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lower level RNG/SAM effectivenessFollow

#1 Feb 02 2004 at 10:16 AM Rating: Decent
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I've tried out a number of subjobs trying to find one that would be almost as enjoyable to level as Ranger. THF was my first, and while I enjoy THF/RNG, I've found RNG/THF to be a little less effective, and not as much fun as I was hoping for.

I also tried NIN, but during the leveling I came to the realization how expensive a really effective RNG/NIN is. I can do ammo or ninjitsu, but keeping both up to par was just a little more than I wanted to deal with. I also found leveling NIN a bit boring for my tastes.

I'm leveling a SAM now to try out with RNG. So far I've enjoyed leveling SAM the most as a subjob. And the SAM 2 hour looks like it will work pretty well for chaining Great Katana WS's along with Bow WS's (gotta love that RNG sub).

I do have one concern though. I know pre-60 RNG/SAM's are not the most effective character. But are they effective enough to get by, and not worry too much about getting a group invite? (after leveling a THF to 30 not being able to get a group is my biggest fear).

Thanks for any info you guys can offer.
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#2 Feb 02 2004 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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I know it's a little goofy to say it, but not a lot of NA pre-30/35 understand the effectiveness of a RNG, so you'd probably get by with subbing SAM. They'll thnik "omg, s/he'll use so many WSs!" and still invite you for that reason.

Play what you want to play, and enjoy the game. Don't conform to what other people tell you is good. =)
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#3 Feb 02 2004 at 11:25 AM Rating: Decent
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i enjoy being strongest o.0
i think the person who posted wanted to be the strongest and most efficent.
You can get by with RNG/SAM low lvls, but even at high lvls this is a hard task. You have to learn to control aggro at higher lvls, because 2 ws on one monster will most likely give you aggro. Or you can just use the ws to finish off a monster at higher lvls.

I personally dont know for sure which subjob i'll go. Still considering RNG/Nin or RNG/WAR... maybe RNG/SAM in the future, so I'm stuck like you. But those 3 are the top choices. Either way, you'll do alot of damage.

P.S RNG should do his/her best to keep equipment up.
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#4 Feb 02 2004 at 12:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually having fun is what concerns me most. But not being able to get a party because people think I'm not effective is a bit of a problem. I ran into that a lot when leveling my THF.

Like I said in my first post, NIN just seemed kind of boring to me. And I'd rather not spend extra time and gil leveling a job that isn't that much fun for me....it's too much like work.

My biggest problem is that I know I will be less accurate than a RNG/NIN (that doesn't bother me), but I wasn't sure if I'd be missing so much at lower and mid levels that I simply wouldn't be doing enough damage to be effective. Basically I have no sense of the scale of the difference outside of a number which holds only vague meaning.

I know 2 AGI = +1 Ranged accuracy. And that at any given level the RNG/SAM has about 2-3 less AGI than RNG/NIN. So neglecting the extra Archer Knife, that's about +1 Ranged Acc that I lose. But I haven't seen anything saying about how much a +1 Ranged Acc actually affects your accuracy.

Thank you both for your responses. Unless we have a RNG/SAM who's been through levels 20-40 as a RNG/SAM answer I guess I'll have to fill everyone in on how it is.

R.P.S. My equipment is always the best available (except for the stuff that drops off of NM's and costs 100k+) including ammo's, the only exception being when I decide to farm with my RNG. Thanks for the advice though.
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#5 Feb 02 2004 at 1:48 PM Rating: Decent
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If my arrows are landing my tp is great, but I have noticed that so far if my tp is less than 200 my ws hardly does more damage than a critical hit (and I'm having a tough time making up my mind wich of the first 2 bow ws's cause the most consistant damage...it seems to be flaming>piercing for lower tp, but at high tp piercing all the way). I would really love to hear if you're having any luck with a level 20-30 SAM sub...I'm planning to use nin 20-30, war till 60, then either war of sam after 60 (that's a loong way off tho ><; )

Please, keep this thread updated.
#6 Feb 04 2004 at 9:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok, finally took my lvl 22 RNG/SAM for a spin. Here's what it was like.

