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#1 Jun 25 2011 at 5:18 PM Rating: Default
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Is it me or is this the most powerful scythe in the game. I was farming peitse for my ToM and using this scythe. am used to seeing 100-200 dmg a hit. This thing was hitting 400-800 a swing. For the first time in years I felt like more than just a slow hitting average damage dealer.

I compare it with other scythes, Plaque off NM worm, and Twilight scythe. Both do have higher base hits, but they don't compare with the DPS overall of this scythe. Am I right in thinking this scythe is the best we can get?



Edited, Jun 25th 2011 7:38pm by kimjongil76
#2 Jun 25 2011 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
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Parsing beats eye-balling.

My scythe deals double damage all the time.

You need to give up a slot for magnus stones.
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#3 Jun 25 2011 at 7:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Even if it had a 40% chance to deal double damage in melee, it'd only be 'equivalent' to a 127 damage scythe (91 * 1.4) for only melee hits. It will WS like a 91 damage scythe (In other words: A weaker Guillotine than you were doing at level 75).

It's trash.

Just FYI and to give you some perspective: I go DRK/MNK everywhere in Abyssea with an atma setup for 75% Counter rate. I deal 600-650 damage crits and the same when I counter. I can also tell you that Magnus does not proc on Counter, because I have one, nor does it proc on WS.

You have what is called 'BNS': Big Number Syndrome. You see big numbers and you think you're doing more damage overall. This is what's wrong with DRK and Torcleaver right now, where their 5k WS 'advantage' only comes on a Triple Attack proc with Griffon's Claw and a Store-TP atma.
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#4 Jun 25 2011 at 7:39 PM Rating: Good
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Does the doubling come on the entire swing or just the 91 damage? It doesn't really change that the magnus scythe sucks, but it changes the math in the comparison.
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#5 Jun 25 2011 at 8:13 PM Rating: Decent
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JaxReborn wrote:
Does the doubling come on the entire swing or just the 91 damage? It doesn't really change that the magnus scythe sucks, but it changes the math in the comparison.

It's the whole swing, but only the melee portion of the swing. It won't double your Souleater or Endark damage if that's what you're thinking. Well if you want to fully consider it, pDIF and whatnot don't matter (should be the same across all weapons in comparison):

Damage 91, WRank 10. 109 base damage with capped fSTR.

Swings as 152 (109*1.4) damage in melee after ODD bonus.

Compare to:

Twilight Scythe
Damage 128, WRank 14. 150 base damage with capped fSTR.

Magnus sorta 'cheats' its otherwise low fSTR cap upwards because it'd be inside the multiplier, giving ~25 more base damage versus only +18 with it's real WRank considered, so if you were only getting an un-capped amount of fSTR on a given mob, Magnus would be gaining more from it. It still sucks to WS with a weapon weaker than lolPerdu.

So I wouldn't totally crush somebody's balls for using Magnus actually, at least until they get a decent >120 damage Scythe, as long as they're building for that melee damage instead of WS damage, meaning RR/GH/(VVorSS).

Edited, Jun 25th 2011 7:16pm by Raelix
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#6 Jun 26 2011 at 8:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
Even if it had a 40% chance to deal double damage in melee, it'd only be 'equivalent' to a 127 damage scythe (91 * 1.4) for only melee hits. It will WS like a 91 damage scythe (In other words: A weaker Guillotine than you were doing at level 75).

It's trash.

Just FYI and to give you some perspective: I go DRK/MNK everywhere in Abyssea with an atma setup for 75% Counter rate. I deal 600-650 damage crits and the same when I counter. I can also tell you that Magnus does not proc on Counter, because I have one, nor does it proc on WS.

You have what is called 'BNS': Big Number Syndrome. You see big numbers and you think you're doing more damage overall. This is what's wrong with DRK and Torcleaver right now, where their 5k WS 'advantage' only comes on a Triple Attack proc with Griffon's Claw and a Store-TP atma.


