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Cheating vs TacticsFollow

#1 Jan 15 2004 at 5:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Would you consider the following cheating or clever use of the terrain:

In one of the newbie zones, there's a nice little solo spot. You can basically pull a mob to the spot, and then, by sidestepping back and forth, you can essentially yo-yo or kite the mob. Shoot, 5 steps left -> mob runs way out and around to get to you (even though you're 5 feet away), Shoot while he's running away, 5 steps right, rinse/repeat.

You can basically kill the mob without taking a single hit.

It doesn't work on VT/IT mobs because you just can't hit them often enough so the exp/time ratio drops.

Anyway, cheating or no?
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#2 Jan 15 2004 at 6:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Hard to say....a GM would know better than we would. I'd just go ahead and put in a call on it when you get a chance.
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#3 Jan 15 2004 at 7:31 PM Rating: Decent
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I would think it's considered cheating, because you're using a pathing exploit to advance unfairly.

Anyways, that's what they'd say in EQ. And I know this isn't EQ, but *I* think it's "cheating." But if Square-Enix doesn't, then hurrah, heh.
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#4 Jan 15 2004 at 9:13 PM Rating: Decent
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EQ really took that seriously as 'cheating'. Ask yourself...if you saw someone else doing the same thing would it bother you? Some would say yes...some no.

Now if it isn't policed as heavily in FFXI then more power to you... every MMO I've played has had pathing exploits like that. Just accept the chance you could be thrown in FFXI purgatory for a while as a consequence of someone reporting you.
#5 Jan 16 2004 at 2:20 AM Rating: Decent
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It annoys me that any sort of attempt to try to gain a tactical advantage against mobs is considered "cheating." The very first time I was in Sarutabaruta, by the lake north of the entrance to town, the first thing that came to my mind was, "I wonder how I can shoot the guys on the other side of the lake."

Apparently, one is discouraged from trying to figure out any way to attack the enemy and avoid taking damage. The lesson learned is, hey, you hit them, let them hit you, repeat for 74 levels. Just like a hockey fight.
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#6 Jan 16 2004 at 2:59 AM Rating: Decent
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It's not that you can't find a tactical advantage and use it..it's which ones were designed into the game intentionally, and which ones weren't. Mobs probably aren't intended to be as "dumb" as they are in the one particular spot Baazl has found.

Finding a way to kill something without getting hit should be fine, as long as the tactics employed for that sort of thing don't rely on an anomaly in the game design.

By that reasoning, Baazl's find is probably not allowed. But as I said, a GM would know better.

I rather think the lesson learned is "Maybe you can do it, but it's not gonna be that easy."
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#7 Jan 16 2004 at 5:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I found a spot exactly like this in West Ronfure on my ranger. There was a tree next to a hill that when fighting near caused the mobs to first run up the hill and back down before pathing to the left or right of the tree.

You could fire a bowshot, step left of the tree. Fire a bowshot, step right of the tree. All the while taking 0 damage. I remember at one point i ran out of arrows and was low on HP so i called for help and just yo-yo'd the mob back and forth for about 5 minutes before someone came and dispatched it.

#8 Jan 16 2004 at 9:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Pretty black and white to me. Yes it's cheating, because you're exploiting pathing problems. It's no different than if you were able to get the mob stuck while it was running.



Edited, Fri Jan 16 21:50:42 2004 by Moralpanic
#9 Jan 16 2004 at 10:01 PM Rating: Default
It's a case by case basis. There's a spot in Batallia like this. I called a GM to investigate (yes I tattle-taled, no regrets). He told me it was indeed tactics for that paticular spot. It boggled me because I know someone who was jailed for a short time for basically doing the same thing in Tahrongi.

Bottom line: use at your own discretion.
#10 Jan 17 2004 at 12:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Prior to the last patch, did any of you consider soloing VT/IT worms "cheating"? It obviously was, since they fixed it. Should they punish all the players who abused worms for tens of thousands of xp points?

