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#1 Jan 24 2011 at 7:39 PM Rating: Decent
I'm more than a little disappointed that SE's idea of growing RNG's weapon damage is to add cost prohibitively expensive ammo to our **** Silvers and Demons/Kaburas were expensive enough! To get the full advantage of higher levels, we need to pay three times as much in ammo? We all knew the costs when we signed up for the job - you would need to pay to play with the highest damage weapons in the game. A badge of honor I wore proudly at 75.

But the expense implied by SE to go with top of the line ammo is getting ridiculous. They didn't release a system to get this ammo, just the ability to pay for a more extravagant synth. In a way I wonder if this is part of SE's idea of throwing the crafters a bone - introduce few consumable synths per craft that will leave them profitable to anyone who needs the gil badly enough.

Why couldn't they just say that ammo has come as far as it will, and increase weapon damage at a rate commensurate with other weapons? I'm willing to suspend my disbelief that for levels 1-75, base damage increases at one rate, and a higher rate 75-99 for the sake of not tripling expenses to get the rightful boost to base damage as we progress.

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 5:41pm by tertoonetwothreefour

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 5:41pm by tertoonetwothreefour
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#2 Jan 25 2011 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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Dweomer bullets are actually really cheap to make... around 5k/stack before HQs. That's easily cheaper than silver bullets, I just won't sell them cheap if people are willing to pay me more. And I don't make them too often because there are other, more lucrative things at the moment.

Dark adaman bullets, on the other hand.... well, they would have been ok if darksteel prices hadn't gone through the roof. On some servers it's probably still reasonable. But premium price for premium ammo, that's part of being a RNG.

As for bolts... fusion bolts are dirt cheap to make. Something like 2k/stack before HQs. But without any new crossbows, bolts are falling out of favor. Dark adaman bolts are much more economical than the bullets, and should come in at 4-6k/stack on most servers.

When it comes to arrows, Ruszor are hard to price because you simply cannot get the materials unless you farm yourself. There's nothing inherently expensive about making them, other than the fact that nobody wants to fight gnats or ruszors. Antlion arrows, on the other hand, are about the cheapest thing ever. They're made from readily available materials, and you should be able to make a stack of quivers for under 10k.

The real problem, imo, is that too many people are Q.Qing about how there's no gil in crafting instead of researching and making new things at competitive prices. And not enough people have leveled synergy. Meanwhile, there aren't a lot of RNGs left (the bandwagon RNGs mostly jumped ship years ago), so demand for premium ammo is low to begin with. That leaves me, as a goldsmith and synergist, not super motivated to make a ton of ammo. Some of the precursor synths require me to go find someone to make, because nobody bothers otherwise. Some of the synergies I then need an afk partner for. And even if I synth a pile of fusion bolts, I might sell a stack of quivers for 100k profit. Why should I go through all of that, when there are other synths I can do for 100-500k profit each?
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#3 Jan 25 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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THe whole ammo thing is horribly broken as the two posts in this thread demonstrate.

RNG's are **** at the gouging. Crafters don't see demand worth the effort. So you end up with minimal amounts of overpriced ammo.

I think SE really needs to think about RNG some more. When I last checked the server there were precisely 6 RNG and 6 COR, two fo the most consumable heavy jobs out there. That's about a third of what was seen prior to the level cap increases started.

I love ranged jobs. ALways have. But I hate that ammo is hard to get and/or overpriced. I hate that none of my WS are used to proc red. I hate that QD isn't used for yellow procs. I hate that I haven't been give an easily obtainable decent upgrade to SW. I hate that few Atma's seem designed for RNG. I hate that there is hardly anyone on this forum anymore to even discuss the job and new changes.

Hear that SE. DOn't make me feel forced to level BLM. Put some more effort into fixing the job like you did BLM.
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#4 Jan 28 2011 at 3:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Ruszor arrows are actually dirt cheap to make.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#5 Jan 28 2011 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Ruszor arrows are actually dirt cheap to make.


Well its entirely dependent on supplies of ruzsor fangs and gnat wings. The gnat wings aren't too terrible to come across since some people do gnat parties in Aby Attowha. Ruszor fangs on the other hand are very hit or miss on the AH. That and the fact that so few people synergize on our server, these arrows are in short supply (and 30k a stack).

Someday i'll have to work on synergy, but I'm thinking its kind of pointless until we hit the 99 cap and see what the final endgame ammo will be. For now I'm using m limited time to work on AF3 upgrades and atmas/abyssites which is taking a lot of my limited playtime.
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#6 Feb 01 2011 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Someday i'll have to work on synergy, but I'm thinking its kind of pointless until we hit the 99 cap and see what the final endgame ammo will be. For now I'm using m limited time to work on AF3 upgrades and atmas/abyssites which is taking a lot of my limited playtime.


This is why all this stuff is so expensive. 90% of crafters have this same attitude. "I'll get to synergy someday".

I spent a crap-ton of time like... 4 years ago... capping out all my crafts, b/c I didn't want to spend time leveling crafts again. Then they release this synergy BS, and every new recipe that comes out requires it. Very frustrating. I'd rather spend my limited time in game having fun in Abyssea than adding fuel to a furnace or whatever the frak synergy is supposed to be...
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#7 Feb 02 2011 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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This is why all this stuff is so expensive. 90% of crafters have this same attitude. "I'll get to synergy someday".


