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Trueflight: Agi, MAB, or FTPFollow

#1 Aug 05 2010 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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Hey guys. Relatively new rng, but been tweaking out a machine Xbow holy bolt/trueflight build lately (its lots of fun xD).

Anyway, Looking at trueflight gear ive been debating what to use as a neck piece. I stole the formula from wiki:
2*(AGI-EnemyAGI)+[fTP*(75+2+[.83*[.3*AGI]])]

The last time i messed with it (bat abyssea party in tahrongi) they were landing every time for 748-750 consistently when i had 100ish TP give or take a couple TP (little more if i had more TP). My gear then was 80+55 agi, 5% MAB(moldy) and Apollo staff. Since then i have picked up another 3 agi upgrading to lithe boots over enkidu. So i messed with the formula just to check and it hits 749 if i plug in 62 mob agi (didt do the flooring etc. Was lazy) which sounds reasonable.

Wanted to make sure im doing this right. Is apollo's just a 15% boost at the end: ie ((damage formula)*MABgear)*1.15apollo)? or is it MAB: ie (Damage formula)*(MAB gear+15ApolloMAB)?

Using that formula (apollo=straight+15% after everything else), it is showing, even with changing mob agi, that Arctier's torque(6agi)>Sea Gorget(0.1ftp)>Uggy pendant(8MAB) which suprised me.

So I also double checked my choice of suppa+moldy over the 8agi set earrings i have. Similarly, the additional 6 agi from the set is beating 5 MAB (makes sense as 6agi is beating 8MAB on neck).

Is this right? I was under the impression that MAB was like super uber for elemental WS, but not even uggy pendant is keeping up with the .1 ftp on a huge 4.0 base WS which are both getting blown away by 6agi.

Just want to make sure im doing this right before i change all my macros around, and I was planning on getting an uggy, but wont waste my time if its inferior.
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Edit: Also related. Just curious since i havent run the numbers yet, How does arctier's torque stand up to a gorget on slug? (not sidewinder). I can forgive -1 racc on torque easily enough if the damage boost is better. Guestimating it is probably pretty close as 5ftp to 5.1 is just a tiny 2% boost and -1racc is really negligible. Guestimate until i plug in the numbers later.


Edited, Aug 5th 2010 11:36am by Banalaty

Edited, Aug 5th 2010 12:00pm by Banalaty
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#2 Aug 05 2010 at 9:40 AM Rating: Decent
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HQ elemental staff bonus is 15%, not 25%.
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#3 Aug 05 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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Whoops xD dont know how i messed that up. But anyway, as i was doing it just like a piercing damage type bonus tacked on after everything is said and done, it doesnt change the relationship between agi/ftp/mab. Is my conclusion on that still right? (6agi>.1ftp>8mab)
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#4 Aug 05 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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Actually since i fixed my apollo staff numbers, the formula is saying those bats in tahrongi needed to have 36 agi for my damage to add up right (748+). So wtf is wrong with this? Want to make sure im doing this right so that im not acquiring the wrong gear.
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#5 Aug 05 2010 at 10:27 PM Rating: Decent
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bats are weak to piercing, so the bonus may even still kick in on them using TF.



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#6 Aug 06 2010 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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O_O That would be wierd. I was kinda banking on this being normal magic (holy bolts+light WS=Rng OK on bones/phy def mobs etc). That sounds really wierd. Ill go check on some level0 rabbits and bees to see if it works that way or not.

Has there really been so little info/interest in this WS? Or is the rng forum just this dead. I kinda figured Sea gorget Vs Uggy pendant would have been a dead horse topic by now and calcs for new Arctier's Torque (8 agi) would have already been done xD
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#7Deadonarrival, Posted: Aug 06 2010 at 12:39 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) General consensus, TF sux and not worth using over slugwinder, unless your in an extreme niche situation. Which cases you would most likely be better fared on a different job.
#8 Aug 06 2010 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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While true, it doesnt change the question. None of my jobs have any way to do elemental/non-physical damage besides lolPld and atonement onry. Holy bolt/Trueflight IS for a niche use. So i want to make sure I use it best as I am able. Im not being retarded and throwing away my Obow/Vbow and normal gear. Just trying to figure out how trueflight actually works for when i do need it.
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#9 Aug 06 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Disclaimer: I don't have Trueflight yet (maybe that's what I'll do this weekend), so I cannot, as of yet, offer more than just commentary. That said:

Aryden wrote:
bats are weak to piercing, so the bonus may even still kick in on them using TF.

