi's "Killer" Effects +5 is like Tatami Shield/Flawless Ribbon in that it bestows universal Killer Effects.

VS. Sea Puk

Just Arktoi equipped: 300% TP Primal Rend = 729

Arktoi + Ferine Gausape +2: 300% TP Primal Rend = 743 (**+2% damage**, since floor([Killer Effect +5] / 2) = 2% damage increase)

VS. Sea Puk

Just Arktoi equipped: 300% TP Primal Rend = 729

Arktoi + Ferine Gausape +2: 300% TP Primal Rend = 743 (

99BST

9,382 posts

I really appreciate the testing you folks do. Thanks!

lolgaxe wrote:

When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

clicky

**B***i*__U__~~S~~
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