Boy you really do hold a grudge against torcleaver.
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#7 Jun 26 2011 at 10:10 PM Rating: Decent
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AshMulder wrote:
Boy you really do hold a grudge against torcleaver.

There's a difference between a grudge and showing mathematically that the weapons are within 10% and Redemption/Penitence will scale better with higher player and mob levels.

Building for max WS damage in Abyssea still makes someone a retard, Torcleaver or otherwise.
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#8 Jun 26 2011 at 11:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
AshMulder wrote:
Boy you really do hold a grudge against torcleaver.

There's a difference between a grudge and showing mathematically that the weapons are within 10% and Redemption/Penitence will scale better with higher player and mob levels.

Building for max WS damage in Abyssea still makes someone a retard, Torcleaver or otherwise.


Well exactly if their without 10% of each other their either both pretty good weapon or both pretty sh*tty.And although i don t gear my atmas for torcleaver dmg, sometimes when im lazy and i reinfuse , sh*t still dies wayyyy to fast and isn t challenging one bit.
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#9 Jun 27 2011 at 1:56 AM Rating: Default
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AshMulder wrote:
Raelix wrote:
AshMulder wrote:
Boy you really do hold a grudge against torcleaver.

There's a difference between a grudge and showing mathematically that the weapons are within 10% and Redemption/Penitence will scale better with higher player and mob levels.

Building for max WS damage in Abyssea still makes someone a retard, Torcleaver or otherwise.


Well exactly if their without 10% of each other their either both pretty good weapon or both pretty sh*tty.And although i don t gear my atmas for torcleaver dmg, sometimes when im lazy and i reinfuse , sh*t still dies wayyyy to fast and isn t challenging one bit.

Yeah, but hence my citation of BNS: ZOMG 5k WS WHEN QUIETUS ONLY DOES 3K LET'S IGNORE HITBUILDS AND NON-ABYSSEA PERFORMANCE BECAUSE 5K > 3K SO TORCLEAVER IS THE BIGGER DAMAGE AMIRITE?!

Torc tards are the biggest BNS whores in the game right now. That Caladbolg is circumstantially better is just coincidental.

Edited, Jun 27th 2011 12:57am by Raelix
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#10 Jun 27 2011 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
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I'd say a large majority of my Torcleavers were under 3000 dmg. I'm impressed if I somehow managed to break 4000 dmg with the weaponskill.
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#11 Jun 27 2011 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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what is a true breakdown of Caladbolg versus Redemption? I currently have a Penitence +2 but started building a redemption. regardless of which is better im still going with the scythe just because I like scythe but I'm curious to see what the numbers would be like
#12 Jun 27 2011 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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This might answer your question.

I have a lv85 Redemption and it has treated me well. My only wish is that Quietus had skillchain properties similar to Torcleaver. My group has several other relic/empy weapon holders, so being able to make light AND darkness skillchains made a pretty significant difference.

Edited, Jun 27th 2011 10:16am by xypin
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#13 Jun 27 2011 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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xypin wrote:
This might answer your question.

I have a lv85 Redemption and it has treated me well. My only wish is that Quietus had skillchain properties similar to Torcleaver. My group has several other relic/empy weapon holders, so being able to make light AND darkness skillchains made a pretty significant difference.

Edited, Jun 27th 2011 10:16am by xypin
Quietus has treated me well so far, kinda excited to get it off of redemption
#14 Jun 27 2011 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
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xypin wrote:
I'd say a large majority of my Torcleavers were under 3000 dmg. I'm impressed if I somehow managed to break 4000 dmg with the weaponskill.