Banalaty wrote:
O_O That would be wierd.

It would be weird, yes, but not without precedent. The drain effect from bloody bolts, for example, is affected by the bonus to piercing damage. Should be easy to test, in any case.

Also, I can't fault you for starting with the formula on the wiki, as I might be inclined to do the same. But just the way the formula is written makes it highly suspect. There are a lot of numbers just thrown in there for no apparent reason. 75 + 2 + 0.83 * 0.3 * AGI... really? Why not write that as 77 + 0.249 * AGI? Perhaps the brackets are intended to imply a flooring operation, as is commonly seen in the magic damage equation for nukes, but I doubt the analysis was that detailed.

Also, as you have noted, MAB isn't even given as a factor, nor is ESB (staff bonus) or any other modifiers. In the normal magic damage formula, MAB and ESB are compounded, not added, so it would be reasonable to start with that. It would also be prudent to verify the assumption. Either way, that should be done separately from the determination of the base damage formula.
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#10 Aug 06 2010 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
. 75 + 2 + 0.83 * 0.3 * AGI... really? Why not write that as 77 + 0.249 * AGI?


I dont know much about magic damage formula, but it does make sense from a melee perspective. The (0.83*(.3*agi)) is the 30% agi WS modifier. For every melee WS it is technically Floor(0.83*Floor(30%*agi))

The 0.83 is the 'alpha' based on your level (Wiki link). At lv 1 (or 3 technically as thats when you get a WS :P) a 50% mod WS is literally 2str=1 base damage. Perfect 50%. But at lv 75 all your stats are reduced to 0.83 effectiveness for some reason for the purposes of WS mod calculations. SE is wierd.

Anyway, so you take the 30% agi mod * your Agi. Floor that down to the nearest whole number. Then take that and multiply by your Alpha value (lv75=0.83) and floor that yet again and thats your WS mod bonus.

the 75+2 seems to be the WS "base damage" since it isnt based on a weapon. So it still looks like FTP*((base damage)+(WS mods)) It just has wierd Base damage. I dont know wtf is up with 75+2. cant imagine why its not just 77+WS mods.

Long story short, that part seems normal but doesnt have the standard flooring written in for no reason. Its the 2x(Agi-MobAgi) thats a little more like a magic formula replacing int with agi i guess (kinda a wierd version of Fstr). Not as familiar with magic stuffs.

Anyway, anyone with info prz halp! I just kinda assumed the rng board would have had all this and reamed me for another dead horse topic xD Guess its not so simple to find the answer for this one ><


Edited, Aug 6th 2010 6:52pm by Banalaty
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#11 Aug 06 2010 at 5:42 PM Rating: Good
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Banalaty wrote:

The 0.83 is the 'alpha' based on your level (Wiki link). At lv 1 (or 3 technically as thats when you get a WS :P) a 50% mod WS is literally 2str=1 base damage. Perfect 50%. But at lv 75 all your stats are reduced to 0.83 effectiveness for some reason for the purposes of WS mod calculations. SE is wierd.

Anyway, so you take the 30% agi mod * your Agi. Floor that down to the nearest whole number. Then take that and multiply by your Alpha value (lv75=0.83) and floor that yet again and thats your WS mod bonus.


1st place we could come into an issue, early testing seems to show that alpha has increased with the level increase, saw it on bg a while back, i'll have to dig it back up.

Banalaty wrote:

Long story short, that part seems normal but doesnt have the standard flooring written in for no reason. Its the 2x(Agi-MobAgi) thats a little more like a magic formula replacing int with agi i guess (kinda a wierd version of Fstr). Not as familiar with magic stuffs.


and this is the 2nd, I've never seen any testing that trueflight was a true delta-agi(agi vs mob agi) and not a modified delta-int(agi vs mob int). previous magical ws used the basic nuke formula of delta-int(int vs mob int), but trueflight was tested early on to show player int had NO effect, people seemed to jump from that to "if it uses player agi, must use mob agi too" and that isn't a given. mobs by and large have MUCH lower mage stats(int mnd chr) than melee defense stats(agi vit) especially the bat from your op, given that most single bats are mainjob warrior
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#12Aryden, Posted: Aug 09 2010 at 12:07 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Technically it is light dmg and COULD follow banish/holy in using target's MND instead of INT. (speculation).
#13 Aug 09 2010 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
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#14 Aug 18 2010 at 11:14 PM Rating: Decent
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bwahahhaaha, damn I tried to skate that one by... YOU just had to call me on it huh...

