Cheating vs TacticsFollow

Would you consider the following cheating or clever use of the terrain:

In one of the newbie zones, there's a nice little solo spot. You can basically pull a mob to the spot, and then, by sidestepping back and forth, you can essentially yo-yo or kite the mob. Shoot, 5 steps left -> mob runs way out and around to get to you (even though you're 5 feet away), Shoot while he's running away, 5 steps right, rinse/repeat.

You can basically kill the mob without taking a single hit.

It doesn't work on VT/IT mobs because you just can't hit them often enough so the exp/time ratio drops.

Anyway, cheating or no?

I would think it's considered cheating, because you're using a pathing exploit to advance unfairly.

Anyways, that's what they'd say in EQ. And I know this isn't EQ, but *I* think it's "cheating." But if Square-Enix doesn't, then hurrah, heh.

It annoys me that any sort of attempt to try to gain a tactical advantage against mobs is considered "cheating." The very first time I was in Sarutabaruta, by the lake north of the entrance to town, the first thing that came to my mind was, "I wonder how I can shoot the guys on the other side of the lake."

Apparently, one is discouraged from trying to figure out any way to attack the enemy and avoid taking damage. The lesson learned is, hey, you hit them, let them hit you, repeat for 74 levels. Just like a hockey fight.

I found a spot exactly like this in West Ronfure on my ranger. There was a tree next to a hill that when fighting near caused the mobs to first run up the hill and back down before pathing to the left or right of the tree.

You could fire a bowshot, step left of the tree. Fire a bowshot, step right of the tree. All the while taking 0 damage. I remember at one point i ran out of arrows and was low on HP so i called for help and just yo-yo'd the mob back and forth for about 5 minutes before someone came and dispatched it.

It's a case by case basis. There's a spot in Batallia like this. I called a GM to investigate (yes I tattle-taled, no regrets). He told me it was indeed tactics for that paticular spot. It boggled me because I know someone who was jailed for a short time for basically doing the same thing in Tahrongi.

Bottom line: use at your own discretion.

What did they change about the worms? I didn't unlock ranger until about a week ago, and I never tried hunting VT/IT's solo before I got this job.

Well i'm in Korroloka tunnel and I can solo VT/IT Land Worms anyways depending on how many times they cast stonega. You can still do it, just takes a little more skill.

What a loser.

how can this be considered as cheating? because mobs AI not well written? and if we take this advantage, we will get jailed?

when a sharpshooter(real life) in the field, covering himself on top of some building, killing tones of ppl with out getting killed... whould this be considered as cheating?

in our game, if we hit the mob from far, and the mob can't find us, there's no way I can agree it as cheating.

I tried to nuke a goblin fisher from the cliff (very high) and the gob came to hit me by jumping up next to me, now that make no sense at all! how can a short little goblin jump that high while chocobo bird can't?

Why not just let us take advantage of the landscape and play it the way we want? worried about player may feed up the game and not gonna pay mthly fee anymore?

and about worm... worm can cast bind instantly, now that make no sense again. and the magic range? more than 1.5 times than normal range!! I'll be happier if they make the worm chasing us under ground and popup in front of me. that make more sense!

Well I never take the advantage on the lag of AI (except MazeMaker) but I certinly won't agree hit&run is cheating, it is tatics as in real life.

if one got to be hit when you hit others, I gues one should never become a boxer. (a boxer not dogding fists... LOL)

Well I'll try it with my RNG, and if GM jailed me, I'm gonna complaint. They can't put fault on the user for the holes off their programming.

Edited, Wed Jan 21 22:52:37 2004 by onikyu

loser.

Here is where I see a problem with this --

Yes, I think utilizing the pathing problems in a game is exploitation. You see, I play these games to get immersed in some other reality...I do a little roleplay sometimes too. Now it just doesn't make sense to me that a MOB come running up to you...then turns around walks away for 50 ft before coming back at you. That's clearly not an intended design "feature" that the developers put in. Now if you want to do this...go for it, but it's silly to come to a board and expect people to support you and say, "yes! I think it's ok...go do it". No sense arguing this.

On the other hand, you don't have to stretch reality too far into thinking that a real ranger would find higher or unreachable ground as an advantage in combat. It's simple rules of engagement in any war scenario. So if I hop on a rooftop and fire at something that can't reach me..../shrug. I don't this should be considered an exploit.



Yes and no. Isn't this like an ambush? Now of course, if you were ambushed by a group, you'd probably turn tail and run. Maybe one day AI will get to the point they have a sense of self-preservation :)

Edited, Fri Jan 23 16:18:54 2004 by Kamena

In responce to the "root, DoT, Nuke tactics". Ever see a Druid in Everquest? As a Druid I could easily solo mobs that usually took a group, using the root, Dot, Nuke method. But EQ did allow a bit more room for soloing than FFXI does. That's almost my theory as to why FFXI doesn't have a Druid Equivilent class. (I suppose a Ranger/Beastmaster or a Beastmaster/Ranger could be considered equivilant, but you still wouldn't get the great amount of spells that an EQ druid had).

As to tactics versus cheating I really doubt that the method of dodge hits because of bad AI is considered cheating. If it were really a big problem SE would've fixed it by now! Besides, if that is considered cheating, what about the several dozen theories of dodging the gobby bombs? Is THAT cheating?

What this really is is a difference of opinion. Until a GM or SE says otherwise, I'd feel free to fight howwever you want to!

They do fix pathing problems. Pathing are the most abundant errors in any MMORPGs, but like anything in life, there is a limited amount of time and resource. They can't snap their fingers and fix every single problem, just what are being exploited the most and deemed the more important. I can go to any zone and find pathing problems, and just because they're there, doesn't mean SE doesn't care about them and that they're open season.

Simply put...

Anything is an exploit if it is advantageous beyond the desires of the designers *AND* the developers can't fix it before hundreds of people take advantage.

Pathing issues are a tricky thing. They've written their particular pathing algorithm and that's how its done. To change it may have unintentional effects all over this game's world.

So don't be surprised if using this tactic is labled "exploitation" if the designers don't like it and the developers can't fix it readily, as they may or may not have with worms.

I dunno who started the ninjas blink tanking must be an exploit thing, but the costs of ninja powders required to do this just about equal the costs of the rangers ammo supply. A legit skill given to and expanded on by the developers that costs more than just about anything else in the game to maintain can hardly be classed with making a mob run 50 feet around a tree instead of walking directly towards you...

A relevant note to this thread:

Reportedly, Square has stated in an interview for Famitsu magazine that they did not intend for the Ninja class to be a tank (it's not exactly a "ninja" characteristic, is it?).

The nerf bat is coming. When it hits, does that mean that all NIN/WARs were using exploits, and should be sent to jail?