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Hate control... Flash II, Can I Have It?Follow

#27 Jan 20 2011 at 6:41 AM Rating: Decent
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The way our shell handles this situation is that the DD's just don't fight the NM (obviously tier II or higher) until after we've proced all the !! we want. We make them TP on nearby mobs and only go in to WS to proc red / blue !! but otherwise stay away to prevent the hate issue. After we've proced everything we want, the LS leader gives the word and the DD's go hog wild and kill the **** thing in under 15s. We also encourage our DD to use weak a$$ weapons when trying to proc !!'s so as not to create much enmity or kill the NM too fast (this becomes a serious problem once several of your members have emp weapons or just lots of +2 gear). They really shouldn't be trying to do damage when their using WS's like RLB / Blade Ei / Retribution / Black Halo.
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Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
#28 Jan 20 2011 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
The way our shell handles this situation is that the DD's just don't fight the NM (obviously tier II or higher) until after we've proced all the !! we want. We make them TP on nearby mobs and only go in to WS to proc red / blue !! but otherwise stay away to prevent the hate issue.

You may be missing the point; the real complaint is that PLD isn't better than other jobs at keeping the monster glued as of now--there's no significant advantage of using a PLD to hold the monster while other DDs to TP up instead of, say, using a MNK to hold the monster while other DDs get TP off of NQ mobs.


A bit old, but:
hitoseijuro wrote:
IfritnoItazura wrote:
It's also not right that MNKs with HP Atma have better survivability than PLDs without adversely impacting the healers. Hence, nerfs needed. (*Ducks the bricks being thrown*)

Just saying...

How do you figure? Monks always been a better defensive job than PLD when played right. They have naturally more HP(you dont need any HP atmas in abyssea atm) than PLD, more PDT gear than pld, counter > shield proc, enough fire resistance gear to tank most mobs outside of Tiamat(not including augmented items). I think the only part they suffered is in the magic damage department, their gear is more limited.

Well, the key part of my phrasing was "without adversely impacting the healers."

Counter is better than shield block when it happens (unless you look at TP gain), but happens less often than shield block without Counterstance (I think?). Per hit, MNK takes more damage than PLD on average(*), and even more so with Counterstance, which back then in Lv.75 era was a real concern since MP was much harder to come by and WHMs couldn't rotate between Cure VI and V.

(*) I don't know exactly why, but MNKs taking more damage per hit than PLDs on average is what I see in parses.

Anyway, I'm not wishing SE would kill DD tanking in general (or MNK tanking in particular), but just make it so there's more of a trade off when compared to a PLD tank. That's where the condition of "without adversely impacting the healers" plays a part--it should be the case that if using DD tanks, the players should need more healers/support in the alliance mix.

Right now, that isn't happening, which is one reason why the playerbase is taking such of dim view of PLD tanking.

Also, "DD x3, support, and healer" is always better than "Tank, DD x2, support, and healer" unless the target monster has a very good chance of taking down the first team but not the second. Without that threat and the difference in danger, it's a bit pointless to discuss how to make PLD the better job for that tank position instead of MNK. /sigh




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#29 Jan 20 2011 at 12:15 PM Rating: Decent
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IfritnoItazura wrote:
TheHolyDragoonSeraphus wrote:
Another welcome ability, call it 'Savior' would target a pt member and would decrease their current enmity, or maybe even absorb it, like a reverse trick attack or spirit surge-super jump


So, you want Accomplice/Collaborator? Or an Enmity Douse which can be used on party members? Or would you rather have Animus Minuo?

No offense, but I don't really want to see PLD becoming more like other jobs. (Kind of like what SCH is doing yet again compared to RDM, making each less distinctive.)

* * *

Personally, I rather the Atmas be toned down a bit and the monsters made more dangerous, but people are stupidly afraid of 'nerfs' of any sort, especially when it comes to their precious damage output.

If there's no real threat, there's no need for a tank. If there's no need for a tank, there's no need for a Paladin. Hence, more dangerous monsters (and thus harder fights) are a good thing for Paladins.

If we need a Paladin to tank, though, the semi-AFK DDs shouldn't be able to out generate enmity from auto-attack while a PLD is using everything in his ******* short of SP. It's also not right that MNKs with HP Atma have better survivability than PLDs without adversely impacting the healers. Hence, nerfs needed. (*Ducks the bricks being thrown*)

Just saying...