But I did say we TRY, we just dont always succeed...

Edited, Aug 19th 2010 1:15am by Aryden
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#15 Aug 22 2010 at 12:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Finally unlocked Trueflight and began testing. I have a long way to go, and will post full details once I have more complete results. This is quite preliminary, and I haven't made a lot of progress since I'm starting by attempting to verify what we think we already know.

sscearcev wrote:
I've never seen any testing that trueflight was a true delta-agi(agi vs mob agi) and not a modified delta-int(agi vs mob int). previous magical ws used the basic nuke formula of delta-int(int vs mob int), but trueflight was tested early on to show player int had NO effect, people seemed to jump from that to "if it uses player agi, must use mob agi too" and that isn't a given.


Rate up for being dead right with this. I started out as RNG80/BLM40 so I could specifically test this. Raising my AGI increased damage. Raising my INT had no effect. Lowering mob's AGI had no effect. Lowering mob's INT increased damage. This suggests an AGI vs INT comparison, and rules out an AGI vs AGI comparison. I also confirmed that increasing my MAB increases damage, and trilling dagger bonus of ~10% does apply. Also, piercing damage bonus does NOT apply.

More to come after further testing.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2010 2:09am by VxSote
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#16 Aug 22 2010 at 11:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Aryden wrote:

Technically it is light dmg and COULD follow banish/holy in using target's MND instead of INT. (speculation).

Only way we could really test it is going PVP and testing various stats as defense bonuses. Rng vs Rdm since Rdm can stack MDB, MND, INT etc.


Couldn't you test it by lowering a mobs AGI/MND/etc? Casting Frost for example?
#17 Aug 23 2010 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
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you can, however testing vs a player allows for you to see actual stats, resists etc. Makes for more accurate calculations.
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#18 Aug 23 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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josephpate wrote:
Couldn't you test it by lowering a mobs AGI/MND/etc? Casting Frost for example?

You can, and indeed I have. I've seen no damage change from lowering the mob's MND STR VIT AGI or DEX. For any of those to be factors, their effect would have to be very small or somehow capped.
Aryden wrote:
you can, however testing vs a player allows for you to see actual stats, resists etc. Makes for more accurate calculations.

And since it is the mob's INT that appears to be the dominant factor, I can easily test using my BLM to determine the exact value of most mob's INT. Only those that have unknown MDB or TMDA values are difficult to determine, and those aren't suitable targets for testing trueflight anyhow.

I've also found that raising my AGI by a given amount increases damage more than lowering the mob's INT by the same amount. This is consistent with the suggested equation in that player AGI is treated as an additional modifier beyond a simple AGI-INT comparison.

Additional things I've confirmed: lightsday gives a chance to proc a 10% bonus. Trueflight can be resisted to varying degrees. Trueflight works to give amber lights in abyssea. All of these were expected results.

Work continues...



Edited, Aug 23rd 2010 12:41pm by VxSote
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#19 Aug 26 2010 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
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/praise! Great stuffs! I miss the days of college when I had time to do tests like these >_< But thank you for getting the ball rolling.
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#20 Sep 05 2010 at 5:45 AM Rating: Decent
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The base "D" value for magic WS is usually your current level +2, that is where the (75 +2) part came from. At level 80 it wouldn't be 77 it would be 82 as base D. Generic magic WS formula is,

Damage = (( Lv+2+WSC ) * fTP + fINT ) * Resist * Elemental Staves * Weather * MDIF * Magic Damage Adjustment

With WSC being the WS mod * level alpha. At 80 the level alpha seems to be .85, its raised from .83.

fINT is usually delta-INT but recent WS's have been using different values. True Flight seems to use AGI instead of INT for fINT. Blue magic damage spells frequently use different stats for this value.

fTP we already know about

Resist / Elemental staves (trilling dagger fits here I think) / weather all are standard.

