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Conclusive jug testingFollow

#102 Jun 11 2011 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
6.7 is actually the ~-5% from Stout Servant (12/256) * -2% from monster/pet affinity, I think.


when we first got stout servant it was 4.7
legs +1 made it 6.7
when we got higher level it was 6.7 and legs +2 made it 9%

also, you have this bonus no matter what your pet is vs prey. monster correlation is not affecting it.

Edited, Jun 11th 2011 4:16pm by Xilk
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#103 Jun 13 2011 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
6.7 is actually the ~-5% from Stout Servant (12/256) * -2% from monster/pet affinity, I think.

Were you wearing Ferine Quijotes +1 for the test? Ferine Quijotes +1 gives Stout Servant+1 (which roughly boosts it from -5% to -6.7%).
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#104 Jun 13 2011 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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svlyons wrote:
Byrthnoth wrote:
6.7 is actually the ~-5% from Stout Servant (12/256) * -2% from monster/pet affinity, I think.

Were you wearing Ferine Quijotes +1 for the test? Ferine Quijotes +1 gives Stout Servant+1 (which roughly boosts it from -5% to -6.7%).


at level 90, bst already has the 6.7
this is tier 2 of stout servant. you have this even w/out quijotes on.
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#105 Jun 17 2011 at 6:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Just to give you a direction on the head, apparently the BLU version adds to the fTP of Weapon Skills when used against an appropriate targets. We probably just need to do 300TP Fireballs with and without it on to see the difference.

As a control to make sure it's working, we can enhance our pet's monster correlation effect using this Atma. If we see a damage difference with the Atma, but not with the hat, then the hat isn't working or we don't have the conditions for it quite right.
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#106 Jun 30 2011 at 8:56 PM Rating: Good
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Played around with Nursery Nazuna and BST JAs while trying to figure out their enmity. Used Familiar and went around hitting L0 sh*t with him. Crit range was 511-533, normal range was 474-494.

I had now way to lower his HP, so I had no way to know his level, I think. 5/5 BA merits. Anyway, point is that these are slightly higher (About base damage+2) than your numbers. Either I got a high level one and you got a low level one, or Familiar affects pet STR. My only pre-Familiar crit was 522, which shows nothing.

Nevermind. Repeated the test and there's no difference in the spread before and after Familiar.

Edited, Jul 1st 2011 1:03am by Byrthnoth
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#107 Jun 30 2011 at 11:04 PM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Played around with Nursery Nazuna and BST JAs while trying to figure out their enmity. Used Familiar and went around hitting L0 sh*t with him. Crit range was 511-533, normal range was 474-494.

I had now way to lower his HP, so I had no way to know his level, I think. 5/5 BA merits. Anyway, point is that these are slightly higher (About base damage+2) than your numbers. Either I got a high level one and you got a low level one, or Familiar affects pet STR. My only pre-Familiar crit was 522, which shows nothing.


I'm guessing you have a level 87~88 jug.
My base of 116 for nazuna is a level 86 jug. that is a confirmed level. my other base for nazuna is 120, which I believe is a level 90 jug. I did not use familiar at all.

You are right in the middle of this range. All the WAR type jugs are pretty close at these levels. What was your sample size?
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#108 Jun 30 2011 at 11:20 PM Rating: Good
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Pretty high in my second test. I can extend the ranges to: 472~495 and 510~534

Because pets use monster pDIF, I'm wondering if they their fSTR mechanisms are also common with monsters. I don't actually remember seeing any serious research into the effects of vitality on monster damage. Everyone always just assumes that it works the same as Player fSTR applied backwards.

I might try to test this by back-tanking with Counterstance and varying levels of VIT tomorrow. That should let Abyssea mobs cap pDIF on me. If we see the same high ratio between STR bonus and base damage that we see for pets, perhaps it would give us a new avenue to investigate pet damage with. It would also likely re-"vitalize" Vitality as a defensive stat. Lools. Anyway, I'm sorry for the pun.

Edited, Jul 1st 2011 1:23am by Byrthnoth
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#109 Jul 10 2011 at 2:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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I was reading on SE forums and someone brought up Treasure Hunter on Yuly again.
I've been waiting till the level cap goes up to test this, and I thought I would be repeating myself on that thread... but something else occured to me that I'm surprised no one mentioned before as a testing method. Its really simple...

you can probably test TH w/ Yuly by going out duo w/ a thf. make sure thf has all treasure hunter+ gear off.

go out and test to make sure you can spawn a level 90 Yuly.

