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#1 Jan 20 2011 at 11:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Any thoughts on straight tanking mobs/nm as this combo with shield and counter defense?
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#2 Jan 20 2011 at 11:59 PM Rating: Default
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Paladin relies on mitigation through defense, counterstance makes defense = 0. No.
#3 Jan 21 2011 at 1:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Counter - stops incoming attack from ever landing, Counterstance base chance 50%

Shield Blocks from a pld stop more damage than loldefense ever does

depending on Atma choice( like roaring laughter), can increase countering up to 70%, if you got the WOTG +counter ER even more. The Monk forums still debating if there is an 80% cap on countering or if its higher.

is this gonna be main stream in any way? probably not, but it could be interesting.



#4 Jan 21 2011 at 10:40 AM Rating: Good
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Actually... I really like this idea.

MNK is already a common tank in Abyssea. Adding in counter and buffing it up with atma and gear, pld/mnk might actually be a really good tank for Abyssea.
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#5 Jan 21 2011 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I may be wrong, but I don't believe Shield Blocks and Defense are separate calculations. Then again, I can't seem to find any info on it, if they are, then I'm an idiot and PLD/MNK isn't quite as awful as I thought it would be.

What I'm saying is, I was under the impression shield blocks reduce damage taken after defense by a %, not that they reduce damage before defense and then defense is never calculated. For instance, as a RDM/BLU with Cocoon + Taco I often block attacks resulting in 0 damage, in other situations without those spells/food I block and take some damage still.

So although you may take only a tiny % of damage when you block normally, with 0 defense, I'm pretty sure block would help but you'd still be getting hit pretty hard. We often underestimate the value of defense, anyone who fights a lot of fomors knows how deadly attacks can become when your defense drops from ~450 to ~50. It's possible it's still viable, but you'd be taking more damage than a Monk that can get their counter higher, and dealing less damage, so it becomes a question of, why bother?
#6 Jan 21 2011 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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You're probably right in thinking that your defense plays a factor in shield blocks, though in addition to a % decrease, I'm willing to bet shield blocks also have a phalanx-type effect as well.

This combo is something I'll probably never get around to trying out and looking back, I think it's really only got a couple of uses along with that "fun factor." Only really NMs I can think that this would actually be a good combo is Chloris and the Attowha mandy.

Really though, anything else I'd even really consider going /mnk for, I'd just switch to my DD job and be 50x more useful. Of all the NMs I've fought, the ones that my LS actually needs a PLD for, I don't think I'd actually consider going /mnk just because there's a reason I'm being asked to go PLD.

I guess if PLD is your only job... but again, you'd probably be a better DD as /dnc or /nin, wielding swords, and abusing RR + vorpal.
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#7 Jan 23 2011 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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hmmm, as a mnk tank, and a pld, this seems like an interesting idea to me. When tanking on mnk, generally, the trick is having a sh*tton of HP, and a sh*tton of counter, and riding Perfect Counter and Counter Stance. Roaring Laughter is 10% counter, and I would assume Gnarled Horn is the same, given the difference in labeling between NM atma and Synthetic Atma. On a monk, Relic boots boost counterstance to 60%, merits to 65%, GH/RL to ~75%, and perfect counter averages to ~15% counter rate unless you're unlucky or fighting something that spams amnesia. On pld, I would wager that ~60% counter rate isn't harder, maybe 65%. Counterstance drops your defense to just what you get from your vit/2. Counter proc rate is based on weapon accuracy though, so how well it works will depend heavily on your gear and sword skill.

Pld loses out on the huge HP and B+ evasion that mnk has, but gains more durabilty from shield blocks and the ability to cure yourself more often then once every 5 minutes, and the benefit of phalanx to help damage reduction. Countering prevents spell interruption as well, so that's a plus. In addition, /mnk does not have provoke, but once you're on the hate table, boost builds a lot of hate when used every 15 seconds, and counterstance itself gives the same hate as shield bash, iirc.

If anything, pld/mnk would need a bit of a different tanking set than normal tanking, focusing on HP and Accuracy. You'd also want to have a pure VIT set up handy for chakra, which heals HP based on vit x2. If you have a whm that's on the ball, and have the right atma, maybe something like Gnarled Horn and Mounted Champion, it may need 3 atma to be really effective, so that you can throw in a refresh atma to help with the cure spamming you'll be doing on yourself.

