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#52 Jul 07 2011 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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New content outside Abyssea Apoc rapes both emps. (+71acc is huge outside) Ukon is the games best DD weapon in any zone any time. Its more dramatic inside abyssea but its still king outside. Redemption is garbage, SE needs to fix it, bad WS, bad delay. Its not better the cata in abyssea and outside quiteus hits harder then cata but the rest of redemption/drk fails it. Cala is pretty great (for DRK) in abyssea but DRK/DRKs gear hurt it on the newer stuff. I didn't realize just how much of an acc loss there was going from apoc to any other DRK weapon and keeping haste capped until I just mathed it out.
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#53 Jul 08 2011 at 1:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, people tend to think that just because they can cap gear haste on DRK now, that the haste is useless. They're @#%^ing stupid. They act like that 26% in gear is welded to their asses. They're like raelix and just neglect tradeoffs altogether.

Cata is great damage and the best scythe WS on anything that isn't defensive to the point that ignore defense on Quietus would be a huge enough boost to overcome Cata's damage bonus.

On Ukon, It's not the best DD weapon in the game. It's just wielded by the job with the best tools in the game. Verethragna is the better weapon.
#54 Jul 08 2011 at 10:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Return1 wrote:


On Ukon, It's not the best DD weapon in the game. It's just wielded by the job with the best tools in the game. Verethragna is the better weapon.


Gonna beg to differ and play with multiple 90 ver and ukons everyday. The biggest difference is H2H/1hand emps don't benefit as much as 2hand emps from the ODD. WAR does require more support but once they have it they pwn everywhere. 5hit, 35+da, the strongest WS in the game are hard factors to compete with.
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#55 Jul 08 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Gonna beg to differ and play with multiple 90 ver and ukons everyday. The biggest difference is H2H/1hand emps don't benefit as much as 2hand emps from the ODD. WAR does require more support but once they have it they pwn everywhere. 5hit, 35+da, the strongest WS in the game are hard factors to compete with.


The main reason for that is that only the mainhand gets ODD, since offhands don't get the effect, but the Verethragna should be able to proc on both hands.

Even still, Ukon's DPS is 16.13, while Verethragna's is like ~28.67. Again, Victory Smite is actually stronger than Ukko's.

Ukko's Fury:
fTP: 2.0 (3.0)
WSC: STR60%

Victory Smite:
fTP: 2.25 (5.25, 6.25 if they didn't really fix hth offhand hit)
WSC: STR60%

The only reasons Ukko's seems stronger are Restraint, Blood Rage, and Crit Damage+ Trait/feet.


Ukon isn't the strongest weapon in the game, it's just the strongest weapon the strongest DD can use.
#56 Jul 08 2011 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
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2-handers rock a lot more base damage before WSC though. fTP alone is a horsesh*t comparsion.
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#57 Jul 08 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Default
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Yes they have higher base damage, but the high WSC and a massive fTP advantage makes VS the stronger WS, though not by as much as it would be if comparing similar Base Damages.

All I'm saying is if WAR had Martial Arts VII and A+ in hth and Gaxe, they'd be at their best with Verethragna.

Edited, Jul 8th 2011 6:16pm by Return1
#58 Jul 08 2011 at 5:03 PM Rating: Good
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Return1 wrote:
[quote]
Ukon isn't the strongest weapon in the game, it's just the strongest weapon the strongest DD can use.


Yeah I'll roll with that. Just like Drakes and SP are beast on paper.

But at the end of the day a Ukon WAR is the top DD. Agreed its the weapon,the gear, the JAs, the traits and the ODD.
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#59 Jul 09 2011 at 1:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
2-handers rock a lot more base damage before WSC though. fTP alone is a horsesh*t comparsion.


is that even still true? before they actually raised the level cap, i was hypothesizing that MNK would be pretty broken due to how h2h skill determines base damage. i admit i haven't really kept up on it, but i haven't heard of h2h skill tapering off or the equation changing, so...
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#60 Jul 09 2011 at 8:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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milich wrote:
Raelix wrote:
2-handers rock a lot more base damage before WSC though. fTP alone is a horsesh*t comparsion.


is that even still true? before they actually raised the level cap, i was hypothesizing that MNK would be pretty broken due to how h2h skill determines base damage. i admit i haven't really kept up on it, but i haven't heard of h2h skill tapering off or the equation changing, so...


It doesn't taper off. MNK H2H is like rocking 2 70+damage axes. They still suffer from low fTP because rank is based off the weapon displayed damage.
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#61 Jul 09 2011 at 10:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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I believe it's something like 70+ Dmg blunt dagger cause their delay is like 300-350 for 2 swings (150-170 each) not counting haste.

War IS pretty broken atm not just because their weapon and such but because of retaliation. Most NMs attack really fast and it causes the War to retaliate those attacks and make the War gets TP so fast that you can pretty much skip the whole x-hit built, store TP and all other jazz and go straight for WS back-to-back. Even without Ukko, a War with Raging Rush can still throw out high damage WS compare to other DD.