This, only time you ll see those big 5k torcleaver are agaisnt weak ass mobs and on anything that matters you ll do under 3k. But on the other hand say someone with a bad case of BNS used RR,apoc and griphon claw, he would still outdo 90% of the abyssea burned drks that melee with str rings...
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#15 Jun 27 2011 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Finuve wrote:
xypin wrote:
I have a lv85 Redemption and it has treated me well. My only wish is that Quietus had skillchain properties similar to Torcleaver. My group has several other relic/empy weapon holders, so being able to make light AND darkness skillchains made a pretty significant difference.
Quietus has treated me well so far, kinda excited to get it off of redemption

Quietus closes Darkness off Evisceration, and you can close a second darkness off that. That's all I cared about when I was checking properties for myself. Haven't tested further, but this makes it just as useful as I noted Infernal Scythe's SC properties to be.

AshMulder wrote:
This, only time you ll see those big 5k torcleaver are agaisnt weak ass mobs and on anything that matters you ll do under 3k. But on the other hand say someone with a bad case of BNS used RR,apoc and griphon claw, he would still outdo 90% of the abyssea burned drks that melee with str rings...

That's exactly what I mean. I can push Quietus over 3k with Triple Attack procs and Griffon's Claw, but would much rather sling my 2-2.2k faster and with impunity. Difference is: Even without pure WS damage atma I can throw a 3k+ Souleater Guillotine and only be down 700hp.

I was outdoing the vast majority of DDs, even Crit WS jobs, with my multihit Infernal Scythe setup. It's no feat, just requires intelligence.

You should also probably know that I did a Penitence +2 over Redemption for hitbuild options (and instantaneity of getting it level 90 after WoE coins, and preference for doing Armageddon or Ochain first). I have little concern for +15% more melee damage when I'm WSing 20% faster on 5-hit. If a Caladbolg DRK isn't geared or can't be assed to 6-hit outside, I win. If a Redemption DRK isn't geared or can't be assed to 5-hit outside, I win. If they do press their hitbuild down, they only win because of delay as it crushes their actual total damage increase from ODD even lower. A portion of a portion (a percentage proc rate on only a percentage of damage) is always a smaller portion, so you could say that the pants-jizzing about 40% ODD is a little BNS as well, especially without DRK pushing much TP phase damage to start with.

Edited, Jun 27th 2011 1:13pm by Raelix
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#16 Jun 27 2011 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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Raelix wrote:
Finuve wrote:
xypin wrote:
I have a lv85 Redemption and it has treated me well. My only wish is that Quietus had skillchain properties similar to Torcleaver. My group has several other relic/empy weapon holders, so being able to make light AND darkness skillchains made a pretty significant difference.
Quietus has treated me well so far, kinda excited to get it off of redemption
Quietus closes Darkness off Evisceration, and you can close a second darkness off that. That's all I cared about when I was checking properties for myself. Haven't tested further, but this makes it just as useful as I noted Infernal Scythe's SC properties to be.
If I toss in a Torcleaver right before my warrior throws down Ukko's Fury, I've just doubled his damage. When I use Quietus instead, nothing is gained. Of course, Torcleaver can also have a part in making Darkness skillchains where as Quietus is stuck with only those.


Also, will you shut it with your damage numbers? No one cares. We get the point, there are options, no one is disagreeing with you. Now be gone.

Edited, Jun 27th 2011 4:38pm by xypin
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#17 Jun 27 2011 at 5:15 PM Rating: Decent
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xypin wrote:
Also, will you shut it with your damage numbers? No one cares. We get the point, there are options, no one is disagreeing with you.

Numbers are far, far, more valid than the eyeballed BNS or just plain horsesh*t that Torc tards spout anymore. I just give numbers to illustrate my point better than 'I could do more damage on 15% of my WS and get the e-peen, but instead I'll WS faster and do more overall'.

In a thread about comparison between weapons, you're deriding the use of real numbers? For f*cking shame dude... This is the cancer that is killing DRK.

Edited, Jun 27th 2011 4:26pm by Raelix
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#18 Jun 27 2011 at 5:36 PM Rating: Good
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It just gets old reading the same arrogant attitude about crushing other DDs in Abyssea when really, damage in Abyssea is so very, very unimportant.

