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#352 Dec 29 2012 at 9:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Xilk wrote:
I'm planning on it if you don't.. but I'm doing some other tests on the test server atm...

a while ago, I tried to see if run wild or familiar had an attack bonus to it. However, in light of your recent testing, it seems my targets were too weak.
if you want to feel free. otherwise. I'll include it at the end of my current run. Update time seems a fine time to be on test server imo.


Have you made any progress on this? :) I'm in the process of working on it...

Lvl 93 PrestoJulio vs Lvl 93 Hispid Rarab (160 exp):
                  Melee Dmg     Crit Dmg      Accuracy 
Without Familiar    93~154       191~282       93.84% 
With Familiar       93~154       191~279       93.37% 
With Run Wild      104~182       219~297       94.52% 
With Pet:Atk+50    104~170       203~299       92.92% 

Lvl 93 PrestoJulio vs Lvl 94 Hispid Rarab (166 exp):
                  Melee Dmg     Crit Dmg      Accuracy 
Without Familiar    85~144       179~271       94.03% 
With Familiar       86~143       178~272       93.80% 
With Run Wild       98~172       204~290       94.08% 
With Pet:Atk+50     96~160       196~283       91.67% 

The Run Wild parse is still in progress (takes quite a while because of the recast ; ; ), but there is an attack boost associated with it. Will edit in the details when I have more info.

Edit: Got enough samples to include the Lvl 93 Hispid Rarab Run Wild data. It's a decent chunk of attack (probably Pet: Attack +50ish, I'll try to get a parse to see how close the Melee range gets). Crit Rate is still hovering around 12.6% which is pretty normal, so I doubt there's a boost there. I can do an accuracy check afterwards on Flameskimmer. :)

Edit2: So after all that, I'm seeing Familiar giving no bonus to attack, but Run Wild giving some amount around +60ish. I did a brief parse with Pet: Attack +72 and the melee range was higher (had a non-crit for 201 damage on Lvl 93 Hispid Rarab) so the Run Wild bonus is somewhere in the middle. Similar to the Cabasset +1/+2, I'm not entirely convinced it's a flat bonus to attack - perhaps I could demonstrate this in the same fashion as before. But after parsing for 6 hours, it's time for a break...

Edited, Dec 29th 2012 1:07pm by Bookmarku
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#353 Dec 29 2012 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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We can probably conclude from that parse that level correction does apply to pets. The question is what would happen with a level 93 Presto Julio vs. a level 92 monster.
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#354 Jan 03 2013 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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I tested w/ the charmed mnk. The damage range is very close.
low/hi
143/203


my def was higher in abyssea due to the vit+. However I believe there is no change in pet mechanics in brenner. I think we can use it just fine for further testing.



I'm thinking mnk for the low def sample... get ~600 hits

then we'll want higher def samples as well. but I'm not sure what def levels would be useful.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2013 7:11pm by Xilk
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#355 Jan 04 2013 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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Matching your VIT to the monster's (or getting it closer somehow) would probably be useful. The problem with your monk sample is that we don't know the pet's base damage, so we don't know its pDIF. Should do this:
* Find a monster and determine its VIT and the base damage of your pet against it (probably due to capping pDIF)
* Set your VIT to be the same as the monster's (or, if that is not possible, some multiple of 4 more than the monster's. So, like, +24 VIT more than the monster and we assume -6 base damage for the pet).
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#356 Jan 05 2013 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Some testing has been done which has some implications for BST gearing. :o

From a while ago, there was news of partial set bonuses on the new Salvage +1 gear (so the possibility of Critical Hit Rate+3%ish from 2 pieces of Skadi?) and now the Skadi body +1 is looking like 7% Dual Wield enhancement.

Ocelomeh +1/Toci's Harness is losing to Skadi's Visor +1/Skadi's Cuirie +1 from what I can tell.
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#357 Jan 10 2013 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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I went out yesterday and confirmed that pets/avatars/monsters use either exactly the same fSTR equations as players, or very similar equations. I chose to use avatars for this testing because their base damage is lower (so the monster lasts longer). Basically I went in to Abyssea and used celestial avatars with varying amounts of +STR from Atma (0,10,20,30,40,50,60,70,80,90,100). I targeted EM Bluffalo because we know their VIT (/DEF). There is a very obvious frequency spike at 1.0 pDIF, so that lets me know the avatar's base damage (lowest number in this frequency spike).

My results match the fSTR equations for either D48/104STR or D47/108STR. They do not match for any other combination. I could tell the difference between these two cases if I was capable of adding 1~4 or 9 STR to my Avatar (or reducing the monster's VIT by 1~4 or 9). I should be able to use Choke with my 85 INT mule to lower the Bluffalo's VIT by 9 and figure out exactly what the D/STR combination is.
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#358 Jan 11 2013 at 8:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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wild oats from merle is exactly -9 vit.

otherwise I need to review the fstr formula's a bit more to understand how to use this and aid in testing.
As I understand level 99 bluffalo have 118 vit and 516 def.

I"m not sure how to identify this change when you add str. The low damage changes by a large amount?

Also, are there level 99 bluffalo randomly or do you need to work them up to the level? I imagine it to be quite tedious to find them and you would need to manually separate a parse, because xp values in aby are not static for level.



also back in page 6, figster applied this formula to the base damages for level 99 pets:

Damage rating=weapon dmg + weapon rank+8

to determine a damage ranking for all the bst pets based off the level 1 mob kill tests I did.

Would you have reason to think this may not be accurate? It estimates the damage from gorefang hobs to be 109.

Also, can you turn the same formula around to determine the str of the level 99 pets?
If it works, It seems to put the str at 131... not sure if that is right.

Figster estimated gorefangs dex as 105~108 from my G. colibri parse.


Edited, Jan 11th 2013 10:14am by Xilk
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#359 Jan 13 2013 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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Confirmed that Avatars are D47, 108 STR. It matches all my data points and nothing else does.

You can estimate base damage that way, but you make several assumptions about how monster fSTR works, you assume monster weapon rank is calculated the same way as player fSTR, etc. This was just a test to show that monsters probably actually do use the same fSTR equations as players.


Reading over what he did, the DEX value might be correct (or it might not be. That amount of data leaves a huge range of possibilities). I really don't follow his base damage calculations, but 109 is a viable option (again, not enough data from the parse to really know. Also, there have been some indications that monsters do not ever "cap" fSTR and will continue to increase indefinitely, which would totally throw off his analysis. When Kegsay was fighting level 0 monsters with his avatars at 75, he used Ecliptic Growl and noticed an increase in avatar base damage. Now, you'd expect an Avatar would be fSTR capped on level 1 monsters even at level 75, but not so. This indicates that avatar/monster/pet fSTR caps either don't exist or are different from players, so you can't necessarily back-calculate the base damage of a pet using its base damage against level 0 monsters.

Some un-published PUP research also (weirdly) showed that Auto base damage for the Sharpshot frame depends on both auto STR and DEX, and that is cappable (barely against level 0 monsters) using Animator +1 and AF1 hands.

So yeah, pet base damage is far from a closed book, but at least we know that they likely use fSTR equations that are similar to players.

Edited, Jan 13th 2013 6:07pm by Byrthnoth
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#360 Jan 13 2013 at 6:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yes I do remember reading that from kegsey. I would not be surprised if mob fstr doesn't cap.

Would BST pet parses vs level 99 buffalo be useful?

What would one look for?
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#361 Jan 13 2013 at 6:57 PM Rating: Good
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You're looking for a frequency spike that represents 1.0 pDIF in the "Offense Details" tab. For instance, this is from my Choke (-9 VIT) parse:
Garuda 
Melee 
39:    2 
         40:    1 
         43:    4 
         44:    2 
         45:    4 
         46:    4 
         47:    1 
         48:   13 
 ^       49:   12 
+        50:   15 
         51:    3 
         52:    2 
         54:    2 
         56:    3 
         57:    2 
         58:    2 
         59:    5 
         60:    1 
         61:    1 
         63:    3 
         64:    1 
         65:    1 
Melee Crits 
84:    1 
         85:    1 
         92:    1 
         94:    1 
         95:    1 
+        97:    2 
        107:    1 
 ^      108:    1 
+       109:    2 
+       110:    2 
        111:    1 
        112:    1 
        116:    1 
 
 


See the huge frequency spike from 48 to 50? That represents Base damage * 1.0 pDIF * (1~1.05 random multiplier), so my base damage for this parse is 48. 48*1.05 = 50.4, which floors to 50. As far as getting level 99 Bluffalo to fight, it's not actually that hard. You can level them up (really easy for SMN with the spammable SP2 on the test server), and once you've leveled them up enough they'll always respawn as EM or T.

It's worth noting that a single parse will not tell you the pet's base damage. In order to figure this out for summoner, I parsed something like 12 different STR values for my avatar (using Atma) and then fit the fSTR curve to it. If I had done it in a more controlled/planned way I probably could have gotten away with fewer points, but I had two summoners on the test server and just wanted to grind it out.

Edited, Jan 13th 2013 7:59pm by Byrthnoth
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#362 Jan 18 2013 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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It looks like SE may have indirectly confirmed that monster ratio caps at 2.0:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112776-Dev-Tracker-Findings-Posts-%28NO-DISCUSSION%29?p=5564270&viewfull=1#post5564270

Quote:
Depending on the opponent's attack value, if the player's defense value is 50% or higher, the damage reduction will increase. If the player's defense value is less than 50%, the damage reduction will be the same as if it was 50%.


This is saying, I think, that if the monster has twice as much Attack as you have Defense then there are no further increases in damage above that. They also discuss level correction for monsters. This would confirm what we saw earlier in this thread, where Pet Attack had no effect against low level monsters.

It is likely that whatever changes SE makes to monsters will apply to BST pets, so these changes are very important for pet damage. Raising the Ratio cap and decreasing/eliminating level correction would hurt BST damage a lot against low level targets, but would improve the maximum damage against EM+ monsters with sufficient pet attack. The lack of pet attack buffs in the game (and considering that the ones that do exist aren't used) probably means that this will be a net nerf, unless pets have far more attack than we realize.
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#363 Jan 18 2013 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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I find this incredibly ironic that they announce this information only shortly after we seemd to discover it for pets. (when/how did you learn that level correction factor of 0.05/level for mobs vs players, anyway?)

blah, if I had time right now, I would search the 6~7 new jp dev posts to double check the translation looking for more insight,... however the community rep team will start posting their translations before I could do that now... oh well, I read a good book this morning instead.

My first concern reading this is that the changes proposed may make it harder for some of our pets to tank lower level mobs as well as they currently do. Our pets can tank huge masses of lower level stuff because of this level correction as well. BST might not be able to take hugely reduced physical/magical damage from nukes from lower level NMs. I"m thinking of tanking a bunch of quest nms which now the magic still hits players like a truck but pets it rolls off of.

You can't say w/out hard numbers though. It would make the actual stats from pet to pet matter more. You would actually have more of a difference I think w/ raphie tanking in some cases. Things like Harden shell and Water wall would mean somthing. BST would also see a difference in damage of our pets vs lower level mobs. If they make this change it would make it much easier to determine pet attack values.

At the same time, This seems it would make the damage mechanics for bst to be much closer to other players. If the level correction does nerf our pets vs high level targets completely, then bst might be useful in something like legion (OUCH they ripped our pets apart).

If they are gonna do this and it DOES balance bst out more w/ other players, then I REALLY want charming back.