Edited, Jul 9th 2011 12:19pm by Oddwaffle
#62 Jul 09 2011 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
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It kinda shows the state DRK is in when a thread about DRKs on the DRK board slowly turns into which is better, MNK or WAR. :/
#63 Jul 09 2011 at 8:19 PM Rating: Decent
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DRK had always played 4th or 5th fiddle to other DDs, RR just put us even further down.

Before abyssea and the LR change, DRK was a WAR with a piss poor Berserk and Stun, wouldn't keep up with MNK, couldn't DD as well as SAM, and got plastered by DRG. Back in the day, DRK was nothing without Apoc.

And yes, Apoc is still amazingly powerful today, being the best weapon DRK can use.

#64 Jul 09 2011 at 10:49 PM Rating: Good
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drk sux
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#65 Jul 09 2011 at 11:16 PM Rating: Decent
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lol, i've nothing constructive to add here.
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#66 Jul 10 2011 at 12:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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in other news...

were burning down some more apademaks today, haven't been on much in the last month, so i still had 40ish to do. i'm on nin, my wife's on her ver. mnk, we have a ukon war, a whm, my wife is 2boxing a whm mule, and have two blms for stun.

except one blm was brand new/burned to 90 and had no clue how to stun/what we were talking about even after we gave her really simple instructions on stun order and how important it was to do this right and NOT @#%^ it up, and the other blm was, well, his usual self. after loosing/wiping twice, i said '@#%^ this' and warped home, got on drk. problem solved.

tl,dr: people suck and are terrible at ff, even when they have all the mechanical advantage the game allows. you can still be useful on drk even if you're not the best tool for the job.
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#67 Jul 11 2011 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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Stun is a hell of tool.......in the right hands.
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#68 Jul 11 2011 at 7:39 PM Rating: Decent
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TaintCerberus wrote:
New content outside Abyssea Apoc rapes both emps. (+71acc is huge outside) Ukon is the games best DD weapon in any zone any time. Its more dramatic inside abyssea but its still king outside. Redemption is garbage, SE needs to fix it, bad WS, bad delay. Its not better the cata in abyssea and outside quiteus hits harder then cata but the rest of redemption/drk fails it. Cala is pretty great (for DRK) in abyssea but DRK/DRKs gear hurt it on the newer stuff. I didn't realize just how much of an acc loss there was going from apoc to any other DRK weapon and keeping haste capped until I just mathed it out.


Kinda confused here. The Occ. 2x damage alone makes Redemption better than Apoc. The main draw of Apoc has always been the haste/drain....and haste has a cap which is far easier to hit than before.

Yes you could swap out a few pieces for more ACC/Attack/DA/whatever but not enough to offset the fact that Redemption will be doing 2x more damage about 30% of the time, with the same haste you have. Also I've never seen Catastrophe do anywhere near Quietus numbers, even after the update. I'm not saying you're lying, but I'd like to see what you consider typical Catastrophe damage if you have pics.

The drain effect is definitely still nice though.
#69 Jul 11 2011 at 8:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Hexagram wrote:
Kinda confused here. The Occ. 2x damage alone makes Redemption better than Apoc. The main draw of Apoc has always been the haste/drain....and haste has a cap which is far easier to hit than before.

Not really. ~16-20% more total damage from ODD does not offset having a substantially weaker and less useful WS, more difficult hitbuild, lack of the 'stack it all' option with Haste Aftermath (dunno if or why not to wear full +2 set with Apoc AM up), inferior base damage, and no free relic ODD procs, and 35 less +Acc when it matters.

Empy ODD is NOT double damage 40% of the time. It's double damage 40% of <50% of the time, because it's only on TP phase. ODD is laughably overrated much of the time, though a nice bonus. Hell, the +35 Acc alone on Apoc beats ODD if being utilized.

Protip: Catastrophe is bumped to a 4.0 fTP with lv90 version. This could be incorrect, it could be just the +25% I've seen most elsewhere, but even the latter puts it on par with Quietus at worst. Stop while you're ahead.

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 7:14pm by Raelix
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#70 Jul 11 2011 at 8:21 PM Rating: Decent
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not often you see this, but ^
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#71 Jul 11 2011 at 8:23 PM Rating: Default
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Raelix wrote:
Not really. ~16-20% more total damage from ODD does not offset having a substantially weaker and less useful WS, more difficult hitbuild, lack of the 'stack it all' option with Haste Aftermath (dunno if or why not to wear full +2 set with Apoc AM up), inferior base damage, and no free relic ODD procs, and 35 less +Acc when it matters.

Empy ODD is NOT double damage 40% of the time. It's double damage 40% of <50% of the time, because it's only on TP phase. ODD is laughably overrated much of the time, though a nice bonus.

Protip: Catastrophe is bumped to a 4.0 fTP with lv90 version. Stop while you're ahead.

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 7:09pm by Raelix


That's all fine and well but this is literally the only place I've heard saying Apoc is a decent weapon, let alone better than Empyreans. In game, on any other board, BG, where ever. Also like I said, I've never personally see Catastrophe do anywhere near the damage of Quietus.

And uh....doing 2x more damage is laughably over rated? Again, this is the type of comment I only see on this board.

