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#1 Jan 24 2011 at 7:39 PM Rating: Decent
I'm more than a little disappointed that SE's idea of growing RNG's weapon damage is to add cost prohibitively expensive ammo to our ******** Silvers and Demons/Kaburas were expensive enough! To get the full advantage of higher levels, we need to pay three times as much in ammo? We all knew the costs when we signed up for the job - you would need to pay to play with the highest damage weapons in the game. A badge of honor I wore proudly at 75.

But the expense implied by SE to go with top of the line ammo is getting ridiculous. They didn't release a system to get this ammo, just the ability to pay for a more extravagant synth. In a way I wonder if this is part of SE's idea of throwing the crafters a bone - introduce few consumable synths per craft that will leave them profitable to anyone who needs the gil badly enough.

Why couldn't they just say that ammo has come as far as it will, and increase weapon damage at a rate commensurate with other weapons? I'm willing to suspend my disbelief that for levels 1-75, base damage increases at one rate, and a higher rate 75-99 for the sake of not tripling expenses to get the rightful boost to base damage as we progress.

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 5:41pm by tertoonetwothreefour

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 5:41pm by tertoonetwothreefour
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#2 Jan 25 2011 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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Dweomer bullets are actually really cheap to make... around 5k/stack before HQs. That's easily cheaper than silver bullets, I just won't sell them cheap if people are willing to pay me more. And I don't make them too often because there are other, more lucrative things at the moment.

Dark adaman bullets, on the other hand.... well, they would have been ok if darksteel prices hadn't gone through the roof. On some servers it's probably still reasonable. But premium price for premium ammo, that's part of being a RNG.

As for bolts... fusion bolts are dirt cheap to make. Something like 2k/stack before HQs. But without any new crossbows, bolts are falling out of favor. Dark adaman bolts are much more economical than the bullets, and should come in at 4-6k/stack on most servers.

When it comes to arrows, Ruszor are hard to price because you simply cannot get the materials unless you farm yourself. There's nothing inherently expensive about making them, other than the fact that nobody wants to fight gnats or ruszors. Antlion arrows, on the other hand, are about the cheapest thing ever. They're made from readily available materials, and you should be able to make a stack of quivers for under 10k.

The real problem, imo, is that too many people are Q.Qing about how there's no gil in crafting instead of researching and making new things at competitive prices. And not enough people have leveled synergy. Meanwhile, there aren't a lot of RNGs left (the bandwagon RNGs mostly jumped ship years ago), so demand for premium ammo is low to begin with. That leaves me, as a goldsmith and synergist, not super motivated to make a ton of ammo. Some of the precursor synths require me to go find someone to make, because nobody bothers otherwise. Some of the synergies I then need an afk partner for. And even if I synth a pile of fusion bolts, I might sell a stack of quivers for 100k profit. Why should I go through all of that, when there are other synths I can do for 100-500k profit each?
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#3 Jan 25 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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THe whole ammo thing is horribly broken as the two posts in this thread demonstrate.

RNG's are ****** at the gouging. Crafters don't see demand worth the effort. So you end up with minimal amounts of overpriced ammo.

I think SE really needs to think about RNG some more. When I last checked the server there were precisely 6 RNG and 6 COR, two fo the most consumable heavy jobs out there. That's about a third of what was seen prior to the level cap increases started.

I love ranged jobs. ALways have. But I hate that ammo is hard to get and/or overpriced. I hate that none of my WS are used to proc red. I hate that QD isn't used for yellow procs. I hate that I haven't been give an easily obtainable decent upgrade to SW. I hate that few Atma's seem designed for RNG. I hate that there is hardly anyone on this forum anymore to even discuss the job and new changes.

Hear that SE. DOn't make me feel forced to level BLM. Put some more effort into fixing the job like you did BLM.
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#4 Jan 28 2011 at 3:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Ruszor arrows are actually dirt cheap to make.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#5 Jan 28 2011 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Ruszor arrows are actually dirt cheap to make.


