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3 questions for DarkknightsFollow

#1 Jul 06 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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hello im thinking of being a darkknight and i have a few questions i would like to ask so i have a better idea of what im getting into before i spend alot of time and money on the job. i like the idea of being able to use spells too but are the spells even worth using? also could somebody tell me stuff like the highs and lows about being a DRK and last how good of a DD is DRK can they do more damage then DRG SAM?

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 3:13pm by x1Raziel
#2 Jul 06 2011 at 12:39 PM Rating: Decent
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x1Raziel wrote:
Hello, I'm thinking of being a DRK and I have a few questions I would like to ask to have a better idea of what I'm getting into before I spend a lot of time and money on the job. I like the idea of being able to use spells and melee, but are the spells even worth using? What are the pros and cons about being a DRK? and lastly, how good of a DD is DRK? can the job do more damage than DRG or SAM?
Inside Abyssea, WHM would be a better DD than DRK. Outside, DRK is one of the top DDs, but results will vary greatly with your performance as with any job.

If you are trying to pick the top DD job, then avoid DRK. Not because it's a sh*tty DD, but because it's not a job you can just pick up and crush everyone else. SAM is an easier job as it does not require much work/effort/attention to instantly be a decent DD. Of course, the game is already at its limit of pink galka MNKs, NINs, and white SAMs.

As far as spells go, DRK has some useful spells and a lot of useless ones. You will never use elemental magic as a source of practical damage. Instead, a DRK tends to make liberal use of Dread Spikes, Stun, Endark, Absorb-TP*, Drain*, and Aspir*. While Enfeebling Magic is DRK's weakest skill it can occasionally save you with sleep and bind, (and possibly break?).

I can't give you pros and cons of the job, but rather I'll give the two main reasons I enjoy DRK:
  • The job is incredibly versatile and somewhat self-sufficient. It is possible to tank, DD, and offer support with DRK.
  • DRK feels like more of a cult job (though not so much as PUP or COR) and it will probably never become a bandwagon job again.**
Also, please try to type/spell properly. If not, we get headaches, you look like a troll, and the end result is us not wanting to answer questions.



*Just not in Abyssea
**Actually, I'm worried about this one... Last Resort update shows SE isn't so upset about us setting fire to their pet Aern and then taking a piss on it.

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 1:41pm by xypin
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#3 Jul 06 2011 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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xypin wrote:
If you are trying to pick the top DD job, then avoid DRK. Not because it's a sh*tty DD, but because it's not a job you can just pick up and crush everyone else. SAM is an easier job as it does not require much work/effort/attention to instantly be a decent DD.


Not as easy as WAR...im still a white WAR as I just started lvling it and just got it past 80, and the simplicity in dealing acceptable damage as WAR is ridiculous, and not just WS damage, WAR double attack is godly coupled with extremely damaging crits...its not even fair, and now im not allowed to be DRK nemore
#4 Jul 06 2011 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
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Finuve wrote:
xypin wrote:
If you are trying to pick the top DD job, then avoid DRK. Not because it's a sh*tty DD, but because it's not a job you can just pick up and crush everyone else. SAM is an easier job as it does not require much work/effort/attention to instantly be a decent DD.
Not as easy as WAR...im still a white WAR as I just started lvling it and just got it past 80, and the simplicity in dealing acceptable damage as WAR is ridiculous, and not just WS damage, WAR double attack is godly coupled with extremely damaging crits...its not even fair, and now im not allowed to be DRK nemore
Serves you right for leveling another job!
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#5 Jul 06 2011 at 1:36 PM Rating: Default
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xypin wrote:
[quote=x1Raziel]Hello, I'm thinking of being a DRK and I have a few questions I would like to ask to have a better idea of what I'm getting into before I spend a lot of time and money on the job. I like the idea of being able to use spells and melee, but are the spells even worth using? What are the pros and cons about being a DRK? and lastly, how good of a DD is DRK? can the job do more damage than DRG or SAM?
Inside Abyssea, WHM would be a better DD than DRK. Outside, DRK is one of the top DDs, but results will vary greatly with your performance as with any job.


[/ul]Also, please try to type/spell properly. If not, we get headaches, you look like a troll, and the end result is us not wanting to answer questions.



lol dam man i ask a few questions about the job and i get called a troll. english is not my first language im sorry if i miss spelled a word or two. i dont know why you say i look like a troll im not 100% sure what a troll is but i think its somebody the says stuff to offend people or try to get them mad. and i dont see how my message would seem as that
i can see why my friends dont like to use forums its got to the point were you cant post anything without getting insulted by someone or getting into argument. dont get me wrong what you said was not even that bad i was just laughing and was like dam i cant even ask something without getting insulted also reminded me of other times somebody would post something and some pric would come online and start talking crap for nothing lol anyways thanks for the awnsers im done with this ill just ask some mentors online

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 3:37pm by x1Raziel
#6 Jul 06 2011 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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xypin wrote:
Finuve wrote:
xypin wrote:
If you are trying to pick the top DD job, then avoid DRK. Not because it's a sh*tty DD, but because it's not a job you can just pick up and crush everyone else. SAM is an easier job as it does not require much work/effort/attention to instantly be a decent DD.
Not as easy as WAR...im still a white WAR as I just started lvling it and just got it past 80, and the simplicity in dealing acceptable damage as WAR is ridiculous, and not just WS damage, WAR double attack is godly coupled with extremely damaging crits...its not even fair, and now im not allowed to be DRK nemore
Serves you right for leveling another job!

probably does...but shells dont like to help people that cant be more useful when others need help...so I levelled WAR for red procs so i can get a redemption that I wont get to use
#7 Jul 06 2011 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
xypin wrote:
Also, please try to type/spell properly. If not, we get headaches, you look like a troll, and the end result is us not wanting to answer questions.
lol dam man i ask a few questions about the job and i get called a troll. english is not my first language im sorry if i miss spelled a word or two.
You're missing the point as it was a suggestion, not an insult. I did not call you a troll and even answered your questions without sarcastic remarks*.