Edited, Jan 18th 2013 2:33pm by Xilk

Edited, Jan 18th 2013 4:32pm by Xilk
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#364 Jan 18 2013 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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It was a number thrown out by Motenten to account for the high damage done to players by monsters that were many levels above them. I think he then verified it. I'm not sure it's precise, but it seems to be about right as far as I can tell. It's probably possible to look through this thread and figure it out a little more accurately if I get the time <_<;;
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#365 Jan 19 2013 at 9:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's a number known from back in the early pDif re-calculations a few years ago, and even then it was old news.

Because of the fuzziness of how cRatio is calculated, and that we don't have a truly precise value for even un-corrected values right now, and that to tell the difference between 0.05 and 50/1024 and 51/1024 or anything like that would take tens of thousands of samples, I'm fine with just assuming a flat 0.05 per level.
#366 Jan 21 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
The lack of pet attack buffs in the game (and considering that the ones that do exist aren't used) probably means that this will be a net nerf, unless pets have far more attack than we realize.


This is what I am concerned about, and god knows, the last thing BST needs is a(nother) nerf.
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#367 Feb 01 2013 at 2:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Bit of analysis


Crit range for lvl 61-64 targets: 509 - 534
509 * 1.05 = 534.45

Taking out Crit Attack Bonus II, +8%
472 * 1.08 = 509.76

Assuming that is at the 4.0 cap, base damage is 472 / 4 = 118

Non-crit high is 495

495 / 118 = 4.195

4.2 would be 4.0 * 1.05 spread
118 * 4 * 1.05 = 495.6

Minimum damage for lvl 61 mobs: 472
472 = 118 * 4, exactly at cap

Lvl 56-58 had 476 max (and 476 * 1.05 = 499.8, same as observed 499 max), for a 119 base damage. Lvl 59 had 472 max, for 118 base damage. So fStr went up on the lvl 58 and lower mobs.



Min damage for Lvl 61-64:

 
Lvl   Dmg   pDif 
61:   472   4.000 
62:   466   3.949 - 3.958 
63:   458   3.881 - 3.890 
64:   451   3.822 - 3.830 


Max damage remained constant at 495. That means pDif is dropping below max.

NOTE: For player pDif, the cap is applied -after- the pDif randomization, but before the 1.05 randomization. To illustrate:

1-handed weapon. Max Ratio: 2.0. Crit = 2.0 + 1 = 3.0. pDif is applied to the 3.0 value, giving a range between 2.625 and 3.375. Anything between 3.0 and 3.375 is capped at 3.0, leaving about half of all observed values below 3.0.

2-handed weapon. Max Ratio: 2.25. Crit = 2.25 + 1 = 3.25. pDif is applied to the 3.25 value, giving a range between 2.875 and 3.625. Anything between 3.0 and 3.625 is capped at 3.0, leaving only a small fraction of values falling below 3.0.

-IF- this sort of behavior applies to mobs/pets as well then the post-crit total has to be high enough that its min value does not fall below 4.0, for the lvl 61 target. If you still have the parses then the frequency of the hit values would be important to know, as that would show if it's only generating a small trickle of lower values as the potential min pDif falls below 4.0.

Going back to the numbers above, and using the pDif required to get those values, it's apparent that they are dropping by more than the 0.05 per level that might be expected. In fact, it seems closer to 0.06 per level. At 0.06 per level, the values would decrease as:

4.0
3.94
3.88
3.82

Which are almost perfect matches for the observed minimums (given their sample size).

If that is the case, then the level correction for a level 99 pet vs level 61 mob would be 38 * 0.06 = +2.28. That would put final ratio adjustment at 4.28, and means min pDif offset would be no more than about -0.28 (player's is -0.375, but it reaches that cap at 3.0; it could very well go lower as ratio progresses to 4.0, as the offset also decreases on the way from 2.0 to 3.0). If the min pDif offset were, say, -0.25, the level correction could be -61/1024 per level.

In order to determine if this is sound, you need to find the exact attack value for the pet. This can be experimentally estimated by finding a point where the pet's min damage drops below 1.0 pDif, as that occurs as you drop below 1.25 cRatio, vs a target with no level correction (eg: Bluffalo). You can then compare that with what you might expect from calculating level/stats/skills to see if it matches up.

Once you've done that, find another target (probably with a much lower defense) with a level about 4-5 below EM (may take some work to find someone with an appropriately levelled job who can verify it, if you're in Abyssea) where you can be sure you can hit a 2.0 Ratio with whatever buffs/gear/etc you have. Ideally get about 1000 hits on that level target (though 500 can probably suffice) and look at the value offsets to determine whether the level correction holds for 0.05, or requires 0.06.


Edit: Oh,also need to find the proper base damage against the new target mob, obviously. Or get str/vit values.

Edited, Feb 1st 2013 2:40am by Kinematics
#368 Feb 01 2013 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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I have all my parses.

Offense Details:
Level 64 lizards:

Melee
451: 1
452: 1
453: 1
455: 2
458: 2
459: 2
460: 1
461: 3
462: 4
463: 3
464: 4
465: 1
466: 3
468: 1
469: 4
470: 1
471: 3
472: 10
473: 10
474: 9
475: 8
476: 10
477: 9
478: 9
479: 7
480: 6
^ 481: 8
482: 11
+ 483: 14
484: 10
485: 6
486: 10
487: 9
488: 6
489: 11
490: 8
491: 7
492: 7
493: 3
494: 4
495: 6
Melee Crits
509: 2
511: 1
513: 3
514: 1
+ 515: 4
517: 1
518: 1
521: 3
522: 1
^ 523: 2
524: 1
527: 2
528: 2
529: 1
530: 2
+ 531: 4
532: 1
533: 2
534: 1

Level 63

Melee
458: 2
465: 2
466: 1
467: 1
468: 1
469: 2
471: 4
472: 12
473: 16
474: 10
475: 3
+ 476: 20
477: 11
478: 6
479: 7
480: 8
481: 11
482: 13
^ 483: 18
484: 13
485: 4
486: 12
487: 14
488: 7
489: 12
490: 10
491: 11
492: 9
493: 6
494: 14
495: 17
Melee Crits
509: 1
510: 1
511: 1
513: 4
514: 1
515: 4
516: 2
517: 4
518: 5
519: 2
520: 3
521: 1
522: 2
^ 523: 2
524: 3
525: 1
527: 1
528: 2
529: 2
530: 3
531: 6
532: 1
+ 533: 7
534: 6

Level 62
Melee
469: 1
472: 12
473: 14
474: 8
475: 7
476: 8
477: 13
478: 7
479: 14
480: 12
481: 12
482: 14
^ 483: 13
484: 10
485: 12
+ 486: 19
487: 9
488: 15
489: 9
490: 12
491: 9
492: 10
493: 8
494: 5
495: 7
Melee Crits
509: 3
510: 5
513: 3
514: 2
515: 1
516: 3
517: 2
518: 2
519: 4
520: 4
^ 521: 4
522: 2
523: 3
525: 1
527: 2
528: 2
529: 5
530: 1
531: 1
532: 3
533: 2
+ 534: 7

Level 61

Melee
472: 9
473: 14
474: 6
475: 8
476: 5
477: 10
478: 10
479: 9
480: 9
481: 8
482: 11
+ 483: 15
^ 484: 6
485: 13
486: 11
487: 5
488: 9
489: 7
490: 6
491: 11
492: 11
493: 11
494: 12
495: 9
498: 1
503: 1
507: 1
509: 1
511: 1
Melee Crits
+ 509: 3
510: 2
511: 1
513: 1
514: 1
515: 2
516: 1
517: 1
518: 2
520: 1
522: 1
^ 523: 2
+ 524: 3
525: 2
+ 527: 3
528: 1
531: 1
532: 2
533: 1
+ 534: 3



This data is from the parse w/ no pet attack+ btw.

Edited, Feb 1st 2013 11:37am by Xilk
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#369 Feb 01 2013 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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Since attack doesn't seem to affect the damage on these; I combined 3 of my parses to have a larger sample size of the spreads. This combines the attack +60, max attack+ (aymur + ferine cabasset, exact values unknown, but probaly around attack + 200 total), and the no attack+ parse.)
I am not sure if/how the attack+ affects the spread.

Level 64 Lizards:

Melee
450: 1
451: 2
452: 3
453: 2
454: 4
455: 4
456: 2
457: 2
458: 5
459: 5
460: 4
461: 7
462: 10
463: 10
464: 14
465: 8
466: 7
467: 4
468: 6
469: 15
470: 7
471: 11
472: 52
+ 473: 56
474: 41
475: 46
476: 50
477: 38
478: 45
479: 35
480: 35
^ 481: 39
482: 47
483: 53
484: 51
485: 34
486: 47
487: 41
488: 30
489: 47
490: 32
491: 34
492: 44
493: 27
494: 23
495: 32
Melee Crits
509: 13
510: 7
511: 9
513: 14
514: 7
+ 515: 16
516: 6
517: 10
518: 6
519: 3
520: 8
+^ 521: 16
522: 6
523: 12
524: 11
525: 3
527: 10
528: 8
529: 7
530: 12
531: 9
532: 11
533: 10
534: 3

Level 63:
Melee
458: 4
460: 1
461: 1
462: 1
463: 1
464: 2
465: 4
466: 6
467: 4
468: 5
469: 5
470: 6
471: 13
472: 42
473: 49
474: 40
475: 28
476: 51
477: 37
478: 30
479: 33
480: 37
481: 40
482: 53
^ 483: 46
484: 41
485: 18
486: 43
487: 44
488: 26
489: 43
490: 35
491: 38
492: 37
493: 35
+ 494: 56
495: 51
Melee Crits
509: 6
510: 4
511: 10
513: 11
514: 4
515: 12
516: 3
517: 16
518: 16
519: 11
520: 8
521: 7
522: 8
^ 523: 10
524: 9
525: 6
527: 6
528: 12
529: 10
530: 12
531: 15
532: 7
+ 533: 23
534: 15

Level 62:
Melee
464: 1
466: 2
467: 1
469: 3
470: 3
472: 37
473: 43
474: 31
475: 31
476: 33
477: 43
478: 35
479: 51
480: 41
481: 40
482: 38
^ 483: 36
484: 31
485: 39
+ 486: 59
487: 37
488: 40
489: 28
490: 32
491: 29
492: 49
493: 27
494: 27
495: 32
Melee Crits
509: 9
510: 13
511: 11
513: 6
514: 7
515: 5
516: 10
517: 7
518: 5
519: 12
520: 9
521: 11
^ 522: 8
523: 10
524: 4
525: 7
527: 7
528: 11
529: 12
530: 6
531: 5
532: 13
533: 7
+ 534: 18

Level 61:
Melee
472: 42
473: 43
474: 33
475: 33
476: 25
477: 39
478: 35
479: 35
480: 33
481: 28
482: 35
^ 483: 44
484: 35
485: 42
486: 30
487: 28
488: 32
489: 25
490: 30
491: 31
492: 36
+ 493: 45
494: 38
495: 29
498: 2
503: 2
507: 2
509: 2
511: 2
Melee Crits
509: 6
510: 6
511: 7
513: 5
514: 6
515: 6
516: 3
517: 7
518: 6
519: 7
520: 7
521: 2
522: 4
^ 523: 9
524: 6
525: 10
527: 10
528: 4
529: 6
530: 1
531: 8
532: 10
533: 8
+ 534: 12



Edited, Feb 1st 2013 11:39am by Xilk

Edited, Feb 1st 2013 11:40am by Xilk
____________________________
Server: Bahamut
90BST|90BLU
LS: MONSTERSINC

Choh Moui | Rongo-Nango | Lhu Mhakaracca | Lungo-Nango | Nyumomo
--Beastmaster Forever--
#370 Feb 01 2013 at 2:29 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
For level 61, distribution between 472 and 495 damage is pretty much even. There are 5 hits above 495 that don't make sense, where each occurred once. Some spurious effect?

