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Merc Kris for TP?Follow

#1 Nov 20 2009 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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I figured I would start my own topic because I am on tech support with U-Verse.

Anyways, I got bored and saved up for a Merc Kris to melee for TP when I get Corsair up to level. I am curious is the Kris with fully dagger merits is worth the melee on RNG? I have a decent(not super fantastic) haste set also. Something like 12-13% haste. Just curious.
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#2 Nov 20 2009 at 2:32 PM Rating: Decent
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You'd be on perma sushi and gain half the TP of a k club... I have an M Kris myself for COR, I'll go try and ***** around with it on RNG.

From the gear I have, right now it would look like my melee TP set would be

Turban
PCC
Osode (=/ Bum me 15m and it could be skadi)
Dusk hands
Rajas/Sniper's +1
Swift Belt
Haidate
Skadi Feet

Just from first glances and impressions, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this isn't gonna work well.
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#3 Nov 20 2009 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I was curious, I use it mostly for Campaign and /dnc solo breaking gun. Thanks for the info.

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Edited, Nov 20th 2009 3:47pm by Saneporro
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79 THF / 75 RNG / 60 WAR / 76 BST / 41 NIN /
41 WHM / 36 BLM / 37 SAM / 54 DNC / 30 DRG /
24 BLU / 33 COR / 24 PLD / 21 MNK / 23 RDM /
24 DRK / 12 SMN / 18 SCH / 33 PUP / 24 BRD /
100+3 Alchemy / 60 Woodworking / 55 Goldsmithing / 54 Smithing / Cooking 60
Merits: (All solo)
8 Dagger
1 Marksmanship
2 Evasion
1 Triple Attack
1 Aura Steal

Sufferingcattle: 88+2 Cloth
#4 Nov 20 2009 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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RNG most certainly does not need sushi for M.Kris. RNG has 22 more accuracy with dagger than a THF main.
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#5 Nov 20 2009 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
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According to FFXI calculator, my accuracy would only be 72.6% on a level 82 337 evasion mob without food. You need 407 to cap accuracy on birds, and with that set up I would have roughly 360.2.

I'd guesstimate you would need at least 80%+ to make it a worthwhile endeavor over /ra with a decent amount of snapshot (capped merits, ACP body). I would need to come up another 20ish accuracy (body being the big one), but I don't know where to draw the line between accuracy and haste for RNG.

Meaning I would most likely need sushi in order to keep my TP build going, but that would sacrifice my WS damage a fair bit.

With amazing gear I could see it being worthwhile. But with amazing gear, might as well buy a k club.

Edit: Added note that COR is on perma sushi as well with M Kris, which in my case only nets me an average ~85% accuracy on bird parses.

Edited, Nov 20th 2009 5:18pm by Weakness
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#6 Nov 20 2009 at 6:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, it's true that virtually every melee can benefit from sushi if they are trying to cap accuracy and maintain max haste. All that I meant was that MK RNG is no more married to sushi than any other melee.
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#7 Nov 20 2009 at 7:21 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
TP Per Hit: 5.2%


What sub are we talking about using here as well? /sam, /war or /nin?


With E.bow + /sam 17% tp gain per shot so youre going to have to hit atleast 3 hits per ranged attack cycle, which shouldnt be that hard when the 3rd attack procs. Fully hasted gear and magical, i see it boosting tp gain slightly, however, overall youre going to be missing out on regular ratt dmg, and in a bird situation, we're talking 400ish dmg per hit, NOT to mention to gain max haste youre going to need 2 x march, which means youre not going to have 2 x minuet (usually). The mkris would have gain some very very serious tp > ranged attacks to compensate for the damage loss of ratt's.

Also, in the accuracy issue, account for hunter's roll, you shouldnt have to even look at sushi then.

Edited, Nov 20th 2009 8:26pm by Aryden
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#8 Nov 20 2009 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Well for what its worth, if your in a situation where your not getting minuets (90%+ of all merits PT's) then it might be viable. A single BRD isn't going to have time to stop and sing special songs for a lone RNG, their busy with pulling and doing 3~4 buffs already. Also if your meleeing then the mage should be hasting you, that is a very large chunk of haste for TP gain.