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 2:01pm by IfritnoItazura


How about an ability like Subdue from FFTA's Paladin, in that game it was used to do small amounts of damage in order to get an enemy close to dead but not dead (thus allowing capture), in this case why not make it a mob targeted enmity douse type ability, that reduces threat for all others in its threat pool except for the user.

That wouldn't magically make Paladins the go-to tank, but it wouldn't hurt, and it would be a nice unique job ability. At the very least it'd make it so when a Paladin tanks the DDs could go balls-to-the-wall and then you could press the reset button on everyone's threat and continue on with your job. Unfortunately as has been stated repeatedly, most of the difficulty of the fights these days is staggering the enemy, not killing them. We can hold out hope for the next 9 levels.
#30 Jan 22 2011 at 12:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Ifrit, so what your really saying is not bring a PLD to a fight and instead bring a MNK? Just so we're clear on your position.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#31 Jan 23 2011 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Ifrit, so what your really saying is not bring a PLD to a fight and instead bring a MNK? Just so we're clear on your position.

Hmmm. My position?
1. At Lv.90, MNK/NIN has mostly surpassed PLD/NIN for tanking when fighting toe-to-toe--provided the player has the gear and skill for tanking on MNK/NIN. This is especially so in Abyssea. (At Lv.75, the case for PLD tank was more compelling, but Perfect Counter is ridiculous, and so is MNK's HP now.)
2. I dislike that situation; there should be more incentive to have a PLD to tank.
3. "More damage output" feels wrong for PLD's image, and it's not the right way to fix the situation--after all, why would anyone want DD jobs in alliance if PLDs can do just as much damage?
4. "More defense JA/JT/spells" would be nice, but not the right approach, since the problem right now really isn't that PLD lacks defense capabilities.
5. IMO, aside from MNK, the real problem is that monsters aren't all that threatening, and we don't need extra healer when a PLD is replaced by a "DD tank". When that's the case, players will gravitate toward "DD tank" for efficiency gain.

#2 and #5 are on my mind the most; there should be more incentive to have a PLD to tank. We don't need to be the one-and-only job capable of tanking on every monster, but the trade off between "DD tank" and "PLD tank" should be adjusted (a lot)--because right now there's almost nothing detrimental about using "DD tank" instead of "PLD tank" for toe-to-toe fights.


p.s. IfritnoItazura means "Itazura of Ifrit". Can use "Itaz" instead.


Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 1:09pm by IfritnoItazura
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#32 Jan 23 2011 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
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You realize that you've just reduced FFXI's job selected down to a handful with those statements. Under that logic very few jobs should be used, especially inside Abyssea because some else can always do better. This was something that screwed over many players prior to the level cap increase, SE designed abyssea explicitly to allow multiple job combination's and to have everyone be capable of contributing something significant. Your logic can be applied to all jobs, why bring a DRG, SAM or DRK when a WAR and MNK can (with the right gear / skill) do so much better? When you get down to it, there are only a few "best jobs" in this game, its just how things are designed.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#33 Jan 23 2011 at 10:00 PM Rating: Decent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
You realize that you've just reduced FFXI's job selected down to a handful with those statements. Under that logic very few jobs should be used, especially inside Abyssea because some else can always do better. This was something that screwed over many players prior to the level cap increase, SE designed abyssea explicitly to allow multiple job combination's and to have everyone be capable of contributing something significant. Your logic can be applied to all jobs, why bring a DRG, SAM or DRK when a WAR and MNK can (with the right gear / skill) do so much better? When you get down to it, there are only a few "best jobs" in this game, its just how things are designed.


You're taking the cold logic he is applying in stating what things are keeping Paladin from being sought after and filling it up with warm emotions.

I don't think Itazura is saying that Paladin should never be used, or that he dislikes Paladin, I don't get any sense that he is trying to be elitist (not that I even have an issue with this). It's actually a bit confusing what I'm trying to say.

Basically, I believe Itazura is pointing out the faults with Paladin and what needs to change so it is more sought after. He is not stating that players shouldn't use it, merely that they won't use it when given the choice.

If I can build a party of WHM,MNK/NIN,BLM,BLU,WAR and cover 90% of the procs I will need, why would I ever add another person in there, a Paladin? The thing is, the whole "Abyssea making it so other jobs can be used" is what kills Paladin, the content is easier, that's why you have to be less specific about what jobs you bring (for killing not proc'ing) because of this, Paladin isn't needed to tank, therefore bringing a Paladin (even if they are marginally more efficient at mitigating damage, which they're really not most of the time atm) that's one more person to compete with drops for very little gain.