I don't think players should be penalized for discovering the most effective ways to kill mobs. As long as you are playing within the rules of the engine (i.e. no third-party programs), if you find some crazy way to kill mobs without getting hit, kudos to you. Use it until you lose it. If Squenix thinks that strat is "too effective," let them nerf it.

I hate the idea of thinking up a strategy, then worrying about, "Wait, this might be TOO GOOD... I might get banned!" I would never have even ATTEMPTED blink tanking as a NIN/WAR, as that seems like an obvious exploit, but for whatever reason, Squenix allows it. Same goes with Yokodama (though they eventually nerfed that anyway).

Edited, Sat Jan 17 00:26:08 2004 by redvenomweb
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#11 Jan 17 2004 at 2:17 PM Rating: Decent
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What did they change about the worms? I didn't unlock ranger until about a week ago, and I never tried hunting VT/IT's solo before I got this job.
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#12 Jan 17 2004 at 7:59 PM Rating: Decent
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As I understand it, in the 12/15 patch Squenix dramatically increased worm casting range, so that the old cast/shoot, when worm starts to cast, run out of range, run back, wash/rinse/repeat strategy no longer works.
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#13 Jan 19 2004 at 11:34 PM Rating: Default
Well i'm in Korroloka tunnel and I can solo VT/IT Land Worms anyways depending on how many times they cast stonega. You can still do it, just takes a little more skill.
#14 Jan 20 2004 at 1:22 PM Rating: Default
I dont know who said that this tactic doesnt work but i did it with my blm and i am currently doing it with my ranger it still works even after the patch i was doing it yesterday. If the worm casts stone right off the bat then he usually hits me but every other spell misses since thier casting time is too long. as long as u have decent timing and know the spot one step from where u can/cant shoot then you will be fine. it is tough to get the distance down but once you do its worth it.
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#15 Jan 20 2004 at 11:43 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
It's a case by case basis. There's a spot in Batallia like this. I called a GM to investigate (yes I tattle-taled, no regrets). He told me it was indeed tactics for that paticular spot. It boggled me because I know someone who was jailed for a short time for basically doing the same thing in Tahrongi.


What a loser.
#16 Jan 21 2004 at 2:00 AM Rating: Default
ugh. who started this post? why?
if its not a bot fix or some other outside source, how is it cheating? Moral musings in a computer game? Pathing problem or no, its hardly cheating, its an advantage of the class. Rangers get screwed on decent armour/def, so IMHO any hit u get without getting hit in return is the whole point of a ranged attacker. And botteling the mob? sounds like a free bind to me. seriously though, cheating?
no.
more like finding ways to creatively advance your class.
ask me if the 3rd party software that u use which grants u permanent haste + 50 is cheating and ill say "yes" no question.
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#17 Jan 21 2004 at 10:38 PM Rating: Decent
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how can this be considered as cheating? because mobs AI not well written? and if we take this advantage, we will get jailed?

when a sharpshooter(real life) in the field, covering himself on top of some building, killing tones of ppl with out getting killed... whould this be considered as cheating?

in our game, if we hit the mob from far, and the mob can't find us, there's no way I can agree it as cheating.

I tried to nuke a goblin fisher from the cliff (very high) and the gob came to hit me by jumping up next to me, now that make no sense at all! how can a short little goblin jump that high while chocobo bird can't?

Why not just let us take advantage of the landscape and play it the way we want? worried about player may feed up the game and not gonna pay mthly fee anymore?

and about worm... worm can cast bind instantly, now that make no sense again. and the magic range? more than 1.5 times than normal range!! I'll be happier if they make the worm chasing us under ground and popup in front of me. that make more sense!

