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STR vs. RAtk vs. AGI for the end-game RNG: Some answersFollow

#1 Oct 26 2006 at 8:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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OK, this is going to be a long post. I spent a few hours playing spreadsheet jockey today with VZX's wonderful damage calculation spreadsheet. So first off a lot of credit goes to him.

We've had a lot of threads about the tradeoff between STR, RAtk, and AGI for endgame rangers, and how to best maximize WS (read: slugwinder) damage. There's been alot of anecdotal things thrown around, and a lot of formulas tossed around too, sometimes correctly, sometimes incorrectly. So I decided to actually play around with VZX's spreadsheet and try and figure out the following:

For an endgame ranger, vs. XP mobs, what is the marginal benefit of adding 1 point of STR, RAtk, and AGI?

To lead with my conclusion - which is highly generalized:
On sidewinders, 1 STR gets you the equivalent of 2.25 RAtk gets you the equivalent of 4 AGI.
On slug shots, 1 STR gets you the equivalent of 2.25 RAtk gets you the equivalent of 2.7 AGI.

For testing purposes, I used my gear setup, which is as follows:

Ranged: Ebow + PPA and Obow + GMB
Weapons: Kriegs + Franny
Head: Wyvern
Neck: RNG necklace
Ears: Genin + Minuet
Body: AF1
Hands: S Kote
Rings: Ruby x2
Back: Amemit +1
Waist: RK Belt +2 (assumed not in controlled region, I'm from Bastok lol)
Legs: Jaridah Salvars
Feet: War Boots

I also assumed the following (again, based on my setup): 2 merits for Obow and 1 for Ebow; Coeurl Sub as food; Acid bolt in effect for Obow but not for Ebow; /NIN so obviously no berserk or attack bonus.

For mob stats, I used VZX's default stats: level 81 mob, 74 VIT, 344 Def. I have no idea how reasonable this is, though the damage output seemed about right. Clearly, though, my tests don't apply to HNM type mobs.

Finally, I did the test two ways. (1) assume no other buffs/debuffs. (2) assume Dia II and Minuet III + IV in effect. Sort of the "crap party" and the "good party" test. From now on I'll label (1) = Low (damage) and (2) = High (damage).

First off, my base WS damage was as follows:
Sidewinder, Low - 895
Sidewinder, High - 1343
Slug Shot, Low - 942
Slug Shot, High - 1420

Interesting to note that Obow > Ebow here; take away acid bolt def down, though, and the Obow damage goes to 797 Low and 1192 High - witness the power of Acid bolts.

Next, I started bumping up the three variables separately, 1 point at a time, and recorded the incremental damage for each set up. Then I averaged the incremental damage over the course of each point, up to 20. Here's what I got (note that these are AVERAGES - see disclaimer below):

Sidewinder, Low - 1 STR = 4.8 D; 1 RAtk = 2.4 D; 1 AGI = 1.1 D
Sidewinder, High - 1 STR = 6.7 D; 1 RAtk = 2.7 D; 1 AGI = 1.8 D
Slug Shot, Low - 1 STR = 4.7 D; 1 RAtk = 2.4 D; 1 AGI = 1.8 D
Slug Shot, High - 1 STR = 6.6 D; 1 RAtk = 2.7 D; 1 AGI = 2.5 D

Some things to note:
(1) STR >> RAtk >> AGI on sidewinders, while RAtk and AGI are a bit more balanced on slug shots.
(2) Base stats (STR & AGI) increase in importance to RAtk the higher the base damage of the WS is. So, 1 STR ~ 2 RAtk on the Low WS and ~ 2.5 RAtk on the High WS. I'd say on HNMs, where average WS damage is far lower, RAtk becomes much more important relative to base stats than on XP type mobs.
(3) Benefits from RAtk are fairly steady - the minimum increment from 1 RAtk was 2 D, and the maximum was 4 D, across all tests. Benefits from base stats are more lumpy. On STR, the minimum increment was 1 D, while the maximum increment was 18 D. More commonly, small D increments of 2-3 D and large D increments of 9-11 D alternated every +1 STR. For AGI, the increment is 0 D on 4/5 +1s for sidewinder and 3/4 for slug shot, and then a large increment of between 6 D to 11 D depending on which test I ran. The "chunky" behavior of STR/AGI benefits to WS D is due to the nature of the WS formula, which rounds fractions down rather than retaining them.

With these figures in hand, I compared various gear pieces to see which ones should damage the best (assuming ranged accuracy isn't a problem, which of course is a consideration). I took the damage increase based on that gear's stats as a percent of base damage, averaged across the High and Low scenarios. SW = sidewinder and SS = slug shot. Remember these are averages; in general the RAtk gear will gain relatively in low damage WS situations while the STR/AGI gear will gain relatively in the high damage WS situations.