And for the record the WS numbers listed for 90 Apoc are less than my Penitence +2 with Quietus. Also there is some confusion as to it having a 4.0 fTP considering BG came up with different numbers:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=6&mid=1295978001321128345&howmany=50

Ironically some of the people arguing with me in this thread were saying the exact same thing I am, in that thread.



Edited, Jul 11th 2011 9:33pm by Hexagram
#72 Jul 11 2011 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Another additional wtf at "+35 ACC beats Occ. 2x damage". ACC has a cap. It's not hard to hit without the +ACC on a relic. I have no idea what you're fighting that would warrant that much more ACC, to the point it would offset Occ. 2x damage.
#73 Jul 11 2011 at 8:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Hexagram needs to just go back and read everything carefully at this point.

Getting double damage on a portion of a portion of your damage means the total output is really low. It's about like how Crit Attack Bonus was an insignificant buff for DRK since it's only a portion, crits, of a portion, TP phase with no crit WS, of our damage.

Remember the other thread where I postulated that adding +25 accuracy to just barely reach accuracy cap is ~16% more total damage and ODD comes out to about 16% more damage? That. In the very same thread we showed that the +35 accuracy was definitely in effect on Voidwatch NMs.

You need to be much more careful around me. I'm one of those rare people that actually knows what the f*ck they're talking about, rather than one of these parrot-along feebs in 'other forums', and even though I'll foam at the mouth over something I state to be just an opinion in the end when it comes to cold facts, theorycraft, and napkin math I hit like a freight train. ODD is a bit of a sick joke in terms of what people think it does versus what it actually comes out to, especially for dual-wielding jobs. It is the ultimate BNS trap.

I'm not saying ODD is a bad thing, I'm just pointing out that it is in no way making a sh*t weapon like Redemption beat out a vastly buffed 90 Apoc, especially if you're one of the dozens of Redemption DRKs I see still stuck at lv85 version.

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 7:45pm by Raelix
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#74 Jul 11 2011 at 8:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
Hexagram needs to just go back and read everything carefully at this point.

Getting double damage on a portion of a portion of your damage means the total output is really low. It's about like how Crit Attack Bonus was an insignificant buff for DRK since it's only a portion, crits, of a portion, TP phase with no crit WS, of our damage.

Remember the other thread where I postulated that adding +25 accuracy to just barely reach accuracy cap is ~16% more total damage and ODD comes out to about 16% more damage? That. In the very same thread we showed that the +35 accuracy was definitely in effect on Voidwatch NMs.

You need to be much more careful around me. I'm one of those rare people that actually knows what the f*ck they're talking about, rather than one of these parrot-along feebs in 'other forums'. ODD is a bit of a sick joke in terms of what people think it does versus what it actually comes out to, especially for dual-wielding jobs. It is the ultimate BNS trap.


You don't know what you're talking about, actually. You rattled off the 4.0 fTP comment which was wrong, then had to edit what you said. Hell, people told you that it was wrong in that thread 6 months ago and you still mentioned it again, today.

And you were proven wrong by BG....another forum. So no, sorry I can't dismiss what other forums say.

A portion of a portion? What are you even talking about? It's about 30%, 2x damage. Period. You WS, you get the Aftermath. Yes the Crit Damage buff for us was small because outside of certain Atmas inside Abyssea we don't crit often enough for it to mattter in the grand scheme of things....similar to WAR's +2 set bonus which is 2x damage on a DA proc. I'm not seeing how these relate to a flat 30% proc of 2x damage though.
#75 Jul 11 2011 at 8:53 PM Rating: Decent
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You heard it here folks. ODD can proc on WS, the other 60% of our damage!
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#76 Jul 11 2011 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
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And wtf at "Redemption is a sh*t weapon, Apoc is vastly buffed"....uh, what? At face value they're virtually the same weapon.

Apocalypse....
DMG: 140
Delay: 513
ACC+35

Redemption....
DMG: 136
Delay: 502
STR+10 MND+10

Outside of the slight difference in delay I'm not seeing a game-breaking difference between the two. 4 base damage vs a free 10 STR? Additional Effect: Blind? What is it?
#77 Jul 11 2011 at 9:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
You heard it here folks. ODD can proc on WS, the other 60% of our damage!


I never said that. Stop deflecting.

You have WS damage, and melee damage. Your melee will do 2x more about 30% of the time.

For WS Quietus, as far as I've seen, sh*ts all over Catastrophe.

So from what angle does Apoc shine? Haste?

Drain I will give you.

There is no "portion of a portion". You melee, and WS. Hell, you melee to WS. It's not as if it's something out of the ordinary.

Even using your bizarre logic, which is better? 30% chance to do 2x damage...or not having that?

I dunno where you pulled 60% from, either.
#78 Jul 11 2011 at 9:20 PM Rating: Decent
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That slight difference in delay is the difference between looking either like a tryhard in Zelus Tiara and Askar/Aurum Body to 5-hit or looking like a moron with your 6-hit versus capped haste 5-hit with full +2 set bonus active and easily 50 more attack and accuracy.

