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Hate control... Flash II, Can I Have It?Follow

#1 Oct 26 2010 at 9:47 PM Rating: Good
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Okay I know its been mentioned in the past, but seriously, how can a PLD in the new world of Hellacious DD keep hate, save a TA thf or /thf. Even then I am having it ripped off. If anything at this point we are first voke/flash and then back uphealers. There is very little we can do hate wise to keep up with the kind of Dmg they are doing, Even the awesome attonement is becoming piss poor dmg by comparison. My LS just rips hate off, eveyone /nin and bounce it. they die or get healed so much the WHM get attacked. I have a small degree of control at strat but once that CE from their dmg surpasses mine even our big VE JA do very little. Am I the only one experiencing this?

I would like to see another flash or variation of such. make a 60 sec cool down, increase the blind durration, bump the CE and VE up and give us something else to compete with. Haste only gets you so far on a recast, and 5 min durration of JA doesnt help much either. If we had an alternate hate spell it might bring us back to some form of hate control.

The implemation of the new "Decreases Emnity loss by dmg taken" items are a great concept and will probably add a new aspect to blood tanks /war or /dnc with the new -PDT gear, but when a NM is slaming you for 300-400 dmg /nin is just smarter. but now were back to no voke, so /nin we have... flash, attonement spam, cure gear swaps and shadow casts. very little by comparison when a blu is popin off 3k and a 1500 distortion with their new spells it gets very discouraging. at this point I DD and back up heal cause he is officially tanking the rest of the battle.

I have been a tank for a long time and worked around many changes in this game. from back in the old Vit turtle earthstaff days to the /nin to DD for hate. I jumped all over /dnc when it came out. but reliance of a subjob is getting a tad old. just give us the tools we need to do our job, amirite? overpower? what we hold hate, its no more so than merc kirs Drk Zerg. Who cares if we have more hate tools? give a voke ability, Though id rather see CE than VE. who cares. are the nin gonna bitch cause they gotta wear atk and str gear vrs eva gear now? no, are the DD gonna bitch cause they can go all out and no fear death? no, are the healers gonna bitch when they dont have to rumage through an alliance to see who needs the next cure bomb, and pray to not get hate? no. its a new world and while phalanx and en-light are a Fun addition, its time to step up to the bar SE and give us what we need.
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#2 Oct 27 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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<SE> You can have flash II... but it will share a recast timer with flash, take 300 MP, and basically do absolutely nothing that flash doesn't already do. Also, it will sleep with your wife, fill your comp up with spyware downloading internet porn, leave empty milk cartons in the fridge, eat those leftovers you were looking forward to for lunch, clip it's toenails on your couch and leave them there, and occasionally kill your dog.
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#3 Oct 27 2010 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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The problem has little to do with our hate tools and more to do with the way hate works.

Since there is a hard cap on the hateline (10000 each for CE and VE), it becomes very easy for a PLD to cap and maintain hate. The problem is that we lose so much hate for taking damage and we lose a portion of our VE every tick. The DD's, especially now with all the buffs they have received, can generate hate faster than us and we have a hard time keeping up (a 2500 damage WS generates far more than we can dream of getting from flash, for instance). And, while they've given us access to excellent DD gear, we're still held back by the relatively lower damage rating of our swords. Sure, we can use GS's or (lol)Polearms and get some 2-handed buffs, but those WS's aren't exactly stellar, either.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the best thing SE can do to help put PLDs back on the mainstay of tanking is to give us a job trait that allows us to increase the max CE and VE. Maybe have it start at an extra 1000 at, say, level 25 and increase by 1000 every 15-25 levels. If our cap was above what others could reach we'd be able to tank a lot better while still letting them go full out. Then we WOULD be accomplishing our job by keeping the mob on us AND the DDs would be able to go all out.
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#4 Oct 27 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dracoth wrote:
The problem has little to do with our hate tools and more to do with the way hate works.


QFT

Its not the fact that Flash doesnt give enough hate - the problem is that hate caps.

Any good PLD caps his hate in 5 minutes. When you have reasonable DDs, they will also cap their hate in a little bit. So you have 2 chars with hate, any time a hit lands the mob is switching.
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#5 Oct 27 2010 at 6:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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#6 Oct 27 2010 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
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Can't quite see where a personal cap increase will help much in your general fights where PLDs are typically considered lackluster since you won't have enough time to cap anyway. Some mobs having hate resets also throw a monkey wrench into things. I can see some merit in a forced attention JA that overrides current enmity tables, but the trick is giving it a timer that makes it useful, but not totally invalidating fights where enmity control is meant to be rough. Then again, I'm curious to see what a good PLD could do with Chant du Cygne and Razed Ruin.
#7 Oct 28 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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Ti fix tanking it is necessary to raise the hate cap, as mentioned. Also, Seriha, Chant du Cygne shouldn't be a requirement to be able to compete against DD's, since it is a luxury item not everyone will/want have access to. Atonement was annoying to get but worth it, even if it is uselsss in short fights.

A combination of fixing the VIT/DEF formula, giving PLD native traits like enmity bonus, and also, why enmity reduction while taking damage comin' from equipment? I'm pretty sure that could be a trait of sorts as well (the merited trait blows to be honest). The shield upgrade was a step in the super right direction, but the game has evolved to zerging and TP burning, making fights last minutes, and thus making PLD not desirable for tanking.