For level 62, even distribution between 472 and 495, with a single hit that dropped below that. If there was no -pDif offset (ie: the base cRatio was exactly 4.0, and spread is entirely upwards), the frequency of the <4.0 hits should have been higher, and should have covered 470-471 as well.

For level 63, there's a low rate below 4.0, and a higher rate above 4.0. Each half of those appears to have fairly even distribution within its range.

For level 64: similar to level 63.


Combined totals:

Level 61: Same as the single parse. Also interesting to note that the exact same damage values over 495 got an extra spurious hit in there.

Levels 62-64: Same split, even distribution within each range (above and below 4.0).

Combined mins:
61: 472
62: 464
63: 458
64: 450

Given the spread, I'd anticipate 457 possibly being a true min for level 63 (8 points between 64 and 63, but 6 points between 63 and 62); however there were 4 instances of 458, so it might just be a flooring issue.

Min pDifs:
61: 4.0
62: 3.9322 - 3.9407 [3.94]
63: 3.8814 - 3.8898 [3.88?]
64: 3.8136 - 3.8220 [3.82]


Given that the only shift has to be constrained to level correction, the only way these numbers make sense is with +0.06 per level. Each of them contains the range of such an offset, except for level 63, and given that 63 appeared likely to have 457 as a 'true' minimum; that 457 would match a 3.88 cRatio; and that the pDif range for 458 damage doesn't contain either 3.88 or 3.89, it seems extremely likely that level 63 should be 3.88.


Now, what is likely the total pDif range (min to max)?

Lost to 1.05 spread (approximate):
62: 85% of hits below 4.0 (70% at min, 100% at max)
63: 69% of hits below 4.0 (38% at min, 100% at max)
64: 53% of hits below 4.0 (6% at min, 100% at max)

Combine that with the observed rate of hits below 4.0:

62: 10 hits below, 889 above. 1.1% of all hits below 4.0
63: 53 hits below, 953 above. 5.3% of all hits below 4.0
64: 133 hits below, 979 above. 12.0% of all hits below 4.0

And we can make a rough guess as to the size of the full pDif range:
62: 0.818
63: 0.702
64: 0.705

The small sample size of level 62 leaves us with a fairly wide margin of error. However it's fairly close to the other two values, and those two match each other. We can assume the full pDif range to have a width of approximately 0.7.

The full width of the pDif range at 3.0 cRatio is 0.75, with min and max offsets capped at 0.375 each. With the above numbers, it's not implausible that the full range is still that same 0.75.

However one must also note that the level 61 mobs' level correction + offset has to land at almost exactly 4.0, in order for the higher mobs to show -0.06 per level. This is likely to be deliberate. That also means that 0.375 is not quite viable as a pDif offset. 0.36 would be a better match, should the total pDif range be closer to 0.72.

TEST: You could determine the full width by sampling mobs of at least level 70 (preferably mobs with low defense, such as Colibri), as that should reduce cRatio enough that the max pDif should be below 4.0, while we can still use the crit damage to determine the base weapon damage without worrying about determining str and vit. You'll want max attack on this test just to be sure that Ratio is remaining capped.

#371 Feb 01 2013 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
2,098 posts
I already have parses w/ what you are asking for. I made them when trying to find what point the pdif would cap at 4.0.
Here's my summary of parses vs a few levels of Seaboard Vultures and Peiste from the previous page. I'll add the offense details as well.

 
seaboard vulture 
              	Def	Hits	M.low	M.high	C.Hits	C.low	C.high 
Lvl 83        	355	254	287	401	35	461	515 
att + 62	355	272	301	403	28	455	515 
Lvl 84        	361	325	289	387	39	444	511 
att + 62	361	178	296	394	21	460	508 


 
Peiste 73~76	Def	Hits	M.low	M.high	C.Hits	C.low	C.high 
73 (44xp)	310	142	368	466	22	488	511 
74 (47 xp)	315	264	365	466	40	488	511 
75 (50 xp)	320	263	354	455	38	483	507 
76 (52 xp)	325	200	350	449	33	483	507 
							 
ATT +62							 
Peiste 73~76	Def	Hits	M.low	M.high	C.Hits	C.low	C.high 
73 (44xp)	310	247	371	474	26	489	511 
74 (47 xp)	315	255	360	465	38	489	511 
75 (50 xp)	320	196	355	455	32	483	507 
76 (52 xp)	325	252	349	445	40	483	507 


no pet att+
Level 76 Peiste:

Melee
350: 1
352: 1
354: 2
356: 1
358: 2
359: 4
360: 5
361: 1
363: 2
364: 4
365: 2
367: 2
368: 2
369: 2
370: 1
371: 2
373: 3
374: 1
375: 1
376: 2
377: 1
378: 1
379: 2
380: 4
381: 4
382: 1
383: 2
+ 384: 7
385: 3
386: 1
388: 2
389: 1
390: 2
392: 2
393: 3
394: 1
395: 2
396: 1
397: 1
^ 398: 2
399: 3
400: 6
401: 3
402: 3
403: 1
405: 2
406: 1
407: 5
408: 3
409: 1
410: 1
411: 1
413: 1
414: 3
415: 2
419: 3
420: 4
421: 2
422: 2
424: 1
425: 2
427: 2
428: 2
429: 2
430: 1
431: 2
432: 1
433: 3
434: 3
435: 1
436: 2
437: 2
440: 2
441: 3
443: 1
444: 2
445: 2
446: 1
449: 1
Melee Crits
483: 1
485: 2
486: 1
487: 2
+ 488: 3
490: 1
491: 1
492: 2
493: 2
+^ 496: 3
+ 497: 3
498: 1
499: 1
500: 2
501: 2
+ 502: 3
505: 2
507: 1

Level 75 Peiste

Melee
354: 2
357: 2
359: 1
362: 1
363: 2
364: 3
366: 1
367: 3
368: 1
369: 1
370: 1
371: 3
372: 3
373: 3
374: 4
375: 4
377: 2
378: 5
379: 2
380: 3
381: 1
382: 3
383: 3
386: 4
387: 4
388: 3
390: 2
392: 3
393: 3
394: 3
395: 1
396: 4
397: 1
398: 2
399: 3
+ 400: 6
401: 4
402: 5
403: 4
404: 3
405: 1
^ 406: 3
407: 4
408: 1
409: 3
410: 3
411: 3
412: 2
413: 3
414: 5
415: 1
416: 2
417: 2
418: 5
419: 1
420: 2
421: 2
423: 3
424: 1
425: 4
426: 2
427: 4
428: 2
429: 3
431: 2
432: 4
434: 5
435: 4
436: 2
437: 4
438: 3
439: 2
440: 3
441: 2
442: 4
443: 2
444: 2
445: 3
446: 1
447: 3
448: 3
451: 2
452: 1
453: 1
455: 1
Melee Crits
483: 3
484: 2
485: 1
486: 2
487: 3
491: 1
492: 2
493: 3
495: 1
496: 1
^ 497: 2
498: 2
+ 500: 4
501: 3
502: 1
503: 3
505: 1
506: 2
507: 1

Level 74 Peiste

Melee
365: 2
366: 3
367: 1
370: 2
371: 5
372: 3
373: 1
374: 2
375: 4
376: 2
377: 3
378: 6
379: 1
380: 4
381: 4
382: 2
383: 1
384: 2
385: 2
386: 3
387: 5
388: 2
389: 1
390: 1
391: 2
392: 3
393: 6
394: 4
395: 2
396: 2
397: 2
398: 4
399: 4
400: 4
402: 1
403: 4
404: 2
405: 3
406: 2
407: 3
408: 1
411: 1
^ 412: 1
413: 4
414: 4
415: 1
417: 2
418: 2
419: 3
420: 1
421: 3
422: 5
423: 1
424: 4
425: 1
426: 6
427: 2
428: 1
429: 2
430: 4
431: 4
432: 5
433: 4
434: 3
435: 3
436: 2
437: 1
438: 2
439: 4
440: 1
441: 1
442: 1
+ 444: 7
445: 1
446: 4
447: 3
449: 1
450: 2
451: 2
453: 1
454: 1
455: 1
456: 2
457: 2
458: 3
461: 1
462: 1
463: 1
466: 1
Melee Crits
488: 2
489: 1
490: 2
491: 2
492: 2
493: 2
495: 1
496: 3
497: 2
500: 3
+^ 501: 6
502: 2
503: 2
504: 2
505: 2
506: 2
509: 2
510: 1
511: 1

Level 73 Peiste
Melee
368: 1
377: 2
378: 1
379: 1
380: 2
381: 1
382: 2
383: 2
384: 2
386: 2
387: 1
392: 1
393: 1
394: 2
397: 1
398: 1
399: 2
400: 2
401: 4
402: 1
403: 3
404: 3
406: 1
407: 3
408: 2
409: 1
411: 4
412: 2
414: 1
419: 3
420: 3
421: 1
422: 3
423: 3
424: 1
425: 2
^ 426: 4
427: 2
+ 428: 6
429: 4
430: 2
433: 3
434: 3
435: 2
436: 2
437: 1
438: 2
440: 1
441: 1
442: 1
443: 1
444: 5
445: 2
446: 1
447: 1
448: 4
449: 1
450: 1
451: 2
452: 2
453: 2
454: 3
455: 3
456: 1
457: 1
458: 3
459: 1
460: 1
461: 1
462: 1
463: 1
466: 1
Melee Crits
488: 2
489: 1
493: 1
494: 2
496: 1
497: 1
+ 498: 3
^ 502: 2
503: 2
505: 2
507: 1
508: 1
510: 1
511: 2


Pet attack +62
Level 76 peiste
Melee
349: 1
350: 3
353: 2
354: 2
355: 1
356: 1
357: 2
358: 1
359: 3
360: 1
361: 3
362: 2
364: 2
365: 3
366: 4
367: 4
368: 4
369: 2
370: 4
371: 3
372: 4
373: 2
374: 2
376: 3
377: 2
378: 1
379: 2
380: 5
381: 4
382: 3
383: 4
385: 1
386: 1
387: 2
389: 3
390: 2
391: 1
392: 6
393: 1
395: 4
396: 1
397: 4
^ 398: 1
+ 399: 8
401: 5
402: 3
403: 5
404: 1
405: 2
406: 5
407: 3
408: 2
409: 3
410: 2
411: 3
412: 3
413: 2
414: 2
415: 2
417: 3
418: 3
420: 1
421: 1
422: 4
424: 6
425: 6
426: 1
427: 2
428: 2
429: 2
430: 4
431: 2
432: 2
433: 2
434: 3
436: 2
437: 3
438: 1
439: 1
441: 2
445: 1
Melee Crits
483: 2
485: 1
486: 2
487: 3
488: 1
490: 1
491: 3
+ 492: 4
493: 3
^ 494: 1
495: 1
496: 2
497: 1
498: 1
499: 2
500: 2
501: 2
502: 3
505: 3
506: 1
507: 1