Yes. I do dislike it when SE introduces something that proves to be unpopular and they try to force it down your throat. No one likes synergy. It didn't improve crafting. Yet SE seems to think we should just love and embrace it. And so they just make all the new recipes for expendables require it. So nothing shows up on the AH and when it does its incredibly overpriced.
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#8 Feb 02 2011 at 10:40 AM Rating: Good
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Dartagnann wrote:
Yes. I do dislike it when SE introduces something that proves to be unpopular and they try to force it down your throat. No one likes synergy. It didn't improve crafting. Yet SE seems to think we should just love and embrace it. And so they just make all the new recipes for expendables require it. So nothing shows up on the AH and when it does its incredibly overpriced.


I actually DO like it. It eliminates a lot of the problems associated with the old crafting system, and it offers rewards to people who want to get into something new, rather than being an exclusive club for those who hit 100 years ago. There is, of course, incentive to have a regular craft leveled as well. I've made some good bank on +7 rings, which I can make all by myself thanks to having goldsmithing leveled. But I've made more gil on recipes where I had to go find an alchemist or a blacksmith to party up with. At times it can be annoying to have to find someone to team up with, but the ability to do so also opens up a ton of opportunities. That Alcide's Harness +1 that I made a while back? Never would have happened without the ability to borrow a random bonecrafter for 2 minutes.

Some of the real holdups are things I've talked about before... hard to get materials, lack of precursor synths, etc. Part of this is due to players focusing all their time on other stuff. But I also believe that a big part of the problem is that the huge diversity of items and materials is grown beyond what the auction house system can handle in its current state. Mainly, I'm talking about the seven item limit, and the three day bounce. With the number of players shrinking and the number of items increasing, there are a lot of things are are simply not worth listing on the AH because they are unlikely to sell.

There are two things I would suggest to SE (and have posted about previously) that would help this situation. First would be to increase the number of items that we can list, and the length of time before they are returned. I would even be happy to have the option to pay a higher fee - double, perhaps - to have something stay up for 2 weeks instead of 3 days. I have a ton of things I would be happy to make and list if my slots weren't limited and if I didn't have to babysit my sales and relist items as frequently.

The other suggestion would be to bridge the AHs across multiple (or even all) servers. This obviously would be a far greater technical challenge, but it would do wonders in terms of evening out supply, demand, and price for a large number of items. It would also make it more difficult for any one person to corner the market on a given item, which would be a good thing for most of us.

Anyhow, IMO, the best way to boost the crafting system right now isn't to do away with synergy, but to improve the AH system that supports it.
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#9 Feb 03 2011 at 4:20 AM Rating: Decent
Up to about 50k, I can't bring myself to go to the AH to list items that will just be undercut and returned. I've dropped many an item on my mog floor because I don't want to spend the 7 minutes it takes to list something after a night's adventuring.

Zone twice, get walk blocked through crowds, find each item in the sluggish browse feature, just to profit in a currency that doesn't even apply to the game's premier weapons and armor? {Pass}.
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#10 Feb 03 2011 at 8:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I actually DO like it.


Glad there is someone out there that does.
Wish there were more of you. And wish there were some of you that didn't hold your synergy skills in such high regard that you gouge customers 10x the mat cost for arrows and bullets.

I'll likely get around to levelling it someday just because I can't abide the gouging currently going on.

And I'm not sure I agree with allowing items to stay on the AH longer. That seems like a recipe to keep the prices high.
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#11 Feb 05 2011 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not a RNG really anymore (I left it at 75) but quite frankly, the cost should be that high IF you guys were the powerhouses of DD you were originally. I would not mind taking a backseat to RNGs and nuking NINs in the DD department. If you pay for your damage you deserve to have a higher potential.

ATM it seems like you guys pay a ton to be on par, which leaves only the diehard RNGs wanting to level the job. That being said I would much prefer they remove that silly melee RNG nerf and increase your DD aspects and make you guys BMWs that run on jet fuel instead of toyotas that run on diesel.

That's just my opinion though, not saying it's right. Cheaper ammo with the same DD potential might be the more preferred route amongst people.
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#12 Feb 06 2011 at 6:02 AM Rating: Default
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Melee rng nerf? You mean velocity shot? It's not a melee nerf, it's a ranged buff. You don't have to use it if you don't want to.
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#13 Feb 06 2011 at 6:25 AM Rating: Good
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No, the nerf that made ranged attacks less potent from the front lines. RNGs used to be able to front line, swing twice with daggers and fire a shot making them massive TP/DD machines. Back in the day the TP gain was considered "Unbalanced" because they introduced the sweet spot system. I believe Velocity Shot was introduced some weeks later to help encourage standing back even more. A kclub or Mkris RNG couldn't be touched back then, and no melees **** if the RNG took hate and made them run.
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#14 Feb 06 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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No, the nerf that made ranged attacks less potent from the front lines. RNGs used to be able to front line, swing twice with daggers and fire a shot making them massive TP/DD machines. Back in the day the TP gain was considered "Unbalanced" because they introduced the sweet spot system. I believe Velocity Shot was introduced some weeks later to help encourage standing back even more. A kclub or Mkris RNG couldn't be touched back then, and no melees **** if the RNG took hate and made them run.