Well its entirely dependent on supplies of ruzsor fangs and gnat wings. The gnat wings aren't too terrible to come across since some people do gnat parties in Aby Attowha. Ruszor fangs on the other hand are very hit or miss on the AH. That and the fact that so few people synergize on our server, these arrows are in short supply (and 30k a stack).

Someday i'll have to work on synergy, but I'm thinking its kind of pointless until we hit the 99 cap and see what the final endgame ammo will be. For now I'm using m limited time to work on AF3 upgrades and atmas/abyssites which is taking a lot of my limited playtime.
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#6 Feb 01 2011 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Someday i'll have to work on synergy, but I'm thinking its kind of pointless until we hit the 99 cap and see what the final endgame ammo will be. For now I'm using m limited time to work on AF3 upgrades and atmas/abyssites which is taking a lot of my limited playtime.


This is why all this stuff is so expensive. 90% of crafters have this same attitude. "I'll get to synergy someday".

I spent a crap-ton of time like... 4 years ago... capping out all my crafts, b/c I didn't want to spend time leveling crafts again. Then they release this synergy BS, and every new recipe that comes out requires it. Very frustrating. I'd rather spend my limited time in game having fun in Abyssea than adding fuel to a furnace or whatever the frak synergy is supposed to be...
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#7 Feb 02 2011 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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This is why all this stuff is so expensive. 90% of crafters have this same attitude. "I'll get to synergy someday".


Yes. I do dislike it when SE introduces something that proves to be unpopular and they try to force it down your throat. No one likes synergy. It didn't improve crafting. Yet SE seems to think we should just love and embrace it. And so they just make all the new recipes for expendables require it. So nothing shows up on the AH and when it does its incredibly overpriced.
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#8 Feb 02 2011 at 10:40 AM Rating: Good
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Dartagnann wrote:
Yes. I do dislike it when SE introduces something that proves to be unpopular and they try to force it down your throat. No one likes synergy. It didn't improve crafting. Yet SE seems to think we should just love and embrace it. And so they just make all the new recipes for expendables require it. So nothing shows up on the AH and when it does its incredibly overpriced.


I actually DO like it. It eliminates a lot of the problems associated with the old crafting system, and it offers rewards to people who want to get into something new, rather than being an exclusive club for those who hit 100 years ago. There is, of course, incentive to have a regular craft leveled as well. I've made some good bank on +7 rings, which I can make all by myself thanks to having goldsmithing leveled. But I've made more gil on recipes where I had to go find an alchemist or a blacksmith to party up with. At times it can be annoying to have to find someone to team up with, but the ability to do so also opens up a ton of opportunities. That Alcide's Harness +1 that I made a while back? Never would have happened without the ability to borrow a random bonecrafter for 2 minutes.

Some of the real holdups are things I've talked about before... hard to get materials, lack of precursor synths, etc. Part of this is due to players focusing all their time on other stuff. But I also believe that a big part of the problem is that the huge diversity of items and materials is grown beyond what the auction house system can handle in its current state. Mainly, I'm talking about the seven item limit, and the three day bounce. With the number of players shrinking and the number of items increasing, there are a lot of things are are simply not worth listing on the AH because they are unlikely to sell.

There are two things I would suggest to SE (and have posted about previously) that would help this situation. First would be to increase the number of items that we can list, and the length of time before they are returned. I would even be happy to have the option to pay a higher fee - double, perhaps - to have something stay up for 2 weeks instead of 3 days. I have a ton of things I would be happy to make and list if my slots weren't limited and if I didn't have to babysit my sales and relist items as frequently.

The other suggestion would be to bridge the AHs across multiple (or even all) servers. This obviously would be a far greater technical challenge, but it would do wonders in terms of evening out supply, demand, and price for a large number of items. It would also make it more difficult for any one person to corner the market on a given item, which would be a good thing for most of us.

Anyhow, IMO, the best way to boost the crafting system right now isn't to do away with synergy, but to improve the AH system that supports it.
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#9 Feb 03 2011 at 4:20 AM Rating: Decent
Up to about 50k, I can't bring myself to go to the AH to list items that will just be undercut and returned. I've dropped many an item on my mog floor because I don't want to spend the 7 minutes it takes to list something after a night's adventuring.