Got hooked up with a good group hunting snippers out in Qufim. Early on I was using a Power Bow +1 and Iron arrows, and would hit at least 3 out of 4 shots for around 50 dmg, even on the IT's. Not sure what changed, but at some point I started missing a lot more, switched to beetle arrows and the problem was quickly fixed. Started hitting 3-4 out of 5 times with damage around 40-45.

TP gain wasn't spectacular, but it was really good. I had no trouble building up for weapon skills, but I wasn't at a point where I could release more than one per battle.

I do think I'm going to have to start buying or farming for wild onions rather than going with meat mithkabobs though. A little extra agi seems to be a bit more important than extra STR at the moment.
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#7 Feb 04 2004 at 11:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not talking from experience, just making a educated guess. Each tp build just adds one tp per hit. I think that this would be most effective for a dagger wielding thief who'll attack quickly. Likewise it'd probably be worst for a ranger who attacks very slow.(Barring rapid shot activation) I went warrior sub for my ranger, with my thief being for farming and a second main job, I don't see thieves mixing with rangers that well outside farming, where thief/ranger or vice versa is incredible. All they add is the agility(Which at my level in the twenties is one higher then war sub with 3 less str) and you can get just as much of that from a nin sub, which offers more on top of that for a ranger.

That said, don't worry about a sam sub lowering your chance of getting into parties. Rangers are like bard, although to a lesser extent, in that they aren't common, but are very good. If there's people in your level range looking for members you'll get snatched up quick. They probably won't even look at your subjob.
#8 Feb 05 2004 at 1:00 AM Rating: Decent
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tp gain depends on delay.

Just to let you guys know, pre lvl 30 is different from post 30. At higher lvl, ppl will get increasing picking since more ppl will know what they are doing. I hear that at very high lvls, jpn will consider your race and whether if you kept up with your subjob. Once you get in, they keep an eye on you too to see how you perform.

As for /SAM, I have asked a couple high lvl rng and they say that tank alone will not able to keep hate if you pull more than 2 ws/barrage in a fight. He said that /sam is good so that you get more chances to land a sidewinder. Anther ranger said that /nin is the best because you hit and you can use blink to defend yourself.
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#9 Feb 05 2004 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
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I know tp gain depends on the delay of the weapon, it was the SAM modifier that not too many people on the board know about, and I imagine were curious about.

I have a little bit of doubt on Komputers explanation about picky players, I have a friend who was a 40+WHM/16SMN and he never seemed to have trouble finding a party. Then again he was a WHM, and people may take what they can get when it comes to that. It'll be a ways off but I'll let you guys know how that part of it works out as well, since that too is a part of leveling a character like this.

As for the WS's, yes I know a high level RNG/SAM's job is primarily to pull hate off the WHM after they've used their 2 hour ability. Hate management is something I know I have to be careful with (even if I used other subjobs), but at this level it's not much of an issue since I don't have barrage (I think this hits hard), sidewinder, or any of the other high damage skills that become available to the high level ranger. So at the moment it's something I'll be concious of, but not go out of my way to manage until it becomes an issue.

Now that responding to the other posts is taken care of..

I took the RNG/SAM for another spin this morning. Found another good party (been having good luck with that recently). We were fighting Pugils and the occasional snipper in Qufim; all IT to a lvl 25 WAR. Also got ahold of some wild onions(-6 VIT +4 AGI), but didn't have much luck finding the Windhurst Salads (-1VIT +5AGI) that I wanted. I think it might be a good idea to start a thread on a good diet for Rangers.

I was still using the beetle arrows and power bow +1. With the beetle arrows and the onion effects (not bad breath) I missed very rarely, maybe once or twice in 10 shots, usually hitting in the low 40's. Without beetle arrows my shots were going wide more often than they hit though. Considering what we were fighting was IT to someone 3 levels above me though, that wasn't a big surprise.

So far I've found as long as I take the time to prepare properly (food, +Acc arrows and other equip) that I haven't had any significant problems hitting targets. However if I start getting sloppy and forget food, I miss a lot more than most rangers of the same level with different subjobs.

