STR vs. RAtk vs. AGI for the end-game RNG: Some answersFollow

OK, this is going to be a long post. I spent a few hours playing spreadsheet jockey today with VZX's wonderful damage calculation spreadsheet. So first off a lot of credit goes to him.

We've had a lot of threads about the tradeoff between STR, RAtk, and AGI for endgame rangers, and how to best maximize WS (read: slugwinder) damage. There's been alot of anecdotal things thrown around, and a lot of formulas tossed around too, sometimes correctly, sometimes incorrectly. So I decided to actually play around with VZX's spreadsheet and try and figure out the following:

For an endgame ranger, vs. XP mobs, what is the marginal benefit of adding 1 point of STR, RAtk, and AGI?

To lead with my conclusion - which is highly generalized:
On sidewinders, 1 STR gets you the equivalent of 2.25 RAtk gets you the equivalent of 4 AGI.
On slug shots, 1 STR gets you the equivalent of 2.25 RAtk gets you the equivalent of 2.7 AGI.

For testing purposes, I used my gear setup, which is as follows:

Ranged: Ebow + PPA and Obow + GMB
Weapons: Kriegs + Franny
Head: Wyvern
Neck: RNG necklace
Ears: Genin + Minuet
Body: AF1
Hands: S Kote
Rings: Ruby x2
Back: Amemit +1
Waist: RK Belt +2 (assumed not in controlled region, I'm from Bastok lol)
Legs: Jaridah Salvars
Feet: War Boots

I also assumed the following (again, based on my setup): 2 merits for Obow and 1 for Ebow; Coeurl Sub as food; Acid bolt in effect for Obow but not for Ebow; /NIN so obviously no berserk or attack bonus.

For mob stats, I used VZX's default stats: level 81 mob, 74 VIT, 344 Def. I have no idea how reasonable this is, though the damage output seemed about right. Clearly, though, my tests don't apply to HNM type mobs.

Finally, I did the test two ways. (1) assume no other buffs/debuffs. (2) assume Dia II and Minuet III + IV in effect. Sort of the "crap party" and the "good party" test. From now on I'll label (1) = Low (damage) and (2) = High (damage).

First off, my base WS damage was as follows:
Sidewinder, Low - 895
Sidewinder, High - 1343
Slug Shot, Low - 942
Slug Shot, High - 1420

Interesting to note that Obow > Ebow here; take away acid bolt def down, though, and the Obow damage goes to 797 Low and 1192 High - witness the power of Acid bolts.

Next, I started bumping up the three variables separately, 1 point at a time, and recorded the incremental damage for each set up. Then I averaged the incremental damage over the course of each point, up to 20. Here's what I got (note that these are AVERAGES - see disclaimer below):

Sidewinder, Low - 1 STR = 4.8 D; 1 RAtk = 2.4 D; 1 AGI = 1.1 D
Sidewinder, High - 1 STR = 6.7 D; 1 RAtk = 2.7 D; 1 AGI = 1.8 D
Slug Shot, Low - 1 STR = 4.7 D; 1 RAtk = 2.4 D; 1 AGI = 1.8 D
Slug Shot, High - 1 STR = 6.6 D; 1 RAtk = 2.7 D; 1 AGI = 2.5 D

Some things to note:
(1) STR >> RAtk >> AGI on sidewinders, while RAtk and AGI are a bit more balanced on slug shots.
(2) Base stats (STR & AGI) increase in importance to RAtk the higher the base damage of the WS is. So, 1 STR ~ 2 RAtk on the Low WS and ~ 2.5 RAtk on the High WS. I'd say on HNMs, where average WS damage is far lower, RAtk becomes much more important relative to base stats than on XP type mobs.
(3) Benefits from RAtk are fairly steady - the minimum increment from 1 RAtk was 2 D, and the maximum was 4 D, across all tests. Benefits from base stats are more lumpy. On STR, the minimum increment was 1 D, while the maximum increment was 18 D. More commonly, small D increments of 2-3 D and large D increments of 9-11 D alternated every +1 STR. For AGI, the increment is 0 D on 4/5 +1s for sidewinder and 3/4 for slug shot, and then a large increment of between 6 D to 11 D depending on which test I ran. The "chunky" behavior of STR/AGI benefits to WS D is due to the nature of the WS formula, which rounds fractions down rather than retaining them.