Zone twice, get walk blocked through crowds, find each item in the sluggish browse feature, just to profit in a currency that doesn't even apply to the game's premier weapons and armor? {Pass}.
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#10 Feb 03 2011 at 8:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I actually DO like it.


Glad there is someone out there that does.
Wish there were more of you. And wish there were some of you that didn't hold your synergy skills in such high regard that you gouge customers 10x the mat cost for arrows and bullets.

I'll likely get around to levelling it someday just because I can't abide the gouging currently going on.

And I'm not sure I agree with allowing items to stay on the AH longer. That seems like a recipe to keep the prices high.
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#11 Feb 05 2011 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not a RNG really anymore (I left it at 75) but quite frankly, the cost should be that high IF you guys were the powerhouses of DD you were originally. I would not mind taking a backseat to RNGs and nuking NINs in the DD department. If you pay for your damage you deserve to have a higher potential.

ATM it seems like you guys pay a ton to be on par, which leaves only the diehard RNGs wanting to level the job. That being said I would much prefer they remove that silly melee RNG nerf and increase your DD aspects and make you guys BMWs that run on jet fuel instead of toyotas that run on diesel.

That's just my opinion though, not saying it's right. Cheaper ammo with the same DD potential might be the more preferred route amongst people.
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#12 Feb 06 2011 at 6:02 AM Rating: Default
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Melee rng nerf? You mean velocity shot? It's not a melee nerf, it's a ranged buff. You don't have to use it if you don't want to.
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#13 Feb 06 2011 at 6:25 AM Rating: Good
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No, the nerf that made ranged attacks less potent from the front lines. RNGs used to be able to front line, swing twice with daggers and fire a shot making them massive TP/DD machines. Back in the day the TP gain was considered "Unbalanced" because they introduced the sweet spot system. I believe Velocity Shot was introduced some weeks later to help encourage standing back even more. A kclub or Mkris RNG couldn't be touched back then, and no melees ******* if the RNG took hate and made them run.
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#14 Feb 06 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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No, the nerf that made ranged attacks less potent from the front lines. RNGs used to be able to front line, swing twice with daggers and fire a shot making them massive TP/DD machines. Back in the day the TP gain was considered "Unbalanced" because they introduced the sweet spot system. I believe Velocity Shot was introduced some weeks later to help encourage standing back even more. A kclub or Mkris RNG couldn't be touched back then, and no melees ******* if the RNG took hate and made them run.


Oh don't bring back the painful memories of the good old days. We've been reduced to a job that you sometimes bring for those rare fights that you need damage from afar and it can't be nukes. And yet in a lot of those fights it still seems my COR is superior with QD offering tp free damage and regain giving me TP for WS.

I honestly would pay 30k a stack for arrows if they made me a better DD than I am today. But 30k a stack to be on par with others and inferior to some.... just irks me. And its another reason that COR, RNG and PUP remain lowest played jobs.
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#15 Feb 07 2011 at 3:08 AM Rating: Default
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ElvaanTHF wrote:
No, the nerf that made ranged attacks less potent from the front lines. RNGs used to be able to front line, swing twice with daggers and fire a shot making them massive TP/DD machines. Back in the day the TP gain was considered "Unbalanced" because they introduced the sweet spot system. I believe Velocity Shot was introduced some weeks later to help encourage standing back even more. A kclub or Mkris RNG couldn't be touched back then, and no melees ******* if the RNG took hate and made them run.
Ranged damage was better from the "sweet spot" years before velocity shot was introduced.
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#16 Feb 07 2011 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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Ranged damage was better from the "sweet spot" years before velocity shot was introduced.


Which was the original point. The RNG nerf was to make ranged damage and accuracy worse from in close. Moving RNG from melee range nerfed their TP gain and thus a significant part of their damage. It also made them move mobs whenever they WS'd so that other melees could miss their WS's, making RNG all but useless in a zerg situation. RNG became a job people only needed for kited NM's which became few and far between after the introduction of the 2H update, BRD merits, Angon and Feint. Then most NM's were zerged by SAMs, DRKS and WARs and RNG and BLM were much less useful.