Since you've already misunderstood the original statement, I might as well go into why it is important to put effort into posts on a forum.

You've come here asking for help, but we're free to give it if we want. Typically, when asking someone for assistance, you want to be respectful of that person because you're more likely to receive responses. This is where putting a little effort into your typing can go a long way. Simple things such as capitalizing your sentences and 'i' or using apostrophes help to make your posts more readable. The best part is it only takes several seconds to review what you have written before clicking "Post". Not putting for that little effort can make someone appear as lazy and disrespectful.

Most people on this forum realize there are readers that do not have English as their first language. No one is expecting posters to have absolutely correct English. I know my English isn't absolutely correct and I certainly do not expect someone to use the correct verb tenses. Just focus on the little things to make any posts much more readable and that will go a long way on any forum.




*Ok, there was the WHM comment... but that wasn't really sarcasm because sort of true- or was at one point. In Abyssea, DRK is a sh*tty DD. We have no weaponskill that can take advantage of critical hit dmg+%. Even our empy weaponskills are only a sad joke compared to the standard weaponskills of other jobs. The only difference is that DRK got a big update, making it a stronger job, but we still can't compare to 6000+ dmg Ukkos.

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 3:28pm by xypin
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#8 Jul 06 2011 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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Finuve wrote:
xypin wrote:
Finuve wrote:
xypin wrote:
If you are trying to pick the top DD job, then avoid DRK. Not because it's a sh*tty DD, but because it's not a job you can just pick up and crush everyone else. SAM is an easier job as it does not require much work/effort/attention to instantly be a decent DD.
Not as easy as WAR...im still a white WAR as I just started lvling it and just got it past 80, and the simplicity in dealing acceptable damage as WAR is ridiculous, and not just WS damage, WAR double attack is godly coupled with extremely damaging crits...its not even fair, and now im not allowed to be DRK nemore
Serves you right for leveling another job!
probably does...but shells dont like to help people that cant be more useful when others need help...so I levelled WAR for red procs so i can get a redemption that I wont get to use
I got lucky. My linkshell has THF + NIN + WHM. So I show up on DRK and we have all red procs except Polearm covered. I can count the number of times Polearm has shown up as a proc. Most of the time, we get the KI anyway and there has only been one situation that required someone to do a job change (@#%^ing Ophanim).
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#9 Jul 06 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
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DRK is currently one of the least effective DDs in the game. People keep saying "outside of Abyssea....", honestly, there is no outside of Abyssea. Despite SE's efforts to introduce new events like Voidwatch, and reinvigorate Dynamis, the game is still unfortunately all about Abyssea, and will be for the foreseeable future.

I have both Quietus and Ukko's Fury, and UF is much better than Quietus literally anywhere, inside or out of Abyssea. Our WS pale in comparison to Victory Smite, Rudra's Storm, and even non-crit Empyrean WSs like Fudo.

Sadly Torcleaver sucks in comparison too. DRK got the shaft on both of it's new WSs.

The easiest say to put DRK back in the game is give us a crit based WS. Preferably Quietus, because making any other WS crit based will render Penitence +2 and Redemption obsolete. Or, make Quietus ignore more DEF, or make it do something crazy like 6x damage instead of 3x.

I know this sounds like I'm sh*tting on DRK....but I'm a career DRK. I have been since day 1 on PC in the U.S. DRK is in terrible shape at the moment, and this can't be soft-padded or down played. SE needs to give us a fix, and fast. The Last Resort stuff was nice, but it's like a band-aide on a broken leg.
#10 Jul 06 2011 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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Hexagram wrote:
Make Quietus ignore more DEF, or make it do something crazy like 6x damage instead of 3x.
At the very least, I'd like to see Quietus ignore damage resistances or something along those lines. Some extra effect that can't be nullified with an insane amount of attack.

Also- all relic/mythic/empy ws's need to have 100% accuracy on first hit with upgraded weapon. That's more of a pipe dream though...
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#11 Jul 06 2011 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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I really hope SE gives DRK something monumental in this next update....I'm tired of playing WAR....I hate WAR now. I leveled it because it seemed fun 2ish years ago, and it was, but now I can never play DRK because of it.

I have the option available to me, to either do Redemption or Ukonvasara. The obvious choice would be GA, but if I upgrade it DRK is basically done. I'll never be able to play it again.
#12 Jul 06 2011 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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Or you can learn how to play 'New' DRK in Abyssea and go /MNK tank things in a -40 pdt set while turning out 650 damage counters... and you can be healed by a RDM. Or you try one of the exotic multihit builds for Infernal or Herculean.

ITT: Meatheads think DRK is only a Swing and WS DD.

'Outside Abyssea' is still a huge stipulation when you see Ascetic's Fury drop to ~1400 average and Ukko gets about 1800 unless they stack every buff they've got, and DRK still WSes more often than either of them. Quietus, Torc, and even Fudo just happily keep cranking. At the very least DRK is consistent.

With nine more levels coming our way in the future, I expect two things:

1. Abyssea will become utterly trivial.

2. SE will introduce non-Abyssea upgrades for Empyrean weapons which will even the score almost perfectly.
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#13 Jul 06 2011 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
Or you can learn how to play 'New' DRK in Abyssea and go /MNK tank things in a -40 pdt set while turning out 650 damage counters... and you can be healed by a RDM. Or you try one of the exotic multihit builds for Infernal or Herculean.

ITT: Meatheads think DRK is only a Swing and WS DD.

'Outside Abyssea' is still a huge stipulation when you see Ascetic's Fury drop to ~1400 average and Ukko gets about 1800 unless they stack every buff they've got, and DRK still WSes more often than either of them. Quietus, Torc, and even Fudo just happily keep cranking. At the very least DRK is consistent.