Level 75 Peiste
Melee
355: 1
356: 1
357: 1
359: 2
360: 1
361: 1
362: 2
364: 2
365: 1
366: 1
368: 1
369: 5
370: 3
371: 2
372: 4
373: 1
374: 2
375: 5
376: 3
378: 3
379: 1
380: 4
381: 2
383: 2
384: 4
385: 1
386: 1
387: 1
388: 5
389: 2
390: 1
392: 1
393: 2
394: 1
395: 1
396: 2
398: 2
399: 3
400: 3
^ 401: 3
402: 2
403: 3
404: 2
406: 4
407: 3
409: 3
410: 3
411: 2
412: 2
413: 4
414: 1
416: 1
417: 1
419: 1
421: 1
422: 2
423: 1
424: 3
426: 3
427: 3
428: 1
+ 429: 6
431: 2
432: 1
433: 1
434: 2
435: 3
436: 1
437: 2
438: 1
439: 3
440: 2
441: 1
442: 2
443: 1
449: 3
450: 1
452: 1
455: 1
Melee Crits
483: 1
485: 1
486: 2
487: 1
488: 1
490: 2
491: 3
492: 1
493: 2
+^ 494: 4
495: 1
496: 1
497: 1
498: 1
500: 1
501: 1
502: 2
503: 3
505: 1
507: 2

Level 74 Peiste
Melee
360: 2
361: 1
362: 2
366: 1
370: 1
371: 1
372: 1
373: 2
374: 1
375: 3
376: 2
377: 1
378: 1
379: 2
380: 1
381: 1
384: 2
385: 1
386: 3
387: 3
388: 3
389: 2
390: 4
391: 2
392: 1
393: 3
394: 5
395: 2
+ 396: 7
400: 4
401: 2
402: 3
403: 5
404: 1
405: 1
407: 3
408: 1
409: 5
410: 3
411: 3
412: 2
413: 4
414: 3
415: 2
416: 2
^ 417: 4
418: 2
419: 3
420: 2
421: 2
422: 1
423: 2
+ 424: 7
425: 3
427: 5
428: 2
429: 1
430: 4
432: 4
433: 5
434: 4
435: 1
436: 2
437: 5
438: 3
439: 1
440: 5
441: 2
442: 4
443: 6
444: 3
445: 4
446: 1
447: 2
448: 2
450: 3
451: 3
452: 1
454: 3
456: 3
461: 4
462: 1
463: 1
465: 1
Melee Crits
489: 1
490: 1
491: 2
492: 1
493: 1
+ 495: 5
496: 2
497: 1
498: 2
501: 2
^ 503: 2
504: 3
505: 2
506: 2
507: 3
508: 2
509: 4
510: 1
511: 1

Level 73 Peiste

Melee
371: 3
372: 2
374: 2
375: 1
376: 1
378: 1
380: 1
381: 1
382: 3
383: 2
386: 1
387: 4
388: 1
389: 2
390: 1
+ 391: 6
392: 1
393: 1
394: 2
395: 2
396: 2
397: 5
398: 2
399: 3
400: 2
401: 2
402: 2
403: 3
404: 3
406: 5
407: 3
408: 2
+ 410: 6
411: 3
412: 1
413: 2
414: 3
415: 2
416: 1
417: 3
418: 3
419: 4
^ 421: 3
422: 2
423: 2
424: 1
425: 3
426: 3
427: 2
428: 2
429: 2
430: 3
431: 3
433: 1
434: 4
435: 4
436: 2
438: 2
439: 3
440: 1
441: 2
442: 1
+ 443: 6
444: 1
445: 2
446: 3
447: 4
448: 2
449: 2
450: 3
451: 2
452: 3
453: 4
454: 5
455: 2
456: 4
457: 1
458: 2
459: 1
460: 1
461: 2
462: 2
463: 1
465: 2
468: 1
470: 1
474: 1
Melee Crits
489: 2
490: 1
491: 3
492: 2
+ 494: 5
495: 2
496: 2
497: 2
498: 2
^ 501: 2
502: 1
503: 3
+ 504: 5
505: 3
506: 1
507: 3
508: 2
510: 1
511: 1



Edited, Feb 1st 2013 7:06pm by Xilk
____________________________
Server: Bahamut
90BST|90BLU
LS: MONSTERSINC

Choh Moui | Rongo-Nango | Lhu Mhakaracca | Lungo-Nango | Nyumomo
--Beastmaster Forever--
#372 Feb 01 2013 at 6:11 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
2,098 posts
No Pet Attack +
Seaboard Vulture
Level 83
Melee
287: 1
298: 1
300: 1
301: 1
302: 1
303: 1
305: 1
306: 3
307: 1
308: 3
309: 1
310: 2
311: 1
312: 2
313: 3
314: 5
315: 3
316: 3
317: 3
318: 1
319: 3
320: 1
321: 3
322: 2
323: 5
324: 3
325: 2
326: 2
327: 1
328: 3
329: 2
330: 3
331: 2
332: 5
333: 1
334: 5
335: 5
336: 4
338: 5
340: 3
341: 3
342: 2
344: 4
345: 3
346: 2
347: 2
^ 348: 4
349: 1
350: 4
351: 1
352: 3
353: 3
354: 2
355: 2
356: 2
357: 4
358: 4
359: 2
360: 2
361: 2
362: 3
363: 7
364: 4
366: 2
367: 4
+ 368: 8
369: 3
371: 3
373: 2
374: 1
375: 2
377: 1
378: 2
379: 2
380: 1
381: 1
382: 1
383: 5
384: 4
385: 3
386: 2
387: 1
389: 1
390: 2
391: 3
392: 2
393: 1
394: 1
395: 2
398: 1
400: 1
401: 2
Melee Crits
461: 1
464: 1
465: 1
469: 1
474: 1
475: 1
477: 1
481: 2
483: 2
484: 2
486: 1
489: 1
492: 1
493: 3
494: 1
^ 496: 3
497: 1
498: 1
500: 2
501: 1
502: 2
506: 1
508: 1
+ 509: 5
510: 3
513: 1
515: 1

Level 84
Melee
289: 1
294: 1
295: 3
297: 4
298: 3
299: 3
300: 2
301: 1
302: 4
303: 2
304: 3
305: 4
306: 1
307: 6
308: 2
309: 1
+ 310: 7
311: 1
312: 6
314: 3
315: 3
316: 5
317: 5
318: 3
319: 2
320: 3
321: 4
322: 4
323: 4
324: 4
325: 2
326: 4
327: 3
328: 2
329: 4
330: 1
331: 2
332: 1
333: 5
334: 3
335: 4
336: 1
337: 2
338: 3
339: 1
340: 1
341: 2
342: 1
343: 3
344: 3
^ 345: 2
346: 3
347: 5
348: 6
349: 1
350: 4
351: 3
352: 3
353: 2
354: 6
355: 4
356: 5
357: 2
358: 3
359: 3
360: 2
361: 4
+ 362: 7
363: 2
364: 3
365: 4
366: 4
+ 367: 7
368: 4
369: 3
370: 5
371: 4
372: 2
373: 3
374: 5
+ 375: 7
376: 4
377: 4
378: 1
379: 1
380: 1
381: 2
383: 3
384: 1
385: 3
386: 3
387: 2
Melee Crits
444: 1
452: 1
456: 1
457: 1
460: 1
461: 1
465: 1
468: 1
473: 1
474: 2
475: 1
477: 1
480: 2
481: 1
482: 1
483: 1
487: 1
^ 488: 1
489: 1
492: 1
+ 493: 3
494: 1
495: 1
496: 1
497: 2
498: 1
500: 1
502: 1
504: 1
506: 2
507: 1
509: 1
511: 1

Pet Attack + 62
Level 83

Melee
301: 1
302: 1
303: 2
305: 1
306: 2
308: 2
309: 2
310: 4
311: 4
312: 1
313: 6
314: 4
315: 2
316: 2
317: 3
318: 1
319: 5
320: 3
321: 4
322: 3
323: 5
324: 2
325: 5
327: 3
328: 1
330: 1
331: 2
333: 3
334: 3
335: 4
336: 2
337: 2
338: 3
339: 2
341: 3
342: 5
343: 3
344: 1
346: 4
347: 4
348: 4
349: 2
350: 1
351: 2
+^ 352: 7
353: 1
354: 4
355: 1
356: 3
357: 5
358: 4
359: 1
360: 2
361: 6
362: 4
363: 2
364: 3
365: 3
366: 5
367: 2
368: 1
370: 4
371: 3
372: 3
374: 5
375: 3
376: 5
377: 3
378: 4
379: 2
380: 2
381: 4
383: 4
384: 2
385: 1
386: 3
388: 4
390: 2
391: 3
392: 5
395: 1
396: 1
397: 1
399: 1
401: 1
402: 1
403: 2
Melee Crits
455: 1
457: 1
463: 2
465: 2
467: 1
468: 1
476: 1
482: 1
489: 1
492: 1
494: 1
496: 1
^ 497: 1
500: 2
502: 1
506: 1
508: 1
509: 1
510: 1
+ 513: 3
514: 1
515: 2


Level 84

Melee
296: 1
299: 1
300: 1
301: 1
302: 1
303: 1
305: 2
306: 3
307: 3
308: 2
309: 1
310: 1
311: 3
312: 1
313: 2
314: 4
317: 2
321: 1
322: 1
323: 3
324: 5
325: 1
326: 2
327: 3
328: 2
329: 3
330: 2
331: 1
332: 2
333: 2
334: 2
335: 1
336: 3
337: 5
338: 2
339: 2
340: 4
341: 1
^ 342: 1
343: 3
344: 2
345: 3
346: 1
347: 1
+ 349: 6
350: 1
351: 3
352: 1
354: 4
356: 1
357: 1
359: 1
360: 4
361: 1
362: 2
363: 2
364: 2
365: 1
366: 3
368: 1
369: 2
370: 1
371: 2
374: 3
375: 2
376: 2
377: 1
378: 3
379: 2
381: 3
382: 3
383: 2
384: 1
385: 2
388: 1
390: 1
391: 1
392: 1
394: 1
Melee Crits
460: 1
466: 1
468: 1
+ 471: 2
475: 1
476: 1
+ 477: 2
479: 1
^ 489: 1
491: 1
493: 1
495: 1
497: 1
501: 1
502: 1
503: 1
504: 1
506: 1
508: 1

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#373 Feb 01 2013 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
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As far as those strange numbers go, they are all on 1 fight.
number 126 if I manually select them from the custom mob filter for that file...

GorefangHobs
Melee
+ 498: 1
+ 503: 1
+^ 507: 1
+ 509: 1
+ 511: 1
Melee Crits
+^ 534: 1
Seems this fight only has strange numbers. I'm not sure exactly what happened. Raw data appears to look correct.
It looks like it really happened, but that doesn't really make sense.
I rejoined the parses into 1 again from the originals and the same effect happened that it doubled... even though those values are not found in the other parse...
occasionally the summary also shows min melee damage as 0 for pet and I have to hunt down the actual lowest value....



Edited, Feb 1st 2013 7:37pm by Xilk
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#374 Feb 02 2013 at 12:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ok.

Peistes

Consideration: Low number of crits, so no guarantee of hitting true limits, so allowing for that.

Lvl 73-74, max crit of 511; 4.0 should be 487. Minimum recorded was 488 and 489 in the two parses. If 488 is min, max should be 512.
Lvl 75-76, max crit is 507; 4.0 should be 483. Matches observed.