If there were any pure tank class other than Paladin they'd be in the same boat right now, there's just no need for a tank. Paladin needs some unique benefit for parties to consider using one. If they just make everything hard again and only PLD and NIN can tank, I don't think that's a solution either. There needs to be some discrepancies though between someone who is focusing on tanking and someone who is DD/tanking, and some benefit to each approach.
#34 Jan 24 2011 at 4:46 AM Rating: Good
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The exact same logic that he used and you demonstrated can be used to lock just about ~any~ job out of ~any~ event. Nothing SE adds can possibly change that. PLD's problem isn't hate generation, that can be done easily enough, its that PLD specializes in reducing damage intake while the most efficient method of taking less damage is through faster kills. Essentially the best defense is with a better offense.

Also

Quote:
Also, "DD x3, support, and healer" is always better than "Tank, DD x2, support, and healer"


Was where the failure to understand kicked in. In FFXI "tank" is whomever generates hate and holds the monster in one spot. I've "tanked" as WAR, BLU and SAM before, this is nothing new. PLD is just a "DD" with set of defensive job abilities / traits along with cure IV and should be treated as such.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#35 Jan 26 2011 at 5:39 PM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Itazura is pointing out the faults with Paladin and what needs to change so it is more sought after. He is not stating that players shouldn't use it, merely that they won't use it when given the choice.

That's pretty close; people often still pick PLD out of comfort level with playing the job and the habit of having the job in alliance. What I said was SE has changed the system to favor not using PLD (even though the game doesn't prevent using PLD).


saevellakshmi wrote:
PLD's problem isn't hate generation, that can be done easily enough, its that PLD specializes in reducing damage intake while the most efficient method of taking less damage is through faster kills. Essentially the best defense is with a better offense.

I disagree (well, to some degree).

1. DDs can now generate enmity faster (and easier) than PLD, especially in Abyssea with DD atmas.
2. Faster kill is only possible if the players can stay alive by: A) Avoid the nastiest attacks, and/or B) able to survive the nasty attacks while you're putting out damage.

More damage will be taken with Berserk up; Hasso instead of Seigan means will more likely eating melee hits--do you really want your SAM/WAR to have Berserk and Hasso up when he's the monster's target?

While it's possible to take less total damage over the fight, often it's more important not to take a lot of damage in a short period of time--i.e balance between damage mitigation and damage output. What the players fight, the player's skills/equipment, and atma available to the particular players in question all should be factored in deciding where the balance lies.

Abyssea also throws a curve ball; since players often want to proc different weakness, it's actually bad to kill fast on many critters (as my LS found out after we started getting better DD atmas. lol).


saevellakshmi wrote:

Also

Quote:
Also, "DD x3, support, and healer" is always better than "Tank, DD x2, support, and healer"


Was where the failure to understand kicked in. In FFXI "tank" is whomever generates hate and holds the monster in one spot. I've "tanked" as WAR, BLU and SAM before, this is nothing new.

I look at tanking a bit differently; 'tank' is the person the alliance/party want the monsters to focus attention on, and so the members in the alliance/party (including the tanks) play in such a way which helps the tank keep the monsters' attention.

When melee DDs can keep monsters away from back line jobs from auto-attack alone and the alliance/party no longer cares which person is being attacked by the monster as long as it's one of many DDs, there's no tanking. It's somewhat circular, but 'tanking' exists only when the alliance behave as one (or more) of the people up front is a tank--and usually this tank person would worry a lot about damage mitigation along with enmity generation.

Maybe a shorter way of saying it is that 'tanking' isn't just what the tank does, but how the alliance together behaves.


saevellakshmi wrote:
PLD is just a "DD" with set of defensive job abilities / traits along with cure IV and should be treated as such.

I don't disagree with the details, but I'm against the overall tone of that statement. lol.

Here, say there's an NM with very nasty, un-dispel-able spikes all the time. Can anyone 'tank' that on WAR or SAM? Not really. PLD, RDM, and BLU? Maybe, if one has the skill and gear (and spells, in BLU's case). There's not much damage dealing going on from the PLD in that situation, and it's the same with when kiting.

Damage dealing isn't the core concept of Paladin.