With nine more levels coming our way in the future, I expect two things:

1. Abyssea will become utterly trivial.

2. SE will introduce non-Abyssea upgrades for Empyrean weapons which will even the score almost perfectly.


The fact that you have to use a formerly laughable sub job, and custom gear set to even be useful, is proof positive that DRK needs to be fixed.

And no offense, but it's this "adapt to the sh*tty circumstances" mindstate that will keep DRK from getting the boost it needs. I'm sorry, but no other melee job has to bend over backwards to be competitive.

MNK and WAR trump DRK easily in the DoT department, in addition to having better WS inside and outside of Abyssea. I dunno if you party with some terrible WARs or what, but no WS DRK has comes remotely close to Ukko's Fury, anywhere.

Or Fudo for that matter. Or Victory Smite. Inside or outside of Abyssea.

Lastly, I'm asking for a fix for the problems we currently have. You're assuming the problems will go away based on Abyssea becoming trivial....which is extremely unlikely. SE already said they want AF3+2 to be the new "king gear"....and Empyreans are the new relics. Abyssea isn't going anywhere, even if they do add new end game events, because the rewards are too good.

In order for Torcleaver and Quietus to be competitive they'd have to either boost the mods ridiculously, or make them crit based. That's about it.

#14 Jul 06 2011 at 5:12 PM Rating: Default
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That was just painful to read. If your grammatical abilities are any indication of your intelligence, you'd be better off playing MNK.

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 7:16pm by Turin
#15 Jul 06 2011 at 5:13 PM Rating: Default
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Huh?


Edited, Jul 6th 2011 6:13pm by Hexagram
#16 Jul 06 2011 at 5:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Hexagram wrote:
Huh?


Edited, Jul 6th 2011 6:13pm by Hexagram


Not you, the OP.
#17 Jul 06 2011 at 6:49 PM Rating: Good
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Turin wrote:
That was just painful to read. If your grammatical abilities are any indication of your intelligence, you'd be better off playing MNK.

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 7:16pm by Turin

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#18 Jul 06 2011 at 6:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Hexagram wrote:
The fact that you have to use a formerly laughable sub job, and custom gear set to even be useful, is proof positive that DRK needs to be fixed.

That you would imply the sub is still laughable fully shows you don't know dick about the concept.

Who honestly gives a flying f*ck if other jobs outdamage DRK in Abyssea if it can still get sh*t done just the same? And I'm not talking 'take twice as long to kill something', DRK/MNK tears sh*t up so long as it has hate plus you have two stuns for hate reset moves. This isn't 'limp along doing whatever you can', its 'stop being a whiny sack of sh*t and play DRK because "f*ck you!"'

All offense intended, you are being the meathead 'must only deal damage' DD stereotype I was pointing out.

AF and Ukko aren't as obscenely strong outside of Abyssea. This makes a huge difference in comparing DRK to these DDs, and the gap is likely a lot smaller than anyone realizes.

Go back to WAR. Nobody really cares if you ever play DRK again.
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#19 Jul 06 2011 at 7:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
Hexagram wrote:
The fact that you have to use a formerly laughable sub job, and custom gear set to even be useful, is proof positive that DRK needs to be fixed.

That you would imply the sub is still laughable fully shows you don't know dick about the concept.

Who honestly gives a flying f*ck if other jobs outdamage DRK in Abyssea if it can still get sh*t done just the same? And I'm not talking 'take twice as long to kill something', DRK/MNK tears sh*t up so long as it has hate plus you have two stuns for hate reset moves. This isn't 'limp along doing whatever you can', its 'stop being a whiny sack of sh*t and play DRK because "f*ck you!"'

All offense intended, you are being the meathead 'must only deal damage' DD stereotype I was pointing out.

AF and Ukko aren't as obscenely strong outside of Abyssea. This makes a huge difference in comparing DRK to these DDs, and the gap is likely a lot smaller than anyone realizes.

Go back to WAR. Nobody really cares if you ever play DRK again.


You're a clown. Calm down. Your attitude doesn't impress me in the least.

First off, /MNK isn't a fix specifically for DRK. Yes you can get stuff done with that sub job....guess what, you're going to have to because DRK isn't in demand right now. You aren't doing it because it "works"....you're doing it because nobody wants you on DRK. Let's be real here for a second.

DRK has always been a spike damage job. Period. I dunno if you're a new jack DRK or what, but there was never a period in DRK's existence in FFXI that we were anything other than heavy melee/damage, with a bit of magic thrown in. So I'm not asking them to re-invent the wheel here.

You flat out have no idea what you're talking about to say there isn't a significant difference in DRK's WSs, and Ukko's Fury for example. Period. That's all I can say. I got both WSs, and the difference is night and day everywhere, inside or outside of Abyssea.

Lastly, DRK isn't really good at anything now. Other jobs can nuke better than us, enfeeble better than us, melee better than us, and WS better than us. Which is why DRK is one of the least popular melee classes, and is currently more or less obsolete. If you want to barely scrape by on /MNK because nobody wants you, go for it. I expect more out of DRK.
#20 Jul 06 2011 at 7:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hexagram wrote:
Lastly, DRK isn't really good at anything now.
I'd like to point out that DRK is one of the best red/blue proc jobs out there. Of course, this doesn't change anything, but DRK does have a useful aspect in Abyssea.
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#21 Jul 06 2011 at 8:07 PM Rating: Good
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xypin wrote:
I'd like to point out that DRK is one of the best red/blue proc jobs out there. Of course, this doesn't change anything, but DRK does have a useful aspect in Abyssea.


While this is true nobody is going to invite a DRK solely to hit red/blue/yellow. I've yet to have it happen, and I literally look for any reason to get on my DRK.