Well, it's an interesting idea, if nothing else.
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#8 Jan 23 2011 at 11:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Like I said earlier not a combo for everyone, but with just /mnk at 45:

Just Counterstance - 50% of incoming damage countered if your accuracy is high enough. Well since acc caps at 95% its probably 47.5% possible counter but still thats enmity you don't lose bcause of shadows getting hit or taking damage.

Focus - with /mnk you'll have focus for a limited +acc bonus. Since you def will be crap i'd look to a DD food, pizza, sushi(if you lack 8/8 sword merits perhaps)

Chakra - will be fairly nice in Abyssea, assuming you have taken the time to get all 3 stat boosting Abyssite and the 6 hp/mp increasing atmas. I'd expect a Vit in the 150 or higher range which is a 300 point Chakra. every 5 min, but its a great O'Sh@t cure as long as not para or Amnesia.

Subtle blow 3 - -15% TP gain by mob. minor if more than 1 melee on mob, but interesting if nothing else.

On paper looks ok, I've done in on thf/mnk and nin/mnk for some fun times gathering 5 detectors up all at once and letting counter knock them done significantly. Completing entire campaign ops in 1 pull with a whm healer.
#9 Jan 24 2011 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Paladin relies on mitigation through defense


Uh...what?
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#10 Jan 27 2011 at 6:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Tepogue wrote:
On paper looks ok, I've done in on thf/mnk and nin/mnk for some fun times gathering 5 detectors up all at once and letting counter knock them done significantly. Completing entire campaign ops in 1 pull with a whm healer.


to be fair, I've done that mnk/war, solo Smiley: laugh
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#11 Jan 30 2011 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Lady Jinte wrote:
to be fair, I've done that mnk/war, solo Smiley: laugh


Probably easily done with PLD/MNK too, just have to cure yourself a bit more if Counter doesn't land as often. Would work really nice if you have a good Gsword too. I've done it a few times since I've gotten my Espafut +2 and it's quite amusing.
#12 Jan 31 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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On that note not to derail but how is Torcleaver? I don't really know anyone who has it, and was considering upgrading Espafut for sh*ts and giggles. How does it perform compared to CDC? I'm working on Almace as I play all 3 jobs that use it, but I'd consider grabbing Espafut for fun if it's good. I realize I should just "level a damage dealing class" and not try to deal damage on PLD. Getting that out of the way, how does it perform?

I can't help but feeling like Almace/Khanda+2 PLD/NIN would do more than Espafut+2 PLD/SAM(? or whatever one would want to sub to focus on 2h damage) by a good bit, but I have absolutely no idea. Of course I'm guessing Epsafut wouldn't feed nearly as much TP which might be a make or break in some situations.
#13 Jan 31 2011 at 10:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I haven't actually gotten a chance to use Torcleaver with a DD sub yet. I have on PLD/WHM in a low-man group where I was DDing and healing though. Did Manohra with RR/Apoc/Minikin and Yellow Curry and Crits were in the expected 400-500 range Torcleaver was averaging like 1500ish. I spiked into the 2000s fairly easily but I'd get some low end ones too.

Torcleaver's pretty reliant on STR and ATK though so PLD/WHM without a proper atma makes it harder to reach higher numbers. I'm also behind in Gsword skill, I have like 320ish after merits and I wasn't using the high end attack food so I definitely wasn't getting the most of it. Even considering PLD's lack of attack traits, I can see it doing pretty nice even for us though. Outside of Abyssea, I've actually spiked close to 2k or over it in Walk of Echoes. Unfortunately, no screenshot.

As for CDC, I don't know as I don't have it. I'd guess that CDC would provide the higher WS damage in Abyssea because it's a crit-based but I assume the DOT off just the Espafut would be better as DMG on the comparable weapons is 2 to 1 (i.e. Calaboldg Lv 90 is 120 DMG whereas Almace Lv. 90 is 61 DMG). Can PLD/SAMs do a 6 hit with a Gsword?



Edited, Jan 31st 2011 8:19pm by Shouta
#14 Feb 01 2011 at 2:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Well for me it'd be Almace v Espafut, no way I'm bothering to make a Caldabolg. According to wiki Torcleaver is 60% VIT mod, and as it is not a multi-hit from what I understand attack plays a less significant role, though I'm not a melee focused player so my knowledge of melee is sometimes iffy.

I actually think even with Atma, Almace/KhandaOa2-4x would beat out Espafut in DPS, but I'd like someone to math me into a hole and tell me I'm wrong. I just see it being way more TP feed for the enemy, thus in any situation where it was actually difficult and I somehow wanted to do DPS on PLD, espafut would be the best choice. (This is obviously an imaginary situation.)

