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Hate control... Flash II, Can I Have It?Follow

#52 Jan 30 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Good
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In his defense, that particular NM has crazy defense and/or damage reduction.
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#53 Jan 31 2011 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok looking at that NM then its possible his craptacular damage was from that. That door works for everyone though, all your other melee will also have **** damage (relative to a non super def mob). Really its not hard, stack haste + attack + crits and go to town, abyssea really is broken in that RR and Crour buffs make accuracy a non-issue.
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#54 Jan 31 2011 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Abyssea really is broken in that RR and Crour buffs make accuracy a non-issue.
This I agree with and I'm actually surprised there was such a wide range of VB dmg numbers in the post you quoted.
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#55 Jan 31 2011 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm at a loss as to how some people here are claiming that the core design of the Paladin class was not to be a tank, but to instead be a damage dealer with some defensive abilities.

Face the facts, the trinity system of tank, healer and damage dealer existed long before this game, and this game did nothing to try and change that or iterate on it in a tremendously meaningful way. Every single one of Paladin's abilities and traits focuses on mitigating damage taken by themselves and the group, not only that, most of them also increase enmity by a substantially larger amount than abilities of other classes.

When designing classes I am sure that there was a core concept they intended to achieve with each class, a specific role and style of play that they hoped to encourage and develop. We don't say that White Mage is primarily a damage dealer with a few support abilities thrown in because they can equip clubs and use hexa strike and cast Holy.

Now certainly, classes have abilities that allow them to perform multiple roles. Samurai has seigan which allows them to tank a bit but they are obviously designed to focus on dealing damage, focusing on the use of weaponskills, with obvious abilities to complement this from their 2 hour to Meditate and Sekkanoki and their Store TP traits.

Even with all the changes that have occurred in this game, it is still sitting nicely within the trinity system. In any sort of difficult fight, there is always a tank, a healer and a damage dealer. Sometimes who is performing each of these roles is blurred, sometimes these roles are shared, and flip flopped. Even when 2 RDM are kiting an NM, one is tanking (whoever has hate and is kiting) this may flip flop between the two of them on and off.

Some jobs have had their roles adjusted and altered over the course of the game. What began as a support/DD in Ninja became a tank. Some jobs had no clear role to perform like SMN where SE obviously wanted to implement a job from the series but had no distinct vision about what to do with it. Paladin has had no changes to the class to indicate that there was ever an intention to separate it from it's original role, which was and still is tanking.

Paladin was always the king of Enmity their role was to mitigate the damage taken by the rest of the party and focus it on themselves. Simply increasing PLD's DPS to match NIN or MNK does nothing but make the classes more homogeneous, which is I am sure the opposite of what anyone actually wants. The reason FFXI keeps me occupied is how many classes there are and how different each one plays.

People talked about making cover passive, and giving abilities to mitigate damage taken by the party, I agree with this approach alongside some more enmity tools. Something like Subdue to reduce enmity for others on the hate list, a trait that acts like cover would be nice, but it would have to be a chance to proc, hopefully a rather high chance, but an all the time cover would be overpowered.

Paladin should make it easier for other jobs to get in close and deal damage without worrying about getting hit, to make up for the fact that their damage won't rival NIN or MNK. Some kind of redirect or absorb buff for allies would be nice in this case. Not something to mitigate damage dealt to allies in a way that would cause people to want PLD in the PT to enhance another class tanking, but an ability that would help the PLD prevent DD from getting wasted by AoEs.
#56 Feb 01 2011 at 8:06 PM Rating: Decent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
WTF kind of gear / atma are you using? Seriously I put out bigger numbers with Versa/M.Kris on my WAR/NIN @296 skill. And when I said 2K vorpals I was referring to the average, the "highest" type numbers are usually 3K. Are you turtleing up using taco's and HP / defense atma? Our guy usually loads our RR / Apoc / then GH SA or VV depending on his mood, eats meat and has some pretty bad a$$ WS gear.


The Atmas were: RR, VV, and probably Impregnable Tower. My character has full sword merits and capped sword skill. Don't think I was using food that night, but I doubt Yellow Curry Bun (my typical food) would bring up the number to 2k.

Gears I listed earlier, but here it is again:

Honorbound
Joyeuse (switched to shield for NMs)
Incantor Stone

Askar Zucchetto
Soil Gorget
Suppanomimi
Brutal Earring

Haubergeon +1
Hecatomb Mittens
Spiral Ring
Strigoi Ring

Amemet Mantle +1
Potent Belt (or Sentry Belt; not sure which)
Askar Dirs
Perle Solerets


Not that I think you're intentionally inflating your WAR's numbers, but if you're eyeballing, it's really easy to overestimate your damage output. If you want to talk about the average damage, really should use a parser.