Let Yuly attack a mob a few times then call Yuly off and let the thf hit it until they can proc the treasure hunter level dialogue. See what level it pops at.
As I understand, it should only proc when the th level is increased and it will only incrase 1 at a time after the basic level has been established. So if thf has no th+ gear on, then the message should show 1 level higher that what Yuly was able to set.

This way you can test if level 90 Yuly sets it at 3, or if it can increase it above this the same way a thf player can. Also it will establish what level of TH Yuly has.

I might do this if I can find a thf friend willing to spend the time, but I thought I would share the idea w/ the community incase someone else gets to it before me... which I think is likely.
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#110 Jul 10 2011 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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You would have to go out with a THF<90.

Like, say Yuly has TH3:
Yuly -> TH level 3 effect on the mob
THF -> TH3 base is already on the mob, so first proc will level it up to 4

If Yuly had TH2:
Yuly -> TH level 2 effect on the mob
THF -> TH3 base means their first action gives the mob TH level 3, first proc -> Level 4
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#111 Jul 10 2011 at 9:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm no expert on any of this Treasure Hunter business, but would this work:

Do the test in Abyssea as BST w/ 90 DipperYuly + Atma of Dread so you'd have potentially TH4 and bring your THF friend with no TH gear. If THF procs level 4, Dipper only has TH2 natively. But if he were to proc level 5, then Dipper had TH3+1. Yes?

Edit: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v403/TheBookmark/ffxi_20110711_010220.png

Went to Misareaux Coast[A] as 90BST/DNC, called DipperYuly and verified that it was level 90 (Healing Salve cured 1810 HP). I used Ducal Guard, Mounted Champion, and Dread. 90THF friend came along - no TH gear - using RR, GH, C&D atmas and we fought spiders at conflux 00. We recreated the result multiple times. The first TH proc that showed up was always Treasure Hunter level 5. So DipperYuly would have Treasure Hunter level 3 at 90.


Edited, Jul 11th 2011 12:17am by Bookmarku
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#112 Jul 11 2011 at 3:38 AM Rating: Good
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Well, that works! Guess Yuly gets TH3 after all!
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#113 Jul 15 2011 at 6:01 AM Rating: Good
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Judging by SE's new "directions for BST adjustments," it looks like there are some Familiar changes in store. Now, SE generally stacks whatever mechanics they're going to add on top of the mechanics that are already there, so it would benefit us to try and understand how Familiar actually works before the next patch. If we try after the next patch, we'll likely be trying to figure out two mechanisms at once.

So, it's my understanding that it likely does not:
* Increase pet STR
* Increase pet level (at least past EM)

Which leaves:
* Increased Attack?
* Increased duration?
* Some kind of Pet Haste? (from wiki, though it has never seemed that way to me)
* +10% HP

Has anyone heard anything else? Any other suspicions? Any way to test the above list?
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#114 Jul 15 2011 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:

Which leaves:
* Increased Attack?
* Increased duration?
* Some kind of Pet Haste? (from wiki, though it has never seemed that way to me)
* +10% HP

Has anyone heard anything else? Any other suspicions? Any way to test the above list?


I believe the increase in duration has been noted on FFXIclopedia. As for pet Haste, I cannot seem to find my post on it from a while back, but from what I recall, we definitely did not see a 25% increase in attack speed between rounds (by using Timestamp to note a pet's delay before and after Familiar and comparing it to the theoretical delay).

Unfortunately, Timestamp only allowed me to calculate the delay in seconds, so I guessed the decisecond value based on the distribution of values noted; it's possible there might be some minute Haste value that I'm unable to confirm. You can confirm or deny the +10% HP part with Abyssea items.


EDIT: Found the thread; there's several posts, including my own, on the topic.

Edited, Jul 15th 2011 7:41pm by Khakster
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#115 Jul 16 2011 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
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+10% HP and 30 min duration to charm are the only confirmed points that I know of.
everything else is guesswork.

You can test the strenth by using a familiar'd broncha and/or shasra on level 0 mobs. Just like my base + fstr tests. IF there were an increase in STR it would show there. However, I'm pretty sure there is not.

we cannot test attack yet because we do not have known attack for any of the jugs. you could test def by finding a known attack on a mob and parsing the hits the pet takes.

I think familiar only does the things we've already confirmed.
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#116 Jul 18 2011 at 6:20 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks guys. That's pretty much what I had assumed, but I wanted confirmation.