Delay is Redemption's largest flaw.

You don't appear to understand the underlying mechanics, instead you judge these weapons by apparent value.

Let's start with the basics:

  • +35 Accuracy > +10 STR any day of the week. If you don't understand this, go back to WoW. If you're in a situation where this isn't a factor, Quietus loses at least 10% of its WS damage because Attack will be capped too.
  • We are not WAR, we don't get the 'Double Attack makes hitbuild meaningless' excuse. 5-hit will rape 6-hit.
  • They are actually in the same WRank, but per your overblowing of +10 STR, 4 base damage is 'equal' to +16 STR.

  • So Apoc is already better at first glance. Let's see about your terribad misunderstanding of ODD:

    I wasn't deflecting, I was just trying to be more polite than calling you a f*cking retard.

    ODD works on 40% of your melee hits, I don't know where you're getting 30% but that would only serve to reinforce my point so I'll stick with the value I'm familiar with. Follow this: 40% refers to ODD affecting a hit 40% of the time. ODD has a proc rate, it isn't automatic Double Melee Damage when Aftermath is active, it's a chance of Double Damage.

    Now let's square away another bonehead simple mechanic for you: Suppose you do 10 hits for 1 damage. Now 40% of those hits do 2 damage instead. You now do 14 damage instead of 10 damage. 40% ODD = 40% more damage if all damage is eligible.

    Now lets look carefully: How much of your total damage is Melee hits and how much is WS? I have Penitence +2 and had a nice blowout with it /SAM just a week or two ago, and as this was on Bluffalo Quietus's Ignores Defense effect was surely in play as well. 37k Melee damage to 66k WS daamge.

    So 36% Melee damage, 64% WS damage.

    This was 5-hit, so barring a Redemption usually only swinging a 6-hit and having a much less extreme TP:WS split, if you were to apply 40% ODD to my Melee damage, because only the Melee damage is eligible for ODD proc, you get the following:

    0.40 * 0.36 = 14.4%

    In the total scheme of damage, 40% ODD added to my Melee damage as parsed would only be a 14.4% total increase in damage.

    Do you follow now? 40% ODD on melee only is never 40% more damage because WSing is, or should be, the much greater portion of total damage. 14.4% is a low estimate, I give Redemption the classic 40/60 split of the 6-hit era for such to come out to ~16% more damage in speculation.

    ODD does not outweigh Apoc's advantages by any stretch of the imagination.



    Edited, Jul 11th 2011 8:21pm by Raelix
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    #79 Jul 11 2011 at 9:32 PM Rating: Decent
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    Thanks for the tip Hex, found this:

    Quote:
    100% = 30 seconds and 30% ODD rate
    200% = 60 seconds and 40% ODD rate (this needs to be verified still)
    300% = 90 seconds and 50% ODD rate


    300% testing was half a page back or so. 200% value was obviously extrapolated.

    So ODD is even less valuable. ~12% if you still care to weigh it against Apoc.

    Side Question: Does TP Bonus affect Aftermath level? This is relevant for both knowing where the original 40% value came from as well as Mythic weapon applications. Only needing 175TP for OAT Aftermath = Hell yeah.

    It doesn't. Go figure that was just five or six posts further down. Hivemind.

    Edited, Jul 11th 2011 9:19pm by Raelix
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    #80 Jul 12 2011 at 12:03 AM Rating: Decent
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    You could get a rough estimation of Quietus and Catastrophe's damage comparison by treating the 1.25 damage bonus on catastrophe as an fTP boost.

    Quietus:
    fTP: 3.0 (3.2)
    WSC: STR40% MND40%

    Catastrophe:
    fTP: 3.4375 (3.6875)
    WSC: INT40% AGI40%


    The oldest argument against Catastrophe was the WSC mods sucked, but now we have the gear to make the "crappier" WSC mods not so bad.

    Good Catastrophe set:
    Apocalypse
    Pole grip
    Bomb core
    Twilight Helm
    Brutal Earring
    Bale Earring (can go with +3stat earring if you're capped on fSTR and high in pDIF)
    Twilight Mail
    Bale Gauntlets +2 (Abyss if high pDIF)
    Snow Ring
    Snow Ring (Possible to use STP rings instead)
    Atheling Mantle
    Soil Belt
    Bale Flanchard +2 (could use jet or something situationally)
    Bale Sollerets +2

    That is not a bad WS set at all.


    On anything where ATK/ACC matters Apoc has a huge advantage. Requiring less haste from gear and slightly less STP means more ACC/ATK/STR gear.
    #81 Jul 12 2011 at 12:07 AM Rating: Decent
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    alla being the only place where people actually bother with math isn't that uncommon. i wouldn't be surprised if most of the reliable players that used to post on BG have quit.

    edit: p.s. one of the last arguments i had with BG regulars was their skepticism at the possibility of modeling damage (or calling all theorycrafting in the past not a "serious" attempt at modeling damage), despite the success we've had predicting parses for years.