To answer your question about #hit builds on PLD though, yes, fairly easily with the Store TP GSD which is what I'm currently making just for procing and messing around as I have way more important trials to work on before I make a really great GSD.

But here's the 6 hit build for PLD/SAM using a none store tp GSD: http://www.ffxiah.com/members/item-sets?id=198180

Aurum Cuirass being the hardest thing to obtain. (Note anything on there that doesn't have store TP is just whatever other random thing I personally would throw in there because I have or will soon get, feel free to just pay attention to the store TP pieces) Personally as a career RDM I have Tamas, so if I ever did make Espafut and want to do a 6 hit build I'd have to drop it for Rajas, if they come out with more hybrid rings maybe I'll eventually be able to let go of my inventory saver.

Ignore the Store TP values on the right, it counts Rose Strap as "In Campaign" it's 26 total store TP. In Abyssea if you're focused on DD you could potentially with 2 +20 store tp atmas drop it to a 5 hit build even, Scorpion Queen + Sun Eater or something, but it's arguable how useful that is.


Edited, Feb 1st 2011 12:36am by RamseySylph
#15 Feb 01 2011 at 3:08 AM Rating: Good
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Attack is actually very important for Torcleaver because it does not receive the attack boost that many other 1-hit WS's receive.
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#16 Feb 01 2011 at 7:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Just like xypin says, it doesn't receive the bonus so attack is really important for Torcleaver. And especially since we don't get any of those traits naturally, PLDs don't have any real leeway in stacking VIT I think. Even popping Last Resort on DRK showed a fairly sizable boost from when I wasn't using it.

A DW build with Almace/KhandaOA2-4 may (or perhaps probably) beat the Espafut but yeah, that's some serious TP feed, I think. Plus, you kind of the potency off of DA and TA atmas, no? AoA is freaking ridiculous for 2H weapons with its TA bonus. Caladbolg probably would only be scarier.

I'll give PLD/SAM a shot sooner or later with some fixed up gear to see how it works out. Will be nice when the update comes so I can cap GSword and get the missing attack.
#17 Feb 13 2011 at 9:42 PM Rating: Decent
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a pimped out Torcleaver build, prioritizing Str, Vit, and Atk, would probably look something like this:

Ammo: Bibiki Shell (Vit+4)
Head: Twighlight Helm (Str+10 Vit+10 Atk+25)
Neck: Fortitude Torque (Vit+5)
Ears: +str/vit earrings
Body: Ares Cuirass (Str+12 Vit+12 Atk+24) or Shadow Breastplate (Str+10 Vit+10 Atk+25)
Hands: Creed Gauntlets +2 (Str+11 Vit+11)
Ring1: Spiral Ring (Str+5 Vit +5)
Ring2: Rajas Ring (Str+5 (If needed for an x-hit build))
Back: Forager's Mantle (Str+3 Atk+15)
Waist: Warwolf Belt (Str+5 Vit+5)
Legs: Ares legs? (Str+6 Vit+6)
Feet: Rutter Sabatons (Str+3 Vit+2 Atk+5) or Ares Sollerets (Vit+3 Atk+7)

A non-god gear scenario set up would probably look more like:

Ammo: Bibiki Shell (Vit+4)
Head: Perle Salade (Str+5 Vit+5 Atk+7)
Neck: Chiv. chain?
Ears: +str/vit earrings
Body: Byrnie +1 (Str+5 Vit+5 Atk+25) or Byrnie (Str+3 Vit+3 Atk+20) (lolbyrnie...)
Hands: Creed Gauntlets +1 (Str+7 Vit+7)
Ring1: Spiral Ring (Str+5 Vit+5)
Ring2: Rajas Ring (Str+5 (If needed for an x-hit build))
Back: Forager's Mantle (Str+3 Atk+15)
Waist: Warwolf Belt (Str+5 Vit+5)
Legs: Valor Legs? (Str+5)
Feet: Rutter Sabatons (Str+3 Vit+2 Atk+5)

In either case, mixing/matching as needed for an x-hit build/what you have access too.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#18 Feb 13 2011 at 9:56 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks. Looking to put together a Torcleaver set now.

For the neck/waist pieces, I'd think the ws gorget/belts would be better though than your typical gear.


Also... Forager's or Atheling Mantle?

Also also, ares legs are str+6 dex+6. No vit on them.

Edited, Feb 13th 2011 10:07pm by xypin
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