Magian GunFollow

Out of interest, what, if any, weapons should I aim for, bearing in mind my RNG uses either NQ or HQ hellfire depending on if my friend is using his, or Sbow.

Doesn't answer my question on if a Magian weapon beats Sbow for archery or NQ/HQ hellfire for marks

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 9:47pm by MagingMartin

Yeah, I'd just taken a look at that bow just now, having to fight 100 EP+ crawlers on RNG will suck though...

I'll try to drag a friend along.

Magnatus (Gun) can have Dmg: 46, Delay 600. Probably not much different from a Hellfire.

However... Presumably these weapons will be further upgradeable when the level cap is raised. Hellfire? Maybe not so much.

The Magian guns aren't even that great for COR.

The Magnatus is a great QD gun. 46 dmg will outdo corsair's +1 quite handily and may actually upstage death penalty.

But what COR wants an occ fires twice gun when you are using steel bullets at 200 gil a shot?
And the 4 STR 12 Att gun still doesn't beat a martial gun for accuracy on slug or power on detonator. And COR's need all the accuracy they can get on slug.
Personally an Occ attacks twice dagger with a good damage rating would have been the best option for COR. Most of us melee for TP due to speed of multihit weapons and availability of haste gear. Shooting for TP is a rare thing and the effort of getting multihit guns won't be worth it. You could gain 10 Joytoys in the time it will take to complete one multihit weapon through the Magian quests.

For RNG, I'm just going to do the Bow with 4 STR and 12 RATT since it shold be an upgrade over SBow with the higher damage rating, 2 extra STR and only sl less RATT at New Moon. Won't be as accurate but I'm not hurting for RACC anymore on RNG.

QFT


Level you skills, make your bullets, sell your excess. Stop Whining.

Edited, Mar 25th 2010 3:05pm by Aryden

Screw it give COR culverin and cannon shells and we just /delete RNG completely!

allright!

It seems to me you've completely missed the point of this gun, IF the occasional attacks twice procs on WS.

1) COR still melees for TP.
2) COR fires slugshot.
3) Slugshot now may hit for twice as much damage.

With all this debate about paying to play, the preceding seems to have been lost. You AREN'T shooting for TP, you ARE shooting for WS. The gun MAY have a good chance of doubling your Slugshot damage for COR, and the costs for TP aren't changed.

Isn't time to stop arguing costs, (which are MUCH lower once a COR can melee for TP) and actually look in to how this occasionally fires twice works?

This forum may be dead; this is primarily due to the fact that not much has changed about the job. Before this recent update, our best weapons have been the same as they have been for years. Our best gear hasn't changed. By in large RNG tactics have seen little change.

RNG job isn't dead, it's just the same as ever. Situationally one of the best physical DDs (kited mobs), or just another DD in other situations. RNG hasn't been THE best DD in years, but it's still far from dead.

I say this because I AM playing the same game as you. But it is quite possible that we don't fight the same mobs, because if you did then you'd realize RNG still has it's place.

Back on topic,

Just how comparable are HF+1 and Magnatus? I assume that the Dmg39 Dragonmaw is better DoT assuming a Joytoy DA rate despite the costs?

OK, my math and what not will probably be wrong but here goes. I'm using 1000 base ranged attacks. using: http://ffxi.killvoid.com/page.php?al=dcalc

Assuming:
Greater Colibri (Level 81: Defense 322, Evasion 334, VIT 67, AGI 67)

Rng: Str 90, agi 100, Ratt 482 (500 w/ HF +1)

see here: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=7&mid=1269442027193428674&page=1&howmany=50#m1269890868192294929

Edited, Mar 29th 2010 3:32pm by Aryden

see here: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=7&mid=1269442027193428674&page=1&howmany=50#m1269890868192294929

Edited, Mar 29th 2010 3:31pm by Aryden

Dragonmaw is the best ranged TP gun COR can use, assuming a 45% DA rate, and Magnatus is the best QD-only gun available if you by chance don't have over 100m.

I don't think either will trump Martial during melee TP, unless they get a further boost in the future.. I can't imagine the DA will proc on Slug or Det; that would be the only possibility atm.

Hellfire +1 has RACC+7 and RATT+17 and can take a RATT+10 evolith though.

Ok, I've tried for 2 days to figure you out doa, what exactly is the issue here? do you not think the magian guns are strong enough? there are numbers saying its comparable to possibly better than HF+1 the current best non-relic.

are you upset cor is on it? you didn't really think they'd put in 2 guns and a bow?, hell I'm surprised there was both a gun and a bow usable by rangers, I would not have put them past just doing a bow for rng and making the gun cor only.

and this:

is just completely confusing, how can we be "out RNG'd" by a job with less skill AND weaker ammo using a weapon we can use to?