    (and of course we had success; we got the math from backward engineering after all)

    Edited, Jul 12th 2011 2:09am by milich
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    #82 Jul 12 2011 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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    Return1 wrote:
    The oldest argument against Catastrophe was the WSC mods sucked, but now we have the gear to make the "crappier" WSC mods not so bad.

    If Quietus was STR/INT that argument could probably be made, but STR/MND might as well be just STR.

    milich wrote:
    alla being the only place where people actually bother with math isn't that uncommon. i wouldn't be surprised if most of the reliable players that used to post on BG have quit.

    (and of course we had success; we got the math from backward engineering after all)

    A lot of BG skepticism comes from about two or three people over there spending a year gathering a f*ckton of data and spitting out these nine mile long regressed equations that are functionally worthless. They then swear up and down that their method is more 'accurate' than my simple rearranging of Ratio capping before cRatio and 1.00-1.05 randomizer which has never failed to match their numbers except where I pointed out they were 1 fSTR off. I think this last incident just put them totally in the self-bias zone.

    So because these few guys over there can't get their sh*t nailed down to simpleness, and BG is entirely too high-and-mighty to allow such simple changes to explain everything that went wrong with the old formulas when the 2-hander update rolled out, they've just taken to disavowing math all together.

    At least Kirschy picked it up. I feel proud to have had her use my system and say 'Yeah, this is dead on'.
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    #83 Jul 12 2011 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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    Where Redemption shines Apoc shines more.

    Apoc haste build holds atleast 70 more acc then any other weapons haste build. Even with pizza and (dare I say it) DE up you are still behind in acc.

    Af3 set bonus sucks, apoc AM is built around a 5hit and then da/ta.

    The cata buff is a straight 25% multiplier. If it was going to do 1000 now it does 1250.

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    #84 Jul 12 2011 at 11:16 PM Rating: Good
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    Quote:
    If Quietus was STR/INT that argument could probably be made, but STR/MND might as well be just STR.


    Wtf kinda logic is that? Sure MND isn't DRK's strong suit, but STR/MND is pretty damn easy to gear for instread of INT/AGI.


    Quote:
    Af3 set bonus sucks, apoc AM is built around a 5hit and then da/ta.


    It's true the bonus sucks, but it's not the worst thing in the world. I don't see many things I'd rather wear than the full set while rocking my 5hit build. Some Synergy augmented sh*t maybe. The helm and hands are pretty much glued on for tping. Could go for Calmacac I guess.


    Quote:
    The cata buff is a straight 25% multiplier. If it was going to do 1000 now it does 1250.


    I love the 25% damage bonus tacked onto the end instead of to fTP as it boosts the extra attacks as well.


    I wish SE would make all physical WSes able to crit, it's pure @#%^ing retardation that they can't.
    #85 Jul 13 2011 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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    Return1 wrote:



    Quote:
    Af3 set bonus sucks, apoc AM is built around a 5hit and then da/ta.


    It's true the bonus sucks, but it's not the worst thing in the world. I don't see many things I'd rather wear than the full set while rocking my 5hit build. Some Synergy augmented sh*t maybe. The helm and hands are pretty much glued on for tping. Could go for Calmacac I guess.




    That doesn't make sense you can't wear 5/5 af3 and keep a 5hit. Unless you are WSing in some messed up gear.
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    #86 Jul 13 2011 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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    Well, atm I don't have a rose strap, which is shocking to me as I thought I'd be rabking up into it and found out I lost my medal thanks to campaign buff.


    TP:
    15 /SAM
    6 Carbonara
    4 Rose Strap
    2 White Tathlum
    1 Brutal Earring
    4 Hoard Ring
    5 Rajas Ring
    6 Tactical Mantle
    5 Goading Belt

    13.9 *1.48 = 20.5 (20.572)
    20.5 *4 = 82

    With that all that's needed to WS in to maintain 5 hit is a Rajas (and rose strap but you obviously aren't swapping it for WSes.).


    I'm planning on playing around with Fourth Mantle and Moonshade Earring when I get it as well. Really want to get rid of the need for that sh*tty mantle.
    #87 Jul 13 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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    Using Carb over RCB isn't worth the terrible set proc.

    Gilgamesh kills a Taru everytime someone chooses a regain moonshade. Its not good and its not reliable.
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    #88 Jul 13 2011 at 3:59 PM Rating: Decent
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    Quote:
    Using Carb over RCB isn't worth the terrible set proc.

    Gilgamesh kills a Taru everytime someone chooses a regain moonshade. Its not good and its not reliable.


    First off, that statement is false for most things in the game atm, since you can cap atk easily with Carb on most mobs. Also, you could just use arabiatta and WS with 33 stp.

    Second, what's wrong with Regain Moonshade? How is it unreliable? As long as you're engaged, the regain is in effect.
    #89 Jul 13 2011 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
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    Return1 wrote:
    Quote:
    Using Carb over RCB isn't worth the terrible set proc.

    Gilgamesh kills a Taru everytime someone chooses a regain moonshade. Its not good and its not reliable.


    First off, that statement is false for most things in the game atm, since you can cap atk easily with Carb on most mobs. Also, you could just use arabiatta and WS with 33 stp.