I'm not saying ignore the DD potential of PLD, but Cure is something a PLD can use in every fight, while hitting the monster isn't desirable every time--nevermind spikes, there are many instances where the TP feeding interferes with proc'ing. (The THF in my LS tells me to get off the monsters all the time. lol. T_T )

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#36 Jan 26 2011 at 6:33 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Damage dealing isn't the core concept of Paladin.


This idea is 100% play created and has no bearing on the design of the job itself. PLD doesn't have a single ability that sacrifices offense for defense, contrary it comes with a 4 hit critical WS and can wear all the heavy DD orientated gear. Use the same atma that the DD's are using and you'll put out the same damage (or close to it) that they do. MP is a joke inside abyssea, I've face tanked many things as a WAR or BLU while dualboxing my 90WHM/RDM who spams cure V / VI on me. Between Azure + Rescuer + MM and convert my healer ~never~ ran close to empty, and this is without counting temp items as backups. You only need enough HP to survive the monsters higher attack / combo, otherwise your just like anyone else.

All a *tank* does is hold a monster in a specific location facing a certain way so that its moves and nasty status effects effect the least number of people possible. Its status effects that will kill you in Abyssea not damage, aoe mute / curse / doom type crap. All our LS PLD does is hold the mob while we try to proc stuff, he holds it by liberal use of "flash" and smacking the monster and doing 2K+ vorpals. DD's run in and proc different things with the specific instructions not to deal large amounts of damage *yet*. After that is done leader gives order and every turns the thing into a pile of dust, we like to use the terrorize effect of red !! as the time to do this.

Abyssea forces people to look at situations differently then they did before, its not the same FFXI so you must update your thinking to reflect this.
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RoTZ: Complete DM: O
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#37 Jan 27 2011 at 8:47 AM Rating: Decent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Quote:
Damage dealing isn't the core concept of Paladin.


This idea is 100% play created and has no bearing on the design of the job itself.

I've already mentioned two situations where PLD isn't doing damage at all, so we'll just have to agree to disagree here.


saevellakshmi wrote:
Use the same atma that the DD's are using and you'll put out the same damage (or close to it) that they do.

Haven't worked out that way for me. I can keep up (and out damage many) bad DDs easily enough, but good DD players do quite a bit more damage on their DD jobs if comparing to my PLD.


saevellakshmi wrote:
All a *tank* does is hold a monster in a specific location facing a certain way so that its moves and nasty status effects effect the least number of people possible.

Nah, you yourself just mentioned the need to be able to survive attacks. High max HP is one way, damage mitigation (say, Utsusemi, so you don't take all hits from some big multi-hit move; MDB/MDT- gear for big spells, etc.) is another.

There are other aspects to tanking as well, and as I've mentioned, they go beyond what any one person does or does not do.


saevellakshmi wrote:
All our LS PLD does is hold the mob while we try to proc stuff, he holds it by liberal use of "flash" and smacking the monster and doing 2K+ vorpals.

This set:

Honorbound
Joyeuse
Incantor Stone

Askar Zucchetto
Soil Gorget
Suppanomimi
Brutal Earring

Haubergeon +1
Hecatomb Mittens
Spiral Ring
Strigoi Ring

Amemet Mantle +1
Potent Belt
Askar Dirs
Perle Solerets


Can only get Vorpal Blade to over 1100 to under 1600 average on NQ mobs for me--and that's with Razed Ruins and Voracious Violet, plus full critical hit rate and sword skill merits. Damage averages on NMs aren't anywhere near those numbers (though that's partially because Joyeuse would be swapped out for shield).

While it's not the best possible gear set, those item aren't exactly junk either, I'd think. I can't even imagine the gear it'd take to get Vorpal Blade to 2k average on the NMs even with RR and VV equipped and eating Yellow Curry Bun.

Either your LS's PLDs have exceptional gear, or you're making up the "2k+ vorpals". (I don't mean that you intentionally lied, but I suspect you're eyeballing PLD's damage output rather than measuring it with a parser. And, just to make it clear, the vast majority of people's eyeballing is extremely inaccurate and utterly unreliable--you'd have to be an abnormal human being to be an exception.)


saevellakshmi wrote:
Abyssea forces people to look at situations differently then they did before, its not the same FFXI so you must update your thinking to reflect this.

/sigh Yeah, Abyssea really changed my PLD from being useful at most fights to quite optional at most. It's kinda demoralizing when it's better to use THF tank on most low-end NMs since a THF can build up Treasure Hunter while all my PLD can do to the monster is just damage.