People would rather I come on WAR for red/blue, with a NIN. And a couple mages for yellow. That about covers all you need in Abyssea for red/yellow, and for blue you can add a MNK.
#22 Jul 06 2011 at 8:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Unfortunately, that is too true Smiley: frown
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#23 Jul 06 2011 at 8:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Hexagram wrote:
The fact that you have to use a formerly laughable sub job, and custom gear set to even be useful, is proof positive that DRK needs to be fixed.

And no offense, but it's this "adapt to the sh*tty circumstances" mindstate that will keep DRK from getting the boost it needs. I'm sorry, but no other melee job has to bend over backwards to be competitive.


what kind of idiot logic is this? /SAM was a formerly laughable sub before hasso, and without it, 2h DDs would never have caught up with MNKs and WARs would still be using ridills (until the level cap raise at least; don't remember how mechanics changed after that). /MNK becomes not-laughable as soon as MAIN/ can use counterstance, surely.

re: bending over backwards, potential is potential. if it's there, you can reach it. if ffxi is too hard for you... i don't even know how to end that sentence, the concept is too outrageous.
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#24 Jul 06 2011 at 8:26 PM Rating: Good
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xypin wrote:
Unfortunately, that is too true Smiley: frown


And this is typical of DRK's problem. Jack of all trades, master of none. We can enfeeble, melee, nuke, hit red/yellow/blue but other jobs can do these things individually better than us, while bringing more to the table over all.
#25 Jul 06 2011 at 8:34 PM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:
what kind of idiot logic is this? /SAM was a formerly laughable sub before hasso, and without it, 2h DDs would never have caught up with MNKs and WARs would still be using ridills (until the level cap raise at least; don't remember how mechanics changed after that). /MNK becomes not-laughable as soon as MAIN/ can use counterstance, surely.

re: bending over backwards, potential is potential. if it's there, you can reach it. if ffxi is too hard for you... i don't even know how to end that sentence, the concept is too outrageous.


Your comparison makes zero sense. /SAM became the norm for melee virtually across the board, in any given scenario, because SE boosted it to do just that. Become the sub job of choice.

/MNK isn't the norm outside of Abyssea. It isn't the norm anywhere else, nor will it ever be unless it receives a make-over similar to /SAM. In addition to this, the sole reason to go DRK/MNK is because you have to....why? Because DRK isn't in demand and you have to low man everything.

As far as your last little comment, I have just about the best gear on DRK and WAR, barring a piece or two. So the game isn't hard, at all, nor is it's difficulty related to anything we're talking about.
#26 Jul 06 2011 at 8:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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bend over backwards is talking about difficulty. do you have vocabulary trouble?

if /MNK makes DRK work, then you should level it. if not, you shouldn't. talking about "formerly" bad subjobs is idiotic. who cares?

edit: typo.

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 10:40pm by milich
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#27 Jul 06 2011 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
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You aren't following the rest, Hex. Anything in Abyssea still isn't a fair representation of any job in the game, but those are the comparisons you're hooked on. Ukko and VSmite lose about half their damage by leaving Abyssea, Torc and Quietus lose almost nothing. The crit bubble is going to burst and MNK and WAR will go back to being, while still top-DD by less of a stretch, also the best dirt-eaters in the game.

DRK doesn't 'need' much more than for the game to get out of Abyssea mode. A buff to Quietus would be nice (It is a little sad, after all, that it's only slightly better than our lv60 WS).

There's nothing wrong with getting outdamaged by WAR, MNK, SAM, or even DRG. It's all those jobs can do. DRK gets to stun, laugh at a mob beating itself up, lock an un-melee'd mob from ever using a TP move (AFv3 hands make this even easier now), and rock the fastest natural TP gain in the game.

You wanna play DRK? You don't get to be the top damage dealer. Deal with it.
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#28 Jul 06 2011 at 8:51 PM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:
bend over backwards is talking about difficulty. do you have vocabulary trouble?

if /MNK makes DRK work, then you should level it. if not, you shouldn't. talking about "formerly" bad subjobs is idiotic. who cares?

edit: typo.

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 10:40pm by milich


At least pretend to be an adult when you talk to me. The confrontational internet attitude you and others on this board have, doesn't impress me. I've been nothing but polite so far.

Bending over backwards has nothing to do with difficulty. The job is currently sh*tty. Period. Instead of admitting that, and expecting SE to do something about it, you squeak by. Why? Because you're forced to.

I'm not ok with that. If you are, go for it. Why you'd be so upset that I expect more out of DRK, I dunno.
#29 Jul 06 2011 at 8:56 PM Rating: Good
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bend over backwards

like, you might consider bending over backwards to understand the words you use, because it seems to be too great a task for the effort you're putting into it.

re: "talk to me like an adult," i am, you just don't like what you're hearing. i'm insulting you, as an adult. i would do this in real life, believe it or not. i insult people that say dumb sh*t in a superior tone. adults and children alike.
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#30 Jul 06 2011 at 9:14 PM Rating: Decent
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compared to the other DD, drk is crap atm. regardless of sub. inside/outside/tied up tied down up against a wall/be my rubber maid baby and we can do it all, the job does not measure up to the other dd. if you are beating other DD out, it's because they are:

1) they have terminal cancer and are high on dilaudid
2) if in abyssea, they have no atma/poor atma selection
3) brand new player/sh*tty player/misunderstanding of basic game mechanics/how to gear

doesn't mean the job doesn't bring something to the table, stuns and absorb tp are nice, so is spikes/facetanking. it's just that it brings nothing that's necessary or that another job can't do better. can be fun, sure.

still my favorite job.

still gets sh*t on by about anything else.

/thread
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#31 Jul 06 2011 at 9:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
You aren't following the rest, Hex. Anything in Abyssea still isn't a fair representation of any job in the game, but those are the comparisons you're hooked on. Ukko and VSmite lose about half their damage by leaving Abyssea, Torc and Quietus lose almost nothing. The crit bubble is going to burst and MNK and WAR will go back to being, while still top-DD by less of a stretch, also the best dirt-eaters in the game.