Raelix wrote:
In a thread about comparison between weapons, you're deriding the use of real numbers? For f*cking shame dude... This is the cancer that is killing DRK.
If you want to use real numbers, get a @#%^ing parser and use competent DDs.

Edited, Jun 27th 2011 6:37pm by xypin
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#19 Jun 27 2011 at 5:46 PM Rating: Default
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xypin wrote:
It just gets old reading the same arrogant attitude about crushing other DDs in Abyssea when really, damage in Abyssea is so very, very unimportant.

That was with a novelty setup, Infernal or Herc spam, that didn't require an Empyrean/NQ weapon to compete with 'more desired' Crit DD. It was a way to play DRK. Your attitude suggests that you don't want to play DRK.

xypin wrote:
If you want to use real numbers, get a @#%^ing parser.

You're assuming I don't parse? Would I use any sort of 'average' if it wasn't parsed on Altepa Dolls or something? gg

Achieving the maximum damage possible in Abyssea is unimportant, but you don't see SMNs melee'ing any time soon. There's still a basic amount of damage output needed (particularly for a given amount of TP feed on some mobs) to get things down in short order because time in Abyssea is limited. Are you now advocating that 'average' is okay as long as you can kill a single NM and lot the drops before your 120 minutes expire? I've seen an Amarok take 45 minutes (we farmed TWO more pop sets in that time), gonna lower your standards to accept that?

Seriously, be more butthurt. We're all professionals here and can make our own considerations of the validity of others' claims. I gave you parsed real numbers without saying they were. Pulling a 2k average Quietus with /SAM is easy as long as you've got the lv90 version of either weapon.


If you want to suck on your own terms but not be a bandwagon DD, go play SAM or something. Some of us have playstyle and other stylistic preferences that keep us playing DRK. If we truly only wanted to be dealing MAXIMUM DAMAGE ALL THE TIME RAAAAR we wouldn't be playing motherf*cking DRK.

Edited, Jun 27th 2011 4:58pm by Raelix
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#20 Jun 27 2011 at 6:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Raelix wrote:
Are you now advocating that 'average' is okay as long as you can kill a single NM and lot the drops before your 120 minutes expire? I've seen an Amarok take 45 minutes.
Adding mutliple ???s was one of the best thing SE ever did. Now my group, the "I'm going to take 50 mins" group, and the "pimped out 7 min" duo can all fight at the same time. People bitch when they lose their NM (though we return drops) or we pop ahead of them. Maybe if we didn't have to wait all @#%^ing day, things wouldn't be that way.

Edited, Jun 27th 2011 7:00pm by xypin
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#21 Jun 27 2011 at 6:05 PM Rating: Decent
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xypin wrote:
Raelix wrote:
Are you now advocating that 'average' is okay as long as you can kill a single NM and lot the drops before your 120 minutes expire? I've seen an Amarok take 45 minutes.
Adding mutliple ???s was one of the best thing SE ever did. Now my group, the "I'm going to take 50 mins" group, and the "pimped out 7 min" duo can all fight at the same time. People bitch when they lose their NM (though we return drops) or we pop ahead of them. Maybe if we didn't have to wait all @#%^ing day, things wouldn't be that way.

Except we're talking about Amarok, which isn't multipop, and the same can be said for all minibosses for the multipops you speak of.
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#22 Jun 27 2011 at 7:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
Finuve wrote:
xypin wrote:
I have a lv85 Redemption and it has treated me well. My only wish is that Quietus had skillchain properties similar to Torcleaver. My group has several other relic/empy weapon holders, so being able to make light AND darkness skillchains made a pretty significant difference.
Quietus has treated me well so far, kinda excited to get it off of redemption

Quietus closes Darkness off Evisceration, and you can close a second darkness off that. That's all I cared about when I was checking properties for myself. Haven't tested further, but this makes it just as useful as I noted Infernal Scythe's SC properties to be.