MDIF is a function of MAB vs MDB, I believe MAB / MDB but please correct me if I'm wrong.


And Magic Damage Adjustment is just Magic Damage Cut, things like shell or some monsters family reduction in magic damage (Ahrmen) or even bonus in magic damage (Puddings).
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#21 Sep 05 2010 at 5:52 AM Rating: Decent
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I just got done checking the formula on Wiki, it seriously needs to be removed. Its the standard magic WS formula that use's the players AGI instead of INT vs the targets INT. Primal Rend works the same way but use's CHR.

TF seems to be pretty good if your fighting something non-piercing resistant using the Holy bolt (and therefor apollo's staff) method. With HQ stave, some Marksmenship skill+ pieces and maybe a few M.acc you shouldn't see many resists. The base D of the weapons and ammo being used have absolutely nothing to do with the WS damage. SS would do more damage to any normal target obviously, but this might be a pretty solid WS vs something like bones / undead or large / high defense things.
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Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the @#%^ out of the way instead...
#22 Sep 05 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
TF seems to be pretty good if your fighting something non-piercing resistant using the Holy bolt (and therefor apollo's staff) method. With HQ stave, some Marksmenship skill+ pieces and maybe a few M.acc you shouldn't see many resists. The base D of the weapons and ammo being used have absolutely nothing to do with the WS damage. SS would do more damage to any normal target obviously, but this might be a pretty solid WS vs something like bones / undead or large / high defense things.

Unfortunately, high defense mobs also tend to resist magic WS.

The best case scenario I can present for TF is Temenos elemental run. Against those mobs, which take reduced physical damage (albeit less of a reduction than normal elementals), in a zone with double Light weather (with Korin Obi, of course), while wielding an Apollo's Staff, while eating sushi (so no RATK from food), and while using Machine Crossbow... TF and Slug were right about equal. That should tell you all you need to know about TF as a general-damage WS.

I use TF for exactly two purposes:

1) skillchains
2) physical-immune mobs
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#23 Sep 05 2010 at 10:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Well I was trying to be kind to TF and imagine a scenario it would work out in. Elemental WS usually suck though
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#24 Sep 21 2010 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
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Well i finally got around to a few tests to figure this out. The formula is pretty much junk. Lv 0 mobs in ronfuare returned the same damage for my WS. I tried with/without apollos, gorget, moldy earring and some agi gear.

Is there any info around about what the new alpha is for lv 81+? Supposedly it went up from .83 to .85 at lv 80. Is there any change 81-85? (my rng currently lv 82 doing these tests).

Anyway, each was done exactly with 100 TP (perfect 6hit with obow/holy and/or meditate) on lv 0 mobs in Wron. I repeated each set at least twice to make sure i was getting identical numbers which i did.

No Apollo's:
723: 0MAB, no gorget, 138 agi
748: 5MAB, no gorget, 138 agi
762: 0MAB, no gorget, 152 agi
754: 0MAB, Yes gorget, 144 agi
779: 5MAB, no gorget, 144 agi
770: 5MAB, Yes gorget, 138 agi

Yes Apollo's:
839: 0MAB, no gorget, 140 agi
869: 5MAB, no gorget, 140 agi
880: 0MAB, no gorget, 154 agi
885: 0MAB, Yes gorget, 146 agi
899: 5MAB, no gorget, 146 agi
895: 5MAB, Yes gorget, 140 agi

Apollos agi are 2 higher because of apollos obviously.

The formula is WAAAY off if you include the "fint cap of 24" (like down in the 500s instead of 7-800s abserved above) described in the calculating magic WS section (also converting the fint into your agi instead). However, the numbers are in the same general ballpark if you just remove the 24 cap and let your agi vs mob stat go uncapped. Plugging in an estimated .85 or even tried .87 alpha and mob stats of ~6-7 (lv 0 mobs) brought them 'close' as in within 11(smallest) to 27(max) off of the observed numbers.

No where near accurate yet, but any help figuring this out will help. I was mostly testing the effect of gorgets and MAB in slightly different builds for this above as i was mildy impressed while leveling it doing 799s @100tp in my agi build with 154 agi (left moldy at home) against IT efts. I might do some more later with larger swings in agi just to make sure we have the modifier accurate at 30% agi or not and narrow down the base formula more.