DRK doesn't 'need' much more than for the game to get out of Abyssea mode. A buff to Quietus would be nice (It is a little sad, after all, that it's only slightly better than our lv60 WS).

There's nothing wrong with getting outdamaged by WAR, MNK, SAM, or even DRG. It's all those jobs can do. DRK gets to stun, laugh at a mob beating itself up, lock an un-melee'd mob from ever using a TP move (AFv3 hands make this even easier now), and rock the fastest natural TP gain in the game.

You wanna play DRK? You don't get to be the top damage dealer. Deal with it.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I still don't think Abyssea is going anywhere, for the fore-seeable future. The rewards are too great.

And no DRK doesn't need much. But like I said, traditionally we were spike damage. We've always been spike damage. So it's kinda odd we'd fall so far behind in that category.

And, this is just a small side note, but WAR and MNK can melee/tank, and DRG can cure. DRK has Stun, but so does BLM. We can nuke, so can BLM. We can enfeeble, so can RDM, etc etc etc. It's not about being the #1 DD, it's more about reclaiming our former slot, which was spike damage.



#32 Jul 06 2011 at 9:27 PM Rating: Decent
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haven't been 'spike damage' since /sleep for tp + /thf but that's beside the point.
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#33 Jul 06 2011 at 9:30 PM Rating: Decent
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back in the day, if you bent over backwards for a k.club or relic, you were the king of zerg damage.
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#34 Jul 06 2011 at 9:39 PM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:
bend over backwards

like, you might consider bending over backwards to understand the words you use, because it seems to be too great a task for the effort you're putting into it.

re: "talk to me like an adult," i am, you just don't like what you're hearing. i'm insulting you, as an adult. i would do this in real life, believe it or not. i insult people that say dumb sh*t in a superior tone. adults and children alike.


No you don't. You know damn well you aren't this disrespect to anybody, over something this trivial. People get their teeth knocked out, or are killed for less. So nah, sorry, but I don't believe you. People hop on the internet and say whatever pops into their head. You're smugly disrespectful, similar to faceless teenagers on XBOX Live. Stop it. We can disagree and be polite about it.

Also nothing you linked has anything to do with what we're talking about. Yes, by leveling MNK as a sub job, getting -PDT gear, and using specific Atmas to get anything done in the game is "bending over backwards" to make DRK work. This has nothing to do with the difficulty of the game. Why this is so hard for you to grasp, I dunno.
#35 Jul 06 2011 at 9:46 PM Rating: Decent
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gigasnail wrote:
haven't been 'spike damage' since /sleep for tp + /thf but that's beside the point.


That's not true. We didn't have half the DoT capabilities we do now, until recently. Relatively recently anyway, in the grand scheme of things. Last Resort buff, Endark, Hasso from /SAM, etc.

Also it wasn't as easy to cap Haste, which was problematic for DoT when you're swinging a 528ish delay weapon. Our bread and butter was our WSs. It always has been.
#36 Jul 06 2011 at 9:48 PM Rating: Decent
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hasso and the /sam changes were back in 2006...
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shintasama wrote:
gigasnail wrote:
if everyone else followed your example, there'd be world peace and cake for all. you will find i am a generous god.

Don't listen to this! Giga is a cruel tentacle raping god!

lolgaxe wrote:
I voted for giga because I, for one, welcome our tentacled overlords.

His Excellency SillyXSara wrote:
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#37 Jul 06 2011 at 9:49 PM Rating: Good
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wah wah wah, you feel stupid for explicitly saying "it shouldn't be harder to be competitive" (which, again, is what 'bend over backwards' is; if you have to bend over backwards to do something, it's because it's hard/complicated/requires a lot of effort).

also, again, yes i am this way in real life (edit; forgot to write this part:D), and if someone even intimated to me that they would react to my correcting their language usage with violence, i would beat the sh*t out of them. however, you are crazy if you think people just suddenly break into violence when someone is verbally disrespectful to them. maybe you watch too much sopranos, or live in a Really Tough Neighborhood.

if you want to keep going, please define the idiom 'bend over backwards' for me. try extra hard to do it. approach the task as if it requires lots of effort, ie as if it were very difficult. give it your best.

---

edit: you posted classic "we didn't have enough haste for DoT with high delay weapon" gem while i was writing my post. ...and you pretend to understand how the game works.'

edit2: i wonder if my point above was clear. internet tough guys like (apparently) this hex character always paint this Rough picture of real life, where if you Say That To My Face you get knocked out, so all the mean people are skinny/overweight nerds who must never act rude (because surely they would get stomped at the first disrespectful peep). people who paint this picture of this world are either abysmally unfortunate and live in terrible, violent circumstances (the kind that would normally preclude MMOs, but who knows)... or (most likely) they're privileged (likely white) kids that have never seen any actual violence.

i say this, because in the adult world, if i made fun of your use of some phrase, and even went so far as to say "are you stupid or something?" you wouldn't punch me. also, if the situation were reversed, and you called me stupid, questioned my knowledge of something, or just flatly ridiculed me, i wouldn't punch you either. however, threatening violence is a whole different story altogether. if you're talking to someone, and they're like, "you keep talking like that and i may have to knock you out or something," this is a big deal if they actually mean it. if you're not going to react to the situation by getting out of it, you should be getting ready to attack this person before they attack you. threatening violence over simple words / "disrespect" is wholly inappropriate, and a big red flag.

Edited, Jul 7th 2011 12:04am by milich
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#38 Jul 06 2011 at 9:59 PM Rating: Default
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gigasnail wrote:
hasso and the /sam changes were back in 2006...


I was playing 4-5 years before that. That's why I said "relatively recent".

And that's one aspect of how they buffed DRK's DoT capabilities. Which alone obviously isn't much. Prior to Abyssea, and the new gear they added since then, it was hard as hell to cap Haste on DRK. Endark, Last Resort, etc. were obviously huge buffs to DoT as well.