Also, I think our understanding of Primal Rend might be a little lacking. I was out testing the Killer Effect of Pizza on Crabs in Abyssea - Misareaux and I swapped Twilight Helm, no pants, and 2x Dark Ring for Beast Trousers, Ferine Cabasset +2, and no rings. I was getting a base damage difference between the two cases, which indicates there is likely a second (weak) stat mod besides CHR (+12 in both cases).

For comparison, it was "All stats +12" vs. "CHR+12, DEX+8"

And Sagheera is busy upgrading my AF Trousers to AF+1, so I should be able to test if that increases the killer potency some time around next week.
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#117 Jul 18 2011 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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Does Dipper have to be alive when mob dies for TH to have an effect on the drops? Reason I ask is because I started a Simurgh solo with Yuli and he didn't do that well so I let him die and called the Lizard for Infrasonics. I finished the fight with the Lizard (didn't get the drop) and was wondering if the TH from Yuli did any good since he was dead before the fight was even half way through.

#118 Jul 19 2011 at 9:06 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Does Dipper have to be alive when mob dies for TH to have an effect on the drops? Reason I ask is because I started a Simurgh solo with Yuli and he didn't do that well so I let him die and called the Lizard for Infrasonics. I finished the fight with the Lizard (didn't get the drop) and was wondering if the TH from Yuli did any good since he was dead before the fight was even half way through.


Shouldn't have to be alive, as treasure hunter is a debuff. Only should the monster lose aggro and go unclaimed will it matter.
#119 Aug 30 2011 at 3:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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This information is subject to change, but here's the preliminary pet data from the test server... :D

I did the testing in 2 waves, once at level 92 and again at level 95, spawning as many different leveled pets as I had in my inventory (most, but not all, are available from the GM Moogle also). So here's what happened pet-wise, post-90:
 
Name                     90      91      92      93      94      95 
CraftyClyvonne          4886 <-(Capped) 
PrestoJulio             4344    4406    4470    4532 <-(Capped) 
LuckyLulush             4344    4406    4470    4532    4596    4660 
MailbusterCetas         4344    4406    4470    4532    4596    4660 
SwiftSeighard           4344    4406    4470    4532    4596   (4660) <-(Didn't confirm yet.) 
AudaciousAnna           4886   (4958)  (5030)   5100    5170    5242 
FatsoFargann            3800    3856    3910    3966    4022    4076 
FlowerpotMerle          4608   (4672)   4736   (4800)   4864   (????) <-(Capped@94?) 
DipperYuly              3620    3672    3726    3778    3830    3882 
BloodclawShasra         4616    4688    4748    4816    4884    4950 
BugeyedBroncha          4344    4406    4470    4532    4596    4660 
GorefangHobs                                    4816    4884    4950 
GooeyGerard                                                     4076

I don't have any DiscreetLouise (never see'em on the AH) and I couldn't get a 95 FlowerpotMerle or SwiftSeighard to spawn, though it might still be uncapped (sadly, Vermihumus/Mellow Bird Broth aren't available from the GM Moogle). And so the couerl pet is capped at 90 and PrestoJulio is capped at 93! But thankfully some of our favorite pets are still uncapped...

When I spawned a level 95 LuckyLulush I did a lil' Wild Carrot test too:
254% TP Wild Carrot - 564 HP healed
255% TP Wild Carrot - 582 HP healed
300% TP Wild Carrot - 582 HP healed

So there was no increase in Fencer potency for our pets as far as I know, still the ol' 45 TP bonus.

EDIT: Speaking of Fencer, did some testing to see if we got the next tier by using Cloudsplitter on Beach Bunnies in Cape Terrigan on Windsday/Iceday. It seems we have the next level with 40 TP bonus, but I'm not sure yet at what level we gain it (possibly 91? Gonna test later.)

Cloudsplitter TP/DMG data:

Dual-wielding (no Fencer bonus):
 TP  - DMG 
107% - 665 
110% - 670 
112% - 675 
128% - 709 
133% - 721 
147% - 751 
156% - 770 
161% - 782 
171% - 804 
216% - 894 
226% - 911 
244% - 941 
250% - 953 
261% - 972 
272% - 991 
282% - 1008 
286% - 1015 
289% - 1020 
300% - 1039

Single-wielding (Fencer bonus):
 TP  - DMG 
101% - 738 
116% - 771 
122% - 783 
129% - 800 
140% - 824 
150% - 845 
170% - 883 
174% - 890 
204% - 942 
214% - 959 
237% - 999 
257% - 1034 
260% - 1039 
264% - 1039 
288% - 1039 
300% - 1039



EDIT2: Determined the next Fencer tier to appear at level 94!