I should probably get rng from 82 to 85 1st though and find out what the new alpha is 1st though. If anyone can help with any of that, much appreciated.

Edited, Sep 21st 2010 7:52pm by Banalaty
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#25 Sep 22 2010 at 7:54 AM Rating: Good
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The best case scenario I can present for TF is Temenos elemental run.


Best case scenario for TF is building amber lights on a Abyssea gold chest run for AF3 feet pieces. Move into 2010 RVW.
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#26 Jan 21 2011 at 2:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Question: Why is it that Trueflight sucks but Wildfire is apparently good? If Wildfire can pop off 5-6k WS then shouldn't Trueflight be able to do around 2-3k with the same gear and atmas?
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
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#27 Jan 21 2011 at 9:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Higher fTP and higher mods on Wildfire, plus those huge numbers you see are most likely from CORs in abyssea so add on Wizard's roll, atma, ascetic drinks. I haven't tried trueflight since Visions came out and I had no atmas, except recently used it on Rani, was doing ~1300 or so to her I think compared to other people's low slug shots (300s IIRC). I imagine with the right buffs you can hit some high Trueflights.

Edited, Jan 21st 2011 10:24pm by NotJim
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#28 Jan 22 2011 at 12:30 AM Rating: Decent
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NotJim wrote:
except recently used it on Rani, was doing ~1300 or so to her I think compared to other people's low slug shots (300s IIRC)


What was your gear/atmas?

Quote:
plus those huge numbers you see are most likely from CORs in abyssea so add on Wizard's roll, atma, ascetic drinks


It's pretty repulsive that COR/BLM with a Bedlam or Amageddon can out RNG actual RNGs by a huge margin.
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#29 Jan 23 2011 at 4:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Apollos/ --- /obow/ ---
AF+1/Carect Choker/Novio/Moldy
Osode/Seiryu's/Snow ring/ Snow
Forban cape/Crudelis/Denali/Sylvan NQ

Used Beyond, Ultimate and Sea Daughter atmas. Not perfect gear but mainly stuff I have lying around, and a borrowed Apollos.

If you compare a COR with empyrean gun to a RNG with empyrean bow, I'm sure the RNG will out RNG the COR.
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Jimothy
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#30 Jan 23 2011 at 7:43 PM Rating: Default
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NotJim wrote:


If you compare a COR with empyrean gun to a RNG with empyrean bow, I'm sure the RNG will out RNG the COR pull hate on his first Jishnu's and die immediately.


ftfy.


Jishnu's doesn't have any enmity reduction like Wildfire does. Being able to WS for OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAND damage doesn't do you any good when it gets you instantly killed.



Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 9:46pm by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#31 Jan 23 2011 at 8:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Suck it up and sponge MP like a man!
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Jimothy
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#32 Jan 27 2011 at 9:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Lobivopis wrote:
If Wildfire can pop off 5-6k WS then shouldn't Trueflight be able to do around 2-3k with the same gear and atmas?
It does. On normal mobs and most normal NMs my Trueflight does around 2.8-3.1k.
I use Beyond, Ultimate and Baying Moon. Have Kirin and Holy Mountain too but haven't been out to parse which does most damage yet.

Gear:
Apollo's, Pax, Gun, Bullet
Denali, Ugga, Moldy, Volley
MaB/QD Mirke, Skote, Breeze x2
Forban, Aquiline, Denali, AF3+1

Thinking about swapping 3rd atma for scorpion queen for 4hit however anyway so which is better out of BM/Kirin/HM isn't so big a deal.

Edit: Korin Obi over Aquiline on lightsday/weather.

Edited, Jan 27th 2011 3:11pm by Noodles
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ArsDraconis wrote:
Ultima spends 10 whole seconds shouting "I'MA FIRIN MAH LAZER" like a 2004 valkurm melee waiting for SC
#33 Jan 28 2011 at 12:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Does magic accuracy affect magic WS at all?
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#34 Jan 28 2011 at 8:34 AM Rating: Decent
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I would think so, but idk for sure. Inside abyssea TF acc isn't a big deal with ultimate as it has superior macc alongside it's superior mab
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ArsDraconis wrote:
Ultima spends 10 whole seconds shouting "I'MA FIRIN MAH LAZER" like a 2004 valkurm melee waiting for SC
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