Here's a different NM from last night: Koghatu. My set up was identical, except that I had the Sentry Belt on for sure, and had food (Yellow Curry Bun) on maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of the time? (I had capped accuracy on this NM, by the way.)

    Vorpal Blade 
+     467:    1 
+     486:    1 
+     506:    1 
+     513:    1 
+     552:    1 
+     583:    1 
+     609:    1 
+     640:    1 
+     655:    1 
+     677:    1 
+     692:    1 
+     706:    1 
+     708:    1 
+     783:    1 
+     784:    1 
+     789:    1 
+     791:    1 
+     792:    1 
+     816:    1 
+     848:    1 
+     864:    1 
+     865:    1 
+     895:    1 
+     896:    1 
+     923:    1 
+^    927:    1 
+     952:    1 
+     981:    1 
+     985:    1 
+     992:    1 
+    1000:    1 
+    1053:    1 
+    1064:    1 
+    1083:    1 
+    1109:    1 
+    1117:    1 
+    1172:    1 
+    1177:    1 
+    1205:    1 
+    1215:    1 
+    1222:    1 
+    1224:    1 
+    1226:    1 
+    1254:    1 
+    1267:    1 
+    1273:    1 
+    1295:    1 
+    1299:    1 
+    1331:    1 
+    1467:    1 
+    1540:    1

The average Vorpal Blade was 946.47, and I had a shield on for vast majority of the fights.

On Mechanical Menace (the NQ counterpart), the WS averaged to 1212.33 (43 samples). The near by Spectator (NQ Spheroid) we used to build lights yielded 1721.82 average (32 samples).

All these numbers were produced with Honorbound, one of the higher Dmg rating Sword a PLD can use (it ties with Badelaire +2, the WoE/Kindred Crest version of Almace). While my WS set isn't the greatest, I just can't see Vorpal Blade hitting 2k average on the NMs I've fought.

I suppose if Impregnable Tower were to be switched out for Sanguine Scythe and if I had food on full-time, I'd break 1k average on Koghatu, may 1.1k or even 1.2k. But 2k? That's just too far away.

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#57 Feb 01 2011 at 8:48 PM Rating: Good
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Apoc Atma or Alpha/Omega would have been a large improvement. The two most important factors with VB is the number of hits (thus indirectly accuracy) and your critical hit rate. Critical hit damage is important as well, but not sure if it's worth it to use atma for more than what RR gives over say a high triple attack rate.
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#58 Feb 01 2011 at 10:12 PM Rating: Default
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Should WS in Perle body at the minimum, and V helm would help. Hands Alkys/Heafoc would be better if you have RR on.

And Above is correct, Apoc or A/O will do more than capping crit hit damage.

Edited, Feb 2nd 2011 12:13am by Neisan
#59 Feb 02 2011 at 3:36 AM Rating: Good
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Edit: Ifrit - food should always be applied. Even if its just a meat mithkabob. Theres still more attack on a lowly mithkabob then there is on 99% of atma. Yellow Curry bun is the standard, but I spam mithkabobs at times. Also, w/o something as basic as food, those numbers dont mean much. Although im agreeing with most the stuff your saying.


saevellakshmi wrote:
Use the same atma that the DD's are using and you'll put out the same damage (or close to it) that they do.


yeah - no lol. If that were the case, pld would still be sought after.

The main reason MNK's are prefered is becasue A) they can tank, and B) their DMG output is huge compared to other DD's with the typical RR/VV/Apoc setup.

The main problem I see, is PLD has always been the big fight tanks, alliance battles with 1-2 pld's etc. The games changed now so you need less than 6 ppl to complete content (even poorly geared players are included in this). Hates not the real issue here, because even if a PLD could hold hate would ppl still use it? Probably not becasue the job would still slow them down.


~Abyssea is just an interim event to the 99 cap, the game changes every 5 levels - it wouldn't suprise me if SE does something so everybody wants PLD's and DRK's by 99.

Edited, Feb 2nd 2011 4:43am by Sandmasterr
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#60 Feb 02 2011 at 4:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dual wielding adds a fair bit of damage. Per my calculations, capping out attack (Berserk, Bison Steak) while single-wielding Honorbound, should reach an average weaponskill of 1650 vs lvl 97 XP-type target mobs with RR+GH+Apoc atma. Adding Joyeuse to that (and using Stalwart's instead of Berserk) increases the average to almost 2050.