Weapons - 1H
Kriegsbiel - 2.52% SW, 2.68% SS (so this increases SW D by an average of 2.52% and SS D by 2.68% - or about 25 D on a 1000 damage SW (before kriegs) and 27 D on a 1000 D slug shot)
Woodville's - 2.05% SW, 1.93% SS
Franny - 1.64% SW, 1.56% SS
Ifrit's Blade - 1.54% SW, 1.45% SS

Kriegsbiel 4tw here, clearly. Woodville's will outdamage Franny, especially for otherwise pimped out rangers. Ifrit's isn't a bad free alternative to the expensive axes, and actually outdamages Franny in the High case.

Weapons - 2H & DW
Kriegs/Woodville - 4.57% SW, 4.61% SS
Kriegs/Franny - 4.16% SW, 4.24% SS
Fire Staff - 4.40% SW, 4.16% SS
Vulcan's Staff - 4.91% SW, 4.63% SS

K/W is the best option due to rng acc benefit on SS, while Vulcan's wins on SW assuming you can make up the rng acc elsewhere. Otherwise, on average K/F outdamages Fire Staff slightly on SS, while Fire wins on SW. Still, if /NIN I think I'd go K/F over Fire on SW for the rng acc benefit. But Fire/Vulcan's is clearly the way to go if you are /SAM or /WAR vs. any of the individual 1H options.

Head
Wyvern's Helm. End of story.

Necklace
Qiqirn Collar - 1.88% SW, 1.78% SS
Spike Necklace/Chiv Chain - 1.54% SW, 1.45% SS
Jagd Gorget - 1.41% SW, 1.33% SS
RNG Necklace - 1.17% SW, 1.11% SS
Elemental Gorgets - 1.94% both
Hope Torque - 2.28% SW, 0.90% SS
Faith Torque - 1.56% SS only
Justice Torque - 2.56% SW, 2.41% SS

The question here is how much do you have to pay for Q Collar or J Gorget. I also note that Spike & Chiv Chain > RNG Neck on damage (and more so in High cases) though of course you lose the 5 rng acc. The elemental gorgets & Sea God torques are the best options, if you can manage to get your hands on them.

Earring
Triumph - 1.03% SW, 0.96% SS
Genin - 0.51% SW, 0.72% SS
+1 STR option - 0.51% SW, 0.48% SS
Drone - 0.39% SW, 0.54% SS
Fenrir's @ night - 2.35% SW, 2.22% SS

So Fenrir's @ night > all. After that, Triumph does the best - you gain about 5 D on a 1000 D slugwinder vs. Minuet/Cassie/etc. Genin is >= a +1 STR earring. Note on SS Drone is slightly better than +1 STR earrings as well.

Body
Kirin's Osode - 6.41% SW, 6.64% SS
Archer's Jupon - 4.91% SW, 4.63% SS
Blue Cotehardie +1 - 3.21% SW, 3.31% SS
Kyudogi +1 - 2.11% SW, 2.00% SS

OK. So on a 1000 damage SW with AF body, switching to Osode adds about 64 damage. If you are at 2000 damage with AF body, add about 128 damage (though in that High case it's more like 140 damage). Not shabby but not 200-300 as some have claimed. Archer's is not a bad substitute, once you get past the -10 rng acc lol. I threw in Blue Cot +1 to show how stupid the Kyudogi +1 piece is in comparison. It's just not worth very much.

Hands
S Kote - 1.93% SW, 2.71% SS
CFG - 2.35% SW, 2.22% SS
BFG - 2.58% SW, 2.45% SS

Basically here, the rule of thumb is S Kote for SS and CFG/BFG for SW. However at very High damage S Kote will begin to outdamage CFG on SW, and at very Low damage BFG will outdamage S Kote on SS.

Rings
The more STR the merrier. End of story.

Back
Amemit's +1 4tw. Gunner's Mantle can slightly outdamage in Low situations but do you really want the -10 rng acc? I didn't think so.

Waist
RSE +4 STR belt - 2.05% SW, 1.93% SS
RK +2 belt (home country no control) - 1.28% SW, 1.33% SS
RK +2 belt (home country control) - 2.69% SW, 2.66% SS
AF2 belt - 2.28% SW, 2.46% SS

RK+2 damages the best if the area is under your home country's control due to the RAtk +6 benefit (can't help in ToAU areas, sadly). The AF2 belt (if you can get it) is the next best alternative, followed by a +4 STR RSE belt.