    Second, what's wrong with Regain Moonshade? How is it unreliable? As long as you're engaged, the regain is in effect.



    You might cap attack on XP mobs but even Abyssea NMs benefit from the extra attack. Take that outside (where DRK is useful) and RCB crushes Carbonara.

    3min with a DPS calc will confirm this.

    Regain is 1tp/tic or every 3 seconds. You average WS round will net you 2-3 tics when buffed 6-7 unbuffed, you'll find yourself at 97-102 tp after your hits, hardly worth gearing for. You also wont have a refresh earring as a mage or a TPbonus earring for your WS sets. Regain earring isnt a good choice spread the word.

    I also spent the last hour playing with Apoc builds and under very few situations was a 5hit worth the DA/TA/att loss. Which changes this discussion up a bit.
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    #90 Jul 13 2011 at 5:14 PM Rating: Decent
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    Relevant discussion here.

    I highly disbelieve that DRK isn't capping attack on anything in Abyssea (A lot of things have straight-up damage reduction). Outside we don't have exact figures for defense of things like Voidwatch mobs, but any 'old' content is going to be easy as piss to cap attack on.

    It is in my self-aggrandizing opinion that Taint vastly underestimates what reaching a 5-hit achieves and/or is terribly miscalculating it. I doubt he actually spent that 'three minutes with a DPS calc' to check.
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    #91 Jul 14 2011 at 12:44 AM Rating: Decent
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    Quote:
    You might cap attack on XP mobs but even Abyssea NMs benefit from the extra attack. Take that outside (where DRK is useful) and RCB crushes Carbonara.


    Most of the mobs in abyssea only look like you're not capping attack since they either have level correction and an unknown level or physical damage reduction. The only things outside where that's going to be a really big deal is VW and some Dynamis NMs. Even still, there's arabiatta. Dragon meat is common as hell now, so it's not as big a deal.

    Quote:
    Regain is 1tp/tic or every 3 seconds. You average WS round will net you 2-3 tics when buffed 6-7 unbuffed, you'll find yourself at 97-102 tp after your hits, hardly worth gearing for. You also wont have a refresh earring as a mage or a TPbonus earring for your WS sets. Regain earring isnt a good choice spread the word.


    Well, if it's going to give you at least 2 ticks, that's all that's needed to make a 5 hit with 44stp, meaning tactical can be dropped. While I am excited at the thought of a new Refresh earring for my BLM, thanks to VW needing some support, Refresh jobs are making a comeback. There's also the proliferation of Refresh gear on top of those jobs' advanced refresh abilities, this means that 1 refresh tick isn't that big a deal since you often have more refresh outside abyssea than inside.

    With just a BRD and WHM/RDM, you have 17mp per tick with relatively easy gear to obtain.

    Wtf am I going to use TP bonus for? It's pretty useless for Catstrophe or Herculean Slash, which are the only 2 WSes I use.
    #92 Jul 14 2011 at 1:16 AM Rating: Good
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    curiosity question for the still-players:

    since you can get TP bonus on sh*t other than weapons now, does that affect mythic aftermath? does no one know because mythic sucks?
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    #93 Jul 14 2011 at 1:20 AM Rating: Good
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    Raelix wrote:
    Side Question: Does TP Bonus affect Aftermath level? This is relevant for both knowing where the original 40% value came from as well as Mythic weapon applications. Only needing 175TP for OAT Aftermath = Hell yeah.

    It doesn't. Go figure that was just five or six posts further down. Hivemind.
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    #94 Jul 14 2011 at 10:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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    what the @#%^? i don't remember those posts being there. anyway, thanks(:.
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    #95 Jul 14 2011 at 10:42 AM Rating: Good
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    milich wrote:
    what the @#%^? i don't remember those posts being there. anyway, thanks(:.
    Somebody's been drinking~

    Edited, Jul 14th 2011 12:44pm by Lucinus
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    #96 Jul 14 2011 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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    Raelix wrote:
    Relevant discussion here.

    I highly disbelieve that DRK isn't capping attack on anything in Abyssea (A lot of things have straight-up damage reduction). Outside we don't have exact figures for defense of things like Voidwatch mobs, but any 'old' content is going to be easy as piss to cap attack on.

    It is in my self-aggrandizing opinion that Taint vastly underestimates what reaching a 5-hit achieves and/or is terribly miscalculating it. I doubt he actually spent that 'three minutes with a DPS calc' to check.



    Lvl 97 mob 420 def, 407 eva, dia 2, 91 vit, 92 agi (very basic xp mob)

    My 6hit 284.62 dps with rcb
    283.125 dps with carb

    In Abyssea with VV,RR,apoc

    517.30 dps both foods (capped att)

    101 lvl, 560 def, 430 eva, 110 vit, 100 agi basic emp material NM

    Outside
    190.788 rcb
    169.01 carb

    Inside
    404.39 rcb
    370.06 carb

    Att isn't capped on NMs inside and def not outside, all dps assume LR up (5/5) effect and endark



    At work but I can post 5hit vs 6hit later.
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    #97 Jul 14 2011 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
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    I'd like to know how exactly you came up with the numbers for these "basic" mobs you're talking about.
    #98 Jul 14 2011 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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    And he proved nothing because he just compared two foods and fairly well confirmed my unposted estimate of a 10-12% change in attack.

