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STR vs. RAtk vs. AGI for the end-game RNG: Some answersFollow

#102 May 23 2008 at 1:37 PM Rating: Default
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In actual practice, RACC+7/RATK+7 is better than STR+4.


Because broad generalizations are fact. >.>
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#103 May 23 2008 at 3:45 PM Rating: Decent
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PadishonSylph wrote:
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In actual practice, RACC+7/RATK+7 is better than STR+4.

Because broad generalizations are fact. >.>

Hey, if you can give me a situation where it isn't, I'm happy to discuss it. But unless your goal is to be wearing exactly 0 RACC, Franny for Woody is one of the worst tradeoffs you can make.

Furthermore, if your goal really is to have 0 RACC, Kriegs+Woody loses to Vulcan+Axe Grip anyway.

Edited, May 23rd 2008 4:46pm by redvenomweb
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#104 Jun 06 2008 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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nvm








Edited, Feb 16th 2009 9:16am by DragoonAnfield
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#105 Jun 09 2008 at 10:32 AM Rating: Default
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Sorry if this has been asked but im on my cell phone and couldn't check all the posts.
How much of an impact is vulcans staff+ axe grip + the 5 str from hasso?
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#106 Jun 09 2008 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Sorry if this has been asked but im on my cell phone and couldn't check all the posts.
How much of an impact is vulcans staff+ axe grip + the 5 str from hasso?


Don't have actually numbers for you, but vulcan by itself was highest dmg weapon, and all you're doing is adding 8 more str to that, so it'll be even stronger.
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#107 Jun 18 2008 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Bah crap... Edit to remove crap. I see the original post was over a year ago.

Edited, Jun 18th 2008 12:22pm by Whatsinaname
#108 Aug 23 2008 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd like to see some more data about the buccaneer's belt if possible here... I'm very very close to getting mine.
#109 Aug 25 2008 at 7:13 AM Rating: Decent
I would like to see the new Zeni +10 str Pants added, the salvage gear, bucaneers belt, and Endiku's mittens.

also it would be nice to see an analysis of how the calculated dmg is effected if you have all the top Bow gear equiped. and yes my goal is 0 Racc. when meriting because the difference of 68%(out of 300 shots)(+ 15 str + 10 Ratt) Racc and 74%(out of 300 shots)(+34 racc + 15 agi) racc in on merit party is only a few shots.
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#110 Nov 26 2008 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
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This is a bumo because this should be a sticky and recent threads could have been answered with this one
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#111 Jul 10 2009 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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Bumping this because it answers a lot of questions that get asked frequently (like ones I just asked lol)
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#112 Jul 12 2009 at 12:04 PM Rating: Default
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I'm running some numbers myself. To the people who have experience fighting Kirin: Would it be fair to say that Kirin has a defense of ~900 Vit~90 and lv~90?

Edited, Jul 12th 2009 4:05pm by taishokukanoki
#113 Jul 13 2009 at 12:39 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm running some numbers myself. To the people who have experience fighting Kirin: Would it be fair to say that Kirin has a defense of ~900 Vit~90 and lv~90?

Studio gobli data:
Kirin VIT 120 def 431, Lv92
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#114 Aug 08 2009 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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This is a great post, even though it's getting outdated it's still great.
#115 Oct 17 2009 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Scout's Belt/RKB+2(/Mithra RSE)


Would Buccaneer's Belt be better or equal to Scout's Belt? I just want to get one of the two (seriously run out of space). Which wins?
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#116 Oct 18 2009 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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icebabyisme wrote:
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Scout's Belt/RKB+2(/Mithra RSE)


Would Buccaneer's Belt be better or equal to Scout's Belt? I just want to get one of the two (seriously run out of space). Which wins?

About the same.
On low ratk, Scout's wins by a bit.
On high ratk, Buccaneer's wins by a bit.
#117 Oct 18 2009 at 9:44 PM Rating: Decent
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VZX wrote:

Quote:
About the same.
On low ratk, Scout's wins by a bit.
On high ratk, Buccaneer's wins by a bit.


Yeah, kinda look close to me. Thanks.
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#118 Oct 21 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Necro bump here.

Can we get the Mirke and Anwig added in here with various augments so that we can try to see how comparable they are to things like Archer's Jupon/Wyvern helm etc?
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#119 Oct 29 2009 at 5:56 PM Rating: Decent
Potential necrobump, is VZX's excel spreadsheet still avaliable? Or outdated?
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#120 Oct 31 2009 at 5:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Unless they changed something since last February, no.
Still available on my site.
#121 Oct 31 2009 at 5:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Aryden wrote:
Can we get the Mirke and Anwig added in here with various augments so that we can try to see how comparable they are to things like Archer's Jupon/Wyvern helm etc?