So yes, no surprise you can get higher averages with dual-wielded weapons than a pld using a single weapon + shield.

On the other hand, for DPS purposes, even dual-wielding, there's a huge gap between pld and other jobs. A mnk using Ascetic's Fury can hit ~300 DPS with +2 AF3, and 270 with +1, with minimal buffs (add 50 DPS if using WoE Smite). With the same buffs/atma/target mob, a pld tops out at about 225 DPS while dual-wielding, 145 while single-wielding (as /nin), and drops another 10% if using AF3+2 head and body instead of Zelus/Perle (add 35 DPS if using WoE CdC).

Basically, a mnk is doing 33% more than a dual-wielding pld, and about twice as much as a sword & shield pld.


Best offensive gear setup I can work out at the moment:

TP:
Honorbound
Shamshir +2 (str)

Flame Sachet
Zelus
Fortitude
Brutal
Suppanomimi
Perle
Creed +2
Rajas
Hoard
Atheling
Goading
Creed +2
Creed +2


WS:
Flame Sachet
Twilight
Gorget
Brutal
Aesir
Twilight
Perle
Rajas
Spiral
Forager
Ele.Belt
Tumbler
Perle

Atma: RR+GH+Apoc

Overall DPS (including Enlight): 224

Using full Creed +2 for TP phase drops DPS to 201, which is about a 10% loss.

Weaponskills should average ~1920 without extra attack buffs.


So there's potential for pld to be better than commonly accepted, but it hits a hard ceiling pretty quick. If you want to make use of pld's strongest defense, its shield, it's not going to be anywhere close to a regular DD job in damage output, and that vast gulf absolutely kills it in terms of maintaining hate.


Of course you could always try to work a different path. Pld gets almost all the same red proc weaponskills as war (only missing Shadow of Death), has access to Cataclysm on staff for cata-burn, and is generally quite self-sufficient (ie: doesn't have to be baby-sat like war). It would seem to be a good choice to pair with nin for farming key items as an alternative to war.
#61 Feb 02 2011 at 1:42 PM Rating: Default
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Why is everyone only using "MNK" as their reference? MNK is the single highest DPS job in the game, it was @75 and it only got stronger since then due to how H2H skill scales. Using this logic then MNK's should be the only job used period because they can do the most damage ~and~ tank.

Quote:
the trinity system of tank, healer and damage dealer existed long before this game


This system is purely player invented and large complete and utter BS. Where do jobs like DNC / WAR / MNK / THF / NIN / DRG/mage / BLU and even RDM fit into that? PLD doesn't have a "damage -10%" hidden JA, they get the same from gear that any WAR or DRK gets. Not a single one of their JA / JT take away from offense, their abilities only increase their defense side. If anything people should be arguing that PLD's lack of offensive JA/JT is what hurts them, they must rely on subs to increase offensive ability's past what is already built into the job. This leaves them with a lower attack then a WAR or DRK of comparable level.

And if we're looking at maximum damage possible look to the following alternatives.

Main: Badelaire +2
Sub: The OaT sword has better DPS over time then either a Shamshir or a Joyeuse (D48 Delay 264 1.4 proc rate)
Body: Grim Cuirass, don't need the acc from any body only pure attack, 2% crit when your already at 70%+ shouldn't be much.

Atma
SA / RR / GH

Gives retarded attack / crit rates vs harder stuff, about the only thing I can see if switching SA out with Apoc for the TA but now your running low on attack, possibly ensure using higher meat might balance it out a bit.

Ultimately the argument isn't that PLD is ~better~ then other melees (especially the highest ranked DPS job in the game bar none), is that it is comparable to others while still being self sufficient and hard to kill. PLD's can use damage just as effectively as a WAR, BLU or a MNK to hold hate and should be doing this. I would dare to say PLD is the better "dangerous" NM tank due to their ability to regain hate quickly after a NM does a hate reset move and is running after your BLMs. This become more of an issue then anything else, the tank never dies but the NM likes to zap hate then go running around. A PLD's ability to modify his damage level while still holding hate is a positive when your trying to proc !! on a tier II and don't want to kill it too fast.