Well I never take the advantage on the lag of AI (except MazeMaker) but I certinly won't agree hit&run is cheating, it is tatics as in real life.

if one got to be hit when you hit others, I gues one should never become a boxer. (a boxer not dogding fists... LOL)

Well I'll try it with my RNG, and if GM jailed me, I'm gonna complaint. They can't put fault on the user for the holes off their programming.

Edited, Wed Jan 21 22:52:37 2004 by onikyu
#18 Jan 23 2004 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I don't think players should be penalized for discovering the most effective ways to kill mobs. As long as you are playing within the rules of the engine (i.e. no third-party programs), if you find some crazy way to kill mobs without getting hit, kudos to you. Use it until you lose it. If Squenix thinks that strat is "too effective," let them nerf it.


I guess you're not familiar with the word EXPLOITATION?

Just becauseyou believe it's so, doesn't make it true. In any MMORPG, these type of 'tactics' are considered exploitation and against the rules of the game. Going on roofs or other high places so the mobs can't attack you, getting them stuck in a tree so they can't attack you, or taking advantage of pathing problems, are ALL considered exploitation. To believe otherwise is simply ignorance.

Edited, Fri Jan 23 09:48:46 2004 by Moralpanic
#19 Jan 23 2004 at 2:16 PM Rating: Default
loser.
#20 Jan 23 2004 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Really? And I supposed pulling a mob to a secluded area where he'll get mobbed by your pt is fair game. Nothing is perfect in this world, so why make a game perfect? It's the imperfection that makes people wanna learn more and explore. What's fun is it to be a cookie cutter then?

If the location is in a newbie area, how much longer do you think he can do this before he outlevel the mobs there and have to move on?
#21 Jan 23 2004 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
In any MMORPG, these type of 'tactics' are considered exploitation and against the rules of the game. Going on roofs or other high places so the mobs can't attack you, getting them stuck in a tree so they can't attack you, or taking advantage of pathing problems, are ALL considered exploitation. To believe otherwise is simply ignorance.


Here is where I see a problem with this --

Yes, I think utilizing the pathing problems in a game is exploitation. You see, I play these games to get immersed in some other reality...I do a little roleplay sometimes too. Now it just doesn't make sense to me that a MOB come running up to you...then turns around walks away for 50 ft before coming back at you. That's clearly not an intended design "feature" that the developers put in. Now if you want to do this...go for it, but it's silly to come to a board and expect people to support you and say, "yes! I think it's ok...go do it". No sense arguing this.

On the other hand, you don't have to stretch reality too far into thinking that a real ranger would find higher or unreachable ground as an advantage in combat. It's simple rules of engagement in any war scenario. So if I hop on a rooftop and fire at something that can't reach me..../shrug. I don't this should be considered an exploit.

Quote:
I supposed pulling a mob to a secluded area where he'll get mobbed by your pt is fair game.


Yes and no. Isn't this like an ambush? Now of course, if you were ambushed by a group, you'd probably turn tail and run. Maybe one day AI will get to the point they have a sense of self-preservation :)

Edited, Fri Jan 23 16:18:54 2004 by Kamena
#22 Jan 24 2004 at 3:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Moralpanic wrote:
I guess you're not familiar with the word EXPLOITATION?

Just becauseyou believe it's so, doesn't make it true. In any MMORPG, these type of 'tactics' are considered exploitation and against the rules of the game. Going on roofs or other high places so the mobs can't attack you, getting them stuck in a tree so they can't attack you, or taking advantage of pathing problems, are ALL considered exploitation. To believe otherwise is simply ignorance.

Let's see what is and is not "exploitation":

Casting bind/root, debuff mob run speed, DoT, and walk away leisurely. (i.e. kiting) Tactic or exploit? Depends on which game you're playing.

NIN can go an entire battle with aggro, without getting hit once. Yet because this is (apparently) an Official Sanctioned Strategy, it is deemed not to be an exploit. OK.

Mage/RNG used to be able to dance in and out of the spellcasting range of IT worms, and solo them. (apparently they still can, but it's much more difficult) They could solo a mob that would decimate a FULL PARTY of characters their level, if fought "legitimately." This is not an exploit?