Extract 8% crit bonus
73-74: If 4.0 crit was 487, this would be 451, which is not divisible by 4. If 4.0 is 488, this is 452. Probable 452.
75-76: With 4.0 of 483, this is 448. Divisible by 4.

Base damage:
73-74: 452/4 = 113
75-76: 448/4 = 112

Lvl 73 with no +att had the same max damage as lvl 74, so 73 is probably not at true max pDif. With +att, its max went higher. Similarly with the others... I don't see anything to indicate that the observed damages were not at capped attack, just varying due to relatively low sample size. Will just use the lower of the two mins, and the higher of the two maxes.

First, factor out the 1.05 spread:
 
Lvl  Max    /1.05 
73:  474    452 (note: == 4.0) 
74:  466    444 
75:  455    434 
76:  449    428 

Note that those are the lowest that the max pDif can be; it's possible for it to be higher.

Now look at the base pDif range
 
Lvl  Range        Diff      pDif Range 
73: 368 - 452      84       0.743 
74: 360 - 444      84       0.743 
75: 354 - 434      80       0.714 
76: 349 - 428      79       0.705 

Given that the max pDif value can potentially be higher than listed, we should tend towards the maximim pDif range values as being closest to correct. That points us towards 0.75 as the likeliest value for the full range.


That gives us the trivial look at things. Next, pulling up the details...

Lvl 73 -- The parse with +att pushed towards the top end of 4.0 * 1.05, which implies the max pDif possibly went slightly above 4.0 in order to get a fair numbers of samples in that range, but at the very least hit exactly 4.0. The min damage on that was 371, with other observed min damage values nearby that are sufficienctly close-packed that it seems unlikely for true min to be more than a point or two below it. 452 - 371 is an 81 point difference; much closer to the level 75-76 data.

The parse without +att also had a significant gap between its lowest value (368) and its second-lowest value (377), which disturbs me, as it feels out of place. However with the low number of samples, there's the risk of such gaps.

Lvl 74 -- The parse without any +att had a min-max difference of 79. Given that just about every single damage point was hit between the two extremes, the lack of any values between 360 (min observed in the +att parse) and 365 disturbs me. 79 puts it in the same range as the level 75-76 parses.

Lvl 75 -- Did not have any oddities at either extreme of either parse. Min/max on both parses was also almost the same.

Lvl 76 -- Parse with +att was a bit sparse on the upper end, where its top two values were 445 and 441. The parse without +att had several values between 443 and 449. Sparsity is somewhat acceptable due to the low number of samples.


If we put aside those values which seem problematic, we get:

Now look at the base pDif range
 
Lvl  Range        Diff      pDif Range 
73: 371 - 452      81       0.717 
74: 365 - 444      84       0.699 
75: 354 - 434      80       0.714 
76: 349 - 428      79       0.705 


Which puts it in line with a 0.72 max range.


Now the question is, are those problematic data points 'real'? If they are, then that implies a full pDif range of 0.75, though also giving us an uncomfortable gap between the 73-74 data and the 75-76 data (though it could be explained by low sample sizes). If they are not then we have a nice pDif range that is consistent across levels, but we need to find out how those anomolous values could come about.



Vultures

Lvl 83
Base damage: 114
Min outlier: 287. Otherwise, mins of 298 and 301.
Max 403 => 384
Diff: 86, or 97 with outlier
Range: 0.754, or 0.851 with outlier

Lvl 84
Base damage: 113
Min outlier: 289. Otherwise, mins of 294 and 296.
Max 394 => 376
Diff: 82, or 87 with outlier
Range: 0.726, or 0.770 with outlier

Both of these lend themselves towards a pDif range of 0.75, though they also have outlier issues.




Expected cRatio values, if we assume +0.06 per level:

Peiste
73: 3.56
74: 3.50
75: 3.44
76: 3.38
Vulture
83: 2.96
84: 2.90

Expected min pDif and min damage values for -0.36 and -0.375 offsets:
 
Peiste     Min -0.36   Min Dmg   Min -0.375   Min Dmg   Obs.Min  Outlier 
73:             3.20       361        3.185       359       371      368 
74:             3.14       354        3.125       353       365 
75:             3.08       344        3.065       343       354 
76:             3.02       338        3.005       336       349 
Vulture 
83:             2.60       296        2.585       294       298      287 
84:             2.54       287        2.525       285       294      289 


And these don't match up. Predicted for the peistes is significantly lower than observed (~10 points), though predicted for vultures is not too far off.

On the other hand, we can show that the 289 outlier on lvl 84 vultures is well within expected range. With the difference in level correction plus the difference in base damage, a 9 point difference in the min between the 83 and 84 vultures should be expected. The outlier 289 is 9 points lower than the non-outlier 298 from the lvl 83 vultures. The 287 outlier on level 83 vultures is still untenable, though.


We can use the observed mins, and an assumed pDif offset (either -0.36 or -0.375) to back-calculate an estimated level correction for each of these.

 
Peiste     Obs.Min  Outlier     pDif   Lvl Corr. Raw    Lvl Corr. 0.36   Lvl Corr. 0.375 
73:            371            3.2832           0.049            0.0632            0.0638 
73:                     368   3.2566           0.048            0.0623            0.0628 
74:            365            3.2301           0.049            0.0636            0.0642 
75:            354            3.1607           0.048            0.0634            0.0640 
76:            349            3.1161           0.049            0.0642            0.0648 
Vulture 
83:            298            2.6140           0.038            0.0609            0.0618 
83:                     287   2.5175           0.032            0.0548            0.0558 
84:            289            2.5575           0.037            0.0612            0.0622 


And here we come across something quite peculiar. When doing the calculations I forgot to add in the assumed pDif offset before dividing by the level correction on one of the numbers, and ended up with something very close to our normal 0.05, remaining stable across those levels. That's the Lvl Corr. Raw column. However that only worked for the Peistes.

I would be most curious to see if that change occurred at level 79 mobs (-20 levels of correction). That could have some interesting implications.

On the other hand, most of the other numbers have problems. Adding the assumed pDif offset yields a level correction value that's too high, for the peistes, and none of the numbers for vultures returned a decent level correction value -- the raw value is too low for anything, and the +pDif value is higher than it should be.

The vultures could get a 0.05 level correction if the pDif offset was -0.20 for the min, but that's heavily skewed towards the positive side, given the full pDif range.

I have a couple ideas about what could be going on, but I'm going to need more data. There's a couple strange possibilities, but I need another data axis to triangulate from.

TEST: More data sets on any/all of the same mobs, but level capped at level 90 instead of 99, while keeping capped attack. Take a rdm along for Dia III or something, if you need to.

TEST extra: More data on the peistes just to help fill out the edges.

#375 Feb 02 2013 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
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I did some more Avatar tests here: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/114636-Monster-Avatar-Pet-damage?p=5584624&viewfull=1#post5584624

Do you guys see the same uncapped pDIF with jug pet TP moves against low level mobs?

Edited, Feb 2nd 2013 10:21am by Byrthnoth
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#376 Feb 02 2013 at 6:06 PM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
I did some more Avatar tests here: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/114636-Monster-Avatar-Pet-damage?p=5584624&viewfull=1#post5584624

Do you guys see the same uncapped pDIF with jug pet TP moves against low level mobs?

Edited, Feb 2nd 2013 10:21am by Byrthnoth


aside from fantod, which just makes 4x damage, I saw some of the ready moves do as much as ~1800 iirc.
It was more common to have them ~1200

Some don't do more damage than melee hits.
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#377 Feb 03 2013 at 7:44 AM Rating: Good
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No, I mean that when a Jug pet hits Level 0 monsters in East Ronfarue, they hit for 4~4.2 pDIF. That's 5% variation (4.2/4). If you spam Foot Kick or some TP move, do you still see 5% variation or do you see more than that?
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#378 Feb 03 2013 at 9:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dunno if it's what you're looking for, but like this?
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#379 Feb 03 2013 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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Okay 621/592 = 1.0489...

So there's no Ratio cap on Ready moves. Head Butt's base damage, for instance, is 148. Merle's base damage listed on the first page is 64 (this probably includes fSTR), which would be 84 base damage low. This means the max fTP for Head **** is 2.3125 (148/64).

I think I'm going to try to modify Avatar BP damage in Abyssea using Atma of the Hateful Stream/Echoes with low level SMN BPs because they have skillchain properties.
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#380 Feb 03 2013 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Okay 621/592 = 1.0489...

So there's no Ratio cap on Ready moves. Head Butt's base damage, for instance, is 148. Merle's base damage listed on the first page is 64 (this probably includes fSTR), which would be 84 base damage low. This means the max fTP for Head **** is 2.3125 (148/64).

I think I'm going to try to modify Avatar BP damage in Abyssea using Atma of the Hateful Stream/Echoes with low level SMN BPs because they have skillchain properties.


The first page is not level 99 pets. Level 99 numbers are somewhere around page 6 iirc....
I suppose I should update the first page. I didn't have the thread organized when I started it.

anyway, Merle's base damage vs level 0 mobs is 73
and yes, that includes fSTR.

edit: Updated table on first page for level 99 pet stats.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2013 5:43pm by Xilk
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#381 Feb 03 2013 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
TEST: More data sets on any/all of the same mobs, but level capped at level 90 instead of 99, while keeping capped attack. Take a rdm along for Dia III or something, if you need to.

TEST extra: More data on the peistes just to help fill out the edges.


All my tests so far have been w/ Gorefang Hobs whose min level is 93.
I can certainly add more peiste to the level 99 samples I have to fill it out. However, for the other test, woudl level 93 be alright? or do we need samples of an entirely different pet? (frankly I kinda wish I'd gone w/ gooey or fargann vs birds, cuz the vultures only have 2 levels and there is no aggro to avoid). Also, Its best to collect samples when monster correlation is in your favor to take advantage of the attack+ from ferine cabasset +2. That + aymur are by far the largest attack+ sources.
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#382 Feb 04 2013 at 1:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yes, level 93 Hobs would work ok.
#383 Feb 04 2013 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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I filled up the Peiste samples vs level 99 Hobs. This includes previous ones, but its ~500 hits/level now.
level 73 Peiste:
Melee
368: 1
370: 1
372: 1
373: 2
374: 1
375: 5
376: 2
377: 3
378: 5
379: 4
380: 3
381: 3
382: 6
383: 3
384: 4
385: 1
386: 3
387: 3
388: 2
390: 1
391: 4
392: 6
393: 5
394: 6
395: 6
396: 8
397: 6
398: 6
399: 3
400: 8
401: 8
402: 6
403: 4
404: 5
406: 8
407: 5
408: 4
409: 3
411: 8
412: 9
413: 2
414: 2
415: 3
416: 2
417: 7
419: 7
420: 7
421: 2
422: 7
^ 423: 7
424: 6
425: 7
+ 426: 11
427: 6
428: 8
429: 9
430: 9
431: 7
432: 3
433: 5
434: 7
435: 3
436: 5
437: 5
438: 4
439: 3
440: 3
441: 7
442: 8
443: 3
444: 7
445: 4
446: 5
447: 7
448: 7
449: 5
450: 6
451: 5
452: 4
453: 4
454: 4
455: 3
456: 1
457: 4
458: 3
459: 1
460: 4
461: 3
462: 1
463: 2
464: 1
465: 2
466: 3
467: 1
470: 1
Melee Crits
488: 4
489: 3
492: 5
493: 1
494: 3
495: 1
496: 3
497: 1
+ 498: 6
500: 1
^ 501: 1
502: 4
503: 5
504: 1
505: 4
507: 1
508: 4
509: 1
510: 2
511: 5