AshMulder wrote:
This, only time you ll see those big 5k torcleaver are agaisnt weak ass mobs and on anything that matters you ll do under 3k. But on the other hand say someone with a bad case of BNS used RR,apoc and griphon claw, he would still outdo 90% of the abyssea burned drks that melee with str rings...

That's exactly what I mean. I can push Quietus over 3k with Triple Attack procs and Griffon's Claw, but would much rather sling my 2-2.2k faster and with impunity. Difference is: Even without pure WS damage atma I can throw a 3k+ Souleater Guillotine and only be down 700hp.

I was outdoing the vast majority of DDs, even Crit WS jobs, with my multihit Infernal Scythe setup. It's no feat, just requires intelligence.

You should also probably know that I did a Penitence +2 over Redemption for hitbuild options (and instantaneity of getting it level 90 after WoE coins, and preference for doing Armageddon or Ochain first). I have little concern for +15% more melee damage when I'm WSing 20% faster on 5-hit. If a Caladbolg DRK isn't geared or can't be assed to 6-hit outside, I win. If a Redemption DRK isn't geared or can't be assed to 5-hit outside, I win. If they do press their hitbuild down, they only win because of delay as it crushes their actual total damage increase from ODD even lower. A portion of a portion (a percentage proc rate on only a percentage of damage) is always a smaller portion, so you could say that the pants-jizzing about 40% ODD is a little BNS as well, especially without DRK pushing much TP phase damage to start with.

Edited, Jun 27th 2011 1:13pm by Raelix


Quick question, do you take into account the aftermath of both empy weapons in all your comparison(since your using woe) Also wasn t there a thread on BG Talking about 5hit build not being as great as everybody though(cuz of that extra hit ,and please not i am not up to date into the whole 5hit/6hit whats best debate but remember reading about it in between 3 pages of why do woe mooches suck and why my e-peen is bigger than yours for 5pages)
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#23 Jun 27 2011 at 10:07 PM Rating: Decent
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AshMulder wrote:
Quick question, do you take into account the aftermath of both empy weapons in all your comparison(since your using woe) Also wasn t there a thread on BG Talking about 5hit build not being as great as everybody though(cuz of that extra hit ,and please not i am not up to date into the whole 5hit/6hit whats best debate but remember reading about it in between 3 pages of why do woe mooches suck and why my e-peen is bigger than yours for 5pages)

BG's '5-hit isn't worth it' discussion was purely based on WAR and the insane Double Attack rate they're reaching. This is when you have to start talking about rounds instead of hits, just like how OA2-4 scythe when 5-hit becomes a '2-round' build (averaging two hits per round, needing four hits to WS). Simply put: Dropping a hitbuild isn't as effective when reaching high multihit rates which DRK does not. This is often mis-cited by Caladbolg and Redemption DRKs for not seeking a lower hitbuild and it is patently false for (vanilla) DRKs.

Another common fallacy I hear is "Caladbolg makes better use of Aftermath because it has more hits per cycle". I'll just copypasta:

Myself@FFXIAH wrote:
We can estimate TP:WS split for practical purposes though. Here's where it gets funny, and we'll use the higher hitbuilds for simplicity:

Cala: Six 1.0s vs a 4.75
Rede: Five 1.0s vs a 3.0

Cala: 56:44
Rede: 62.5:37.5

"Wait!" you might exclaim, "what about WS mods and whatnot?" Well I can't throw an exact factor, but we can at least see trending. Let's just let WSing have 50% more oomph from base damage and attack.

Cala: Six 1.0s vs a 7.125
Rede: Five 1.0s vs a 4.5

Cala: 46:54
Rede: 53:47

Even if you double the damage of Quietus to reflect better mods and attack bonus coming into play, it just exactly matches Caladbolg's 46:54 split we've estimate here.