Legs
Akinji Salvars - 0.94% SW, 0.89% SS
Jaridah Salvars - 0.70% SW, 0.67% SS
War Brais +1 - 0.64% SW, 0.90% SS
Galliard - 1.03% SW, 0.96% SS
Rep Cuisses (home country control) - 1.90% SW, 1.92% SS
P Seraweels - 1.54% SS, 1.45% SW

P Seraweels is the all around best piece in this slot. Republic Cuisses wins if you are fighting in nation controlled area. Otherwise get Galliard if you have a good LS or Akinji if you're rich. War Brais +1 actually does well on SS - something to note for you gun/xbow rangers.

Feet
AF2 - 2.35% SW, 2.22% SS
STR +3 feet - 1.54% SW, 1.45% SS
War Boots - 1.17% SW, 1.11% SS
War Boots +1 - 1.41% SW, 1.33% SS

There's lots of options for the STR + 3 feet, price em out vs. War Boots +1 and see which ones are a better buy. Otherwise regular old War Boots ain't bad, compared to the other buyable choices (AF2 . . . drool.)

So, that wraps it up. Again, please remember that these are averagish damage calculations against XP type mobs for level 75s. On HNMs RAtk will become more important. OTOH, if you are decked out against XP mobs, have a BRD, a debuffing RDM, etc., STR and AGI will deliver more marginal value.


Edited, Oct 27th 2006 at 7:30pm PDT by DeschainSiren: fixed AF2 belt, added some equipment

Edited, Oct 28th 2006 at 8:52am PDT by DeschainSiren
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#2 Oct 26 2006 at 9:18 PM Rating: Good
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/clap rate up for you ^^

Quote:
Necklace
Qiqirn Collar - 1.88% SW, 1.78% SS
Spike Necklace - 1.54% SW, 1.45% SS
Jagd Gorget - 1.41% SW, 1.33% SS
RNG Necklace - 1.17% SW, 1.11% SS
Elemental Gorgets - 1.94% both


**** looks that I will have to farm organs when i get back in 2~3months.
1 Q, How many of u would go kri/fran over kri/wood?


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#3 Oct 26 2006 at 9:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
To lead with my conclusion - which is highly generalized:
On sidewinders, 1 STR gets you the equivalent of 2.25 RAtk gets you the equivalent of 4 AGI.
On slug shots, 1 STR gets you the equivalent of 2.25 RAtk gets you the equivalent of 2.7 AGI.

:D

this is one of the best quote ever. Of course it may change due to varying circumstances, but its a pretty good generalization I'd say.

some things were WTF to me, like STR belt > AF2 belt and spike > RNG neck, but you lose racc with the STR items, so I guess thats a fair tradeoff...
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#4 Oct 26 2006 at 9:35 PM Rating: Decent
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slight skew of VIT and def can change the output...

I never really play with my excel this much though. I hate database D:
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#5 Oct 27 2006 at 3:33 AM Rating: Good
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VZX wrote
Quote:
slight skew of VIT and def can change the output...


I did play with different mob inputs a little, and while it did change the relationships slightly, it wasn't an enormous change, until you got to really big differences in the mob stats (like you'd see on HNMs).

What we really need is a database with mob stats in it . . . that would be great.
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#6 Oct 27 2006 at 3:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Nice work. A few other items I'd like to see calculated, though:

Hope Torque
Faith Torque
Pahluwan Seraweels
Republic Cuisses (in nation's control)
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#7 Oct 27 2006 at 4:30 AM Rating: Good
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Rep Cuisses (in nation control) - 1.90% SW, 1.92% SS
P Seraweels - 1.54% SW, 1.45% SS

Can't believe I forgot about these. Better than the other options.

Hope Torque - 2.28% SW, 0.90% SS
Faith Torque - 1.56% SS only

Like I'll ever get these lol.
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#8 Oct 27 2006 at 5:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Potent belt the +3 str +8 acc is probably your best option considering the melee.

Pants the new +4 str +4 vit ones, i think rng can use.

But, looking at the equipment, if you did put on the highest dmg in each slot, you probably couldnt hit the side of a barn.

Good job, you really do notice, in the end how little dmg difference changes can actually make. Noting osode and all the hard work to get that probably only doing 30dmg more then jupon on ws.

Franny is still better option as axe for the racc, woods looks to add 2-3 more dmg on ws.