Not to mention most cors won't even bother with the "occ. attacks twice" guns if testing finds out it works just like joy-toy i.e. doesn't double attack on WS. cors by and large don't shoot for tp, a double attacking gun is, in terms of finances and quite often efficiency, a poor choice.

so could you please enlighten me as to your issue with the magian trials for marksmanship, you seem awfully upset and I just can't figure out the reason.

19 points of skill and 11 less dmg?? That's a small difference but how close does the addition of Hunter's + Chaos roll close this gap??



So we have this advantage until June, then all we have is what Snapshot and Rapid Shot merits??



My issue is they just gave COR a gun that's better than anything we've had for years besides anni.

I believe they are really blurring the line between COR & RNG and this just pushes even further.



No that's not the issue.



Exactly

I don't know if it's just me but they could have solved it by giving them the ultimate QD gun or something, not a ranged weapon that's better than anything we've held for the past 7 years. Yes I have been holding my [Deadonarrival] Hellfire +1 for ~5+ of those.



Yes, why? They added ~20 weapon possibilities for each weapon as it is, how hard would have it been to make a RNG branch and a COR branch.

Honestly I was expecting to see Bow, Xbow, Gun but I was wrong.



They gave us A- in Marksmanship & A- in Archery it's been that way for years.

Bow has bandwagon for RNG for a long time and it's laughable. Unless these RNG have been rocking Ebow + Kab they've been getting out damaged by Obow/DST rng forever.



This is exactly what I hoped would have happened, but SE let me down again. =(

That's why I'm off in Inner Horotu camping PLM mobs. :\



Really? They have an option of WS -> RA -> RA -> WS assuming they have 45% proc and it's not double damage, who wouldn't want a 3-4 hit build??

cors by and large don't shoot for tp, a double attacking gun is, in terms of finances and quite often efficiency, a poor choice. 

LOL economics??? Don't play the job if your too poor and don't know how to make money in this game. You know the cost of the jobs before playing them, this is one of the worst excuses in FF.

Yes I understand mellee'ing for TP is superior and that I can support this but not cost. I've pissed away more millions in gil on ammo then people have even seen in their FF careers.




Please don't take it as a personal attack but yes I am pissed off greatly.

I've been around since 03 before they nerfed RNG initially, I've taken all the ups and downs. I've stuck with this job at the worst and this is the kind of sh*t they do to make it right?? No not at all they just killed my will to play RNG when a COR can do it the same and buff the rest of the group.

If COR could wear kclub I would sell all my RNG gear and just finish my COR.


/rant off, sorry guys but hey atleast it's something to new to read about it in this dead RNG forum.

DOA, put rather bluntly, COR's /ra sucks and they are no threat to RNG at all.

Even a 99COR/RNG with Velocity Shot will likely have 10% less Snapshot, 30-40 less skill, 3 less Accuracy Up traits, and 1-3 less hits on Barrage. This is before considering stuff like gear differences (e.g. silver bullets, osode, hachiryu) and, most importantly, RNG's subjob; if COR is subbing RNG then they will most certainly NOT have a "4-hit build" or anything of the sort.

Citing Hunter's+Chaos when comparing COR to RNG is just as pointless as citing double March when comparing BRD to THF; in the same party, COR would get scraped.

its even more wrong than that, a corsair can NOT hit the same acc numbers as a ranger without being in a party with a ranger

19 skill is 17 acc, last 2 traits are 26 acc, a 46 acc hole. they need a hunter's roll 11(+50) just to make up that part, and that's assuming they're subbing ranger, if not they need to make up a 65 acc hole, that takes a ranger in party 11(+65).

you can't say they'll make up some of that acc in gear, there is a grand total of ONE armor/accessory that cor can equip that ranger can not that gives racc, aileron mantle, excluding of course relic/af/af+1.

what does this massive racc penalty mean... it means to be effective at all, they have to sacrifice damage stats in a manner that ranger does not.

I full timed osode for years as many rangers do, do you see competent cor's full timing blue cotehardrie or some similar pure damage no acc piece? I sub sam, use a fire staff, and eat att food on HNMs, most cors wouldn't try that combo in merits, let alone something actually difficult to hit. That is, and really always has been, rangers top benefit.