But I'm sure I don't need to discuss history. None of us were talking about velocity shot being a nerf. VS was a buff to try to answer the original nerf. But it never answered the problem of how does a RNG do dmg at range and not pull the mob away from the other melee? That's the crux of why RNG doesn't get played that much. That and our DD capabilities have not kept up to other DD jobs. When SAM's and DRK's were whiffing half their swings, it was much closer. Hasn't been that way for a while.
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#17 Feb 07 2011 at 1:15 PM Rating: Decent
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My biggest problem with ranger is it has no defence at all, and because of the way ranged atttacking works, you can't tank at all.
For example, any normal melee can cast utsusemi any time during their melee attack round, as the actual attack is instant and after that is just a delay befor the next round. Rangers have a delay during their attack aswell as after that, during which point you can not cast any spells or use any JAs. This makes it impossible to deal any form of damage or defend at the same time. Furthermore with no form of self damage mitigation, you're reduced to relying on luck-based seigan, or stopping any form of DD completely to cast utsusemi, which will basically involve: you pulling hate and having to recast ni after 3 attacks, then almost immidiately casting ichi after another two attacks, then taking hits because your timers still have 15 seconds on them. Seriously, it's like tanking on nin with just ichi back when we were lvling SJs to 37. Cast it before engaging, cast it after 2 hits, then having to sponge MP till it's timer is up again.

Not only can we not do worthwhile damage, but we can't even defend ourselves should our lackluster damage pull hate.
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#18 Feb 08 2011 at 12:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Not only can we not do worthwhile damage, but we can't even defend ourselves should our lackluster damage pull hate.


Admittedly, good points as well. I'm not sure SE has the will to fix it. THey seem to be so scared of recreating RNG as the monster DD it once was, that they always come short with any attempt o fix the job.

Why they just can't give us a big enmity shedding ability so we don't have to worry about these issues baffles me.
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#19 Feb 08 2011 at 12:57 AM Rating: Decent
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You can still hold out well enough with good PDT gear.
RNG is probably the only DD that gets away with using an Earth staff and not suffering much damage reduction.

You can easily cap PDT with Earth staff, PDT bow, and an assortment of accessories, and can get a max of 47% without the bow if you bother to get all the good ring/earring augments. (20 staff, 5 neck, 4 ASA legs, 6+6 rings, 2+2 earrings, 2 Denali hands)
I have 41% myself because my luck with augments has always been terrible. Stopped making use the PDT bow since I got Jishnu's.

MDT is even easier to cap because you only need 22-26% depending on the Shell you're getting from your mages.

With /SAM, Seigan, Third Eye, and a good WHM, you should never hit the dirt, as rarely anything can one shot you through capped PDT and MDT. Just make use of proper gear macros and switch out accordingly. No harm in TPing in full PDT if you know you are the one tanking.

/NIN is pointless for tanking, lack of evasion on RNG (255 base at 90) means you spend all your time recasting shadows which means you wouldn't even be tanking for the lack of damage output.

This is not me theorycrafting here, I've personally solo tanked a bunch of Abyssea NMs without fail using a PDT set, including Yaanei, Sippoy, Kutharei, Ningishzida, and well, you get the point.

My only gripe about RNG is that they get 0 benefit from things like Haste, DA, and TA to push our damage up like they do for melee DDs. (Though I suppose the lack of the need for Haste is what makes Sea Daughter Atma so good for us)
#20 Feb 08 2011 at 4:11 AM Rating: Decent
What atmas do you use for RNG tanking? The idea has always intrigued me, but been too much work for meh results in the situations I envision myself in. RNG can't proc as well as a WAR if you're the only melee, and doesn't have its gaps in WS repertoire filled by another useful job a la NIN+MNK.
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#21 Feb 08 2011 at 5:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Kyatasutorofii wrote:
This is not me theorycrafting here, I've personally solo tanked a bunch of Abyssea NMs without fail using a PDT set, including Yaanei, Sippoy, Kutharei, Ningishzida, and well, you get the point.
That's not an argument for the strength of ranger, that's an argument for the strength of whm with all the refresh they get now.