It's a dirty dirty estimate, but it's arranged in exactly the way Gradd stated it above. Caladbolg throws more hits but has such a stronger WS that the split still hangs heavy towards WS. "Huh, so this means a larger percentage of Redemption's damage comes from TP phase and so it actually benefits more from ODD only affecting TP phase?" Yes my young Padawan. This result is exactly the opposite of what was stated!

It's almost like I know what I'm talking about and can back it up with numbers and these two are just spouting Caladbolg Fanboy bullsh*t like the well trained parrots they are.


There is such a metric asston of misinformation about Torcleaver it makes me sick. Someone actually tried to convince me it couldn't ever miss last week. I've even been told Quietus is MND mod only because Torc is VIT only.

All of my math on Penitence versus Redemption was pre-90 when the latter didn't have Zelus Tiara to keep haste capped and be able to reach 5-hit. Some minor things have changed since then, like Redemption sneaking 1 point more fSTR now. You're right that HQ might pull ahead with ODD kicking in, but everything up to that point favors Penitence. Something to consider: I show above that nether weapon really gets past 50% TP phase split, so you'll never see more than +20% total damage from ODD. Really it's closer in parse to ~15-16% or less (I pull 36/64 split on my Penitence 5-hit), potentially lower with Torcleaver. Shaving from 6-hit to 5-hit on Penitence +2 easily knocks out 15% more total damage from WS rate (25% more WS damage, 60% WS phase split).

Suffice to say, the difference between 6-hit Redemption and 5-hit Penitence +2 is likely smaller than the difference between Caladbolg and Redemption.

"But what about 5-hitting the HQ?" You'll ask. Zelus Tiara, Askar Body, Tactical Mantle... seriously gimp sh*t and I would agree with it not being worthwhile as gone over in that other thread I think. Redemption still has a one-piece-less advantage over Caladbolg in reaching 5-hit versus the latter's 6-hit.

So if anything: While not superior, I would call Penitence +2's performance 'adequate'.

Edited, Jun 27th 2011 9:36pm by Raelix
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#24 Jun 29 2011 at 7:24 AM Rating: Good
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so for 5hit on redemption, how much STP is needed to make up for WSs having only about a 17TP return
#25 Jun 29 2011 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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5-hit Redemption set looks like:

redemption/rose/whiteT
zelus/bale/brutal/<earring you choose>
Askar/af3+2/rajas/hoard
tactical/goading/ace/ace


There's 37 STP in the set, add in the 15 from /sam for a total of 52 STP. You will need to WS in Rajas, Brutal and Rose Strap- all gear you'd be using anyway.
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#26 Jun 29 2011 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
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xypin wrote:
5-hit Redemption set looks like:

redemption/rose/whiteT
zelus/bale/brutal/<earring you choose>
Askar/af3+2/rajas/hoard
tactical/goading/ace/ace


There's 37 STP in the set, add in the 15 from /sam for a total of 52 STP. You will need to WS in Rajas, Brutal and Rose Strap- all gear you'd be using anyway.

after I get a rose strap....effing campaign
#27 Jun 29 2011 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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Aurum Body lets you lose the W.Tath and is a generally superior piece.

You can probably see where I'm coming from when I point out that Penitence would 5-hit on that gear alone without /SAM. Atheling, Calmecac, Core/Bomblet, and potentially swap Hoard for something on TP phase when /SAM, and be wearing more Bale +2 pieces for it's own ODD potential. IIRC the NQ GS is easier to 6-hit than Penitence is to 5-hit, so it carries the same advantage.

Also consider how much that set ruins your TP phase damage, which reduces the Aftermath ODD advantage. Caladbolg and Redemption's delays are definitely their Achilles' Heel.

Not bashing Emps by any stretch of the imagination, just pointing out that there isn't such a wide gulf between any of these weapons after all.

Edited, Jun 29th 2011 2:12pm by Raelix
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