With these figures in hand, I compared various gear pieces to see which ones should damage the best (assuming ranged accuracy isn't a problem, which of course is a consideration). I took the damage increase based on that gear's stats as a percent of base damage, averaged across the High and Low scenarios. SW = sidewinder and SS = slug shot. Remember these are averages; in general the RAtk gear will gain relatively in low damage WS situations while the STR/AGI gear will gain relatively in the high damage WS situations.

Weapons - 1H
Kriegsbiel - 2.52% SW, 2.68% SS (so this increases SW D by an average of 2.52% and SS D by 2.68% - or about 25 D on a 1000 damage SW (before kriegs) and 27 D on a 1000 D slug shot)
Woodville's - 2.05% SW, 1.93% SS
Franny - 1.64% SW, 1.56% SS
Ifrit's Blade - 1.54% SW, 1.45% SS

Kriegsbiel 4tw here, clearly. Woodville's will outdamage Franny, especially for otherwise pimped out rangers. Ifrit's isn't a bad free alternative to the expensive axes, and actually outdamages Franny in the High case.

Weapons - 2H & DW
Kriegs/Woodville - 4.57% SW, 4.61% SS
Kriegs/Franny - 4.16% SW, 4.24% SS
Fire Staff - 4.40% SW, 4.16% SS
Vulcan's Staff - 4.91% SW, 4.63% SS

K/W is the best option due to rng acc benefit on SS, while Vulcan's wins on SW assuming you can make up the rng acc elsewhere. Otherwise, on average K/F outdamages Fire Staff slightly on SS, while Fire wins on SW. Still, if /NIN I think I'd go K/F over Fire on SW for the rng acc benefit. But Fire/Vulcan's is clearly the way to go if you are /SAM or /WAR vs. any of the individual 1H options.

Head
Wyvern's Helm. End of story.

Necklace
Qiqirn Collar - 1.88% SW, 1.78% SS
Spike Necklace/Chiv Chain - 1.54% SW, 1.45% SS
Jagd Gorget - 1.41% SW, 1.33% SS
RNG Necklace - 1.17% SW, 1.11% SS
Elemental Gorgets - 1.94% both
Hope Torque - 2.28% SW, 0.90% SS
Faith Torque - 1.56% SS only
Justice Torque - 2.56% SW, 2.41% SS

The question here is how much do you have to pay for Q Collar or J Gorget. I also note that Spike & Chiv Chain > RNG Neck on damage (and more so in High cases) though of course you lose the 5 rng acc. The elemental gorgets & Sea God torques are the best options, if you can manage to get your hands on them.

Earring
Triumph - 1.03% SW, 0.96% SS
Genin - 0.51% SW, 0.72% SS
+1 STR option - 0.51% SW, 0.48% SS
Drone - 0.39% SW, 0.54% SS
Fenrir's @ night - 2.35% SW, 2.22% SS

So Fenrir's @ night > all. After that, Triumph does the best - you gain about 5 D on a 1000 D slugwinder vs. Minuet/Cassie/etc. Genin is >= a +1 STR earring. Note on SS Drone is slightly better than +1 STR earrings as well.

Body
Kirin's Osode - 6.41% SW, 6.64% SS
Archer's Jupon - 4.91% SW, 4.63% SS
Blue Cotehardie +1 - 3.21% SW, 3.31% SS
Kyudogi +1 - 2.11% SW, 2.00% SS

OK. So on a 1000 damage SW with AF body, switching to Osode adds about 64 damage. If you are at 2000 damage with AF body, add about 128 damage (though in that High case it's more like 140 damage). Not shabby but not 200-300 as some have claimed. Archer's is not a bad substitute, once you get past the -10 rng acc lol. I threw in Blue Cot +1 to show how stupid the Kyudogi +1 piece is in comparison. It's just not worth very much.