Don't give me the whole "It is obviously considered exploitation" garbage, because they (the creators of various MMORPGs) can be totally arbitrary with what they consider an exploit. It's only an "exploit" because they say it is, nothing more.

Rather than have players trying to guess whether or not they should be allowed to do what they are doing, the creators should just FIX something if it's broken.

Squenix made the rules, and I'm playing by them. If they don't like the results, let them change the rules; that's perfectly within their power.

Edited, Sat Jan 24 03:48:27 2004 by redvenomweb
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#23 Jan 24 2004 at 6:24 PM Rating: Decent
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redvenomweb wrote:
Moralpanic wrote:
I guess you're not familiar with the word EXPLOITATION?

Just becauseyou believe it's so, doesn't make it true. In any MMORPG, these type of 'tactics' are considered exploitation and against the rules of the game. Going on roofs or other high places so the mobs can't attack you, getting them stuck in a tree so they can't attack you, or taking advantage of pathing problems, are ALL considered exploitation. To believe otherwise is simply ignorance.

Let's see what is and is not "exploitation":

Casting bind/root, debuff mob run speed, DoT, and walk away leisurely. (i.e. kiting) Tactic or exploit? Depends on which game you're playing.

Edited, Sat Jan 24 03:48:27 2004 by redvenomweb


In responce to the "root, DoT, Nuke tactics". Ever see a Druid in Everquest? As a Druid I could easily solo mobs that usually took a group, using the root, Dot, Nuke method. But EQ did allow a bit more room for soloing than FFXI does. That's almost my theory as to why FFXI doesn't have a Druid Equivilent class. (I suppose a Ranger/Beastmaster or a Beastmaster/Ranger could be considered equivilant, but you still wouldn't get the great amount of spells that an EQ druid had).

As to tactics versus cheating I really doubt that the method of dodge hits because of bad AI is considered cheating. If it were really a big problem SE would've fixed it by now! Besides, if that is considered cheating, what about the several dozen theories of dodging the gobby bombs? Is THAT cheating?

What this really is is a difference of opinion. Until a GM or SE says otherwise, I'd feel free to fight howwever you want to!
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#24 Jan 28 2004 at 3:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Casting bind/root, debuff mob run speed, DoT, and walk away leisurely. (i.e. kiting) Tactic or exploit? Depends on which game you're playing.


Um, which game have you played that this is considered an exploit?

Quote:
NIN can go an entire battle with aggro, without getting hit once. Yet because this is (apparently) an Official Sanctioned Strategy, it is deemed not to be an exploit. OK.


You must have never seen a NIN actually tank before, have you? They do take hits, because 1) sometimes they take hits faster than their blink ability refresh, 2) sometimes they get interrupted using the ability, 3) sometimes they missed-time the casting of blink and it doesn't overwrite the old ability.

Quote:
Mage/RNG used to be able to dance in and out of the spellcasting range of IT worms, and solo them. (apparently they still can, but it's much more difficult) They could solo a mob that would decimate a FULL PARTY of characters their level, if fought "legitimately." This is not an exploit?


Obviously it was because they fixed it.

Quote:
Don't give me the whole "It is obviously considered exploitation" garbage, because they (the creators of various MMORPGs) can be totally arbitrary with what they consider an exploit. It's only an "exploit" because they say it is, nothing more.


LOL this is the point dumbass. It's what the developers say. If they say it's an exploit, it is, despite what you believe or whatever roleplaying story you came up with.

#25 Jan 28 2004 at 3:35 AM Rating: Decent
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As to tactics versus cheating I really doubt that the method of dodge hits because of bad AI is considered cheating. If it were really a big problem SE would've fixed it by now! Besides, if that is considered cheating, what about the several dozen theories of dodging the gobby bombs? Is THAT cheating?