W.Turban
PCC
Hollow + Diablos for your ears (can RNG use assault or fowling?)
P.Body is +10 Acc (also +R.Acc if you happen to need it)
Dusk hands
Rajas + Snipers(+1) / Toreadors (which ever you have)
Cuch.Mantle / A.Mantle (whichever you have)
Swift
Kitty Pants
Dusk Feet

Gear Haste is 19%
Spell is 15%
Song is 20%
For a total of 54%, 100/46 = 2.173 (217% increase in swing speed).

RNG has 200 Club skill and 240 Dagger skill. +48 Acc in JT
Assuming dagger merits (if you have them from THF or DNC)
250 acc from skill + 48 from JT = 298 (dagger)
214 acc from skill + 48 from JT = 262 (club)

Basically if its possible for K.club then its possible for M.Kris. As for actual TP gain vs a RNG/SAM Archery. I don't really know how that would boil down. But one of the side benefits is that you don't need to worry about pulling the monster away from the melee's, or holding TP to "finish it off". Hmm if you could get ahold of enough cannon shells... try that setup just for ******
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#9 Nov 21 2009 at 3:47 AM Rating: Decent
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I have experimented with this in merits once. My setup is:

MK/ /Hellfire+1/Silver bullets
Turban /Love torque/Diablos' /minuet
Avalon /Dusk gloves/Toreador's/Toreador's
Cuchulain's/Swift belt /Byakko's /Enkidu's

I plan on doing more testing with it, it didn't perform too badly (a little higher than a well geared GK SAM). Will include some numbers once I test it more.
#10 Nov 21 2009 at 12:08 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Well for what its worth, if your in a situation where your not getting minuets (90%+ of all merits PT's) then it might be viable. A single BRD isn't going to have time to stop and sing special songs for a lone RNG, their busy with pulling and doing 3~4 buffs already. Also if your meleeing then the mage should be hasting you, that is a very large chunk of haste for TP gain.


again, i have not ever had an issue with getting 2x minuet in a meripo as rng, and other DD's dont complain about it either. We've already had the long drawn out discussion about brds in meripos with Rng's.

Even without minuet, i'm still doing 300 +/- 20 per hit on a bird, the Mkris is going to have to hit a **** of alot to compensate for that.
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#11 Nov 21 2009 at 11:05 PM Rating: Good
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A single BRD is doing the following,
March x 2
Ballad II, possibly Ballad I
Pulling / Sleeping monster.

If in a good PT they don't have time for a Ballad I on the mage, how exactly are they going to have time for special songs for a RNG? If its a group of RNG's in a arrowburn setup, then I can see them doing Min instead of March. Or if you have two BRD's one the backline one is doing your Min x 2 songs. But a single BRD isn't buffing the RNG with special songs, there simply isn't enough time available.

For the damage part, I really don't know how that would pan out. Obviously /RA should do more damage then meleeing with a D8 weapon. But /RA does more damage then meleeing with a K.Club too, and you don't see people arguing against that. The point the poster was asking about is if the additional TP generation of a hasted M.Kris and thus the additional WS's produced would make up for the loss of /RA damage. To that I really don't know.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#12 Nov 22 2009 at 12:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
But /RA does more damage then meleeing with a K.Club too, and you don't see people arguing against that.


What are you trying to say?

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#13 Nov 22 2009 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
For the damage part, I really don't know how that would pan out. Obviously /RA should do more damage then meleeing with a D8 weapon. But /RA does more damage then meleeing with a K.Club too, and you don't see people arguing against that. The point the poster was asking about is if the additional TP generation of a hasted M.Kris and thus the additional WS's produced would make up for the loss of /RA damage. To that I really don't know.


Wait... what?

If you're arguing against k club, you're just an idiot. Otherwise I have no idea what the **** you're babbling about.