Oh don't bring back the painful memories of the good old days. We've been reduced to a job that you sometimes bring for those rare fights that you need damage from afar and it can't be nukes. And yet in a lot of those fights it still seems my COR is superior with QD offering tp free damage and regain giving me TP for WS.

I honestly would pay 30k a stack for arrows if they made me a better DD than I am today. But 30k a stack to be on par with others and inferior to some.... just irks me. And its another reason that COR, RNG and PUP remain lowest played jobs.
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#15 Feb 07 2011 at 3:08 AM Rating: Default
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ElvaanTHF wrote:
No, the nerf that made ranged attacks less potent from the front lines. RNGs used to be able to front line, swing twice with daggers and fire a shot making them massive TP/DD machines. Back in the day the TP gain was considered "Unbalanced" because they introduced the sweet spot system. I believe Velocity Shot was introduced some weeks later to help encourage standing back even more. A kclub or Mkris RNG couldn't be touched back then, and no melees **** if the RNG took hate and made them run.
Ranged damage was better from the "sweet spot" years before velocity shot was introduced.
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#16 Feb 07 2011 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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Ranged damage was better from the "sweet spot" years before velocity shot was introduced.


Which was the original point. The RNG nerf was to make ranged damage and accuracy worse from in close. Moving RNG from melee range nerfed their TP gain and thus a significant part of their damage. It also made them move mobs whenever they WS'd so that other melees could miss their WS's, making RNG all but useless in a zerg situation. RNG became a job people only needed for kited NM's which became few and far between after the introduction of the 2H update, BRD merits, Angon and Feint. Then most NM's were zerged by SAMs, DRKS and WARs and RNG and BLM were much less useful.

But I'm sure I don't need to discuss history. None of us were talking about velocity shot being a nerf. VS was a buff to try to answer the original nerf. But it never answered the problem of how does a RNG do dmg at range and not pull the mob away from the other melee? That's the crux of why RNG doesn't get played that much. That and our DD capabilities have not kept up to other DD jobs. When SAM's and DRK's were whiffing half their swings, it was much closer. Hasn't been that way for a while.
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#17 Feb 07 2011 at 1:15 PM Rating: Decent
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My biggest problem with ranger is it has no defence at all, and because of the way ranged atttacking works, you can't tank at all.
For example, any normal melee can cast utsusemi any time during their melee attack round, as the actual attack is instant and after that is just a delay befor the next round. Rangers have a delay during their attack aswell as after that, during which point you can not cast any spells or use any JAs. This makes it impossible to deal any form of damage or defend at the same time. Furthermore with no form of self damage mitigation, you're reduced to relying on luck-based seigan, or stopping any form of DD completely to cast utsusemi, which will basically involve: you pulling hate and having to recast ni after 3 attacks, then almost immidiately casting ichi after another two attacks, then taking hits because your timers still have 15 seconds on them. Seriously, it's like tanking on nin with just ichi back when we were lvling SJs to 37. Cast it before engaging, cast it after 2 hits, then having to sponge MP till it's timer is up again.

Not only can we not do worthwhile damage, but we can't even defend ourselves should our lackluster damage pull hate.
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#18 Feb 08 2011 at 12:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Not only can we not do worthwhile damage, but we can't even defend ourselves should our lackluster damage pull hate.


Admittedly, good points as well. I'm not sure SE has the will to fix it. THey seem to be so scared of recreating RNG as the monster DD it once was, that they always come short with any attempt o fix the job.

Why they just can't give us a big enmity shedding ability so we don't have to worry about these issues baffles me.
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#19 Feb 08 2011 at 12:57 AM Rating: Decent
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You can still hold out well enough with good PDT gear.
RNG is probably the only DD that gets away with using an Earth staff and not suffering much damage reduction.

You can easily cap PDT with Earth staff, PDT bow, and an assortment of accessories, and can get a max of 47% without the bow if you bother to get all the good ring/earring augments. (20 staff, 5 neck, 4 ASA legs, 6+6 rings, 2+2 earrings, 2 Denali hands)
I have 41% myself because my luck with augments has always been terrible. Stopped making use the PDT bow since I got Jishnu's.

MDT is even easier to cap because you only need 22-26% depending on the Shell you're getting from your mages.

With /SAM, Seigan, Third Eye, and a good WHM, you should never hit the dirt, as rarely anything can one shot you through capped PDT and MDT. Just make use of proper gear macros and switch out accordingly. No harm in TPing in full PDT if you know you are the one tanking.

/NIN is pointless for tanking, lack of evasion on RNG (255 base at 90) means you spend all your time recasting shadows which means you wouldn't even be tanking for the lack of damage output.

This is not me theorycrafting here, I've personally solo tanked a bunch of Abyssea NMs without fail using a PDT set, including Yaanei, Sippoy, Kutharei, Ningishzida, and well, you get the point.