Mirke is to Osode as Breeze Gorget is to Justice Torque. Assuming Mirke has RACC/RATT +10 then Osode is slightly ahead for damage but Mirke wins by a mile for RACC.

Anwig with STR+4 WSACC+15 / RACC+10 RATT+5 is higher DMG than any other option except Maat's Cap for both normal shots and WS. But Anwig has ridiculously higher RACC on WS.

Was it really worth necroing for something this bloody obvious?



Edited, Oct 31st 2009 8:38am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#122 Nov 01 2009 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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actually yes, because those arent the augments i have on my mirke and anwig. in addition to the fact aht they are relevant and should be set in the list with ACTUAL number rather than analogies.
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#123 May 09 2010 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Altdorf's + Wilhelm's earring set vs 2x triumph

how much better/worse are one over the other?
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#124 May 09 2010 at 9:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Altdorf's + Wilhelm's earring set vs 2x triumph

how much better/worse are one over the other?


Going to depend on whether you are using marksmanship or archery and what other gear you have. Most certainly W/A set has RACC over Triumphs and but Triumphs has damage over W/A set. I always generally use a 3 AGI to 1 STR for damage rough estimate when looking at gear for marksmanship. So with that in mind 4 STR > 8 AGI, 1 RATT. But given the added RACC to it, I consider it a side grade. Unfortunately in the world of the internet and mathematics, there is no such thing as side grades, there always has to be a superior option for all situations and the die-hards will argue it tooth and nail even if it means absolutely no practical difference in outcomes.
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#125 May 11 2010 at 3:06 AM Rating: Decent
4 str 15 wsacc 10 racc 5rattk anwig is mentioned earlier but where does that stand vs 4 str 4 agi 15 ws acc +2% ws dmg if acc isnt an issue? and if the later is better where does it stand vs maats? trying to decide which anwig is better for rng or if i should just build it for another job XD also i think scout feet > +3 str +2 agi hume RSE but was just making sure i didnt read the replies wrong. thanks in advance!

Edited, May 11th 2010 5:11am by BiggHowie
#126 May 12 2010 at 11:15 PM Rating: Decent
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BiggHowie wrote:
4 str 15 wsacc 10 racc 5rattk anwig is mentioned earlier but where does that stand vs 4 str 4 agi 15 ws acc +2% ws dmg if acc isnt an issue? and if the later is better where does it stand vs maats? trying to decide which anwig is better for rng or if i should just build it for another job XD also i think scout feet > +3 str +2 agi hume RSE but was just making sure i didnt read the replies wrong. thanks in advance!

Edited, May 11th 2010 5:11am by BiggHowie

So in the end you're looking at 5 rattk vs 2% WS damage.
Here's a good simplified look: the ratk graph is pretty linear that the % increase in ratk is proportional to % increase in damage. 5 ratk give roughly 2% increase when you have 250 ratk. Once you have more than 250 ratk, the increase is less than 2%.

Now you can answer which is better.
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#127 May 15 2010 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So in the end you're looking at 5 rattk vs 2% WS damage.
Here's a good simplified look: the ratk graph is pretty linear that the % increase in ratk is proportional to % increase in damage. 5 ratk give roughly 2% increase when you have 250 ratk. Once you have more than 250 ratk, the increase is less than 2%.

Now you can answer which is better.




Yes, however the ratt applies to normal hits and ws dmg, not just 2% ws dmg, so when taken into account and overall better piece, if you're using it for TP as well, which then becomes better? +5ratt does. WS only, then Yes 2% dmg.


Quote:
4 str 15 wsacc 10 racc 5rattk anwig is mentioned earlier but where does that stand vs 4 str 4 agi 15 ws acc +2% ws dmg if acc isnt an issue?


I dont gear for racc, but i always see racc as an issue, and the reason being, -40 racc at 100% tp on slugwinder. If youre capped on racc and you still miss a rabbit on east ron...(it happens).

Edited, May 15th 2010 2:36pm by Aryden
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#128 May 15 2010 at 1:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Virdent from my LS got me thinking by asking me if Enkidu's mittens were better than CFG's for SW, so i pulled VZX's spreadsheet down again and crunched some numbers:



Using my personal base of:

121 str
285 Archery
+71 ratt (w/o CFG's)
V.bow + PPA
Pot-au-feu +1
Minuet III/IV
Hasso
Dia II

SW base 1677 - 1727


Adding CFG's gives:

SW Dmg: 1709 - 1757

Replacing with Enkidu's

SW Dmg: 1692 - 1742


Sticking with CFG's here seems to be the idea.