Edited, Jan 27th 2011 6:52am by IfritnoItazura
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#38 Jan 27 2011 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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I fought Mothra in Attohwa earlier this week and had no problem busting out 2000+ dmg vorpals (I doubt they were the average, but they weren't uncommon either). Of course, this is probably with a triple attack proc'ing somewhere in the weaponskill. Still though, if you're never breaking 2000 damage on regular mobs, you're doing something wrong or you're just very unlucky.

As someone already mentioned, my linkshell does the same and only brings a PLD to hold the NM. I get to sit there spamming abilities, spells, and WS's to find out the proc's for red, grellow, and blue. Once we get the !! that we needed, the DDs tear the NM apart.

Also, unless I know the NM is going to be a pain in the *** or I need the extra stats from my shield (element resist sets GO!), I rarely start a fight with shield equipped.
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#39 Jan 27 2011 at 5:32 PM Rating: Decent
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xypin wrote:
I fought Mothra in Attohwa earlier this week and had no problem busting out 2000+ dmg vorpals (I doubt they were the average, but they weren't uncommon either). Of course, this is probably with a triple attack proc'ing somewhere in the weaponskill. Still though, if you're never breaking 2000 damage on regular mobs, you're doing something wrong or you're just very unlucky.

Vorpal Blade damage tends to be all over the place; I've seen mine as high as 2500 (and as low as 300) on an NQ monster, but 2k+ is definitely uncommon. Depending on the target, I've seen my average 1100+ for some targets on the low end, and 1500+ or some others on the high end. Anyway, I've listed my Vorpal Blade set (though the waist is now Sentry Belt); judge for yourself if I'm gearing the right way for WS or not.

As for NMs, my Vorpal Blades tend to be under 1k average. (The numbers for NMs aren't as reliable, since that's dealing with fewer samples.)

By the way, using peak numbers as evidence that PLD are somehow decent at DD'ing isn't a good approach; comparing the averaged WS numbers would be more useful, IMO, especially for something as finicky as Vorpal Blade.


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#40 Jan 27 2011 at 11:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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IfritnoItazura wrote:
saevellakshmi wrote:
All our LS PLD does is hold the mob while we try to proc stuff, he holds it by liberal use of "flash" and smacking the monster and doing 2K+ vorpals.
Either your LS's PLDs have exceptional gear, or you're making up the "2k+ vorpals".
IfritnoItazura wrote:
Vorpal Blade damage tends to be all over the place; I've seen mine as high as 2500 (and as low as 300) on an NQ monster, but 2k+ is definitely uncommon.
Consistency where?

Quote:
By the way, using peak numbers as evidence that PLD are somehow decent at DD'ing isn't a good approach; comparing the averaged WS numbers would be more useful, IMO, especially for something as finicky as Vorpal Blade.
Of course this is true, but then again, you'll never hear me call pld a good DD. I'm a proud supporter of PLDs changing jobs.
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#41 Jan 28 2011 at 6:33 AM Rating: Default
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Think he meant hitting 2k+ consistently (as in 2k+ was average Vorpal damage) while /nin was being made up, unless you have Perma stalwart's and quite a few crits, but I haven't used Vorpal after getting 3rd lunar so I'm not too sure if Apoc ups things but even before that I'll have to agree for most Pld 2k is most likely spike damage. The last parse I have of a pld on exp mobs had them averaging 1k flat on Vorpal with spikes upwards of 2k while /nin with Razed, not sure if they had any other atmas (their accuracy was pretty bad however tbh.... 72%). Not saying it isn't impossible but I highly suspect eyeballing is going on here.
#42 Jan 28 2011 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Peak damage from Vorpal Blade can be 2k+, sure, especially on NQ mobs. But peak damage isn't that useful of info to know; it is not a good indicator of a PLD's damage output ability.

Here, highest VB did last night against Audumbla for me was 1272 using that set I listed earlier (w/Sentry Belt for waist). But, how did I really do?