Hands
S Kote - 1.93% SW, 2.71% SS
CFG - 2.35% SW, 2.22% SS
BFG - 2.58% SW, 2.45% SS

Basically here, the rule of thumb is S Kote for SS and CFG/BFG for SW. However at very High damage S Kote will begin to outdamage CFG on SW, and at very Low damage BFG will outdamage S Kote on SS.

Rings
The more STR the merrier. End of story.

Back
Amemit's +1 4tw. Gunner's Mantle can slightly outdamage in Low situations but do you really want the -10 rng acc? I didn't think so.

Waist
RSE +4 STR belt - 2.05% SW, 1.93% SS
RK +2 belt (home country no control) - 1.28% SW, 1.33% SS
RK +2 belt (home country control) - 2.69% SW, 2.66% SS
AF2 belt - 2.28% SW, 2.46% SS

RK+2 damages the best if the area is under your home country's control due to the RAtk +6 benefit (can't help in ToAU areas, sadly). The AF2 belt (if you can get it) is the next best alternative, followed by a +4 STR RSE belt.

Legs
Akinji Salvars - 0.94% SW, 0.89% SS
Jaridah Salvars - 0.70% SW, 0.67% SS
War Brais +1 - 0.64% SW, 0.90% SS
Galliard - 1.03% SW, 0.96% SS
Rep Cuisses (home country control) - 1.90% SW, 1.92% SS
P Seraweels - 1.54% SS, 1.45% SW

P Seraweels is the all around best piece in this slot. Republic Cuisses wins if you are fighting in nation controlled area. Otherwise get Galliard if you have a good LS or Akinji if you're rich. War Brais +1 actually does well on SS - something to note for you gun/xbow rangers.

Feet
AF2 - 2.35% SW, 2.22% SS
STR +3 feet - 1.54% SW, 1.45% SS
War Boots - 1.17% SW, 1.11% SS
War Boots +1 - 1.41% SW, 1.33% SS

There's lots of options for the STR + 3 feet, price em out vs. War Boots +1 and see which ones are a better buy. Otherwise regular old War Boots ain't bad, compared to the other buyable choices (AF2 . . . drool.)

So, that wraps it up. Again, please remember that these are averagish damage calculations against XP type mobs for level 75s. On HNMs RAtk will become more important. OTOH, if you are decked out against XP mobs, have a BRD, a debuffing RDM, etc., STR and AGI will deliver more marginal value.


Edited, Oct 27th 2006 at 7:30pm PDT by DeschainSiren: fixed AF2 belt, added some equipment

Edited, Oct 28th 2006 at 8:52am PDT by DeschainSiren

:D

this is one of the best quote ever. Of course it may change due to varying circumstances, but its a pretty good generalization I'd say.

some things were WTF to me, like STR belt > AF2 belt and spike > RNG neck, but you lose racc with the STR items, so I guess thats a fair tradeoff...

VZX wrote


I did play with different mob inputs a little, and while it did change the relationships slightly, it wasn't an enormous change, until you got to really big differences in the mob stats (like you'd see on HNMs).

What we really need is a database with mob stats in it . . . that would be great.

Rep Cuisses (in nation control) - 1.90% SW, 1.92% SS
P Seraweels - 1.54% SW, 1.45% SS

Can't believe I forgot about these. Better than the other options.

Hope Torque - 2.28% SW, 0.90% SS
Faith Torque - 1.56% SS only

Like I'll ever get these lol.

Rate Up, really alot of work put into this.



From my experiences this sounds reasonable. Personally I'm a taru obow ranger, and I do believe I get my maximum damage going markmenship due to AGI picking up my lack of STR. It would explain why I see almost no difference between CFG and Kote. I generally kept Kote full time for the actually RACC bonus from AGI (preupdate where we missed all the time).