Sidenote:

The reasons why I started this thread are in the first post, but I think I should let you guys know why I've decided to continue it as well.

There seems to be at least one or two threads every week asking about various subjobs for RNG's. The big four are always mentioned, WAR, NIN, SAM, and THF; NIN is regarded as the best since you can dual wield the Archer Knives. THF and SAM generally the worst, until 60 where SAM becomes "viable."

But in all those threads I didn't see anyone who said: I tried RNG/* at lvl ## - it worked out like this ~~~~, so I suggest using [this/another] job combination. It just seemed that all the posts were backed with theory or 2nd hand experience rather than first hand (even though I am sure at least some of the responders had first hand knowledge of some of the job combinations). I was guilty of this myself in a couple of posts.

I'm continuing this post so that people who are looking at RNG/SAM as a job combination can get an idea what to expect from level 20 on up to the coveted 60.

I think it would be great if we could have some other similar threads about RNG/NIN, RNG/WAR, and RNG/THF since that could give us someplace to refer new players (remember NA-PS2 release is coming up) to if they are wondering what it's like.

Anyway that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Edited, Thu Feb 5 09:07:42 2004 by Jigensan
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#10 Feb 06 2004 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
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i was considering RNG/SAM in the long run, but i thought it such a pain to wit til 60 to get the great benefits from the SAM subjob. i don't plan to dedicate my life to this game, hahah. seems like you're doing okay with the RNG/SAM combo.

and yeah, thanks for the post. i'll be looking forward to your updates.
#11 Feb 14 2004 at 9:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Was on a business trip last week so I haven't gotten to play much. But I did get a few levels yesterday and today.

Qufim was the same as I stated before. I got up to lvl 24 after finding a couple good groups. Went on to Kazham a little early (lvl 24), and managed to grab another level after I got there. So currently I'm RNG25/SAM12.

I haven't had much more trouble than usual finding a group. While I'm not getting random invites like I did in other areas at lower levels, I usually don't have to wait more than 10 or 15 min for a party unless I'm on at an odd hour. It's definatley easier to find a group with this combination than it was with my THF the first time I went through there.

Still not much trouble hitting stuff as long as I'm well prepared. I'm also finding I can hit the Turnips (can't spell their normal name) fairly well even without onions as long as I use beetle arrows. Usually 8-9 out of 10 with onions, 6-8 out of 10 without. I haven't picked up any silver arrow's yet, but I probably will after my farming tommorow. That way I can see how well I do without the Ranged Acc boost of the beetle arrows.

On average against an IT with the group, I can let loose with 2 weapon skills. Oddly I've only managed to pull a lot of hate once though. Whether that's because I'm not outdamaging the rest of my group, or I've been lucky enough to work with some very good tanks, is something I can't determine yet.

Since I'm still seeing that the little additions to Ranged Acc seem to make a big difference with this character combination I'm going extra lengths for some better equipment. I picked up a pair of Martial Slacks (~18k on Unicorn), and will probably be going for a reasonably priced AGI boosting boots sometime over the weekend (probably something around the 10k range, I don't have time to farm 100-200k for a single item...yet). I'm becoming more and more curious as to how much a difference the Archer Knife will make when I can finally equip it.

My plan at this point is to take my RNG to 30-33 in between using my THF to farm for ammo expenses, which I noticed are starting to increase rather quickly. After that I'll start leveling my SAM up again. What I'm not sure about is how far I'll take SAM for this round of leveling because, well it's the only other job I've played so far that's almost as much fun as my RNG. I think I'll probably go to at least 20, maybe to 25 or all the way to 30 depending on my mood and the groups I find.
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#12 Feb 14 2004 at 9:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Jigensan wrote:

But in all those threads I didn't see anyone who said: I tried RNG/* at lvl ## - it worked out like this ~~~~, so I suggest using [this/another] job combination. It just seemed that all the posts were backed with theory or 2nd hand experience rather than first hand (even though I am sure at least some of the responders had first hand knowledge of some of the job combinations). I was guilty of this myself in a couple of posts.