    Vorpal Blade 
      178:    1 
      368:    1 
      424:    1 
      499:    1 
      515:    1 
      557:    1 
      650:    1 
      709:    1 
+     724:    2 
      726:    1 
      754:    1 
      761:    1 
      765:    1 
 ^    815:    1 
      818:    1 
      835:    1 
      917:    1 
      928:    1 
      947:    1 
      974:    1 
     1006:    1 
     1044:    1 
     1109:    1 
     1158:    1 
     1216:    1 
     1231:    1 
     1234:    1 
     1272:    1


It's pretty unwieldy to list and discuss each and every one of these kinds of numbers, especially if the sample size is large. So, if we are to talk about "Vorpal Blade damage", it's only logical to talk about the average, which would be 822.69 for that particular run, and the relevant conditions under which they were done (vs. Audumbla; RR, VV; no food; the gear set listed--sometimes DW, sometimes not; and, 85.71% of the time with Dia on the NM).

From this and other NMs, I'm fairly confident in saying that PLDs with comparable gear to myself would not see 2000+ average Vorpal Blade on NMs. In fact, very small portions of Vorpal Blade numbers would stray into the 2000+ territory at all.

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 3:44pm by IfritnoItazura
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#43 Jan 28 2011 at 6:11 PM Rating: Good
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Are we arguing that 2000 dmg vorpals are impossible (less than 1% chance)? or just very rare and unlikely to ever see more than one on the same NM? or the full blown "2000 AVERAGE damage vorpals on (tough) NMs is impossible"?

Also, providing evidence that you were unable to reach 2000 damage VB on a NM that's known to have high defense or damage reduction really doesn't disprove anything.

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 6:13pm by xypin
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#44 Jan 28 2011 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm arguing the average paladin isn't going to be doing 2k Vorpals consistently (then again I'm convinced the average paladin is a waste of space better served on Pup but w/e). I haven't touched Vorpal since a 3rd lunar but from my own experience it has not been close to 2k average even with stalwart's but haven't tested it again after getting better atmas/hitting 90.

Although I do recognize he could improve by first using Perle hauberk on Vorpal and selling the Hauby+1, and Paladin has access to Varangian's/Zahak's and other heavy melee gear.

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 8:49pm by Neisan
#45 Jan 28 2011 at 8:32 PM Rating: Good
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Neisan wrote:
I'm arguing the average paladin isn't going to be doing 2k Vorpals consistently (then again I'm convinced the average paladin is a waste of space better served on Pup but w/e).
Then I've got no argument with you. Averaging 2000dmg VB is pretty tough since you need to consistently have 8 hits in VB for that to happen, especially on NMs in Heroes zones.

I also agree that PLD is a waste of space and almost everything my pt asks me to do, I could do on my loldrk.
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#46 Jan 28 2011 at 8:39 PM Rating: Decent
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xypin wrote:
Are we arguing that 2000 dmg vorpals are impossible (less than 1% chance)? or just very rare and unlikely to ever see more than one on the same NM? or the full blown "2000 AVERAGE damage vorpals on (tough) NMs is impossible"?

Well, I don't know if it's possible or impossible, but I'd phrase it as "Highly unlikely to see 2k average on NMs with what gears most PLDs have access to."


xypin wrote:
Also, providing evidence that you were unable to reach 2000 damage VB on a NM that's known to have high defense or damage reduction really doesn't disprove anything.

Didn't say it was proof of anything; more less listed all that trying to convince people that talking about peak damage (1272) isn't as useful as a discussion based on the average damage (822).

Also, keep in mind that I'm not really interested in peak damage; the average damage is what's important, and my original objection was against the idea that PLDs can do 2k (average) damage Vorpal Blade against (most) NMs. At the very least, I'd claim most PLDs can't come anywhere close to that.

Let me see what other NMs I've caught in recent parses:

<Monster>: <Vorpal Blade avg> (<num of Vorpal Blade used>)

Isgebind: 644.43 (7)
Upas-Kamuy: 978.94 (18)
Koghatu: 697.33 (3)
Bukhis: 464.13 (31)
Kutharei: 1048.50 (2)
Lord Varney: 849.50 (2)
Sippoy: 754.00 (2)
Yaanei: 808.25 (4)

* * *

Neisan wrote:
Think he meant hitting 2k+ consistently (as in 2k+ was average Vorpal damage) while

'Consistent' and 'average' are two different concepts.

Series A: 950, 1050, 1003, 997
If see you output like that, you can say that's fairly consistent; i.e. the numbers are close to each other.

Series B: 100, 2000, 500, 1400
In contrast, this series of numbers isn't consistent at all--the numbers are all over the place.

Both series, however, average to exactly 1000.