I stick with my initial statement, you gain half the TP of a k club and give up just as much to make a proper melee build. So, still gambling on not worth it.
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#14 Nov 22 2009 at 11:19 AM Rating: Decent
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When I owned a Mkris, my /RA build put up better DoT.
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#15 Nov 22 2009 at 2:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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The question is not whether M.Kris will deal more melee damage than ranged attacks. It obviously will not.

We know for a fact that KC will definitely deal more net damage than /ra RNG, by a wide margin (even though KC itself deals less melee damage than ranged attacks). So the question is whether or not M.Kris will deliver enough net damage to beat /ra RNG. Will it match KC RNG? Of course not. But there's a huge gap in between KC RNG and /ra RNG, and if M.Kris falls anywhere in that huge gap, it's worth considering.

One thing to keep in mind is that there's a very good chance that you won't have any minuets at all (unless you have 2 BRDs or multiple RNGs), which definitely affects the comparison. A M.Kris loss with no Marches could easily turn into a win with 2 Marches and no Minuets.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2009 12:18pm by redvenomweb
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#16 Nov 25 2009 at 1:27 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
For the damage part, I really don't know how that would pan out. Obviously /RA should do more damage then meleeing with a D8 weapon. But /RA does more damage then meleeing with a K.Club too, and you don't see people arguing against that. The point the poster was asking about is if the additional TP generation of a hasted M.Kris and thus the additional WS's produced would make up for the loss of /RA damage. To that I really don't know.
----------------------------


here's your answers

Quote:
The question is not whether M.Kris will deal more melee damage than ranged attacks. It obviously will not.

We know for a fact that KC will definitely deal more net damage than /ra RNG, by a wide margin (even though KC itself deals less melee damage than ranged attacks). So the question is whether or not M.Kris will deliver enough net damage to beat /ra RNG. Will it match KC RNG? Of course not. But there's a huge gap in between KC RNG and /ra RNG, and if M.Kris falls anywhere in that huge gap, it's worth considering.

One thing to keep in mind is that there's a very good chance that you won't have any minuets at all (unless you have 2 BRDs or multiple RNGs), which definitely affects the comparison. A M.Kris loss with no Marches could easily turn into a win with 2 Marches and no Minuets.



Exactly the point, is using an mkris and losing out on the damage from your /ra for an increase in ws's beat out a standard 5 hit /ra build. I just highly doubt it. With a K.club we're talking up to 8 hits, with an average of 4 i believe thats massive tp gain as opposed to the kris, they arent even in the same ballpark there.


I say we get 2 ****-naked mithran rangers out in bhaflau, give one an mkris and the other a mekki, have them use HF +1's and let them parse at each other for an hour.



Edited, Nov 25th 2009 2:30pm by Aryden
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#17 Nov 25 2009 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
A single BRD is doing the following,
March x 2
Ballad II, possibly Ballad I
Pulling / Sleeping monster.

If in a good PT they don't have time for a Ballad I on the mage, how exactly are they going to have time for special songs for a RNG? If its a group of RNG's in a arrowburn setup, then I can see them doing Min instead of March. Or if you have two BRD's one the backline one is doing your Min x 2 songs. But a single BRD isn't buffing the RNG with special songs, there simply isn't enough time available.



And again, we've already had this debate. That thinking is not conducive to good pt play. If you have a mixed group of DD's, with high ws dmg output, cranking it up with minuet is a good idea, and yes march does as well, but march will not benefit ALL of your dd's, so the logical choice is to use what best for the entire party, even if its minuet + march. Regardless, Rng isnt one of those jobs that absolutely has to have abcxyz songs/rolls/buffs to do what we do, so when we get them, its great, if we dont get them, well it just gives everyone else a chance to catch up.
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#18 Nov 25 2009 at 1:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aryden wrote:
And again, we've already had this debate. That thinking is not conducive to good pt play. If you have a mixed group of DD's, with high ws dmg output, cranking it up with minuet is a good idea, and yes march does as well, but march will not benefit ALL of your dd's, so the logical choice is to use what best for the entire party, even if its minuet + march.