You will see this a lot. The reason why is because there is a good deal of time that needs to be invested in order to say, "Yes, I've tested it, and RNG/SAM is, in fact, worse than RNG/NIN at LVxx."

Essentially, you don't need to equip the subjob in order to see the difference. The differences in stats between the jobs are relatively trivial when you take into account all the bonuses you should be getting from equipment. The big differences are in job traits and abilities.

Berserk will give you +25% to attack.
Dual Wield effectively gives you +10.5 RACC.
Utsusemi gives you ~3 attack evades.

Pre-60, /SAM gives you one passive TP up (+1% per hit when SAM is subbed) at 20/10, and Third Eye at 30/15. Third Eye is nice to use before Barrage, but it's on a 60 sec timer, and only dodges one hit. Utsusemi is clearly superior (and rightfully so, it's a spell); 3 hits, 30 sec timer. When it comes to TP, /NIN will still outgain you with DW daggers. DW daggers attack at 90% of original delay, which is a bigger percentage increase than the 1% TP gain from the first Store TP.

Pretty much all of the above is simple mathematical number-crunching. Now, if two people go out and actually use RNG/SAM and RNG/NIN pre-60, how can the comparison be fair? They will most likely be using different equipment, fighting different mobs, with different party compositions. You can have two people with identical jobs go out and report back with different results, so it is to be expected that two different jobs will have different results, as well.

Anecdotes are not the best way to make a comparison (and in order to make a controlled comparison, we would have to have a lot of information about the game engine that Squenix obviously would not allow).

The most unbiased way to compare the jobs is to take the (limited) hard statistics that we do have access to and crunch those.
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#13 Feb 14 2004 at 10:38 PM Rating: Decent
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I have all three subs: war, nin, and sam. I am fairly high lvled, but not 60 yet. I can tell from the three subs, sam is not as good. I am guessing that even post60, sam won't be good because of aggro. What sam will be good at is in boss fights when the pally can use his 2hr and you can blast away without reservations; otherwise, sam is a weaker sub in all lvls, but still good given the right situations.

I say post 40, invites comes mostly from friends, connection, LS, and pure luck. Your reputations as being good starts to count at later levels. You can always use meat and other foods to suppliment your sam if you are worried about not doing enough damage or hitting often enough. As long as you deal enough damage and do good pulls, you get invites. There are some picky players, but they are very rare or jpn. You should get by using sam.
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#14 Feb 22 2004 at 5:09 PM Rating: Decent
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hmn.
I played rng/sam to 25 now. And just to clear some things im writing here^^

1. I dont hit as often as rng/nin or rng/thf. With no food bonus its about 3/5 arrows that hit! But i use Wild Onions and hit just aswell as the rest!

2. TP: I get 15% per hit! enough to get atleast one WS of a fight!

3. Getting a PT pre 30 does not require any combo of jobs. ( as mentioned earlier by another poster. )

4. To top it off im an Elvaan with a natural low agi! but i still hit as good as a hume. ( Chekked this myself! )

In any case. If you want to have a sub with less agi, you prolly have to buy your way to it! I have a steady +15agi when playing my rng/sam and that seems to be enough!
So get ready to hunt for Emporors hairpin and get some good boots! Then you'll have a great sub with sam!
I really enjoy it anyhow^^

Laterness
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#15 Feb 23 2004 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Alright here's what I've seen as a sam/war. My normal tp gain wasnt great as a war unless i was hitting and getting hit. However as a sam/war I get 1-2 more tp off of being hit, and 1-5 from hitting. I think the effectiveness with Rng/sam would come into play at the higher accuracy for both melee and ranged attacks with a better chance of getting agro. I've seen a lvl 30 rng do so much dmg that a pld and two wars couldnt voke the mob off. So with a higher dex/agi bonus I could only imaging 4-5 hits at 45-60dmg making IT mobs your worst enemy. Once you pop your tp expect to die in some fights. I've seen it with rng/nin.
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