Interested in seeing a balance of what should be worn to maximize dmg and acc. Ranged dmg overall has very little variation compared to melee, dmg doesnt sway much hit for hit compared to melee jobs, making this job more equal for every job. eg a mithra and taru with high agi can hit better so they can sacrife a racc slot to make up some str and ratt.
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#9 Oct 27 2006 at 5:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Rate Up, really alot of work put into this.

Quote:
To lead with my conclusion - which is highly generalized:
On sidewinders, 1 STR gets you the equivalent of 2.25 RAtk gets you the equivalent of 4 AGI.
On slug shots, 1 STR gets you the equivalent of 2.25 RAtk gets you the equivalent of 2.7 AGI.


From my experiences this sounds reasonable. Personally I'm a taru obow ranger, and I do believe I get my maximum damage going markmenship due to AGI picking up my lack of STR. It would explain why I see almost no difference between CFG and Kote. I generally kept Kote full time for the actually RACC bonus from AGI (preupdate where we missed all the time).

One correction in your equipment list:

Head: Maat's Cap > Wyvern Helm+1.
#10 Oct 27 2006 at 5:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Superfob said:
Quote:
Head: Maat's Cap > Wyvern Helm+1.


True. But Life >> Maat's Cap lol.
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#11 Oct 27 2006 at 7:14 AM Rating: Good
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Rate up for busting your *** on this lol.
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#12 Oct 27 2006 at 7:19 AM Rating: Decent
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DeschainSiren wrote:
Superfob said:
Quote:
Head: Maat's Cap > Wyvern Helm+1.


True. But Life >> Maat's Cap lol.


Well I'm more curious on how much Maat's Cap would effect damage %'s considering its like a mini Osode (+7).
#13 Oct 27 2006 at 7:27 AM Rating: Default
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Well if osode adds about 65 dmg on 1k slugs maats would do about 40 more dmg
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#14 Oct 27 2006 at 7:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Awesome Job Gunslinger ^^
Time to get off my **** and make some new WS equip swap macros.

Edit - Also, could you run Hawker's +1 ?

Edited, Oct 27th 2006 at 9:01am PDT by rapierdwit
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#15 Oct 27 2006 at 8:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Awesome post, I have messed around with the spreadsheet comparing a new piece of gear I was thinking of getting but was always too lazy to go into this kind of detail lol.
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#16 Oct 27 2006 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Your Scout's Belt numbers seem suspect. Are you taking into account the +5 AGI? If so, SS should get a bigger boost than SW.
Taking the averages you presented at the beginning, for added damage I get:
+4 str = 19.2 - 26.8 SW, 18.8 - 26.4 SS
+7 r.att +5 agi = 22.3 - 27.9 SW, 25.8 - 31.4 SS

Also, are you thinking of doing the same for normal ranged attacks? Mostly it'd be a comparison of STR vs R.Att, maybe I'll do it myself later.

So in general for bow, most damage would be
Vulcan's Staff
Wyvern Helm +1
Hope Torque
2x Triumph Earrings, Vampire + Fenrir's Earrings @night
Kirin's Osode
Blood Finger Gauntlets
2x Flame Rings
Amemet Mantle +1
Scout's Belt, R.K. Belt +2 in own nation-controlled zone
Pahluwan Seraweels, Republic Cuisses in own nation-controlled zone
Scout's Socks

Kinda disappointing that Hope Torque is better than Breeze Gorget for WS :/ Although as your overall attack increases (Berserk, 2x Minuet, etc) that changes.

Edited, Oct 27th 2006 at 11:03am PDT by lasthemy
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#17 Oct 27 2006 at 9:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Nice work and effort. Also thanks again for the calculator.

I think this helps to support what myself and other rangers have found whether through trial and error or just intuitively. I've posted elsewhere but some things that I've found as far as gear choices for damage:

fenrir's > triumphs (night time)
scout's socks > 3 str feet (mithra rse etc)

Overall, the key to ranger gear seems to be finding that balance of accuracy and str/ratk/agi that allows you to eat the food of your choice.

On a related note, what factors are there in determining whether or not your SlugWinder will be High or Low? Is it just random?
#18 Oct 27 2006 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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It's a random variation in PDIF. If your attack gets high enough variation disappears.

Edit: Oops, misread the description. Low is without Dia and Minuet, High is with Dia 2 and Minuet IV.

He's probably averaging over the variation due to PDIF.

Edited, Oct 27th 2006 at 10:58am PDT by lasthemy
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#19 Oct 27 2006 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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so socks > rutters for SW (and obviously per-shot)? i guess i should keep them if i ever decide to level sam ;/
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#20 Oct 27 2006 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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The calculations presented here don't include the AGI +5; the percentage bonus listed is the same as the one listed for Fransisca. Counting the +5 AGI, the AF2 belt should win over everything except perhaps RK +2 under national control.