Now, if we try to use peak damage to get an idea of damage potential, we'd see Series A at 1050, while Series B at 2000. Is a WS outputing like B nearly twice as damaging as a WS like A? Of course not; the two have EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF DAMAGE IN TOTAL. If the sample sizes were much larger and both averages remain the same as each other, we'd can go on to claim that the two WS have the same damage potential, even though A is far more consistent than B.

Now, what kind of damage output does Vorpal Blade give? It's inconsistent--all over the place--very much in the spirit of Series B. So, if we want to discuss the damage potential of Vorpal Blade, it's important we use the average number instead of peak (or valley) numbers, because it's all too easy to get wow'ed by that one or two big numbers and forget that on average it's not a strong WS.
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#47 Jan 28 2011 at 10:59 PM Rating: Good
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IfritnoItazura wrote:
xypin wrote:
Are we arguing that 2000 dmg vorpals are impossible (less than 1% chance)? or just very rare and unlikely to ever see more than one on the same NM? or the full blown "2000 AVERAGE damage vorpals on (tough) NMs is impossible"?
Well, I don't know if it's possible or impossible, but I'd phrase it as "Highly unlikely to see 2k average on NMs with what gears most PLDs have access to."
Good, now I know why you keep giving me all these numbers. My reply (which I posted previously, but for some reason, you didn't read):
xypin wrote:
Neisan wrote:
I'm arguing the average paladin isn't going to be doing 2k Vorpals consistently (then again I'm convinced the average paladin is a waste of space better served on Pup but w/e).
Then I've got no argument with you. Averaging 2000dmg VB is pretty tough since you need to consistently have 8 hits in VB for that to happen, especially on NMs in Heroes zones.


The same claim you've made several times:
IfritnoItazura wrote:
...more less listed all that trying to convince people that talking about peak damage (1272) isn't as useful as a discussion based on the average damage (822).
But we've already talked about peak damage:
xypin wrote:
IfritnoItazura wrote:
By the way, using peak numbers as evidence that PLD are somehow decent at DD'ing isn't a good approach; comparing the averaged WS numbers would be more useful, IMO, especially for something as finicky as Vorpal Blade.
Of course this is true, but then again, you'll never hear me call pld a good DD. I'm a proud supporter of PLDs changing jobs.
...and you keep mentioning it, but no one is saying you're wrong.

IfritnoItazura wrote:
Also, keep in mind that I'm not really interested in peak damage; the average damage is what's important, and my original objection was against the idea that PLDs can do 2k (average) damage Vorpal Blade against (most) NMs. At the very least, I'd claim most PLDs can't come anywhere close to that.
You're the first person to even mention the statistic of "average damage Vorpal Blades," but somehow claim someone said it first...

IfritnoItazura wrote:
Neisan wrote:
Think he meant hitting 2k+ consistently (as in 2k+ was average Vorpal damage) while
'Consistent' and 'average' are two different concepts... [insert fightin' words]
Oi Oi, I'm pretty sure Neisan was on your side... do you even know what we're talking about?

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 11:00pm by xypin
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#48 Jan 29 2011 at 7:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Here is a route that could be taken with PLD, and it is different from some of the above ideas:

Instead of simply boosting PLD damage, and instead of giving PLD more of what it already has (that nobody needs), perhaps PLD could instead be modified to increase the DPS of a group as well as increase it's survivability in a new way. I suggest that one method of doing so would be to give PLD an aura that turns buffs cast on them into AoE, within a small radius around the PLD. This would allow a PLD to share Enlight and Phalanx with fellow front-liners, while also freeing up some back-line mage time (and MP, not that MP is currently an issue for anyone). This only makes sense if the AoE effect kicks in solely for white magic buffs. It should not work for JA buffs, nor for songs, blue magic, healing, and above all, absolutely not for ninjutsu.

On a separate train of thought, if you want to continue the tit-for-tat aspect of DRK and PLD, then give the same thing to DRK but only have their Aura only apply to black magic (spikes, boosts from Absorb spells, etc). Making Endark and Absorb TP into localized AoE spells would probably do a heck of a lot to promote DRK for parties, which is good since currently that job is not wanted for much of any traditional fighting. But I digress, and want to get back to the discussion of PLD.