Level 74 Peiste
Melee
365: 2
366: 5
367: 3
369: 1
370: 4
371: 6
372: 7
373: 5
374: 6
375: 6
376: 3
377: 5
378: 11
379: 2
380: 11
381: 9
382: 5
383: 3
384: 5
385: 3
386: 9
387: 6
388: 7
389: 7
390: 3
391: 5
392: 6
393: 8
394: 6
395: 3
396: 3
397: 4
398: 5
399: 7
400: 8
401: 5
402: 3
403: 6
404: 7
405: 7
406: 7
407: 6
408: 1
409: 2
410: 3
411: 2
^ 412: 5
413: 8
+ 414: 13
415: 4
416: 1
417: 3
418: 5
419: 4
420: 2
421: 7
422: 9
423: 2
424: 6
425: 2
426: 9
427: 3
428: 6
429: 2
430: 6
431: 7
432: 7
433: 9
434: 8
435: 8
436: 4
437: 1
438: 5
439: 6
440: 4
441: 3
442: 4
443: 2
444: 10
445: 6
446: 5
447: 9
448: 3
449: 4
450: 4
451: 4
452: 2
453: 3
454: 3
455: 4
456: 4
457: 3
458: 3
459: 2
461: 2
462: 2
463: 2
466: 1
Melee Crits
488: 3
489: 1
490: 4
491: 5
492: 5
493: 4
494: 2
495: 4
496: 4
497: 4
498: 3
^ 500: 6
+ 501: 8
502: 4
503: 5
504: 3
505: 2
506: 5
507: 2
508: 4
509: 3
510: 2
511: 3

Level 75
Melee
354: 3
357: 3
358: 1
359: 3
360: 2
361: 3
362: 3
363: 3
364: 6
365: 3
366: 5
367: 5
368: 3
369: 4
370: 2
371: 7
372: 7
373: 9
374: 6
375: 9
376: 2
377: 3
378: 9
379: 5
380: 5
381: 5
382: 6
383: 5
384: 2
385: 7
386: 5
387: 10
388: 7
389: 7
390: 3
391: 3
392: 6
393: 9
394: 5
395: 6
396: 8
397: 8
398: 5
399: 5
+ 400: 11
401: 9
402: 8
403: 6
404: 4
405: 1
^ 406: 6
407: 7
408: 3
+ 409: 11
410: 7
411: 6
412: 4
413: 7
414: 8
415: 4
416: 5
417: 5
418: 8
419: 7
420: 7
421: 6
422: 3
423: 8
424: 4
425: 8
426: 3
427: 7
428: 9
429: 5
430: 8
431: 3
432: 8
433: 5
434: 6
435: 6
436: 5
437: 7
438: 6
439: 8
440: 7
441: 6
442: 4
443: 5
444: 5
445: 7
446: 3
447: 4
448: 3
449: 2
450: 2
451: 4
452: 2
453: 1
455: 1
456: 1
458: 1
Melee Crits
483: 5
484: 7
+ 485: 9
486: 3
487: 5
488: 1
490: 2
491: 4
492: 6
493: 8
494: 2
495: 2
^ 496: 4
497: 4
498: 4
499: 3
500: 7
501: 8
502: 4
503: 6
505: 4
506: 6
507: 5

Level 76
Melee
346: 1
347: 2
350: 1
351: 1
352: 3
353: 3
354: 2
355: 1
356: 4
357: 1
358: 5
359: 8
360: 9
361: 5
362: 5
363: 7
364: 7
365: 6
366: 2
367: 3
368: 7
369: 6
370: 5
371: 7
372: 3
373: 6
374: 4
375: 2
376: 2
377: 4
378: 4
379: 2
380: 5
381: 7
382: 6
383: 4
+ 384: 12
385: 6
386: 4
387: 3
388: 9
389: 4
390: 10
391: 4
392: 5
393: 6
394: 2
395: 5
396: 5
397: 2
^ 398: 5
399: 5
+ 400: 12
401: 6
402: 5
403: 3
404: 5
405: 7
406: 6
407: 9
408: 7
409: 3
410: 2
411: 6
412: 1
413: 2
414: 4
415: 7
416: 4
417: 2
418: 4
419: 6
420: 8
421: 7
422: 5
423: 4
424: 4
425: 7
426: 3
427: 6
428: 10
429: 2
430: 3
431: 4
432: 4
433: 4
434: 7
435: 3
436: 5
437: 4
438: 1
439: 1
440: 4
441: 4
442: 2
443: 2
444: 5
445: 3
446: 1
447: 2
449: 2
Melee Crits
483: 4
484: 4
485: 3
486: 3
+ 487: 9
488: 4
490: 4
491: 2
492: 4
493: 4
^ 494: 4
495: 2
496: 5
497: 5
498: 2
499: 4
500: 4
501: 4
502: 8
503: 4
505: 3
506: 1
507: 2


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#384 Feb 04 2013 at 8:37 PM Rating: Good
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I started collecting ready move min/max damage vs level 0 mobs to try to figure base damage and tp modifier for them.
I haven't been super precise on the TP Modifiers. I'm rounding to the tenth. Here is what I have so far.

 
Pet		Ready		Chrg	Damage type	target	base	MAX tp Mod (300% TP)	 
Swift Sieghard	Scythe tail	1	Blunt		Single	387	3.0 
Swift Sieghard	Ripper fang	1	Slashing	Single	258	2.0 
Swift Sieghard	Chomp Rush	3	Slashing	Single	261	2.0 
Bugeyed Broncha	Nimble Snap	1	Slashing	Single	130	1.0 
Bugeyed Broncha	Cyclotail	1	Blunt		Radial	130	1.0 
Gorefang Hobs	Razor fang	1	Slashing	Single	387	3.0 
Gorefang Hobs	Claw Cyclone	2	Slashing	Conal	259	2.0 
CrudeRaphie	Tortoise Stomp	2	Blunt		Radial	481	3.7 
Flowerpot Merle	Head ****	1	Blunt		Single	148	2.0 
Flowerpot Merle	Leaf Dagger	1	Slashing	Single		 
Flowerpot Merle	Wild Oats	1	Piercing	Single	183	2.5 

I"m not exactly sure what to make out of leaf dagger... There was almost no variation in damage:

Leaf Dagger
68: 4
69: 2
+^ 273: 11
279: 9

Also, I'm going to submit a bug ticket to SE, about the 'resisted' physical ready moves.. jsut doesn't seem right.

Edited, Feb 4th 2013 9:59pm by Xilk

Edited, Feb 5th 2013 12:27am by Xilk
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#385 Feb 04 2013 at 10:20 PM Rating: Good
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To be fair, that isn't the TP mod. That's the maximum TP mod. Monsters TP moves probably follow the same WS formula as players with stat modifiers, fSTR, and fTP.
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#386 Feb 04 2013 at 11:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sufficient data that none of the end points can be considered outliers.


Lvl 73
Crits: 488 to 511
-8% CAB: 452 to 474 [452 * 1.05 = 474.6; 452 * 1.08 = 488.16; 474 * 1.08 = 511.92]
Base damage: 452/4 = 113

Min damage: 368
Min pDif: 368 / 113 = 3.257 [3.265 @ 368.99]
Max damage: 470
-5% random: 448
Max pDif: 3.965 [3.973 @ 448.99]

pDif spread (range): 0.700 - 0.716


Lvl 74
Crits: 488 to 511
-8% CAB: 452 to 474 [452 * 1.05 = 474.6; 452 * 1.08 = 488.16; 474 * 1.08 = 511.92]
Base damage: 452/4 = 113

Min damage: 365
Min pDif: 365 / 113 = 3.230 [3.238 @ 365.99]
Max damage: 466
-5% random: 444-445
Max pDif: 3.929-3.938-3.946

pDif spread (range): 0.691 - 0.708-0.712


Lvl 75
Crits: 483 to 507
-8% CAB: 448 to 470 [448 * 1.05 = 470.4; 448 * 1.08 = 483.84; 470 * 1.08 = 507.6]
Base damage: 448/4 = 112

Min damage: 354
Min pDif: 354 / 112 = 3.161 [3.169 @ 354.99]
Max damage: 458
-5% random: 437
Max pDif: 3.902 - 3.910

pDif spread (range): 0.733 - 0.749


Lvl 76
Crits: 483 to 507
-8% CAB: 448 to 470 [448 * 1.05 = 470.4; 448 * 1.08 = 483.84; 470 * 1.08 = 507.6]
Base damage: 448/4 = 112

Min damage: 346
Min pDif: 346 / 112 = 3.089 [3.098 @ 346.99]
Max damage: 449
-5% random: 428
Max pDif: 3.821 - 3.830

pDif spread (range): 0.723 - 0.741



The differences in the pDif spread appear to be real. It also appears that the changeover occurs at slightly above 3.5 cRatio.

Assuming +/- 0.375 for the lvl 76 and 75 mobs, cRatios are roughly 3.464 and 3.536. Both 73 and 74 appears to have approximately +/- 0.36 as the offset, and cRatios of 3.58-3.59 for lvl 74, and 3.61 to 3.62 for lvl 73.

Not sure if that's due to cRatio (~3.55?), or due to level difference (lvl 74 mobs are 25 levels below Hobs). The level difference seems more likely.

From estimated cRatios, and assuming 0.06 level correction, we could put them at

Predicted:
73: 3.56
74: 3.50
75: 3.44
76: 3.38

That's notably lower than the approximations made from the pDif range, by about 0.08. Best fit I can find is something like 0.064 correction per level, but that seems very... arbitrary. Plus it doesn't fit all the ranges.

Other speculations I had didn't pan out either.


Edited, Feb 4th 2013 11:19pm by Kinematics
#387 Feb 04 2013 at 11:24 PM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
To be fair, that isn't the TP mod. That's the maximum TP mod. Monsters TP moves probably follow the same WS formula as players with stat modifiers, fSTR, and fTP.


Yeah, I know, but organizing tables in forums w/ long titles and short data terms is really annoying. Alignment gets all messed up.
I feel kinda ripped-off that Broncha's max tp mod is so low for dd ready moves. Then again, maybe they have a nice attack bonus... still when going vs low level mobs, they can't even do as much as a crit hit...
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#388 Feb 05 2013 at 8:26 PM Rating: Good
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I have almost all the Physical Ready moves here now. I ran out of Toloi on test server, so havne't finished that yet. Also updated the front page again to add Anna, Julio, Sieghard, and Nazuna level 99 stats.
 