One correction in your equipment list:

Head: Maat's Cap > Wyvern Helm+1.

Rate up for busting your ass on this lol.

Well if osode adds about 65 dmg on 1k slugs maats would do about 40 more dmg

Awesome post, I have messed around with the spreadsheet comparing a new piece of gear I was thinking of getting but was always too lazy to go into this kind of detail lol.

Nice work and effort. Also thanks again for the calculator.

I think this helps to support what myself and other rangers have found whether through trial and error or just intuitively. I've posted elsewhere but some things that I've found as far as gear choices for damage:

fenrir's > triumphs (night time)
scout's socks > 3 str feet (mithra rse etc)

Overall, the key to ranger gear seems to be finding that balance of accuracy and str/ratk/agi that allows you to eat the food of your choice.

On a related note, what factors are there in determining whether or not your SlugWinder will be High or Low? Is it just random?

so socks > rutters for SW (and obviously per-shot)? i guess i should keep them if i ever decide to level sam ;/

Name: Reality 
75RNG 75WAR 75BRD 
63MNK 61THF 60BST 
52DRK 37SAM 37NIN 
37WHM 
+++++ +++++ +++++

This is one misconception that I think should have been covered in a disclaimer in the original post.

Just because Hope Torque has more +damage potential than Breeze Gorget, that doesn't necessarily make it better. These comparisons do not (and cannot) account for accuracy. RKB+2 might have more raw damage potential than relic belt, but no one in their right mind would leave the relic belt in their MH.

I kinda thought the torque's would be possibly the best rng pieces next to af2 boots (i just got the af2+1 which are hawt). +skill is rare on rng, and since we already dont have A+ ratings....this is that much closer.

kind of like why at endgame brds go +wind instead of stacking +chr, same thing with +skill vs +int on blm.

Edited, Oct 27th 2006 at 5:54pm PDT by utfrodo

Thanks guys, lots of good feedback here. I edited the results to fix the AF2 Belt error (I forgot about the +5 AGI) and to add other pieces people suggested.

Rapierdwit said


Impact is only 0.5% on SS High, no impact on SW at all.

Lasthemy said


You trying to make me go blind? I stare at Excel 12 hours a day at work. XD

Raizins said


and Lasthemy said


Essentially I wanted to test the results at two fairly widely varying "base damage" points, to see how consistent the incremental benefits are. The Dia/Minuet on/off was an easy way to do that. You could also interpret it as being vs. high and low defense mobs (which varies PDif as well.)

Mwin said


Correct. That's why I tried to focus on the relative benefits of STR/AGI/RAtk for Archery/Marks individually rather than comparing the benefits across the two weapons. Given exactly the same Atk v Def, mob level, STR v VIT, etc. STR benefits archery more than marksmanship. But acid bolts are an intergral part of the obow setup so I felt it was important to include them.

On another note I've partied with another RNG exactly once since the nerf-patch.

Redvenomweb said


I think I covered this with



but yeah, I don't want to see any RNG out there with STR onry builds asking me why they can't hit anything. XD

For STR bulid I was thinking more like

Woodville's/Ifrits's
Wyvern Helm
Chivvy Chain
Triumph x2
Osode
Hands slot hmmm . . . maybe RSE hands
Flame Ring x2
Amemit +1
RSE Belt
P Seraweels
RSE2 Feet

That's a lot of STR! Uber Sidewinder! When you hit XD

fixed

why would osode perform higher for slugshot than sidewinder?

edit: just did the math, i guess that's right :| just seems so strange, but I guess it's because the AGI boost on osode, going from sidewinder to slugshot, is jumping .53% whereas the STR boost on osode, going in reverse (slugshot to sidewinder), is jumping only .30%

basically, AGI is a really bad gear choice for Sidewinder, STR is literally 4 times better if you can find STR in that same slot. also, it looks like seiryu's kote only translates to if i'm reading this correctly 8.4375 ranged attack (on sidewinder). but Kote on slugshot translates to 12.5 ranged attack, making it a better option than CFG/BFG right?