The trick here would be to make it so that when others cast their spells, the enmity generated is equal to what they should produce for a standard single target buff that isn't getting Aura'd out into AoE (unless that spell is AoE naturally). However, when the PLD self buffs, his buffs should generate enmity based on each person that the Aura shares it with, meaning the PLD's Aura helps the PLD hold hate, but doesn't harm mages. (And for those following along still, if you just now thought about saying that the mages' AoE buffs should also be allowed to produce AoE enmity for the PLD... Take the next step and consider how that would create a stupid situation where mages spam the PLD with pointless buffs just to build hate, and then never consider mentioning such a horrible idea again.)

Assuming this idea is basically sound, the question then arises of whether or not enough single-target buffs exist to make PLD enticing enough for inclusion in a group. It's possible that another spell could be created (perhaps Regain for RDM?) with this buff-sharing Aura concept in mind. Separate from that possibility, another option might be to give PLD the ability to learn Stoneskin, which seems both appropriate and ideal for them in general as it has a natural CE loss prevention built into it.

So as far as the aura suggestion goes in particular, would a JT like this be enough (assume some tweaking) to make at least one PLD worth including in your groups, or is this suggestion just more pointless perks that nobody would care about anyway, like adding tits on a fish?
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#49 Jan 29 2011 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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I don't know if an aura would fix pld and make it a useful job, but would certainly be a good addition.

I'd also like to see cover changed so that anyone behind you is covered and not just some person you picked.
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#50 Jan 29 2011 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Well I used 2 different concepts to mean the same thing, that did deserve correcting, since for me when I say 'consistent' I typically do mean 'average' even though they aren't quite the same.

Quickest way to making paladin useful would be the impossible - make it a good damage dealer and make it so for X amount of time the monster focuses only on the paladin disregarding hate.

Edited, Jan 29th 2011 7:32pm by Neisan
#51 Jan 30 2011 at 6:53 AM Rating: Decent
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IfritnoItazura wrote:
Peak damage from Vorpal Blade can be 2k+, sure, especially on NQ mobs. But peak damage isn't that useful of info to know; it is not a good indicator of a PLD's damage output ability.

Here, highest VB did last night against Audumbla for me was 1272 using that set I listed earlier (w/Sentry Belt for waist). But, how did I really do?

    Vorpal Blade 
      178:    1 
      368:    1 
      424:    1 
      499:    1 
      515:    1 
      557:    1 
      650:    1 
      709:    1 
+     724:    2 
      726:    1 
      754:    1 
      761:    1 
      765:    1 
 ^    815:    1 
      818:    1 
      835:    1 
      917:    1 
      928:    1 
      947:    1 
      974:    1 
     1006:    1 
     1044:    1 
     1109:    1 
     1158:    1 
     1216:    1 
     1231:    1 
     1234:    1 
     1272:    1


It's pretty unwieldy to list and discuss each and every one of these kinds of numbers, especially if the sample size is large. So, if we are to talk about "Vorpal Blade damage", it's only logical to talk about the average, which would be 822.69 for that particular run, and the relevant conditions under which they were done (vs. Audumbla; RR, VV; no food; the gear set listed--sometimes DW, sometimes not; and, 85.71% of the time with Dia on the NM).

From this and other NMs, I'm fairly confident in saying that PLDs with comparable gear to myself would not see 2000+ average Vorpal Blade on NMs. In fact, very small portions of Vorpal Blade numbers would stray into the 2000+ territory at all.

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 3:44pm by IfritnoItazura


WTF kind of gear / atma are you using? Seriously I put out bigger numbers with Versa/M.Kris on my WAR/NIN @296 skill. And when I said 2K vorpals I was referring to the average, the "highest" type numbers are usually 3K. Are you turtleing up using taco's and HP / defense atma? Our guy usually loads our RR / Apoc / then GH SA or VV depending on his mood, eats meat and has some pretty bad a$$ WS gear. This is the difference I was talking about earlier, Crour buffs and the design of Abyssea makes defensive stats completely worthless (not that they had much worth to begin with). The WHM's now come with 2K MP, a free refill from /RDM and 10~20 MP/tick refresh, a near limitless supply of Cure V / VI. As long as the monster doesn't one shot you, you never need to worry about damage mitigation ~ever~, just spam the mob to hold its attention while spamming Flash, keep enlight up and use meat or pizza+1 depending. Its the exact same style I use when tanking on WAR/SAM, WAR/NIN, BLU/NIN, or SAM/WAR. PLD just comes with built-in JA's for staying alive and CE / VE building.
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Lucinus wrote:
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