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 11:07pm by Hexagram
#39 Jul 06 2011 at 10:06 PM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:
wah wah wah, you feel stupid for explicitly saying "it shouldn't be harder to be competitive" (which, again, is what 'bend over backwards' is; if you have to bend over backwards to do something, it's because it's hard/complicated/requires a lot of effort).

also, again, yes i am this way in real life (edit; forgot to write this part:D), and if someone even intimated to me that they would react to my correcting their language usage with violence, i would beat the sh*t out of them. however, you are crazy if you think people just suddenly break into violence when someone is verbally disrespectful to them. maybe you watch too much sopranos, or live in a Really Tough Neighborhood.

if you want to keep going, please define the idiom 'bend over backwards' for me. try extra hard to do it. approach the task as if it requires lots of effort, ie as if it were very difficult. give it your best.

---

edit: you posted classic "we didn't have enough haste for DoT with high delay weapon" gem while i was writing my post. ...and you pretend to understand how the game works.'

edit2: i wonder if my point above was clear. internet tough guys like (apparently) this hex character always paint this Rough picture of real life, where if you Say That To My Face you get knocked out, so all the mean people are skinny/overweight nerds who must never act rude (because surely they would get stomped at the first disrespectful peep). people who paint this picture of this world are either abysmally unfortunate and live in terrible, violent circumstances (the kind that would normally preclude MMOs, but who knows)... or (most likely) they're privileged (likely white) kids that have never seen any actual violence.

i say this, because in the adult world, if i made fun of your use of some phrase, and even went so far as to say "are you stupid or something?" you wouldn't punch me. also, if the situation were reversed, and you called me stupid, questioned my knowledge of something, or just flatly ridiculed me, i wouldn't punch you either. however, threatening violence is a whole different story altogether. if you're talking to someone, and they're like, "you keep talking like that and i may have to knock you out or something," this is a big deal if they actually mean it. if you're not going to react to the situation by getting out of it, you should be getting ready to attack this person before they attack you. threatening violence over simple words / "disrespect" is wholly inappropriate, and a big red flag.


You being a Sage speaks volumes on why Alla isn't taken seriously.

You type a lot, without actually saying anything. Instead of pretending to be tough online, or continually asking "what do you mean by bending over backwards?!" even though I explained it several times, why don't you join in the conversation. What do you think DRK needs to be competitive? If you think DRK is competitive, explain why.

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 11:08pm by Hexagram
#40 Jul 06 2011 at 10:12 PM Rating: Good
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i don't care if it is competitive or not; i'm insulting you for misusing a phrase and then being so embarrassed by it that you won't admit it. i also, earlier, was insulting your ridiculous logic about "formerly bad subjob" (again, who cares?).

p.s. please read my edit above, b/c that is (in part) why i'm not taking you seriously (the other part is that you're writing stupid things). none of what we've done together in this momentous thread has anything at all to do with violence or toughness. believe it or not.

re: no one taking alla seriously, ironically, i'm part of why a lot of people started taking alla seriously. i quit awhile ago though, so i don't contribute to this or any site any more. i mainly post beer recommendations and youtube videos.

however, i still have a very good command of logic, and that is how i was able to catch your extremely obvious error that everyone else already caught. p.p.s. you never defined the phrase that you misused; if you had, you'd have needed to explain how it doesn't mean "put in more effort; ie work harder for the task to get done," etc etc which exactly has to do with difficulty. do i need to have you define 'difficulty' as well?

(by the way, i know that you know what all these words mean; you are too emotional to use words properly)
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#41 Jul 06 2011 at 10:13 PM Rating: Good
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brain hurts.
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shintasama wrote:
gigasnail wrote:
if everyone else followed your example, there'd be world peace and cake for all. you will find i am a generous god.

Don't listen to this! Giga is a cruel tentacle raping god!

lolgaxe wrote:
I voted for giga because I, for one, welcome our tentacled overlords.

His Excellency SillyXSara wrote:
We like our Bisexuals with tits, thank you.
#42 Jul 06 2011 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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And for the record I never threatened you. I said, if you acted how you are right now, in real life, somebody would eventually whup your ass. And they would, for being disrespectful over something so trivial. You can turn on the news in literally any city in America and see people get beat over less. If not killed. So I dunno where you're from, but the fact that you equate this to "The Sopranos" is mind blowing. It happens outside of an HBO show, trust me.

Look at all the emotion you're pouring into a civilized discussion about a video game. You're trying to tell me you act like this out in the real world? Cut the bullsh*t out and let's discuss DRK like two adults.
#43 Jul 06 2011 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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of course i do. the people i hang around with are smarter than to deny that words carry their conventional meanings when shown that they are wrong. this would surely yield someone insulting you, and no, you wouldn't @#%^ing punch them over it. have you ever punched someone for "disrespecting you"? just verbally, trivially talking in a way you didn't like, you were like, "@#%^ that, time to @#%^ you up!"? if so, you must realize that you're an asshole/bully/criminal. i have only ever been involved in violence when the threat of violence was the issue to begin with, and believe me, i've insulted a whole lot of people to their faces.

anyway, this is discussing things like an adult. that i'm mean to you, or putting you down, does not mean i'm pouring on emotion or being a child. your responses might have something to do with it (if you actually realized the truth of this last sentence, i promise you that you would be shocked... you're not going to though; in your mind, i'm "not treating you with enough respect" or overreacting, blablabla).

Edited, Jul 7th 2011 12:26am by milich
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#44 Jul 06 2011 at 10:58 PM Rating: Good
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Dear God, that was a load of hot air. Calm the hell down, folks.
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#45 Jul 06 2011 at 11:04 PM Rating: Decent
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this is why we can't have nice things.
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shintasama wrote:
gigasnail wrote:
if everyone else followed your example, there'd be world peace and cake for all. you will find i am a generous god.