    So aside from pulling numbers out of his ass, since you and I agree that most NMs in Abyssea have straight damage reduction, now I can speculate against that fairly easily:

    2.75 * 1.25 = 3.4375

    I'll use +0% and +45.4% on WS to speculate a range of gearing differences between TP and WS.

    3.4375 ~ 5.0

    6hit, 100 rounds
    100 hits, 20 WS
    168.75 ~ 200

    5hit, 100 rounds
    100 hits, 25 WS
    185.94 ~ 225

    So if you pretty much WS in your TP set or worse, so your base damage is equal to your TP Phase which would be pathetic, you still pull 10.1% more damage which negates the loss from not eating RCB.

    WS in proper gear, pulling up to 50% more base damage from WSC:

    163 capped fSTR (worst case) means you need 81.5 from WSC to add 50% more base damage to WS. This is pretty much base stats and twilight helm and mail.

    So simply by having a decent WS set, 5-hitting gets you 13% more damage.

    So even in the worst possible situation, uncapped attack, 5-hitting with Carb matches RCB. Get a Chaos Roll and it crushes it.

    tl;dr 5-hitting is a buff you can't get from a BRD or COR.
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    #99 Jul 14 2011 at 6:51 PM Rating: Good
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    Gear for 6 hit 
     
    Melee (Set 1)	 
    Slot	Gear 
    Weapon	Apocalypse (90) 
    Grip	Sword Strap 
    Ammo	Bomb Core 
    Head	Bale +2 
    Neck	Bale 
    Earring	Brutal 
    Earring	Bale 
    Body	Valkyrie's Breastplate (ta2) 
    Hands	Bale +2 
    Ring	Rajas 
    Ring	Mars's 
    Back	Atheling 
    Waist	Goading 
    Legs	Bale +2 
    Feet	Jingang 
     
     
    Gear for 5 hit 
     
    Melee (Set 2)	 
    Slot	Gear 
    Weapon	Apocalypse (90) 
    Grip	Rose Grip 
    Ammo	White Tathlum 
    Head	Bale +2 
    Neck	Bale 
    Earring	Brutal 
    Earring	Bale 
    Body	Armada Hauberk (stp5 da2) 
    Hands	Bale +2 
    Ring	Rajas 
    Ring	Hoard 
    Back	Tactical 
    Waist	Goading 
    Legs	Bale +2 
    Feet	Ace's Leggings 
     
    WS - used same for both, grips were ofcourse locked.	 
    Slot	Gear 
    Weapon	Apocalypse (90) 
    Grip	Rose Grip/Sword Strap 
    Ammo	Bomb Core 
    Head	Twilight 
    Neck	Gorget 
    Earring	Brutal 
    Earring	Bale 
    Body	Twilight 
    Hands	Abyss Gauntlets 
    Ring	Rajas 
    Ring	Spiral 
    Back	Atheling 
    Waist	Ele.Belt 
    Legs	Bale +2 
    Feet	Bale +2 
     
     
    Option	Set 1	Set 2 
    		 
    Abyssea		 
    In Abyssea?	1	1 
    Cruor Buff Value	70	70 
    Atma1	Razed Ruin	Razed Ruin 
    Atma2	S. Scythe	V. Violet 
    Atma3	Apocolypse	Apocolypse 
    		 
    Buffs		 
    Last Resort	1	1 
    Haste	1	1 
    March 1	0	0 
    March 2	0	0 
    Hasso	0	0 
    Haste Samba (5% if /dnc)	0	0 
    		 