10 AGI on slugshot gives you 1.8% increase in damage, but only 1.275% increase on sidewinder. the difference in damage between these two numbers (1.8% vs 1.275%) is much larger than the difference that STR gives (4.825% up on Slug, 5.125% up on Side)

also, is it safe to say that on normal shots, 2 STR = 1 r.atk, but on weaponskills, its 1 STR = 2.25 r.atk? that would make archer's jupon the best TP piece (12.5 ranged attack), and Osode the best WS piece

Edited, Oct 28th 2006 at 12:22pm PDT by joesaiditstrue

Name: Reality 
75RNG 75WAR 75BRD 
63MNK 61THF 60BST 
52DRK 37SAM 37NIN 
37WHM 
+++++ +++++ +++++

You're confusing two different things.

On normal shots or WS, 2 STR gives 1 RATK. But for purposes of damage calculation, 2 STR is never equal to 1 RATK. Think about it; if 2 STR is equal to 1 RATK on normal shots, then 20 STR would be equal to 10 RATK. How could that be possible if 20 STR gives 10 RATK on it's own? You'd be completely ignoring fSTR2, which applies to both normal shots and WS.

Setting fSTR2 caps aside for the moment, STR's value on normal shots should be precisely equal to its value on Slug Shot. STR is only worth more on Sidewinder because of Sidewinder's STR WSC.

However, in the OP, this is a little misleading, because he's using O-bow (with acid effect) as the Slug weapon... so STR winds up making the same impact (relative to RATK) in both cases. If he were using a gun instead, the exchange rate of STR:RATK (currently listed as 1:2.25) would be weighted slightly more towards RATK (but still in STR's favor).

Put Dia III and it's gonna be obviously capped :P

I've added Dia III in my spreadsheet but feeling lazy to upload + fixing link

I know alot of work went into this but I wanted to see if anyone wanted
to do a little more work ^^
How about a breakdown of Racc to Damage by slot. In other words, how
about we compare where you can get the best bang for you buck by slot
while balancing +Racc gear. For instance, it the ring slot best used
for STR rings or are you better served using Behemoth rings and putting the STR gear in another slot? Many slots have Racc gear, some of almost no options.
Just at a glance, I'd say I'm not going to swap my Jagd for a civ chain because
I can get bang AND +racc in the same slot.

it isn't better. like i've said before, the spreadsheet is wrong. elemental gorgets give slightly higher dmg on sidewinder than hope torque does. i have both and have tested them both repeatedly. test for yourself if you don't believe me.

I think you answered your own question.

WTF with this "hidden effect"

Very nice post! I'd rate up...if i knew how heh

Anyway, I wear Vishnu's Vest (yes my friend made it and let me use it otherwise I would not be able to afford it) for TP gain (however if i am the only RNG that does wear a Vishnu's Vest then you not wanting to compare it would be understandable). Since all i really have is AF body and Shikaree Aketon (ha don't think I've ever actually worn cept for messing around and 50cap stuff)

Edited, Oct 31st 2006 at 3:48pm PST by OMGItsABear

same as kyudogi, the only differences between the two are defense, level to use, and +7 ranged accuracy. kyudogi has a few other non-offensive stats (+7 evasion, magic damage reduction, etc.)

Edited, Oct 31st 2006 at 11:16pm PST by joesaiditstrue

Name: Reality 
75RNG 75WAR 75BRD 
63MNK 61THF 60BST 
52DRK 37SAM 37NIN 
37WHM 
+++++ +++++ +++++

Guess my rng isnt as gimp as I thought. People always checked me and said I'm not but I always feel like it because no osode ; ;

can i get a stiiiiiiiiiiiiiiccccccccccckkkkkkkkkkkeeeeeeeeyyyyyy on this thread???