Don't listen to this! Giga is a cruel tentacle raping god!

lolgaxe wrote:
I voted for giga because I, for one, welcome our tentacled overlords.

His Excellency SillyXSara wrote:
We like our Bisexuals with tits, thank you.
#46 Jul 06 2011 at 11:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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This so makes up for not having TV Smiley: lol

Edited, Jul 7th 2011 12:09am by xypin
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#47 Jul 07 2011 at 12:01 AM Rating: Good
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xypin wrote:
This so makes up for not having TV Smiley: lol

Edited, Jul 7th 2011 12:09am by xypin


if i can't contribute to the community with game knowledge anymore, at least i can make fun of people.

edit: look at this fucking avatar. and no, i haven't played everquest.

Edited, Jul 7th 2011 2:01am by milich
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#48 Jul 07 2011 at 2:50 AM Rating: Good
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I'm sorry, but Outside Abyssea things change DRASTICALLY. Lets be honest here, Razed Ruins is the only reason DRK and SAM are considered lol-worthy in Abyssea, as they have no crit WSes of merit. There's no Razed Ruins outside Abyssea. Outside Abyssea, DRK's WSes catch up well on a per WS basis.

The LR change was also a huge boost, giving DRK so much that it's not even funny. Even inside Abyssea, depending on buffs your group brings, DRK can even start to keep up. DRK also has the ability to swing obscenely fast, with a 5 hit build, wielding a 2-4 hit GS, using a powerful Magic WS, constantly Self SCing.

Abyssea's value will fall. The Abyssea series is over. There will not be new abyssea content and there will not be new Abyssea rewards. There will be 9 levels of new events and and older content revamped for for higher levels. We already know that there's at least 1 more part to Voidwatch, meaning harder fights and better rewards, and SE has stated it's going to perform similar revamps to CoP Dynamis, Salvage, and Limbus. Dynamis has already seen a huge revamp for the better. New rewards that are pretty decent in a lot of cases, and the ease of obtaining relics is at an all time high. You can solo farm ~70 coins a day on jobs with all procs (NIN/DNC, DNC/NIN, DRK/DNC). Also finding AF is an even bigger joke now, so the pieces that are still worth while, and there's quite a few, are out of no one's reach.

Also, the 90 Upgrade to Apocalypse was huge to us with one, and those that will soon have it thanks to the ease of building one. One or two more upgrades like it, and Apoc DRKs will be on top no matter where they are. The WS itself already has so many benefits going for it with the Haste and a massive drain, but the +25% damage boost to Relic WS damage was actually kinda monstrous. It's a static +25% to all damage that means Doubles/Triples/Quadruples all have their hits boosted as well, and the 25% boost is also a 25% boost to the drain, obviously. I can currently go into Abyssea and compete quite well with the non-empyrean DDs using RR/Apoc/A&O, though I've considered using Lion instead of Alpha and Omega on more Squishy Targets, so I can get more from SE. Outside Abyssea, Catastrophe is probably the most broken WS in the game, and one of the more damaging. It can only get better.

Things can only go up for DRK from here on out.
#49 Jul 07 2011 at 8:12 AM Rating: Good
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Milich and Hex's exchange: 10/10, would read again. Smiley: laugh
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#50 Jul 07 2011 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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Return1 wrote:
I'm sorry, but Outside Abyssea things change DRASTICALLY. Lets be honest here, Razed Ruins is the only reason DRK and SAM are considered lol-worthy in Abyssea, as they have no crit WSes of merit. There's no Razed Ruins outside Abyssea. Outside Abyssea, DRK's WSes catch up well on a per WS basis.

The LR change was also a huge boost, giving DRK so much that it's not even funny. Even inside Abyssea, depending on buffs your group brings, DRK can even start to keep up. DRK also has the ability to swing obscenely fast, with a 5 hit build, wielding a 2-4 hit GS, using a powerful Magic WS, constantly Self SCing.

Abyssea's value will fall. The Abyssea series is over. There will not be new abyssea content and there will not be new Abyssea rewards. There will be 9 levels of new events and and older content revamped for for higher levels. We already know that there's at least 1 more part to Voidwatch, meaning harder fights and better rewards, and SE has stated it's going to perform similar revamps to CoP Dynamis, Salvage, and Limbus. Dynamis has already seen a huge revamp for the better. New rewards that are pretty decent in a lot of cases, and the ease of obtaining relics is at an all time high. You can solo farm ~70 coins a day on jobs with all procs (NIN/DNC, DNC/NIN, DRK/DNC). Also finding AF is an even bigger joke now, so the pieces that are still worth while, and there's quite a few, are out of no one's reach.

Also, the 90 Upgrade to Apocalypse was huge to us with one, and those that will soon have it thanks to the ease of building one. One or two more upgrades like it, and Apoc DRKs will be on top no matter where they are. The WS itself already has so many benefits going for it with the Haste and a massive drain, but the +25% damage boost to Relic WS damage was actually kinda monstrous. It's a static +25% to all damage that means Doubles/Triples/Quadruples all have their hits boosted as well, and the 25% boost is also a 25% boost to the drain, obviously. I can currently go into Abyssea and compete quite well with the non-empyrean DDs using RR/Apoc/A&O, though I've considered using Lion instead of Alpha and Omega on more Squishy Targets, so I can get more from SE. Outside Abyssea, Catastrophe is probably the most broken WS in the game, and one of the more damaging. It can only get better.

Things can only go up for DRK from here on out.


Apocalypse is currently laughable....to put it into perspective Redemption easily trumps it, and Redemption is one of the weakest Empyreans. Not to mention, the Haste from the Aftermath is "gear" (no idea why) and it's virtually impossible not to cap Haste via gear nowadays. Also, the WS damage sucks.