Also worth noting is that with a THF or another RNG using Acids, the damage increase on bow or gun will go up by a large amount. The Acid effect is why 1 STR adds the same amount of damage to both E-bow and O-bow; STR adds proportionately more damage to Archery than to Marksmanship, but the greater PDIF on O-bow due to Acids multiplies the effects.

Otherwise, excellent work. ^^
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#21 Oct 27 2006 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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lasthemy wrote:
Kinda disappointing that Hope Torque is better than Breeze Gorget for WS :/ Although as your overall attack increases (Berserk, 2x Minuet, etc) that changes.

This is one misconception that I think should have been covered in a disclaimer in the original post.

Just because Hope Torque has more +damage potential than Breeze Gorget, that doesn't necessarily make it better. These comparisons do not (and cannot) account for accuracy. RKB+2 might have more raw damage potential than relic belt, but no one in their right mind would leave the relic belt in their MH.
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#22 Oct 27 2006 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Breeze Gorget also has a WS acc boost (at least +5, it's a hard one to determine). I always consider r.acc in my gear choices, but with full merits in xp, you only need +40-50 r.acc to get near 90-95% accuracy.

Edited, Oct 27th 2006 at 4:38pm PDT by lasthemy
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#23 Oct 27 2006 at 4:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Kinda disappointing that Hope Torque is better than Breeze Gorget for WS :/ Although as your overall attack increases (Berserk, 2x Minuet, etc) that changes.


I kinda thought the torque's would be possibly the best rng pieces next to af2 boots (i just got the af2+1 which are hawt). +skill is rare on rng, and since we already dont have A+ ratings....this is that much closer.

kind of like why at endgame brds go +wind instead of stacking +chr, same thing with +skill vs +int on blm.

Edited, Oct 27th 2006 at 5:54pm PDT by utfrodo
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#24 Oct 27 2006 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I found racc+ x ratk+x is more beneficial than skill+x
We don't get anything other than 0.9 raccuracy and 1 rattack per skill

Except if they make a new WS on 280~290 level, we'll talk again.
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#25 Oct 27 2006 at 6:29 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks guys, lots of good feedback here. I edited the results to fix the AF2 Belt error (I forgot about the +5 AGI) and to add other pieces people suggested.

Rapierdwit said
Quote:
Edit - Also, could you run Hawker's +1 ?


Impact is only 0.5% on SS High, no impact on SW at all.

Lasthemy said
Quote:
Also, are you thinking of doing the same for normal ranged attacks?


You trying to make me go blind? I stare at Excel 12 hours a day at work. XD

Raizins said
Quote:
On a related note, what factors are there in determining whether or not your SlugWinder will be High or Low? Is it just random


and Lasthemy said
Quote:
Low is without Dia and Minuet, High is with Dia 2 and Minuet IV.

He's probably averaging over the variation due to PDIF.


Essentially I wanted to test the results at two fairly widely varying "base damage" points, to see how consistent the incremental benefits are. The Dia/Minuet on/off was an easy way to do that. You could also interpret it as being vs. high and low defense mobs (which varies PDif as well.)

Mwin said
Quote:
Also worth noting is that with a THF or another RNG using Acids, the damage increase on bow or gun will go up by a large amount. The Acid effect is why 1 STR adds the same amount of damage to both E-bow and O-bow; STR adds proportionately more damage to Archery than to Marksmanship, but the greater PDIF on O-bow due to Acids multiplies the effects.


Correct. That's why I tried to focus on the relative benefits of STR/AGI/RAtk for Archery/Marks individually rather than comparing the benefits across the two weapons. Given exactly the same Atk v Def, mob level, STR v VIT, etc. STR benefits archery more than marksmanship. But acid bolts are an intergral part of the obow setup so I felt it was important to include them.

On another note I've partied with another RNG exactly once since the nerf-patch.

Redvenomweb said
Quote:
Just because Hope Torque has more +damage potential than Breeze Gorget, that doesn't necessarily make it better. These comparisons do not (and cannot) account for accuracy. RKB+2 might have more raw damage potential than relic belt, but no one in their right mind would leave the relic belt in their MH.


I think I covered this with

Quote:
(assuming ranged accuracy isn't a problem, which of course is a consideration)


but yeah, I don't want to see any RNG out there with STR onry builds asking me why they can't hit anything. XD
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#26 Oct 27 2006 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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STR build is like woodville's on main hand and Ifrit's on sub.
So great! 7 total STR in the weapon slots.
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Princess ThePsychoticOne wrote:
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