Familiar	Ready		Charges	Type		Target	Base Damage	300% TP MOD 
Turbid Toloi	Recoil Dive	1	Physical	Conal		 
Lucky Lulush	Foot Kick	1	Slashing	Single	386	3.0 
Lucky Lulush	Whirl Claws	1	Piercing	Radial	256	2.0 
Dipper Yuly	Spiral Spin	1	Slashing	Conal	248	2.0 
Dipper Yuly	Sudden Lunge	1	Blunt		Single	186	1.5 
Flowerpot Merle	Head ****	1	Blunt		Single	148	2.0 
Flowerpot Merle	Leaf Dagger	1	Slashing	Single	68	0.9 
Flowerpot Merle	Wild Oats	1	Piercing	Single	148	2.0 
Nursery Nazuna	Lamb Chop	1	Blunt		Single	394	3.0 
Nursery Nazuna	Sheep charge	1	Blunt		Single	394	3.0 
DapperMac	Wing Slap	1	Blunt		Single	45	0.6 
DapperMac	Beak Lunge	2	Blunt		Single	150	2.0 
Discreet Louise	Frogkick	1	Blunt		Single	261	2.0 
Fatso Fargann	Suction		1	Blunt		Single	390	3.0 
Audacious Anna	Tail blow	1	Slashing	Single	258	2.0 
Audacious Anna	Blockhead	1	Blunt		Single	258	2.0 
Audacious Anna	Brain Crush	1	Blunt		Single	390	3.0 
FaithfulFalcorr	Backheel	1	Blunt		Single	375	3.0 
FaithfulFalcorr	Choke Breath	1	Slashing	Conal	126	1.0 
Swift Sieghard	Scythe tail	1	Blunt		Single	387	3.0 
Swift Sieghard	Ripper fang	1	Slashing	Single	258	2.0 
Swift Sieghard	Chomp Rush	3	Slashing	Single	261	2.0 
Bugeyed Broncha	Nimble Snap	1	Slashing	Single	130	1.0 
Bugeyed Broncha	Cyclotail	1	Blunt		Radial	130	1.0 
Gorefang Hobs	Razor fang	1	Slashing	Single	387	3.0 
Gorefang Hobs	Claw Cyclone	2	Slashing	Conal	259	2.0 
CrudeRaphie	Tortoise Stomp	2	Blunt		Radial	481	3.7 
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#389 Feb 06 2013 at 8:54 AM Rating: Good
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Did any of those crit? You could tell by the maximum value being >5% more than the minimum value for the WAR mobs.

Also, which ones are "Damage varies with TP?" They should do less at 100TP than 300TP even if you can't see the description, yeah? It would be interesting to know if monsters have TP moves with modifiers other than that (I suspect they do).

If you want to work out the mods for these TP moves then here is how you could do it:
1) Take your jugpet to Abyssea on the test server.
2) Find a Scars NM that's always up (like the fat bat in Misa?)
3) Spam TP moves on him (hopefully you see a 1.0 plateau).
4) Don't kill him.
5) Return to the entrance
6) Put on a wide-range stat boosting Atma like Atma of the Savior
7) Return and spam more TP moves.
8) See if your base damage increased more than you'd predict from fSTR.
9) Replace with a more specific Atma (like Atma of the Strangling Wind, Atma of the Kirin, etc.)
10) Repeat.
11) Try to hone in on one.

Alternatively, you could just assume everything is STR modified and try to specifically test for that first.

Edited, Feb 6th 2013 9:54am by Byrthnoth
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#390 Feb 06 2013 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Did any of those crit? You could tell by the maximum value being >5% more than the minimum value for the WAR mobs.

Also, which ones are "Damage varies with TP?" They should do less at 100TP than 300TP even if you can't see the description, yeah? It would be interesting to know if monsters have TP moves with modifiers other than that (I suspect they do).

If you want to work out the mods for these TP moves then here is how you could do it:
1) Take your jugpet to Abyssea on the test server.
2) Find a Scars NM that's always up (like the fat bat in Misa?)
3) Spam TP moves on him (hopefully you see a 1.0 plateau).
4) Don't kill him.
5) Return to the entrance
6) Put on a wide-range stat boosting Atma like Atma of the Savior
7) Return and spam more TP moves.
8) See if your base damage increased more than you'd predict from fSTR.
9) Replace with a more specific Atma (like Atma of the Strangling Wind, Atma of the Kirin, etc.)
10) Repeat.
11) Try to hone in on one.

Alternatively, you could just assume everything is STR modified and try to specifically test for that first.

Edited, Feb 6th 2013 9:54am by Byrthnoth


Foot Kick Crits ofcourse. I accounted for that when I made my calculations. I reduced the upper level by the 8% crit bonus before confirming the randomizer 5% difference. Whirl Claws and Wild oats threw me off a bit at first, because I didn't realize that both bumblebeese and tiny mandragora are weak to piercing. I did not find any other ready moves which crit, unfortunately. Plenty of BST have wanted that level 90 ish in abyssea.

Leaf Dagger, is an oddity as I noted before. There was NOT a 5% difference from the randomizer. There were only 2 damages which were considered. However I calculated it out the rest of the way as if it did.

Thank you for the suggestions for abyssea testing. I would have forgotten to look for an NM. A static NM actually makes this MUCH easier and there are no competition concerns on test server.

I'm not quite sure what to look for for the 1.0 plateau however. .A frequency spike? The same damage numbers happening significaly more frequently than others?

I AM pretty sure almost all if not all physical ready moves are STR modified. I will be pleasantly surprised to find any other stats which modify them. I saw a very definite boost from str in dapper mac's wing slap in abyssea after my base testing yesterday. (trying to check some magic damage, but really brenner is best for that).

Why do you suggest a scars zone? Frankly I would suspect a Heroes zone w/ NM's closer to level 99 would make finding a 1.0 plateau more likely.


Edit:
I gathered some numbers for GorefangHobs and DapperMac. I picked on Gukumatz. Though, It appears str boosts damage a bit. I'm would probably only work on 1 or 2 pets at a time for these types of tests... gets a bit tedious. Also I think identifying attack values would make this better. I don't have specific stats for gukumatz such as vit or def.. might be good to figure out stats for an aby - timespawn nm.

Also I do not see any frequency spikes... furthermore it apears the "resists" do alot ot cloud the damage boundaries when pdif isn't capped.
For example, I see no obvious boundaries in damage between 485 and 1242 damage for claw cyclone. There are almost no doubles of the same damage either. which will probably point to needs larger sample size. How many samples do you suppose one should get for this. 50 samples made it very obvious for the level 0 mob tests. 50 samples for this one doesn't mean much to me.

Edited, Feb 6th 2013 4:34pm by Xilk
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#391 Feb 06 2013 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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I think if level correction starts working against you a lot then there is a chance you may miss it. And yeah, the 1.0 frequency spike is going to be a set of numbers from 1.0 pDIF to 1.05 (pDIF*randomizer) that show up much more frequently than the others.

Wild Oats is probably a ranged TP move, which is why it's so consistent and follows a different equation than the others. If there are two values, perhaps it is "True Shot" and not. I don't know anything about monster ranged damage, so I can't really help you there.


STR is going to appear to modify all the TP moves because fSTR doesn't cap for monsters (as far as we can tell), but what you need to find is whether you get more of a boost from STR than you would expect from fSTR (about 1 STR every 4). I would recommend using a STR Atma like Stout Arm when you're getting your baseline (avoid DA still, I guess) so that you put your monster in the +4 STR = +1 base damage range.

In relation to this, if you were using a lot of different low level monsters then you may have gotten variable damage (for instance, on Wild Oats) because low level monsters have different VITs and fSTR is uncapped. Kegsay saw this in his tests. It would be exceptionally apparent in Wild Oats because that move is ranged and uses fSTR2 (2 STR = 1 base damage).
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#392 Feb 06 2013 at 6:05 PM Rating: Good
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Thinking about it some more, if you get the 1.0 pDIF spike about in the middle of your range for melee hits, you should be able to tell if certain TP moves have attack bonuses/penalties.
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#393 Feb 06 2013 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
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Would there be value I redoing base damage calculations w/ BST/drk ?
Using absorb bit should max fstr....but I imagine it would add probably 1 maybe 2 base damage to all pets.

I really wonder if base damage for pets is just based off str anyway. There is very little variation in mob base damage of the same job type. Usually a difference in base damage is combined w/ a decrease in delay also...

Edited, Feb 6th 2013 8:02pm by Xilk
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#394 Feb 11 2013 at 12:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ophanus pointed something out to me in a PM which I actually figured a few days after my SE bug report about the strange resistence to pet ready moves.

I had actually forgotten about it, even though I thought of it before. My testing was vs bees and mandy's. Mandy's guard. I wasn't sure if they could Guard special moves, but Ophanus says they do, which sounds right anyway.
However, I'm not hte only one who collected samples of this. Falkirk did also. Please confirm if you were fighting Mandragora or not w/ those headbutt samples.

And. that leads us too...
Does anyone know by how much Guard reduces damage? I don't think anyone has... and i think we just stumbled upon the answer. I think this shows that guard reduces damage by the same factors which magic damage can be resisted.

Thank you Ophanus :D

Edit:
Actually, the bgwiki page says guarded attacks have pdif reduced by 1.0.. and that's really not what's happening here.. and Falkirk's tests where the same damage reduction was observed are NOT vs mandragora.

Edited, Feb 11th 2013 7:49pm by Xilk
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#395 Feb 11 2013 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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Also, I've not crunched the numbers yet, but Bookmarku sent me some 100% tp damage values.

Quote:
I don't know if it's terribly useful, but I have been gathering 100% TP Ready move info vs Wild Rabbits. :) Here are my numbers so far (messy as they are):

LuckyLulush:
Foot Kick - 868, 212, 869, 855, 871, 866, 848, 849, 862, 848, 835, 873, 858, 867, 842
Whirl Claws - 1082, 1077, 1050, 1062, 1066, 1062, 1062, 1067, 1081, 1063, 1039, 1049, 1065, 1073, 1059

FlowerpotMerle:
Head **** - 614, 617, 595, 621, 600, 598, 613, 609, 603
Leaf Dagger - 279, 69, 279, 279, 279
Wild Oats - 309, 302, 309, 300, 310, 297, 75, 307, 307, 296, 308, 309, 309, 306, 296, 309

NurseryNazuna:
Lamb Chop - 1610, 1644, 1635, 1587, 1591, 1587, 1649, 1623, 1654, 1662,
Sheep Charge - 813, 205, 818, 810, 823, 823, 830, 831, 792

CrudeRaphie:
Tortoise Stomp - 671, 648, 644, 676

GorefangHobs:
Razor Fang - 1577, 1590, 1571, 1591, 1604, 1611, 1628, 1586, 1613, 1595, 1592, 1613, 1576, 1595, 1560, 1561
Claw Cyclone - 1040, 1042, 1067, 1062, 1088

BugeyedBroncha:
Nimble Snap - 539, 522, 534, 528, 521, 527, 521, 518, 523, 536


This definitely shows some tp moves which have damage vary w/ tp. should be able to get some 100% tp mod estimates as well. but it doesn't look like we have the full range of 4.0 to 4.2 pdif on all of them.
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#396 Feb 11 2013 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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My Head **** samples were done against Wild Rabbits because I was checking for a damage change from Ferine Cabasset +2. :)

Edit: I've got some more 100% TP Ready samples as well:

FatsoFargann:
Suction - 808, 788, 804, 808, 811, 812, 782, 802, 787, 809

FaithfulFalcorr:
Back Heel - 1540, 1524, 1541, 1567, 1525, 1549, 1516, 1525, 1542, 1513, 1559, 1551, 1534, 1553, 1563, 1542, 1517, 386, 1530, 1561, 1513, 1520
Choke Breath - 504, 524, 508, 508, 511, 528

Since I don't know your numbers from the 300% TP samples you took, which ones are "Damage Varies With TP" so far? Kinda curious. :D

Edited, Feb 11th 2013 1:19pm by Bookmarku
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#397 Feb 11 2013 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
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silly me didn't post the actual min/maxes for ready moves....
These are all 300% tp samples
 