@Level 92 
Single-wielding: 
260% - 994 
268% - 1006 <- 30 TP bonus nearly caps damage 
272% - 1010  
300% - 1010 
 
@Level 93 
Single-wielding: 
260% - 1000 
267% - 1011 <- Again, the 30 TP bonus from Fencer approximately caps damage 
270% - 1017 
300% - 1017 
 
@Level 94 
Single-wielding: 
259% - 1032 <- The new tier of Fencer adds 40 TP and caps damage around the 260% TP mark. 
262% - 1033 
268% - 1033 
300% - 1033


Edited, Mar 23rd 2012 1:08pm by Bookmarku
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#120 Aug 30 2011 at 10:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thanx for the testing. I only finally got the test client setup earlier today, and didn't have time for testing.

I'm a bit irritated at the level caps for jugs. They are just enough that you need BA merits to keep them effective... I really don't want to spare BA merits for them, and I really don't want to go w/out the variety either.

I'm going to try retesting a few pets attack and str for level 95 jugs. (especially for run wild) Clyvonne capping at 90 is actually a great tool for testing. I wish there were a few more items we could get from the moogle... I don't have my monster gloves still.. (I know, no excuse), and I don't have magian fire axes....

Its interesting that we are getting higher tiers of fencer so quickly. I rather like it. If we got tier 3 at level 94, like you say, I'd guess tier 2 was probably at level 87.
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#121 Aug 31 2011 at 9:28 AM Rating: Good
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So, about Fencer. I've been having a hard time nailing down its crit rate bonus. Here is some testing I did.
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#122 Aug 31 2011 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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So you're level 95? What did you have to do for the new level cap quest?
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#123 Aug 31 2011 at 11:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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On the test server you just talk to the GM Moogle and set your Main Job Level to 95.
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#124 Aug 31 2011 at 2:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Falkirk and I teamed up doing some testing today. It was cool to run into each other on test server and actually be able to collaborate directly. Especially since we are used to being on different servers.
The hp tables above were very helpful to speed us along.

HObs 6.4 tp/hit level 93 base STR 123
Gerard 6.4 tp/hit level 95 base str 124

Also we checked alot of possibilities for run wild. WE eliminated several possible effects.
We can confirm that it does NOT increase STR or attack at all.
It does not give pets a TP bonus
it does NOT give regain
it does NOT raise pet max HP
it does NOT provide any extra damage reduction

Falkirk did notice that it give pet a very potent regen. We could not make a good estimate of how much, but roughly in the 50hp/tic range.

Our only theorizing is that it is meant to revive/prolong your pet tank... say, if you are going to lose it and 5 minutes and a strong regen would save it. It may also improve def or eva.

HOwever, I have to reverse my opinion regarding this ja. Unless it greatly improves crit rate (I want parser to test a few more items) which I did not notice, then I really don't think this is a worthwhile ja.

I was really looking forward to this, expecting it to be a big dd buff. pet burning itself out... but it seems its tanking oriented. I'm sorry, but we have plenty of wonderful tanking abilities. WE can already keep our pets alive thru the most strenuous tanking situations w/ eta biscuits and dawn mulsum.

IF it is tanking oriented, as the regen seems to imply, it is really terrible. we will lose all the hate we've built up on the pet when it dies. There is no point to this ja, unless you want to burn up jugs instead of pet food. Its really not what I expected or wanted. it doesn't seem to improve dd at all. If its for tanking, it might improve def, eva, or enmity also, but we don't really need those things. WE need a good zerging ja.
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#125 Sep 02 2011 at 5:39 PM Rating: Good
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Don't take this as an "I told you so post", I used to be an eternal optimist when it came to SE updates, but afer many years of consistent dissapointment, not that they never added anthing of use over the last decade, I realized they never quite turn out the way you hope them to based on their descriptons. This one seemed to have a big old fail sign on it from the get go, though. They have just never been in touch with how bst actually play and want to play the job.
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#126 Sep 03 2011 at 9:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Did a manual parse of the en-slow effect for GooeyGerard. Sample size was 600 hits. The effect doesn't overwrite itself, so only counted hits up until the proc, then killed the mob and began counting on a fresh mob, etc.

96/600 hits had additional effect: slow, so approximately a 1/6 chance of activating.

Edit: Haha, also just confirmed that GooeyGerard lasts for 90 minutes. :P

Edited, Sep 3rd 2011 12:28pm by Bookmarku
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