It's still not the main point. The problem is that you have to stop attacking in order to do anything vaguely defensive. You have to stop shooting and wait for the delay during and after the shot before you can do anything. You may have a decent PDT set, but I don't like the idea of fulltiming PDT weapons. The fact that you need to have a full PDT set to make you an even remotely plausible makeshift tank is proof of how bad the job is defensively.
When any other DD takes hate, they can pop up their defences and tank for a while whilst still accumulating TP and attacking, swinging between and during shadow casting or putting up whatever other defensive JA they have. Rng can't. Because of the stupid way ranged attacks are performed, you either stand there in DEF gear praying to the seigan god, OR you're attacking. You can't do both.

It's the ranged attack system that is the biggest flaw. I understand it "doesn't make sense" to be able to use a JA or spell mid-shot as it'll disrupt your accuracy, but by that same argument if I was aiming with my gun and then some big beast went to attack me, you'd better believe I'd stop aiming and do whatever needs be to get some kind of defensive up.
If we were for example able to use any JA or spell mid-shot, but doing so canceled that shot, then that would at least be a step in the right direction. An even better one would be to have the ranger's attack completely done and calculated immidiately like a melee swing with the delay now being the time before you could take another immidiate shot (reloading time or some ********* which would allow you to use a JA or spell at any time just like when meleeing. You could add a rule like the delay after the shot befor you can fire again also works for when you can next swing a melee weapon - EG shoot then have to wait 4 seconds before you can shoot again and also having to wait the same 4 seconds before you can do a melee swing which would A: help us calulate snapshot better and B: stop melees abusing it for instant TP.
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#22 Feb 08 2011 at 5:26 AM Rating: Decent
I'd still like bow counter. If you get swung at and your shot is "interrupted", you shoot immediately to preclude/mitigate that attack. SE would probably reduce damage the damage of the shot or the TP gained so it doesn't become a mechanism to fire our high damage and delay weapons at the delay of the attacking mob.

But still, a defense that doesn't need to be planned around a 3-6 second sitting duck phase and the 1-2 second post-coital delay would be handy.
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#23 Feb 08 2011 at 6:35 AM Rating: Default
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Oh certainly, this very heavily relies on your support. The job's defensive/solo shortcoming are pretty apparent, I was just stating some points that would help RNG become less of an MP sink as well as keeping up the offense while taking hits. (Unfortunately, in this case you still lose the "sweet spot" advantage, one thing you simply cannot remedy unless there's a solid tank holding the mob in place, or the mob is immobile to start with).

As for losing RA time performing defensive abilities, well, that's why I mentioned /NIN is bad. /SAM all you have is Third Eye with Seigan up, you have nothing else to worry about defense wise. You can switch your gear just as efficiently as any melee while keeping up your shooting. There really is no alternative to /SAM for taking hits on RNG, /NIN just doesn't cut it unless you're trying to avoid blinkable AoEs when not being the main tank yourself.

And you don't really lose much offensive power switching to PDT gear, sure, your shots aren't as powerful as they can be in max DD gear, but consider this, do you actually RA in Antlion Arrows? Or do you use Demon/Scorp and WS in Antlion only? You're not using your full potential while RAing eitherway, no harm losing a slight bit more and surviving long enough to WS another time :p

Regarding !! procs, RNG only gets Energy Drain, Cyclone, and Seraph Strike (if /SAM), and Archery/Marks + Shadowstitch for blue, so you'd definitely need more people if you're after them. Although if going after blue only, and depending on whether the mob can be deaggroed or not, you could keep resetting blue !! during piercing to get Archery/Marks. I used that tactic myself to get my Sylvan Earring solo with my WHM mule.