Familiar	Ready		Min	Max 
Turbid Toloi	Recoil Dive		 
Lucky Lulush	Foot Kick	1658	1752 
Lucky Lulush	Whirl Claws	1285	1346 
Dipper Yuly	Spiral Spin	992	1040 
Dipper Yuly	Sudden Lunge	748	781 
Flowerpot Merle	Head ****		 
Flowerpot Merle	Leaf Dagger	273	279 
Flowerpot Merle	Wild Oats	731	775 
Nursery Nazuna	Lamb Chop	1577	1658 
Nursery Nazuna	Sheep charge	1583	1645 
DapperMac	Wing Slap	186	189 
DapperMac	Beak Lunge	601	630 
Discreet Louise	Frogkick	1050	1100 
Fatso Fargann	Suction		1561	1607 
Audacious Anna	Tail blow	1032	1087 
Audacious Anna	Blockhead	1039	1082 
Audacious Anna	Brain Crush	1578	1636 
FaithfulFalcorr	Backheel	1502	1580 
FaithfulFalcorr	Choke Breath	505	528 
Swift Sieghard	Scythe tail	1549	1632 
Swift Sieghard	Ripper fang	1032	1081 
Swift Sieghard	Chomp Rush	1044	1091 
Bugeyed Broncha	Nimble Snap	520	545 
Bugeyed Broncha	Cyclotail	522	539 
Gorefang Hobs	Razor fang	1549	1624 
Gorefang Hobs	Claw Cyclone	1038	1092 
CrudeRaphie	Tortoise Stomp	1924	2019 
 


Edited, Feb 11th 2013 6:27pm by Xilk

Edited, Feb 12th 2013 11:00am by Xilk
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#398 Feb 12 2013 at 9:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Updated ready move table:

 
Familiar	m.baseD	Ready		Charges	Type		Target	FTP300%	FTP100% 
Turbid Toloi	130	Recoil Dive	1	Physical	Conal		 
Lucky Lulush	128	Foot Kick	1	Slashing	Single	3.0	1.5 
Lucky Lulush	128	Whirl Claws	1	Piercing	Radial	2.0	2.0 
Dipper Yuly	124	Spiral Spin	1	Slashing	Conal	2.0	 
Dipper Yuly	124	Sudden Lunge	1	Blunt		Single	1.5	 
Flowerpot Merle	73	Head ****	1	Blunt		Single	2.0	2.0 
Flowerpot Merle	73	Leaf Dagger	1	Slashing	Single	0.9	 
Flowerpot Merle	73	Wild Oats	1	Piercing	Single	2.0	1.0 
Nursery Nazuna	131	Lamb Chop	1	Blunt		Single	3.0	3.0 
Nursery Nazuna	131	Sheep charge	1	Blunt		Single	3.0	1.5 
DapperMac	75	Wing Slap	1	Blunt		Single	0.6	 
DapperMac	75	Beak Lunge	2	Blunt		Single	2.0	 
Discreet Louise	131	Frogkick	1	Blunt		Single	2.0	 
Fatso Fargann	130	Suction		1	Blunt		Single	3.0	1.5 
Audacious Anna	130	Tail blow	1	Slashing	Single	2.0	 
Audacious Anna	130	Blockhead	1	Blunt		Single	2.0	 
Audacious Anna	130	Brain Crush	1	Blunt		Single	3.0	 
FaithfulFalcorr	126	Backheel	1	Blunt		Single	3.0	3.0 
FaithfulFalcorr	126	Choke Breath	1	Slashing	Conal	1.0	1.0 
Swift Sieghard	129	Scythe tail	1	Blunt		Single	3.0	 
Swift Sieghard	129	Ripper fang	1	Slashing	Single	2.0	 
Swift Sieghard	129	Chomp Rush	3	Slashing	Single	2.0	 
Bugeyed Broncha	130	Nimble Snap	1	Slashing	Single	1.0	1.0 
Bugeyed Broncha	130	Cyclotail	1	Blunt		Radial	1.0	 
Gorefang Hobs	130	Razor fang	1	Slashing	Single	3.0	3.0 
Gorefang Hobs	130	Claw Cyclone	2	Slashing	Conal	2.0	2.0 
CrudeRaphie	130	Tortoise Stomp	2	Blunt		Radial	3.7	1.24 


One side note: Wing Slap can hit multiple times. You won't see the multihits in the level 0 mob testing. They always die in the first hit. I saw it in my Gukumatsu samples. it was doing ~480 damage. Methinks there were 3 hits involved. (although the animation looks like 4 hits... but when does that ever matter?)

Edited, Feb 12th 2013 11:03am by Xilk
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#399 Feb 12 2013 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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Okay, I'd recommend combining the Min/Max damage values into that table if possible.

Currently (if I'm reading this right), you have:
Base Melee damage (not during WS) and "fTP" for the WS, which is actually "approximate fTP assuming that there is no stat modifier that contributes to TP move damage."



Also, you need to be WSing the same type of monster over and over (like Tiny Mandragora vs. Tiny Bumblebee). Different kinds of L0 monsters VITs are different by 1. Depending on your pet's exact STR, this may make a 1 base damage difference in their damage. Looking at your Foot Kick data, for instance, you have more than a 5% spread between your max and your min, which indicates that your fSTR has changed (probably by 1). Leaf Dagger is the same, though the 6 damage difference either tells you that it's approximately (but not exactly) a 2 fTP TP move (3 fTP max for ranged?) or that monsters use a different Ranged pDIF formula too. You could use this to test fTP if you wanted in the following way:
1) Figure out exactly the base melee damage your pet has against a specific of monster.
2) Figure out exactly the base damage during TP moves that your pet has against the same type of monster.
3) Move to a higher level monster where you still cap damage (say a level 60 Lizard) and repeat 1 and 2.

You can see changes in fSTR in the normal melee damage too (except for ranged WSs) and so you know how much the base damage during WS has changed. The larger the difference in VITs between your targets, the higher your fTP precision will be. If you test on something that you just barely cap on, this may also let you figure out if there is an attack penalty on the pet TP moves (depending how the penalty is applied).
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#400 Feb 12 2013 at 4:10 PM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Okay, I'd recommend combining the Min/Max damage values into that table if possible.

Currently (if I'm reading this right), you have:
Base Melee damage (not during WS) and "fTP" for the WS, which is actually "approximate fTP assuming that there is no stat modifier that contributes to TP move damage."



Also, you need to be WSing the same type of monster over and over (like Tiny Mandragora vs. Tiny Bumblebee). Different kinds of L0 monsters VITs are different by 1. Depending on your pet's exact STR, this may make a 1 base damage difference in their damage. Looking at your Foot Kick data, for instance, you have more than a 5% spread between your max and your min, which indicates that your fSTR has changed (probably by 1). Leaf Dagger is the same, though the 6 damage difference either tells you that it's approximately (but not exactly) a 2 fTP TP move (3 fTP max for ranged?) or that monsters use a different Ranged pDIF formula too. You could use this to test fTP if you wanted in the following way:
1) Figure out exactly the base melee damage your pet has against a specific of monster.
2) Figure out exactly the base damage during TP moves that your pet has against the same type of monster.
3) Move to a higher level monster where you still cap damage (say a level 60 Lizard) and repeat 1 and 2.

You can see changes in fSTR in the normal melee damage too (except for ranged WSs) and so you know how much the base damage during WS has changed. The larger the difference in VITs between your targets, the higher your fTP precision will be. If you test on something that you just barely cap on, this may also let you figure out if there is an attack penalty on the pet TP moves (depending how the penalty is applied).



Good advice to avoid a 1 vit difference. However your examples of foot kick and leaf dagger aren't really examples of this.

Foot kick is the only critical hit Ready move there is. You are seeing a larger than .05 spread because it has a crit attack bonus trait in there. Also Leaf Dagger is the move which only had 2 different damage values (not wild oats). Its probably ranged. it only hits for 273 or 279 damage. Which is why those two moves do not have the expected range split.

Edit: Actually, this difference is probably exactly because its ranged, and exactly because of a 1 vit difference in targets. Ranged damage on automaton does not vary at all. Falkirk has a few samples of this on wild rabbits. I believe his samples are only 1 mob type and his damage does not vary at all. (only the strange "resisted" type damage which occasionally happens).

I actually did not intend to include the Melee base damage in that table.... I actually have all the above data in 1 big table. I just hide some before copying it over to share it in the thread. Edit: The base melee damage numbers above do reflect a 1 vit difference also.. it was always teetering between 1 point of base damage or another, and I'm sure from your comments that it is because of the vit difference between bees and mandragora. Not sure which numbers to use. I could probably just get both by sorting my existing parses.

And yes, also, that the ftp modifiers are not as precise as they could be. It was a toss up between getting lots and lots of samples for precision, vs sampling each ready move to give a more general picture. I opted for the general picture at this point. more practical imo.

I don't know how long it will be before I actually get around to checking for 'WS' modifiers for ready moves. Its lower on my priority list for a few reasons.

1, I think figuring attack values would make it easier to figure stat mods on ws's. and many other things and I think it takes about the same amount of work and testing. Attack values are really the most critical piece of missing info imo. Cursor ready move numbers were just much more convenient to collect at the current level.

2. I highly doubt there are specific stat mods for monster moves. IT makes sense for a player, because players equip gear which modify these stats. However, monsters don't have gear. It would really be needlessly complicated from a programmer's perspective IMO. Japanese love making things needlessly complicated, but I think they dodged that one. Also, long ago testing for stat mods on magical ready moves yielded 0 results (charged whisker's I"m thinking of you). The recent discussions regarding battle system adjustments also indicated that NM stats usually are not thru the roof for INT, STR, VIt, etc... they would usually take attack, and def, and level as the preferred numbers to manipulate. (ie, nm's which have normal int levels, but nukes are strong because of massive amounts of MAB).
Also the ftp modifier estimates show a very clear pattern. They are almost all whole numbers (1.0 and 3.0) and the pattern keeps across multiple pets. This indicates a general mob design pattern which keeps it simple. I could be completely wrong, but...

I suppose I could share the spreadsheet on Google Doc's.. but its mostly not a nice clean thing. I have some columns which are nicely formatted and labelled.. and a few which are more scratchpad-like... which I usually hide.

I really keep 1 table to collect all pet stat data, and another for ready moves.

Edited, Feb 12th 2013 5:38pm by Xilk
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#401 Feb 12 2013 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
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floor(floor(floor(D*fTP)*pDIF1*pDIF2)*crit damage) = Damage

pDIF1 would be the normal spread of damage that depends on the monster's current Ratio. We know it is always 4 for capped Ratio on pets.
pDIF2 would be the flat 1~1.05 randomizer

Regardless whether or not there is crit damage, pDIF2 is still a 1~1.05 multiplier and we should only see 1.05 when we divide the max by the min (ignoring flooring). Being more than a point or two of damage outside the range indicates a change in D (or non-capped fTP in this case), and being only a point or two outside the max might just be flooring changes. In this case we're several points outside the range, so base damage probably changed.


It's good to know that pet magic TP moves have no stat modifiers. Do they use dSTAT (like dINT)? I know that Avatar BPs at least use dINT and probably use the full magic damage equation with an extra term for fTP.


Edit: ooooh, unless Foot Kick has a non-100% crit rate? In that case we'd expect a 13.4% variance.

Edited, Feb 12th 2013 5:40pm by Byrthnoth
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