I know DRKs with both weapons, and nobody in their right mind would use Apoc over Redemption. Which is sad considering you could probably upgrade a Redemption in a week or so.

Which brings me to my next point. Yes, a DRK can compete with a non-Empyrean melee. The problem is, non-Empyrean melee are no longer the standard. You could get Empyrean GKT, Katana, or Greatsword in under a week. I know, because we've done it. Or, you could get the NQ Walk of Echoes version in 1-3 days.

So it's not as if this is some ridiculously hard to obtain items. The fact that Empyrean (and WoE path) melee exist is reason enough not to invite DRKs.

And for the record Tachi: Fudo is better than Quietus, despite both SAM and DRK being "lol-worthy". Our new WS is on the low end, of the low end. If we got Quietus 3-4 years ago it would be one of the best WS in the game. But like I said, the standard is different now.

As far as Abyssea, it's not going anywhere. It hasn't even been a year since it ended. Sky, Sea, Limbus, Einherjar, Salvage, etc. still remained popular years after they were introduced. People still do Dynamis, to this day. So the idea that Abyssea will somehow become unpopular over the next 6ish months, simply because of a level cap raise, is kinda silly. Especially considering the fastest way to EXP is still Fell Cleave, and you still need 175 HNM drops to even upgrade Empyrean to level 90. Also, AF3+2. SE never replaces it's new "high end" gear quickly.
#51 Jul 07 2011 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Apocalypse is currently laughable....to put it into perspective Redemption easily trumps it, and Redemption is one of the weakest Empyreans. Not to mention, the Haste from the Aftermath is "gear" (no idea why) and it's virtually impossible not to cap Haste via gear nowadays. Also, the WS damage sucks.


I'm fully aware of how Apoc's haste works. The benefit of the haste comes in the tradeoff. Needing 10% less haste to cap means I can stack more ACC/ATK/STR/DA/TA type gear. The +35ACC on the weapon itself is also nice if you do new stuff, that actually requires ACC. You could make an argument against Cata's sh*tty WSC mods, but new gear has really started to kill that that one. Notable Catastrophe upgrade pieces released since Abyssea, like Twilight Helm, Twilight Mail, Bale Sollerets +2, and Soil belt, have really gone a long way in putting Cata gear in better shape.


Saying the WS Damage sucks must be some kinda joke seeing as the 90 Apoc's Catastrophe is stronger than any other Scythe WS at 100TP. With some magical hastes, Apoc also makes you nigh invulnerable unless the mob has retarded defense or has an OHsh*t TP move.

Quote:
I know DRKs with both weapons, and nobody in their right mind would use Apoc over Redemption. Which is sad considering you could probably upgrade a Redemption in a week or so.


Apocalypse (90) has the more powerful WS, the better dps, alters gear options, and has the unique ability to cure you for upwards of 500-2,000+ hp. It just loses handily in DoT to Redemption in most situations due to the odd aftermath.

Quote:
Which brings me to my next point. Yes, a DRK can compete with a non-Empyrean melee. The problem is, non-Empyrean melee are no longer the standard. You could get Empyrean GKT, Katana, or Greatsword in under a week. I know, because we've done it. Or, you could get the NQ Walk of Echoes version in 1-3 days.


Empyreans are not the standard. The current standard is almost half naked losers failing miserably, leeching off of the 2-4 people actually putting effort in. Now if you want to say it's more common to encounter empyreans in an organized event group or shell, then yes.

Quote:
And for the record Tachi: Fudo is better than Quietus, despite both SAM and DRK being "lol-worthy". Our new WS is on the low end, of the low end. If we got Quietus 3-4 years ago it would be one of the best WS in the game. But like I said, the standard is different now.


Fudo is better in almost all situations, not because the WS itself is that much better, but because Overwhelm is @#%^ing boss.

That said, Torcleaver, properly built, rapes Fudo if you're going for BNS pleasing WSes. It has a significantly larger fTP, better base damage on weapon, and DRK's Vit gear has gotten a lot better over the last year.

Quote:
As far as Abyssea, it's not going anywhere. It hasn't even been a year since it ended. Sky, Sea, Limbus, Einherjar, Salvage, etc. still remained popular years after they were introduced. People still do Dynamis, to this day. So the idea that Abyssea will somehow become unpopular over the next 6ish months, simply because of a level cap raise, is kinda silly. Especially considering the fastest way to EXP is still Fell Cleave, and you still need 175 HNM drops to even upgrade Empyrean to level 90. Also, AF3+2. SE never replaces it's new "high end" gear quickly.


The fact it's not going anywhere is the point. It's over. The ease of abyssea will only kill it faster. I came back from a long break, starting just after visions, and got leveled all my jobs 75/80-90, got all the important atmas, all wins, shin kill, had 5/5 AF3+2 for all my jobs, leveled a new job from 37, got its 5/5 AF3+2, and completed an empyrean in just a month. There's nothing really left for me personally in abyssea, and I'm sure there will be a lot more like me, especially since Abyssea will only get EVEN EASIER as the level caps rise, new gear comes out, and adjustments to jobs and the areas themselves are implemented (Gold Boxing sh*tty NM KIs is a perfect example).

There's going to be 9 new levels of gear, at least one new event (well continuation of a new event), and revamps of CoP Dynamis, Salvage, and Limbus at very least. SE has already added ways to make old gear almost as good as or, in some cases, better than AF3+2. Not only that, but those Empyreans you hold in such high regard, will more than likely need to be upgraded in some event outside of abyssea now for 95-99 upgrades, possibly only for the 99 upgrade as they could make Shin kills count as one upgrade.

Using EXP as a reason people won't move on from abyssea is just plain stupid. It's like those old players counting exp/merit parties as end game. It will be popular for that yes, but it won't be THE Endgame that it currently is, by combination of the things I've said.


Abyssea can only go downhill from here.

Edited, Jul 7th 2011 4:03pm by Return1
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