After talking about it more, we looked at the +5 str gain in dmg on Justice torque vs QQ collar, Elemental torques, Hope and Faith. So i decided to run the math on the new Ire Torque +1


Base stats w/o QQ collar

121 str
285 Archery
+73 ratt
V.bow +PPA
Pot-au-feu +1
Minuet III/IV
Hasso
Dia II

Base SW: 1682 - 1732


With QQ collar: 1709 - 1757

With Justice Torque: 1703 - 1752

With Ire Torque: 1703 - 1752

With Ire Torque +1: 1705 - 1755



Now i'm not a math genius, and I would LOVE it if someone went back and checked these numbers for me on the spreadsheet.


Osode VS Mirke wardecors (Ratt +10, Snapshot +5)


Base SW: 1617 - 1664

Osode: 1709 - 1757

Mirke: 1676 - 1721



Scout's Vs Buccaneer's belt

Base: 1683 - 1731

Scout's: 1715 - 1762

Buccaneer's: 1709 - 1757


Please please please please check the numbers for me.




Edited, May 15th 2010 3:57pm by Aryden
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#129 May 17 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Aryden wrote:
Quote:
So in the end you're looking at 5 rattk vs 2% WS damage.
Here's a good simplified look: the ratk graph is pretty linear that the % increase in ratk is proportional to % increase in damage. 5 ratk give roughly 2% increase when you have 250 ratk. Once you have more than 250 ratk, the increase is less than 2%.

Now you can answer which is better.




Yes, however the ratt applies to normal hits and ws dmg, not just 2% ws dmg, so when taken into account and overall better piece, if you're using it for TP as well, which then becomes better? +5ratt does. WS only, then Yes 2% dmg.

Uhhh... you can't use a single piece for every situation. One size doesn't fit all.
Using 2% WS damage piece during TPing is stupid, even more stupid when you compare it to another equip that obviously do something.
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#130 May 17 2010 at 1:30 PM Rating: Default
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Using 2% WS damage piece during TPing is stupid


Arguably using anything other than AF2 hat for TP is stupid. Why? You maximize your character's gear so you can kill stuff faster. But as a RNG that comes at a price in expendables. Ammo acquisition is time. Whether you craft it, buy it, campaign for it, or whatever, it takes time. If you save on ammo output, you save yourself time. I'd think it would be more time than you saved by TP'ing in a better hat. And since time spent fight stuff is usually more entertaining than time spent reaquiring Ammo, even if it didn't save you more time, it saved you more entertainment.

Funny how you can rationalize anything if you try hard enough.

Now I'll just throw on my flame retardant AF gear and wait for people to tell me I'm assinine for thinking like this.
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#131 May 17 2010 at 6:19 PM Rating: Default
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Uhhh... you can't use a single piece for every situation. One size doesn't fit all.
Using 2% WS damage piece during TPing is stupid, even more stupid when you compare it to another equip that obviously do something.


No whats stupid is trying to take into account more situations than necessary. You have 2 modes, Tp and WS, if you build it solely for ws, then yes +2% dmg is what you go with, however, if you build it to tp in, yet still augment it for wsing then youre better off with +5 ratt. Yes there are better head pieces for tping, AF+1 head, Barbut, etc. That doesnt change the fact that we're talking about 1 piece of gear, not 3.



Quote:
Arguably using anything other than AF2 hat for TP is stupid. Why? You maximize your character's gear so you can kill stuff faster. But as a RNG that comes at a price in expendables. Ammo acquisition is time. Whether you craft it, buy it, campaign for it, or whatever, it takes time. If you save on ammo output, you save yourself time. I'd think it would be more time than you saved by TP'ing in a better hat. And since time spent fight stuff is usually more entertaining than time spent reaquiring Ammo, even if it didn't save you more time, it saved you more entertainment.


Hysterical, how about 5/5 recycle merits and a frugal cape...



Edited, May 17th 2010 8:21pm by Aryden
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#132 May 18 2010 at 7:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Hysterical, how about 5/5 recycle merits and a frugal cape...


There you go. Someone else thinkig like me ;)
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#133 May 18 2010 at 12:58 PM Rating: Default
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not quite, i was being sarcastic.
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#134 May 18 2010 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
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Another post about Dart and being poor, /sigh. Yes Dart we know you're cheap, but it's not conducive to max #'s so no one really cares for your opinion.

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#135 May 18 2010 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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not quite, i was being sarcastic.