My only gripe about RNG is that they get 0 benefit from things like Haste, DA, and TA to push our damage up like they do for melee DDs. (Though I suppose the lack of the need for Haste is what makes Sea Daughter Atma so good for us)
#20 Feb 08 2011 at 4:11 AM Rating: Decent
What atmas do you use for RNG tanking? The idea has always intrigued me, but been too much work for meh results in the situations I envision myself in. RNG can't proc as well as a WAR if you're the only melee, and doesn't have its gaps in WS repertoire filled by another useful job a la NIN+MNK.
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#21 Feb 08 2011 at 5:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Kyatasutorofii wrote:
This is not me theorycrafting here, I've personally solo tanked a bunch of Abyssea NMs without fail using a PDT set, including Yaanei, Sippoy, Kutharei, Ningishzida, and well, you get the point.
That's not an argument for the strength of ranger, that's an argument for the strength of whm with all the refresh they get now.

It's still not the main point. The problem is that you have to stop attacking in order to do anything vaguely defensive. You have to stop shooting and wait for the delay during and after the shot before you can do anything. You may have a decent PDT set, but I don't like the idea of fulltiming PDT weapons. The fact that you need to have a full PDT set to make you an even remotely plausible makeshift tank is proof of how bad the job is defensively.
When any other DD takes hate, they can pop up their defences and tank for a while whilst still accumulating TP and attacking, swinging between and during shadow casting or putting up whatever other defensive JA they have. Rng can't. Because of the stupid way ranged attacks are performed, you either stand there in DEF gear praying to the seigan god, OR you're attacking. You can't do both.

It's the ranged attack system that is the biggest flaw. I understand it "doesn't make sense" to be able to use a JA or spell mid-shot as it'll disrupt your accuracy, but by that same argument if I was aiming with my gun and then some big beast went to attack me, you'd better believe I'd stop aiming and do whatever needs be to get some kind of defensive up.
If we were for example able to use any JA or spell mid-shot, but doing so canceled that shot, then that would at least be a step in the right direction. An even better one would be to have the ranger's attack completely done and calculated immidiately like a melee swing with the delay now being the time before you could take another immidiate shot (reloading time or some **** which would allow you to use a JA or spell at any time just like when meleeing. You could add a rule like the delay after the shot befor you can fire again also works for when you can next swing a melee weapon - EG shoot then have to wait 4 seconds before you can shoot again and also having to wait the same 4 seconds before you can do a melee swing which would A: help us calulate snapshot better and B: stop melees abusing it for instant TP.
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#22 Feb 08 2011 at 5:26 AM Rating: Decent
I'd still like bow counter. If you get swung at and your shot is "interrupted", you shoot immediately to preclude/mitigate that attack. SE would probably reduce damage the damage of the shot or the TP gained so it doesn't become a mechanism to fire our high damage and delay weapons at the delay of the attacking mob.

But still, a defense that doesn't need to be planned around a 3-6 second sitting duck phase and the 1-2 second post-coital delay would be handy.
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#23 Feb 08 2011 at 6:35 AM Rating: Default
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Oh certainly, this very heavily relies on your support. The job's defensive/solo shortcoming are pretty apparent, I was just stating some points that would help RNG become less of an MP sink as well as keeping up the offense while taking hits. (Unfortunately, in this case you still lose the "sweet spot" advantage, one thing you simply cannot remedy unless there's a solid tank holding the mob in place, or the mob is immobile to start with).

As for losing RA time performing defensive abilities, well, that's why I mentioned /NIN is bad. /SAM all you have is Third Eye with Seigan up, you have nothing else to worry about defense wise. You can switch your gear just as efficiently as any melee while keeping up your shooting. There really is no alternative to /SAM for taking hits on RNG, /NIN just doesn't cut it unless you're trying to avoid blinkable AoEs when not being the main tank yourself.

And you don't really lose much offensive power switching to PDT gear, sure, your shots aren't as powerful as they can be in max DD gear, but consider this, do you actually RA in Antlion Arrows? Or do you use Demon/Scorp and WS in Antlion only? You're not using your full potential while RAing eitherway, no harm losing a slight bit more and surviving long enough to WS another time :p

Regarding !! procs, RNG only gets Energy Drain, Cyclone, and Seraph Strike (if /SAM), and Archery/Marks + Shadowstitch for blue, so you'd definitely need more people if you're after them. Although if going after blue only, and depending on whether the mob can be deaggroed or not, you could keep resetting blue !! during piercing to get Archery/Marks. I used that tactic myself to get my Sylvan Earring solo with my WHM mule.

Oh, and atmas I use depend on the mob, I suppose. Defensively, I'd go for regen (Sea Daughter has 30 during daytime, so a plus there), and I used to use Vicissitude + RR. Though I figured RR + GH simply make the fight go faster (I personally wouldn't pick VV over RR, even without Jishnu's, crit rate is simply too good). If you'd rather more regen than damage, Sea Daughter, Vis, and Mounted Champ offer ~85 regen per tick with Regen 4 from WHM, plus a decent amount of VIT+def, which admittedly won't really help THAT much, but are nice nevertheless.