This game is no longer about "how fast can you kill something", SE changed all that the moment they introduced the "!!" procing system. Honestly we could zap just about any NM we wanted to in a few min (most under 60s) without brewing if we wanted to. having a MNK instead of a PLD would make absolutely zero difference in kill time.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#62 Feb 02 2011 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
This system is purely player invented and large complete and utter BS.


The fact that FFXI includes support classes and hybrids that don't fit neatly into the mold does not mean the system is not there. You've just proven you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and everything you say has essentially become irrelevant. You cannot deny the trinity system as a mainstay of MMORPG design, nor as an integral piece of design in FFXI. It's an accepted paradigm, not just by players, but by developers as well.
#63 Feb 02 2011 at 7:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
TP:
Honorbound
Shamshir +2 (str)

Flame Sachet
Zelus
Fortitude
Brutal
Suppanomimi
Perle
Creed +2
Rajas
Hoard
Atheling
Goading
Creed +2
Creed +2


WS:
Flame Sachet
Twilight
Gorget
Brutal
Aesir
Twilight
Perle
Rajas
Spiral
Forager
Ele.Belt
Tumbler
Perle


I'm not nearly as good with the math as yourself, wouldn't the twilight body trump what the perle body does though? You had it listed in your ws gear but not in your TP gear. Maybe my perception of DEX and crit isn't correct, but I was under the assumption that you get a 0.5% +crit rate after a certain amount of dex over the mobs agi; in abyssea with RR this should be simple enough to do and as such the DEX from Twilight would outdo the 4 dex/2 crit rate on perle. Deep down I know this isn't true otherwise atma of the omnipotent would almost always be used, but regardless of that I can't see how perle could be a better option over the twilight body.


Quote:
Of course you could always try to work a different path. Pld gets almost all the same red proc weaponskills as war (only missing Shadow of Death), has access to Cataclysm on staff for cata-burn, and is generally quite self-sufficient (ie: doesn't have to be baby-sat like war). It would seem to be a good choice to pair with nin for farming key items as an alternative to war.



PLD + NIN duo combo for farming key items works great and they compliment each other well, despite 'sharing' the same role. I have a NIN friend that we duoed a fair chunk of Briareus.

To add to this thread about hate control/dmg... I finished Almace (85) on Monday. I haven't gotten a whole lot of time to test its inner workings out... might not be able to get to that until next weekend. I will say this though, inside Abyssea that sword is an absolute game changer for PLD. I still have a long ways to go on my tp gear and ws gear.

That being said, I won't say that I outdamage a class that's made for damage dealing like MNK or NIN even without them having an empryean weapon, however it feels like the 'jump' in damage is more then what other jobs might get.

Keeping that in mind, having this sword is great, but because of the way the game is currently structured I wouldn't say it makes PLD a more desirable tank then a MNK or NIN or THF in a plenty of situations. If I'm doing Buhkis for example, I'd have a tough time keeping up shadows on PLD due to his double attack and thus would have to rely on shield blocks for damage mitigation, as opposed to a NIN or THF who would have a decent evade rate even in their dmg sets, or a MNK who would just counter those hits for more dmg. Thus I would prob go /war. The problem now becomes that I can't maximize both my damage output and my damage reduced to match the jobs mentioned above, and this is with an Aegis as my shield.


Long story short, simply increasing the damage output a PLD can do isn't going to fix the current issue. Some other forms need to be looked into as has what's been suggested in this thread. In the mean time however, going pretty much all out DD is the way to go to justify a spot in the party.
#64 Feb 02 2011 at 8:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Kinematics wrote:
Dual wielding adds a fair bit of damage. Per my calculations, capping out attack (Berserk, Bison Steak) while single-wielding Honorbound, should reach an average weaponskill of 1650 vs lvl 97 XP-type target mobs with RR+GH+Apoc atma. Adding Joyeuse to that (and using Stalwart's instead of Berserk) increases the average to almost 2050.

So yes, no surprise you can get higher averages with dual-wielded weapons than a pld using a single weapon + shield.

Whoa. It's hard to believe a low DMG rating like Joyeuse can add that much to WS output. lol. But, since I don't understand the damage calculation enough to do the math on my own, I'll just have to trust you. (I am curious as to how many extra hits can Double Attack and Triple Attack tag on to Vorpal Blade, though; I would have thought that adding a Joyeuse would cause at most one extra hit.)

Oh, RR = Razed Ruins, Apoc = Apocalypse, but what is 'GH'? Gnarled Horn?