The more logical choice would be to replace the RNG with another melee DD.

RNG and melee DD do not mix very well without 2 support jobs.
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#19 Nov 25 2009 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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It's been a long while since I meripo'd, but isn't 2 support jobs still "optimal"? Did they change something I completely missed?
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#20 Nov 26 2009 at 8:57 AM Rating: Good
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So basically, the answer I have is yes it could be viable, but it couldn't?

As for sub-job, I would probably be using /nin due to pulling hate with ws. The only merit I really see to using the M. Kris based off of the discussion is the lack of pulling hate from too many shots or ws. Which has been a constant problem whenever I do actually party.

Granted I have not been in a party since camo got the buff (although I doubt it is that much of a change).

But regardless, thank you all for your answers, I figure I will hold on to my M.Kris if for anything, just to have. I don't really need much leet gear since I have decent AH gear for all my jobs I play (soro onry for the most part). But once again, thank you all for your answers.
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79 THF / 75 RNG / 60 WAR / 76 BST / 41 NIN /
41 WHM / 36 BLM / 37 SAM / 54 DNC / 30 DRG /
24 BLU / 33 COR / 24 PLD / 21 MNK / 23 RDM /
24 DRK / 12 SMN / 18 SCH / 33 PUP / 24 BRD /
100+3 Alchemy / 60 Woodworking / 55 Goldsmithing / 54 Smithing / Cooking 60
Merits: (All solo)
8 Dagger
1 Marksmanship
2 Evasion
1 Triple Attack
1 Aura Steal

Sufferingcattle: 88+2 Cloth
#21 Nov 27 2009 at 12:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Deadonarrival wrote:
It's been a long while since I meripo'd, but isn't 2 support jobs still "optimal"? Did they change something I completely missed?

RVW's statement implied there should be at least 2 support in order to get (/ra) RNG working in merit party.

I myself tend to see 3.5 support job is the optimal one (at least, before I stopped playing on late Feb).
#22 Nov 27 2009 at 5:41 AM Rating: Decent
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I see BRD, (a good)COR, & (5/5Haste Samba) DNC as optimal with 2 pimp DD's.
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#23 Dec 01 2009 at 5:39 PM Rating: Decent
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BRD RDM COR and a DNC focusing on voking/DD/haste samba, not healing.
#24 Dec 02 2009 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Just reminding some posters that Minuets do virtually nothing for Sams "beefy" WS. Gekko doubles the atk value for their WS making minuets overkill for more than half of their total damage. Also, almost any good DD with war in the main or sub MIGHT get full use out of 1 min with zerk up 60% of the time depending on gear and use of Dia/box step on mobs. Sam/war really has almost no need for minuets except for melee damage when zerk is down. Considering ~60% of their damage is WS and they have zerk for 60% of the time.....their melee portion when zerk is down is .....16% of their total damage. Not worth a Minuet.

If you really want your minuets in a 1brd party, you could probably convince some Drg/sam, Thf/Nins, Mnk/nin or other 1handed jobs do go for march/min and more specifically a combo without war or /war in it for zerk. The second min isnt nearly strong enough to warrent its use over march for any DDs that know what haste gear is just to help out a lone rng in a party.

Multiple support jobs, go for it, but double min for single brd is really a terrible choice for any well-equiped melee. The second min (and sometimes 1st min) is either useless at worst or vastly overpowered by march at best.



Edited, Dec 2nd 2009 12:29pm by Banalaty
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#25 Dec 02 2009 at 1:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok so not far off from what I've been doing. I will say that I was ignorant and completely missed haste samba's advantage.

Hunters/March/Minuet/W/E

In that order is what I prefer my buffs.
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#26 Dec 02 2009 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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If you are talking about merit parties, there's a good chance that you're fighting birds, in which case Minuet is always relevant (no sane SAM would use GKT on birds).
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