I find with all this and enough effort in putting together different gearsets, RNG can be pushed to new heights away from the standard stay back and shoot while riding the hate line and getting yelled at by melee.

Unfortunately, this doesn't mean that RNG can tank everything or duo everything with a WHM like some other jobs, but it certainly opens up a lot of opportunities.
I myself use THF more than RNG, since Evasion is just too broken in FFXI, has been since the 75 days, lol. Still, Jishnu's is so much fun, I'd use RNG any chance I don't NEED THF, and I would recommend everyone get a Harrier, if Gandiva is a bit out of reach.

Oh, and Noodle, I agree an upgrade to the RA system like you mentioned would change RNG for the best, perhaps we should submit the ideas to SE support, they seem to be listening these days, lol.

Edited, Feb 8th 2011 7:37am by Kyatasutorofii
#24 Feb 08 2011 at 10:56 AM Rating: Default
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Kyatasutorofii wrote:
And you don't really lose much offensive power switching to PDT gear, sure, your shots aren't as powerful as they can be in max DD gear, but consider this, do you actually RA in Antlion Arrows? Or do you use Demon/Scorp and WS in Antlion only? You're not using your full potential while RAing eitherway, no harm losing a slight bit more and surviving long enough to WS another time :p

Regarding !! procs, RNG only gets Energy Drain, Cyclone, and Seraph Strike (if /SAM), and Archery/Marks + Shadowstitch for blue, so you'd definitely need more people if you're after them. Although if going after blue only, and depending on whether the mob can be deaggroed or not, you could keep resetting blue !! during piercing to get Archery/Marks. I used that tactic myself to get my Sylvan Earring solo with my WHM mule.
I don't use Archery except for Triggers, but before the level cap increases I fulltimed Kabura arrows. If I started using archery again I would fulltime Antlion Arrows, yes.

Also you missed Evisceration.

Edit: There's much more wrong with your post aswell but it's 2AM so I wont pick at it now.

Edited, Feb 8th 2011 4:58pm by Noodles
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#25 Feb 08 2011 at 11:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dartagnann wrote:
Why they just can't give us a big enmity shedding ability so we don't have to worry about these issues baffles me.


"Hai guys RNG is going to get less enmity per ranged attack!"

Day of the update....

"lol, yeah RNGs, about that... No."

Biggest troll decision SE has ever made, beating even DW1 for THF and "Part 1 of the epic conclusion of WotG" IMO.

They do seem to be less unbalanced in jobs now, however. Instead of a few unnamed jobs being all you'd bring DD wise people actually won't laugh at you for wanting to come RNG/THF/BST/etc.
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#26 Feb 08 2011 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Of course the problem in tanking in -PDT gear and being RNG is the whole nerf issue to begin with.
We are penalized for standing anywhere near the mob in our damage. And its a pretty significant hit now with the True Shot ability adding even more damage to correct distancing.

You add a distance nerf and a gear nerf, and that makes RNG tanking in -PDT gear pretty unexciting for the price of entry.

I don't want defense on RNG. I want the mob to stay put while I put out equivalent damage to any MNK, NIN or WAR out there. Given I pay for my damage in gil, is that really too much to ask?

I see the relevancy of RNG continuing to fade with each gained Atma that helps melee DD more than it helps ranged attackers. Sea Daughter is nice but it doesn't compare to what RR/VV has done for MNK, NIN, DNC, THF, BLU, etc.
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#27 Feb 08 2011 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
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I don't really have an issue so much with MNK and NIN damage so much as the fact that they output such high damage WHILE being an effective tank. Given that MNK and NIN can tank very effectively, RNG -SHOULD- do superior damage to them. All RNG can really bring for the most part is damage and they are the only TRUE glass cannon left in the game. Thing is of course, when RNG's have to turtle up through shadows or whatnot, their damage drops quite a bit, but this is exactly what should happen, regardless of class. However, for whatever reason, this is not the case for the current 'tanks' and hasn't been for quite some time now. Defense comes at the cost of offense, it's Basic RPG Design 101. Why on earth hasn't this been addressed?
#28 Feb 09 2011 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
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I started this game on NA launch date with the whole intent on being a RNG one day, and god damnit if I'm giving it up. I was there through the highs and lows of RNG. My Abyssea static laugh that I actively want to go after RNG gear, telling me over and over again that RNG is probably the most worthless job in the game now. Even before Abyssea, I was reduced to a Shadowbind biotch.

People have pointed out most the problems over and over again within this thread so there is no point in beating a dead horse. SE won't change it anytime soon, right now they are making so much of this game for NIN, MNKs and WARs, it gets old.

Why I had to pick two jobs to be my favorites that SE laughs at the most, RNG and WHM.
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#29 Feb 10 2011 at 8:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Kolvar wrote:
I was reduced to a Shadowbind biotch.
I was always more of a Ixion/Sand Worm Widescan ****
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#30 Feb 10 2011 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Why I had to pick two jobs to be my favorites that SE laughs at the most, RNG and WHM.