And I was being facetious, so we were both in the same mind frame.


Quote:
Another post about Dart and being poor, /sigh. Yes Dart we know you're cheap, but it's not conducive to max #'s so no one really cares for your opinion.


Actually I'm not poor. I'm frugal. Big difference there. And I was just in a ****-disturbing mood at the moment I made that post. I'm well aware of the general sentiment amongst RNG's on Alla. If you can't get yourself killed in the first few seconds of a fight, you're doing it wrong.

Edited, May 18th 2010 4:21pm by Dartagnann
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#136 May 18 2010 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Thats what Seigan + Third eye is for...
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#137 May 18 2010 at 10:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Thats what Seigan + Third eye is for...


Not subbing WAR?
Gimp


;)
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#138 May 19 2010 at 1:42 AM Rating: Decent
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2 extra slugwinders > zerk + defensive capacity
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#139 May 19 2010 at 11:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
2 extra slugwinders > zerk + defensive capacity


Despite being facetious again, I'll bite on this. Where does the two extra slugwinders come from? Admittedly a player can get to 100tp before a fight without meditate. I imagine over time, with store TP trait a RNG/SAM will get in more slugwinders than a RNG/WAR. So is that 2 slugwinders per 5 min (recast timer on berzerk)? If so i guess it really depends on waht mobs you are fighting and how much zerk affects your Slugwinder and regular shot damage.

But admittedly i haven't gone RNG/WAR to anything in ages as I prefer not to die. And since I can pretty much get myself killed (with Seigan/3rd eye) at will in any fight I attend on RNG/SAM, not sure having more death potential as /WAR helps anyone but the people with BNS.

Bottomline: you have to gear for not only the fight, but your fellow aliance mates as well. If you are so overgeared you can't keep the mob from constantly turning away from the other less geared DD's, you aren't doing anyone any favors. It's always best to keep hate fairly well distributed in any alliance battle. Keeps healers happy, rangers and black mages alive and mobs in one place.

Yes, there are ultimate damage dealing setups for RNG. I'm just finding the closer I get to having all this great end game gear, the more likely I am to be the first death in any linkshell event, unless I consciously hold back to avoid hate (which then defeats the purpose of getting all this gear).

It's a funny game and I am constantly impressed by posters willingness to get their knickers twisted about these minor stat differences when real game experience would indicate that there is too much randomness in the system for it to ever be of consequence.

tl;dr AF2 hat rules.
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#140 May 19 2010 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Bottomline: you have to gear for not only the fight, but your fellow aliance mates as well. If you are so overgeared you can't keep the mob from constantly turning away from the other less geared DD's, you aren't doing anyone any favors. It's always best to keep hate fairly well distributed in any alliance battle. Keeps healers happy, rangers and black mages alive and mobs in one place.
While I am a big believer in a dead RNG does no (more) damage, keep in mind some fights hate is never a concern. RNG/WAR works great in CS Stun zerg fights.

When you barely have time to get off Slug > Barrage > Slug > TP Wing > Slug > EES, before a mob is dead (they've often died before I fire EES) then mediatate and Store TP haven't come in to play. So the difference between WAR and SAM in these fights are +5 STR from Hasso, and +25% R Att from zerk. Since the mob is being CS stunned, you have no worries of pulling hate and dying.
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#141 May 19 2010 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent
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you're all absolutely correct, and Dart, thats the most concise, well thought out thing i think i've seen you post.

What i look at are things like, Sarameya, or kiring where we will do 2-3 or 4 per go. Rng/war after the first fight will just be standing there looking happy with himself, while i'm meditating up for a lead in slugwinder. Now, you could say, put some sams in there for shikk, and youre right, but whats the point in taking their tp when i can generate my own. I'll give example, Sarameya takes us roughly 40ish secs to take down, but i still manage to slugwinder > barrage >> slugwinder >> med > ratt >>slugwinder (assuming i dont whiff barrage). Truth be told, it's not always 100% sometimes other dd's get lucky and i dont get that last slugwinder off. But i still stay at the top of the parse regardless. So what would then be the point of /war with zerk? I agree, if i am going to do something where i am only going to get 1 maybe 2 good shots off, then /war can can be great, right till i faceplant.

Edited, May 19th 2010 6:18pm by Aryden
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#142 May 19 2010 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Aryden wrote:
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Uhhh... you can't use a single piece for every situation. One size doesn't fit all.
Using 2% WS damage piece during TPing is stupid, even more stupid when you compare it to another equip that obviously do something.