Oh, and atmas I use depend on the mob, I suppose. Defensively, I'd go for regen (Sea Daughter has 30 during daytime, so a plus there), and I used to use Vicissitude + RR. Though I figured RR + GH simply make the fight go faster (I personally wouldn't pick VV over RR, even without Jishnu's, crit rate is simply too good). If you'd rather more regen than damage, Sea Daughter, Vis, and Mounted Champ offer ~85 regen per tick with Regen 4 from WHM, plus a decent amount of VIT+def, which admittedly won't really help THAT much, but are nice nevertheless.

I find with all this and enough effort in putting together different gearsets, RNG can be pushed to new heights away from the standard stay back and shoot while riding the hate line and getting yelled at by melee.

Unfortunately, this doesn't mean that RNG can tank everything or duo everything with a WHM like some other jobs, but it certainly opens up a lot of opportunities.
I myself use THF more than RNG, since Evasion is just too broken in FFXI, has been since the 75 days, lol. Still, Jishnu's is so much fun, I'd use RNG any chance I don't NEED THF, and I would recommend everyone get a Harrier, if Gandiva is a bit out of reach.

Oh, and Noodle, I agree an upgrade to the RA system like you mentioned would change RNG for the best, perhaps we should submit the ideas to SE support, they seem to be listening these days, lol.

Edited, Feb 8th 2011 7:37am by Kyatasutorofii
#24 Feb 08 2011 at 10:56 AM Rating: Default
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Kyatasutorofii wrote:
And you don't really lose much offensive power switching to PDT gear, sure, your shots aren't as powerful as they can be in max DD gear, but consider this, do you actually RA in Antlion Arrows? Or do you use Demon/Scorp and WS in Antlion only? You're not using your full potential while RAing eitherway, no harm losing a slight bit more and surviving long enough to WS another time :p

Regarding !! procs, RNG only gets Energy Drain, Cyclone, and Seraph Strike (if /SAM), and Archery/Marks + Shadowstitch for blue, so you'd definitely need more people if you're after them. Although if going after blue only, and depending on whether the mob can be deaggroed or not, you could keep resetting blue !! during piercing to get Archery/Marks. I used that tactic myself to get my Sylvan Earring solo with my WHM mule.
I don't use Archery except for Triggers, but before the level cap increases I fulltimed Kabura arrows. If I started using archery again I would fulltime Antlion Arrows, yes.

Also you missed Evisceration.

Edit: There's much more wrong with your post aswell but it's 2AM so I wont pick at it now.

Edited, Feb 8th 2011 4:58pm by Noodles
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#25 Feb 08 2011 at 11:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dartagnann wrote:
Why they just can't give us a big enmity shedding ability so we don't have to worry about these issues baffles me.


"Hai guys RNG is going to get less enmity per ranged attack!"

Day of the update....

"lol, yeah RNGs, about that... No."

Biggest troll decision SE has ever made, beating even DW1 for THF and "Part 1 of the epic conclusion of WotG" IMO.

They do seem to be less unbalanced in jobs now, however. Instead of a few unnamed jobs being all you'd bring DD wise people actually won't laugh at you for wanting to come RNG/THF/BST/etc.
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THF on HNM attack in Binary. 10010110101
#26 Feb 08 2011 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
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3,917 posts
Of course the problem in tanking in -PDT gear and being RNG is the whole nerf issue to begin with.
We are penalized for standing anywhere near the mob in our damage. And its a pretty significant hit now with the True Shot ability adding even more damage to correct distancing.

You add a distance nerf and a gear nerf, and that makes RNG tanking in -PDT gear pretty unexciting for the price of entry.

I don't want defense on RNG. I want the mob to stay put while I put out equivalent damage to any MNK, NIN or WAR out there. Given I pay for my damage in gil, is that really too much to ask?

I see the relevancy of RNG continuing to fade with each gained Atma that helps melee DD more than it helps ranged attackers. Sea Daughter is nice but it doesn't compare to what RR/VV has done for MNK, NIN, DNC, THF, BLU, etc.
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Mirabelle
Race: Mithra
Server: Ifrit
75COR/75RDM/75RNG/45THF/37BLM/38WHM/37NIN/37DRK/41BLU/37DNC/37SAM/37WAR/37SCH
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