WHM?
That's easily one of the best jobs in the game now. Cure V and VI and almost limitless MP. How do you think all those MNK's survive tanking.
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#31 Feb 10 2011 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Agreed, when MP is a non-issue, the hate (or lack thereof) of C5 and C6 makes whm very very strong. Also they proc like half of the light day grellow spells :p
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#32 Feb 11 2011 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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Dartagnann wrote:
How do you think all those MNK's survive tanking.

C5 and C6 are also the reason WHMs can survive cure-bombing those MNKs. If I had to keep someone's HP bar full with C3/4 alone (if I could even keep up, likely not) I'd probably have major enmity issues. I don't mind curing on SCH or RDM for XP, but when it comes to NMs, I don't even consider a job other than WHM. Besides, do you know how long it takes to fill 4k HP with C4? Lol.

Edited, Feb 11th 2011 11:27am by VxSote
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#33 Feb 11 2011 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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I really don't know what the solution could be. There is a natural limit on how much damage a ranger can do. As soon as you pull hate and the mob is 3.0' away from you damage drops significantly. Even if rangers could take a hit better there would still be an artificial limit on damage because as soon as you pulled hate the distance penalty would kill you (and then we get to watch mnks pump out 3k damage while we run back to the sweet spot).

Not only that, even if rangers sub ninja for a little survivability, they just can't utilize utsu the way melee do. When a melee loses shadows they simply cast utsu. When a ranger loses shadows they have to wait for their current /ra to end to cast utsu, all the while getting pummeled. I stopped playing ranger when I actually put off hitting my /ra macro in order to wait for the mob to take 2 more shadows so I could reapply them.

It just seems like an exercise in futility to me. There is no point to gearing rng to its very best because all that will do is make the mob come at you sooner. I really enjoyed the job for over half a decade, and no doubt many 'lifers' will not be sad that one more poser like me has gone on to greener pastures. But until there are major enmity changes and great rangers are rewarded with something more than a 2 ton dragon bashing their face in 30 seconds sooner than average rangers receive the same 'reward'.....
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#34 Feb 11 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Besides, do you know how long it takes to fill 4k HP with C4? Lol.


Yes. As someone that has tried to heal for NM fights with RDM, I know exactly of what you speek. I spent the whole time just casting Cure 4 over and over again and if it wasn't for Atma of Allure for major enm-, I would have been top of the hate list pretty quickly.

Quote:
I really enjoyed the job for over half a decade, and no doubt many 'lifers' will not be sad that one more poser like me has gone on to greener pastures. But until there are major enmity changes and great rangers are rewarded with something more than a 2 ton dragon bashing their face in 30 seconds sooner than average rangers receive the same 'reward'.....


I'd prefer to call you "someone that's seen the light" rather than a "poser". I love RNG too. Almost as much as I love COR. But I feel a lot less useful in my LS on those jobs than in the past.

I still think the answer is in a major enmity effect rather than in a major defense upgrade. We need the target to stay at a distance to be effective DD'ers. IF it moves, we **** ourselves and the DD of other melees. The only conceivable fix i can see for that is to change the enmity equation for ranged damage. In fact I'd suggest that SE put our sweetspot in AoE range (say Xbow distance for all ranged attacks) and make ranged shots cause minimal enmity. Then we can still take damage so we aren't "safe", but we won't move the mob and **** off everyone else including ourselves.
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#35 Feb 12 2011 at 1:51 AM Rating: Decent
I'm sick of caring about this job. I feel like a god **** Cubs fan. And I'm not even old enough to remember the glory days.

Though I technically won every parse I partook in before Abyssea... ;o
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#36 Feb 12 2011 at 4:03 AM Rating: Default
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Dartagnann wrote:
Quote:
Besides, do you know how long it takes to fill 4k HP with C4? Lol.


Yes. As someone that has tried to heal for NM fights with RDM, I know exactly of what you speek. I spent the whole time just casting Cure 4 over and over again and if it wasn't for Atma of Allure for major enm-, I would have been top of the hate list pretty quickly.
Shouln't need Allure's -enmity for Cure4. It's not that hard to hit the -enmity cap of 50: Pax Grip, Goliard Head, Delta Earring, Goliard Saio, Seraph Mittens, Trooper's Ring, Errant Cape, Theta Sash, Mahatma legs, Crow Gaiters. That's 46 and it's all easy stuff to get. It's capped with -enmity merits, 4 off cap without, and that is excluding any high-price items like Novia Earring or Flygja Torque or Failnaught, all of which would let you drop some of the worser pieces for more MND or Cure Pot.
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#37 Feb 12 2011 at 8:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Shouln't need Allure's -enmity for Cure4. It's not that hard to hit the -enmity cap of 50: Pax Grip, Goliard Head, Delta Earring, Goliard Saio, Seraph Mittens, Trooper's Ring, Errant Cape, Theta Sash, Mahatma legs, Crow Gaiters. That's 46 and it's all easy stuff to get. It's capped with -enmity merits, 4 off cap without, and that is excluding any high-price items like Novia Earring or Flygja Torque or Failnaught, all of which would let you drop some of the worser pieces for more MND or Cure Pot.