    Endark	1	1 
    Endark Recast @ dmg rem.	16	16 
     
    Data Set 
     
    Stat	TPSet1	TPSet2	WSSet1	WSSet2 
    Skill	384	384	377	377 
    Att	452	452	445	445 
    Acc	365	365	359	359 
    Str	222	263	233	283 
    Dex	206	217	233	233 
    Agi	136	140	140	140 
    Vit	170	154	184	184 
    Int	138	142	165	165 
    Mnd	138	142	151	151 
    Gear HP	0	15	0	0 
    Gear HPP	0%	0%	0%	0% 
    Total HP	2663	2678	2663	2663 
    Endark Recast #	16	16	16	16 
    Endark Att	37	37	37	37 
    Base Att	762	736	736	774 
    Base Acc	601	607	628	628 
    Food Att	150	150	150	150 
    Food Acc	0	0	0	0 
    Chaos	0	0	0	0 
    Stalwart's (att)	0	0	0	0 
    Berserk	0	0	0	0 
    Last Resort	187	181	181	190 
    Stalwart's (acc)	0	0	0	0 
    Aggressor	0	0	0	0 
    Att	1099	1067	1067	1114 
    Acc	601	607	628	628 
    DA	13%	15%	8%	13% 
    TA	17%	15%	15%	15% 
    DW	0%	0%	0%	0% 
    Delay per Weap	497	513	497	513 
    Base TP/Hit	13.5	13.9	13.5	13.9 
    Store TP	30	52	25	25 
    TP/Hit	17.5	21.1	16.8	17.3 
    Dex Crit	20%	20%	20%	20% 
    C.Rate	55%	55%	55%	55% 
    C.Dmg	165%	135%	165%	135% 
    Raw Hit Rate	138.5%	141.5%	152.0%	152.0% 
    Hit Rate	95.0%	95.0%	95.0%	95.0% 
    cRatio	1.6306	1.5671	1.5671	1.6603 
    fStr1	23	23	23	23 
    fStr2	0	0	0	0 
    W1 Dmg	163	163	163	163 
    W2 Dmg	0	0	0	0 
    Souleater	None	None	None	None 
    Enhance SE	0%	0%	0%	0% 
    Souleater %	10%	10%	10%	10% 
    HP %	85%	85%	90%	90% 
    SE Dmg/Hit	0	0	0	0 
    Stat	TP Set 1	TP Set 2	WS Set 1	WS Set 2 
    Melee				 
    Hits/Rnd W1	1.384	1.365		 
    Hits/Rnd W2	0.000	0.000		 
    Emp Set Bonus	1%	1%		 
    Avg W1	513.298	429.460		 
    AE W1	37.00	37.00		 
    Avg W2	0.000	0.000		 
    AE W2	0.00	0.00		 
    Avg Rnd	761.657	636.580		 
    Magic Haste	15%	15%		 
    JA Haste	24%	24%		 
    Catastrophe Haste	10%	10%		 
    Gear Haste	25%	25%		 
    Total Haste	64%	64%		 
    Nom. Delay	178.6	184.4		 
    Min Delay	102.6	102.6		 
    Delay/Round	178.6	184.4		 
    Category DPS	255.862	207.176		 
    Weaponskill				 
    WS Main Dmg			163	163 
    WS Off Dmg			0	0 
    +fTP Gear			0.2	0.2 
    TP Bonus			0	0 
    WS Mult			100%	100% 
    Regain Rate			0	2 
    Regain Amt			0	6 
    WS Dmg			1809	1934 
    Base TP Rnds			4.44	3.75 
    Base TP Time			913.416	810.674 
    Total Damage			5192.336	4319.241 
    Total DPS			341.071	319.678 
    


    Check my math, its dead on. I'll run a few diff scenarios next.


    Edited, Jul 15th 2011 8:10am by TaintCerberus
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    #100 Jul 14 2011 at 7:06 PM Rating: Good
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    The [pre ] [/ pre] tags can make information like that more readable.
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    #101 Jul 14 2011 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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    Same thing outside Abyssea


    Results Set 1 Set 2
    Melee damage per round 313 270
    Melee DPS 104.991 87.846

    Rounds/WS 5.21 4.42
    WS Dmg 1228 1228

    Total Cycle Damage 2855 2420
    Total Cycle Time 1050 934

    Total DPS 163.171 155.414


    Same thing outside with capped delay

    Results Set 1 Set 2
    Melee damage per round 313 270
    Melee DPS 182.771 157.848

    Rounds/WS 5.21 4.42
    WS Dmg 1228 1228

    Total Cycle Damage 2855 2420
    Total Cycle Time 654 573

    Total DPS 261.877 253.334


    Inside Abyssea capped Delay

    Results Set 1 Set 2
    Melee damage per round 762 637
    Melee DPS 445.413 372.269

    Rounds/WS 4.44 3.75
    WS Dmg 1809 1934

    Total Cycle Damage 5192 4319
    Total Cycle Time 576 504

    Total DPS 541.086 513.813


    Outside Abyssea Capped delay swapping Tactical>Atheling for RCB>Carbonara on an XP mob

    Results Set 1 Set 2
    Melee damage per round 394 377
    Melee DPS 230.413 220.564

    Rounds/WS 5.15 4.34
    WS Dmg 1653 1653

    Total Cycle Damage 3681 3289
    Total Cycle Time 648 565

    Total DPS 340.801 349.298

    Same on a NM (101) lvl

    Results Set 1 Set 2
    Melee damage per round 281 262
    Melee DPS 164.367 153.010

    Rounds/WS 5.21 4.34
    WS Dmg 1074 1074

    Total Cycle Damage 2537 2208
    Total Cycle Time 654 565

    Total DPS 232.702 234.544


    6hit RCB 97 mob

    Set 1
    396
    174.489

    5.15
    1661

    3701
    821

    270.323

    5hit Carb (atheling)

    Set 2
    377
    166.072

    4.34
    1653

    3289
    711

    277.568

    Same Lvl 101 mob

    Set 1
    313
    137.616

    5.21
    1228

    2855
    829

    206.539

    Set 2
    262
    115.208

    4.34
    1074

    2208
    711

    186.379


    Any other combo you want ran? 5hit wins sometimes, 2sec WS delay is a bitch. Esp as you get into the inner portions of dynamis or VW the att from a RCB goes a long way. Even Abyssea NMs you can benefit from the attack, esp in Heros zones. (but who would take a DRK into Abyssea with any real goal in mind?)








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