In any case, if I may interpret what you wrote in the context of "2k Vorpal Blade" debate, a PLD who claims to average 2k WS pretty much would need those Atams and this:
Kinematics wrote:
Best offensive gear setup I can work out at the moment:

TP:
Honorbound
Shamshir +2 (str)

Flame Sachet
Zelus
Fortitude
Brutal
Suppanomimi
Perle
Creed +2
Rajas
Hoard
Atheling
Goading
Creed +2
Creed +2


WS:
Flame Sachet
Twilight
Gorget
Brutal
Aesir
Twilight
Perle
Rajas
Spiral
Forager
Ele.Belt
Tumbler
Perle

Atma: RR+GH+Apoc

Overall DPS (including Enlight): 224

Using full Creed +2 for TP phase drops DPS to 201, which is about a 10% loss.

Weaponskills should average ~1920 without extra attack buffs.


Or close that, in order to get ~2k Vorpal Blade average on the typical NQ monsters--and thus quite a bit less than 2k on NMs. Is that a reasonable interpretation?

If so, those who claim to see PLDs dishing out 2k Vorpal Blade average on most NMs need to run KParser and stop trusting their eyes.

As for myself, I'm sure I'll be collecting Twilight gear (and Creed +2) sooner or later, but that will take a while. (I'm not sure it's a good idea to eat food all the time, though; it depends on how many people are proc'ing lights and how often the monster is casting or using TP moves--more damage isn't always good.)


Kinematics wrote:
So there's potential for pld to be better than commonly accepted, but it hits a hard ceiling pretty quick. If you want to make use of pld's strongest defense, its shield, it's not going to be anywhere close to a regular DD job in damage output, and that vast gulf absolutely kills it in terms of maintaining hate.

I'm definitely bumping into this, but I would still maintain that the root cause of PLD's waning popularity is that there is no need for a real tank anymore, because the monsters are not dangerous or damaging enough to DDs--you don't even need more healers when you switch out the PLD, so there's no gain in putting in a job which is designed (from job traits to gear selection to available weapons) to output less damage than those "real DD jobs".



Kinematics wrote:
Of course you could always try to work a different path. Pld gets almost all the same red proc weaponskills as war (only missing Shadow of Death), has access to Cataclysm on staff for cata-burn, and is generally quite self-sufficient (ie: doesn't have to be baby-sat like war). It would seem to be a good choice to pair with nin for farming key items as an alternative to war.

There's a thought. Though, that means now I have to find time to skill up all those things. /sigh


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#65 Feb 02 2011 at 10:44 PM Rating: Good
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Off handing any reasonable weapon adds a large boost to your damage simply because it adds an extra hit to your weaponskill, even if you have a low dmg weapon like joyeuse. Plus, I think that hit qualifies for an extra double/triple attack proc.

Max number of hits in a weapon skill is 8, this means you have 4 hits from VB, 1 from off hand weapon, and 3 "extra" hits that can come from double/triple attack.

Edited, Feb 2nd 2011 10:45pm by xypin
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#66 Feb 11 2011 at 9:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
This system is purely player invented and large complete and utter BS. Where do jobs like DNC / WAR / MNK / THF / NIN / DRG/mage / BLU and even RDM fit into that? PLD doesn't have a "damage -10%" hidden JA, they get the same from gear that any WAR or DRK gets.
The system is actually an integral part in class design when talking about development in general. The problem in FFXI is that the devs tried to create a lot of leeway because this game happens to have a subjob system in place (nevermind how much that concept fell on its face when it came to certain jobs). That's what you're looking at here. The system is still in place, and yes, some of those outliers have a harder time than those who easily fit into the trinity. Poor design for those outliers is to blame, really.

On the topic of hate, I'll simply say something that has probably already been stated: If you want to improve hate control the hate cap needs to be modified in some way that is inherent to PLD, while figuring out a way to natively reduce emnity lost when hit. An additional spell isn't going to do much once you cap hate. Mostly because one wouldn't be able to make great use of it without a way to monitor hate (barring Libra, of course).

Edited, Feb 11th 2011 10:32pm by Ruisu
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#67 Feb 15 2011 at 10:43 AM Rating: Decent
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What about something like this:

Eyes on Me:
All enmity gain by a player in the party is taken by the PLD. Also, eliminates hate caps. After effect is over hate decreases normally.

Duration: 5 seconds
Recast: 3 minutes

So your DDs would have 5 seconds to go crazy with the PLD getting all the hate. It would also allow you to go over the caps and have a period of time where all the mobs attention is on you, but after a bit the effect is gone.
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