Rather keep my good gear on and use an Atma with 30 MND and -30 enm. If I'm mostly healing on RDM it's not like there are a lot better atoms out there.
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#38 Feb 12 2011 at 11:39 PM Rating: Decent
Isn't the goodness of a gear dependent on the task at hand..? lol
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#39 Feb 13 2011 at 9:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Isn't the goodness of a gear dependent on the task at hand


Yes and if I'm healing on RDM, MND, refresh, cure potency are my most important gears. With Allure I don't have to neglect those areas to stack a ton of -enm gear. And it gives an MP boost and MND as well, making it one of the best healing atmas around. Two refresh atmas and Allure and I'm a healing machine... Aside from the fact SE won't give RDM Cure V ; ;
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#40 Feb 13 2011 at 2:37 PM Rating: Decent
Refresh gear is not an important part of a cure set... And if losing 4 refresh MP from gear swapping is make-or-break to your mission, there are larger issues at hand.

As for MND, Allure's 30 MND on Cure IV will gain you about 9 HP (http://members.shaw.ca/pizza_steve/cure/Cure_Calculator.html). Atma of the Rescuer (10% cure potency) would do more for your cures.

On the enmity front, Minikin Monstrosity = 20, goliard saio 25, goliard chapeau 29, pax grip 33, novia earring 40, Estq. Hoseaux +2 47, -enmity merits = -50. Not that there is only one way to go on stacking enmity, I just throw together what I have laying around, mostly from WHM.

I like Allure objectively. Max MP just doesn't have a place over Refresh, Auto-Reraise, Curepot, or MAB atmas, and the other benefits can be compensated for with gear. Maybe Allure would help on WHM or RDM/SCH if you're trying to go for a conserve MP setup... Though to be honest, 10% lower magic costs and a free cure IV every four minutes hardly make up for lack of Stun, Dispel (it's a hassle to get to dispel on /SCH, eats a strat and makes you pop your arts recasts), Bind, sleepga, etc.
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#41 Feb 13 2011 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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The fact is, I don't have any better Atma for that 3rd slot. So why not use it. I don't have golliard gear and see no reason to get it. I don't have novia and again see no reason to get it. I have MM, Allure and Full Moon Atma which as a healer gives me 15 mp refresh, 30 MND, -50 enm, 40INT.
With that I have maxes potency on enfeebs, lots of mp for cures and capped enmity even before gear. So I can put on gear that lessens casting time and adds more refresh. There isn't much cure potency out there for RDM but I could gear that too. The last thing is too worry about enm gear.

Edit: and MAB Atma are useless to a healing RDM, which is what I was talking about. If you are main healer on RDM you are just casting CUre IV repetitively, other than haste on tank and a few enfeebs and -nas. You never have time to nuke in that situation. Maybe once we get cure V that will change. But healing in Abyssea on RDM is a cure IV fest.

Edited, Feb 13th 2011 1:48pm by Dartagnann
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#42 Feb 14 2011 at 1:30 AM Rating: Decent
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The fact is, I don't have any better Atma for that 3rd slot.


It's borderline irresponsible to go to an NM fight and not use Apoc. Yeah, **** isn't supposed to hit the fan. But when it does, would you prefer to homepoint and make your friends zombie kite it, or get back up and keep on tickin?
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#43 Feb 14 2011 at 7:26 AM Rating: Default
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Are you mainhealing a Mnk/War fulltiming Zerk/Counterstance or 2handers fulltiming Hasso (In which case you shouldn't be on Rdm main healing in the first place)? Otherwise there is 0 reason you don't have time to toss out nukes while main healing on Rdm. I'm not buying it.

Edited, Feb 14th 2011 9:26am by Neisan
#44 Feb 14 2011 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

It's borderline irresponsible to go to an NM fight and not use Apoc. Yeah, sh*t isn't supposed to hit the fan. But when it does, would you prefer to homepoint and make your friends zombie kite it, or get back up and keep on tickin?


I believe you have to beat Shinryu to get Apocalypse. Last I checked that wasn't handed to you when you enter Abyssea. Our LS does Abyssea main bosses and Caturae once a week and I've still got 3 Caturae to go. We're trying to make sure everyone gets through so there's been repeats in there and I've missed a couple weeks do to RL stuff. To say its irresponsible is a bit over the top. My view is that its irresponsible to neglect the real world to do stuff in a game.

Quote:
Are you mainhealing a Mnk/War fulltiming Zerk/Counterstance or 2handers fulltiming Hasso (In which case you shouldn't be on Rdm main healing in the first place)? Otherwise there is 0 reason you don't have time to toss out nukes while main healing on Rdm. I'm not buying it.


WHM leaves. You get asked to main heal on RDM. You do what you are asked. Tank is MNK. Its Cure IV spammage. Is that really a hard concept? Other people could handle nuking. Why risk getting caught in a long **** casting animation as your tank gets nailed with a big TP move? Just keep healing and win the fight. No use trying for hero points.