They do fix pathing problems. Pathing are the most abundant errors in any MMORPGs, but like anything in life, there is a limited amount of time and resource. They can't snap their fingers and fix every single problem, just what are being exploited the most and deemed the more important. I can go to any zone and find pathing problems, and just because they're there, doesn't mean SE doesn't care about them and that they're open season.
#26 Jan 28 2004 at 4:22 AM Rating: Decent
i just read this entire forum and know absoluitly nothing new about rangers what the F^&k is up with that?
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#27 Jan 28 2004 at 6:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Simply put...

Anything is an exploit if it is advantageous beyond the desires of the designers *AND* the developers can't fix it before hundreds of people take advantage.

Pathing issues are a tricky thing. They've written their particular pathing algorithm and that's how its done. To change it may have unintentional effects all over this game's world.

So don't be surprised if using this tactic is labled "exploitation" if the designers don't like it and the developers can't fix it readily, as they may or may not have with worms.
#28 Jan 29 2004 at 3:16 AM Rating: Default
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Moralpanic wrote:

Quote:
Mage/RNG used to be able to dance in and out of the spellcasting range of IT worms, and solo them. (apparently they still can, but it's much more difficult) They could solo a mob that would decimate a FULL PARTY of characters their level, if fought "legitimately." This is not an exploit?


Obviously it was because they fixed it.

Moron: if your sole criteria for what is and is not an exploit is whether or not they have fixed it, then THERE WOULD BE NO WAY TO USE AN EXPLOIT. All the "exploits" would be fixed, by definition.

Like I said, worming was in the game for YEARS... and they just recently fixed it. Does that mean that it was an exploit the whole time? Prior to them fixing it, how could you possibly know that they would later consider it an exploit?

Your hindsight morality is a joke. Are we supposed to look into a crystal ball, determine what nerfs/fixes Squenix will enact in the future, and stop doing those things now? Please. Squenix might fix blink tanking a year from now, so I guess all NINs should stop "exploiting" the game immediately!

Do you have a personal hotline to the developers, so that you can quiz them on exactly what their thoughts are on How One Should Play The Game? If not, then please, just shut the f*ck up. If it's in the game, it's fair game until they take it out.

Edited, Thu Jan 29 03:22:30 2004 by redvenomweb
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#29 Jan 29 2004 at 6:36 AM Rating: Decent
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I dunno who started the ninjas blink tanking must be an exploit thing, but the costs of ninja powders required to do this just about equal the costs of the rangers ammo supply. A legit skill given to and expanded on by the developers that costs more than just about anything else in the game to maintain can hardly be classed with making a mob run 50 feet around a tree instead of walking directly towards you...
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#30 Jan 29 2004 at 7:13 AM Rating: Decent
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MistasiaMistique wrote:
A legit skill given to and expanded on by the developers that costs more than just about anything else in the game to maintain can hardly be classed with making a mob run 50 feet around a tree instead of walking directly towards you...

Earlier in this thread, a person posted about how they found something that they thought might be a pathing problem; they called a GM, and the GM told them that that particular pathing problem was, in fact, an Approved Tactic.

It's not so simple to say that one thing is certainly an exploit, but another is certainly not. The only black and white determination of exploits is whether or not Squenix says they are. The only way they can do so is if they fix it, or a GM tells you it's not allowed.

There is no way for players to guess at what the designers' intentions are. To even try to do so is pointless. I therefore prefer to assume that they know what they are doing, and if something's in the game, it's because they intended it to be. If it's not intended to be that way, they'll fix it.
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#31 Jan 31 2004 at 8:57 AM Rating: Decent
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A relevant note to this thread:

Reportedly, Square has stated in an interview for Famitsu magazine that they did not intend for the Ninja class to be a tank (it's not exactly a "ninja" characteristic, is it?).

The nerf bat is coming. When it hits, does that mean that all NIN/WARs were using exploits, and should be sent to jail?
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