No whats stupid is trying to take into account more situations than necessary. You have 2 modes, Tp and WS, if you build it solely for ws, then yes +2% dmg is what you go with, however, if you build it to tp in, yet still augment it for wsing then youre better off with +5 ratt. Yes there are better head pieces for tping, AF+1 head, Barbut, etc. That doesnt change the fact that we're talking about 1 piece of gear, not 3.

Your point being?
Did you even read where does my post come from?
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#143 May 20 2010 at 6:20 AM Rating: Decent
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So the difference between WAR and SAM in these fights are +5 STR from Hasso, and +25% R Att from zerk.

I'd just like to point real quick that the STR difference is in fact a bit smaller (3 or less) between /SAM with hasso and /WAR. /WAR gives more natural STR then /SAM. Also, there's a small constant boost to R.Att from /WAR's trait.

Doesn't change you conclusion tho, but I wanted to point it anyway.
#144 May 20 2010 at 8:20 AM Rating: Decent
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While I am a big believer in a dead RNG does no (more) damage, keep in mind some fights hate is never a concern. RNG/WAR works great in CS Stun zerg fights.


True. Which is why I said you have to gear for the fights and that includes picking the right sub. If you aren't CS stunning a mob during a zerg, then you abolutely want to stay alive as long as possible. If you are CS stunning you absolutely want the mob dead or near death in one minute (or more if you use serial CS stunners).

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Rng/war after the first fight will just be standing there looking happy with himself, while i'm meditating up for a lead in slugwinder.


Umm. Sleep potions and opo-opo necklace work fine as does an Icarus wing. Granted meditate is free TP and you know how much i love free stuff. But still, no excuse for any DD not to have TP before any fight.

Still I'm with Aryden for the RNG/SAM love. I find its more versatile than RNG/WAR (purely offensive) or RNG/NIN (purely defensive). So if you are going to be doing a wide variety of fights in an evening it gets my vote as a good all round choice. If your life is: "Sit around for 5 hours until an HNM claim shows up and do one fight then log", then I suppose RNG/WAR is fine if it fits with the kill style of your LS.

And AF2 hat still rulz
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Mirabelle
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#145 May 20 2010 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd just like to point real quick that the STR difference is in fact a bit smaller (3 or less) between /SAM with hasso and /WAR. /WAR gives more natural STR then /SAM. Also, there's a small constant boost to R.Att from /WAR's trait.

Doesn't change you conclusion tho, but I wanted to point it anyway.




base str difference between /war and /sam as a hume rng is 1 str in favor of war, which mean /sam with hasso gains +4 str. However, /war does give you the +10 attack bonus as a trait.

I calculated it out the other night, with the buffs i normally get for HNM stuff + /war, i can cap 999 ratt, which for a whole **** of alot of things, gives me that 3.0 pdif, but if i'm using berserk and doing an event like that, i'm going to be, and this is from experience, dead almost immediately. Capping your pdif on stuff that really matters, can and will be a death sentence for you if you arent holding back a **** of alot.
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#146 May 22 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Do people just purposefully ignore the entirity of what I say for fun? I said
Quote:
RNG/WAR works great in CS Stun zerg fights.
Got it? Good.

I didn't advocate /WAR in everything, just those rare events where hate isn't an issue. I said I AGREE that dead RNGs do no (more) damage, hence why I mentioned /WAR for those SPECIFIC instances where you won't be attacked. Guess what that means for every other event that's not a CS Stun zerg. I'm NOT going RNG/WAR there.

Seiously, why the **** do people make arguements based on situations not being advocated in the first place?
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RNG:75 MNK:75 WHM:75 BRD:75 BST:75 SAM:75 WAR:75 THF:75 BLM:75
DRG:72 SMN:63 DRK:55 NIN:49 PLD:42 RDM:41 DNC:37 SCH:37 BLU:37 COR:20 PUP:22
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#147 May 22 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
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no one is arguing against you, it's just an observation for those others that are reading the thread about using /war. Has nothing to do with your comment.
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Sir CorLeonisX: "Nah, SE will just declare it an exploit to fight him with jobs over 75 since it's not the "proper" way to kill it, and just ban us all instead."

Deadonarrival: "Dart as usual, your post is made of FAIL."
#148 May 23 2010 at 7:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Do people just purposefully ignore the entirity of what I say for fun? I said


None of us ignored your comments. We just added to your comments. I didn't see any arguments either way, just some additional thoughts on the matter.
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Mirabelle
Race: Mithra
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75COR/75RDM/75RNG/45THF/37BLM/38WHM/37NIN/37DRK/41BLU/37DNC/37SAM/37WAR/37SCH
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