Seriously, some of you people need to get out more and see that, while this game is fun, there are other things more important in life than worrying about what atma you are toting.
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#45 Feb 14 2011 at 5:12 PM Rating: Decent
How is it not obvious to you that we're discussing hypothetical situations, and not literally bashing you for not having apoc?
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#46 Feb 15 2011 at 3:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:
Quote:
Shouln't need Allure's -enmity for Cure4. It's not that hard to hit the -enmity cap of 50: Pax Grip, Goliard Head, Delta Earring, Goliard Saio, Seraph Mittens, Trooper's Ring, Errant Cape, Theta Sash, Mahatma legs, Crow Gaiters. That's 46 and it's all easy stuff to get. It's capped with -enmity merits, 4 off cap without, and that is excluding any high-price items like Novia Earring or Flygja Torque or Failnaught, all of which would let you drop some of the worser pieces for more MND or Cure Pot.


Rather keep my good gear on and use an Atma with 30 MND and -30 enm. If I'm mostly healing on RDM it's not like there are a lot better atoms out there.
What good gear? Rdm gets sweet @#%^ all cure pot gear. add-on legs and head if they're not used for something else, fyljga torque, serpentes feet/hands, roundel earring. That's it. What else are you going to put in the other slots? Mnd? LolMND. In the other slots you put FC, Haste and -enmity. If you're concidering "good gear" and using all the Cure Pot stuff there then you could run with the setup:
Staff, Pax Grip, Failnaught
MKD Hat, Fyljga, Novia, Roundel
Goliard, Serpentes, Troopers, Metanoia
Errant Cape, Theta Sash, ASA Legs, Serpentes

That's using max Cure Pot gear, and haste in slots with no cure pot available (excepting waist). After that you still have -43 Enmity. -47 if you have -enmity merits, -48 if you +1 the fylgya torque. The augments I've used for ASA/MKD armors are cure pot and haste in both instances. If you put in a haste belt then you're down to -38 enmity.

With this your Allure atma is giving you MP (which you hardly ever need), MND (Which does very little for C4) and only -2 to -12 enmity.
What you should be using instead is any 3 of Rescuer, Harmony, Minkin, Ambition and Merciless Matriach if you're a dedicated healer.
Allure's +Mnd, +MP and -enmity is not better than any of those atmas (Minkin's Refresh, rescuer and Harmony's 10% cure pot, Merciless's Superior Macc and FC, and Ambition's refresh and FC).

Edited, Feb 15th 2011 9:35am by Noodles
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#47 Feb 15 2011 at 6:07 AM Rating: Decent
/vote Augur's Gloves and Estq. Hoseaux +2 feet, then a haste/enmity/cMP/costume enhancement belt.

What was this thread about again?

Also; Noodles why don't you count the -20 Enmity from Minikin? For a mage there is nothing else to consider as a top 3 atma; it gives you the MP to cast the spell, the -Enmity to get away with it, and the INT to make it count (admittedly to a lesser extent on non-INT mages).

Edited, Feb 15th 2011 4:10am by tertoonetwothreefour
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#48 Feb 15 2011 at 6:35 AM Rating: Default
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The Fast Cast on Matriarch is actually somewhat useless for Rdm, thanks to FC Trait Rdm caps FC in 2 pieces of gear (AF+Relic is actually abit over the FC cap but can't hit it with just one).
#49 Feb 15 2011 at 7:07 AM Rating: Decent
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tertoonetwothreefour wrote:
Also; Noodles why don't you count the -20 Enmity from Minikin?
Because I forgot about it. Minkin's -20 Enmity makes Allure even more worthless.

Quote:
The Fast Cast on Matriarch is actually somewhat useless for Rdm, thanks to FC Trait Rdm caps FC in 2 pieces of gear (AF+Relic is actually abit over the FC cap but can't hit it with just one).
That is true, if you're using Af Hat and Relic Body, Merciless's Fast Cast is irrelevant.
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#50 Feb 15 2011 at 8:24 AM Rating: Decent
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How is it not obvious to you that we're discussing hypothetical situations, and not literally bashing you for not having apoc?


I thought this all started when I mentioned a real situation where I had to heal a MNK.
Quote:
Yes. As someone that has tried to heal for NM fights with RDM, I know exactly of what you speek. I spent the whole time just casting Cure 4 over and over again and if it wasn't for Atma of Allure for major enm-, I would have been top of the hate list pretty quickly.

So it wasn't hypothetical. I was ranted on for using allure. An Atma with superior MND and superior -enm in a healing role.

Quote:
What you should be using instead is any 3 of Rescuer, Harmony, Minkin, Ambition and Merciless Matriach if you're a dedicated healer.


Well since I only have one of those, I guess I'm stuck. I wasn't aware that the mechanics of the game had changed and MND was no longer useful for Cures and enfeebs. I will avoid using Allure in the future.

Now can we get back on topic. RDM is a job I pull out when I'm made to, so discussing it on a RNG forum is getting tiresome.
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#51 Feb 15 2011 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
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MND has never been a worthwhile stat to use for Cure 4 unless there was no Haste/FC/-Enmity/Cure Pot available in that slot.

Comparing me saying MND is **** for Cure4 to mean "MND is **** for all healing and enfeebling spells" is **** retarded. Put down the spade and stop digging yourself a hole.

Also go get Harmony, takes like a few dom ops and a quick quest. Rescuer isn't exactly hard either concidering a pickup dyna-xarc group can usually kill DL now even without a full brd rotation.
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