actually that seems about right if you think about it, dps calcs generally don't give O-bow credit for the 2 things that are the key to making it special, acid and holy bolts. If you take out those things o-bow is really just an average weapon:

o-bow+darksteel
104 dmg, 624 delay ratt+18

v-bow+kabura
109 dmg, 580 delay str+3 agi+3 ratt+23 racc+5

-5 dmg, +44 delay -3str -3agi -5ratt -5racc

yep seems like it would be a poor endgame weapon. its saving grace is "type: xbow", which means on non-hnm it's not ratt+18 but rather something like ratt+60 while still having high enough base damage to make the ws non-laughable(which is what kill other crossbows even though in terms of pure dps while tping they are better than o-bow)

you can argue all you want, i used this http://killingifrit.com/page.php?al=dcalc as the calculator to derive the Hi/low ratt dmg. Yes str/agi/ratt/ mob defense/mob vit etc were taken into account. This is the reality of the situation. Using the stats: Str 90, Agi 100, Ratt 482, (Greater Colibri stats Level 81: Defense 322, Evasion 334, VIT 67, AGI 67 ). Sorry if this is disconcerting to you, but just taking what the weapon says on it and deriving dmg without even looking at a mob doesnt work. Thats like testing an 8 year old and a 30 year old's IQ and saying the 30 Year old with a juris doctorate, 2 masters degrees and half a mil in the bank is inferior because his IQ is lower. I didnt modify the numbers to suit me, i simply plugged in base stats, gathered the info and posted it. When i actually plugged in my personal stats, it represented exactly my experience with HF +1, V.bow and O.bow.

This is dead on. Some in this thread are using arrow/bolt/bullet delay to add to the amount of time it takes to shoot. It doesn't.

Also, you can't just pull DPS ratings off wiki without adjusting them for the two constant downtimes in a rangers delay: the free period and the length of time it takes to put away your weapon. This is the 2.85 you see in RVW's above calculation. This amount of time is the same on every weapon.


I'm guessing the '.75' reflects full snapshot merits and gear? Those DPS numbers also dont take into account racc/ratt/str/agi on the weapons, but they should be very very close.




Having said all that, its pretty clear that a gun with 3 less base damage that attacks twice will blow HF out of the water if its a 45% proc unless you are krakening and it cant proc on ws.


Edited, Mar 30th 2010 1:37pm by BarberofSeville

Edited, Mar 30th 2010 1:38pm by BarberofSeville

Yes, thank you, we knew that. It's taken into account in the dps calculations.




It may be inaccurate, but i have plugged in my own stats, and the numbers were too close to call the equation inaccurate. +/- 1~2 dmg here and there.

Plug in your own stats and tell how bad the variance is please so i can adjust for it.

Then you did it wrong.

Judging strictly on DMG/delay, O-bow beats HF+1. This has been well-established for a long time. If you add STR/RATK/AGI (and continue to ignore accuracy) then O-bow has RATK+18 and HF+1 has RATK+17, so O-bow's lead should stay the same or increase. Yet in your calculation, HF+1 somehow passes O-bow when RATK is included?

Do explain.

edit: So yeah, it looks like the numbers were messed up. But still, do you see the problem with saying that your "experiences are represented exactly" by a calculation that was including Snapshot+70%? How could your experiences have ever been anything remotely like that?

Edited, Mar 30th 2010 11:10am by redvenomweb

No i was referring to the dmg numbers from the calculator itself not the number represented by the calculations posted. They ( calculator's numbers) were very close, but not "dead on".






Unfortunately you cannot just rely on the dmg and delay for calculating dps with any weapon in this game. You entirely neglect any bonuses that weapon may have over another and therefor neglect the reason to actually use 1 weapon over another weapon. If we went strictly by this method, the Hirenjaku +1 out dps's everything except Fudo, yosh*tmitsu and kikoku. SO why not use a Hirenjaku +1? The Hagun would get destroyed by any Gktn with higher dmg and or str. I understand the flaws in my math, but you have to understand the flaw in the dps calculation youre using.

Edited, Mar 30th 2010 3:06pm by Aryden

Regardless, it appears that HF/Ebos/Obow arguments are a thing of the past. Dragonmaw looks to destroy them all no matter which chart is looked at. Are they seriously going to turn this thing into a 'hits 1-4x' gun? For starters the gap between DD and mage will get even bigger. And furthermore, the thought of Wsing in 1 shot.....I dunno, it seems too much.

That build is not even remotely close to "common." Excluding Rajas (which is ultra-common), I am the only RNG I've ever seen "in person" with even 3 of the other 4 items. Do you even have all four of them yourself? According to your equip history on FFXIAH, you don't have any of those four items.

And speaking of FFXIAH, I could only find one person on FFXIAH (Tedman/Ramuh) with skadi legs + mekki + rose... and he owns an Annihilator, so I don't think he really counts for your argument. Meanwhile, FFXIAH shows over 20 RNGs with Hachiryu pants equipped at the time of this post.


You don't need to calculate other slots, for race, etc. because those are not necessary components. If you just use the standard base TP gain (i.e. default x-hit build) then you don't need to include any other slots at all, because anything that a bow RNG can equip, a gun RNG can equip (and vice versa).

But if you are going to presume a 5-hit build for all weapons, then you necessarily need to include the slots (and subjob) required to attain that build, and to keep the playing field level, you should fill in those slots for the weapons that don't need STP there.

Edited, Mar 30th 2010 3:14pm by redvenomweb