On long drawn out fights, PLD will be a solid tank, but on short fights, we get shunned by other jobs like Monks, Samurais, Blue Mages, etc. Either make it easier for PLD to get/cap/maintain hate, or make the other job's abilities and spells generate less CE and more VE. (The recent nerfs to some Black Magic made it easier for PLD in events like Limbus, Dynamis and Einherjar, why not do the same for stuff like Quadratic Continumm, and WS related Damage?)
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#8 Oct 28 2010 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Can't equate curiosity to demanding it a requirement. PLD's DD gear isn't terrible, better than RDM's in a number of respects, even, and the job's pulled off 2k+ with modest regularity with the mentioned atma. Of course, part of the problem is other DDs having their atmas while sword WS are generally meh. Still, upping the hate cap will mean diddly in short fights while it somewhat eliminates the need for tactics in longer ones when you can just herpderp hate stack on a PLD and then eventually let DDs go balls out because it's literally impossible for them to reach the same threshold.

Hate management will need to be found in other ways, like possibly SE splitting Accomplice/Collaborator timers on THF, using a SCH for enmity tweak spells, and so on.
#9 Oct 28 2010 at 11:58 PM Rating: Decent
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In that we can agree, dying to see some reliable numbers off that (seen some claiming 700-800 and others 2500-3500, but the latter was a BG member, and I distinctively remember them flocking to Masamune and getting dissappointed with such a claim)
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#10 Oct 29 2010 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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Zafire's the RDM I was alluding to. He's posted a 3.5k screenshot in the RDM forum in the Accomplishment thread, though general numbers are a bit higher than what one could expect since his target mobs were weak to slashing. I've duoed with him since we're both on Sylph and he had a 3.6k one on the same mob type while many were somewhere in the 2k range without misses. CDC is a very solid WS in Abyssea, but I also know RDM's readily accessible WS gear choices aren't exactly as meaty as PLD's, and top-of-the-line stuff is no contest.
#11 Oct 30 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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VE & CE cap at 10k each.

VE:

Assuming a level 90 target (since the generated hate for damage done is pretty much flat relative to mob level by that point), the rate of VE gain per damage is 240/61. I'm going to just treat it as 4:1 for approximations.

VE decays at a rate of 60 VE per second. 60 VE would be generated with 15 damage, so the decay rate is -15 DPS.

So, what overall DPS rate would cap VE in various intervals (after accounting for decay)? Looking at 10 second intervals:

265 DPS would cap VE in 10 seconds.
140 DPS would cap VE in 20 seconds.
100 DPS would cap VE in 30 seconds.
80 DPS would cap VE in 40 seconds.

How does that compare to potential damage rates? As my research primarily focuses on mnk, I'll use that to illustrate. (Note: this DPS assumes fairly aggressive playstyle.)

1. WoE empyrean (lower tier weapon), haste, 2x march, full usu, bison steak, RR+SS atma: 280 DPS.
2. Lvl 85 fire Taipans, haste, 2x march, standard-good 75 gear (black belt, turban, byakko's, usu feet, etc), pizza, Stout Arm atma: 165 DPS
3. Same but without marches: 110 DPS
4. Lvl 80 fire Taipans, brown belt, ACP body, aurore pants, pizza, no notable atma: 80 DPS


Aside: Entry 1 is not fully top-tier. It's certainly possible to go well over 300 DPS, and that's even before adding Haste Samba.

So you can see that at certain points, DPS ramps up pretty quick. Of note, however, is that even the relatively weak 4th example will still cap VE within about 40 seconds.

Most NM fights will last 5-10 minutes, and the DDs are going to be capping out VE well within the first minute, often in less than 30 seconds.


On the CE side, the rate is 80/61, which means it will take 7,625 damage to cap out. Using the above sample DPS values, that will take about:

1. 30 seconds
2. 45 seconds
3. 70 seconds
4. 95 seconds


So aside from damage they take, it should take no more than 2 minutes, and quite possibly about 1 minute, to completely cap hate for a DD.



What is the pld managing in the meantime?

Assume he spikes hate at the start.

Engage. Sentinel, Divine Emblem, Flash, Rampart. 1800 + 3840 + 3600 = 9,240 VE. Assuming sufficient haste, a second Flash within the 30 second window of Sentinel for 11,800 VE, and subtract 1800 decay VE, you have 10,000 VE, capped.

Congratulations, you've manged to stay ahead of the tier 3 DD for ~30 seconds. Within 45 seconds VE becomes irrelevant, as everyone should have capped it by then. Provoke from /war is also inconsequential after that point, though it gives you a faster buildup at the start.

What about the CE side?

Two Flashes while under Sentinel gives you 900 CE. After that you're dependant on cures and damage done.

Cures: Kanican hasn't updated the data for post-75, but assuming it continues the same trend, the multiplier for level 85 should be 40/61, or 0.66 * Cure amount for CE. Assuming 400 point cures, that's 262 CE per Cure IV (before +enmity), or 2.98 CE/MP, compared to 7.2 CE/MP for Flash.

It takes 2.5 seconds to cast Cure IV, so you're getting about 105 CE per second. That's the equivalent of doing 80 DPS. So, MP efficiency aside, using Cure IV in a cure kit that interrupts melee is comparable to the damage output of the tier 4 DD.

Your other source of CE is direct damage. Since your cures are gaining CE at a rate of 80 DPS, your normal damage has to be doing at least that much as well just to maintain parity with the lowest tier DDs (well, lowest tier not-completely-gimp-idiot DDs).

The DDs are getting Haste and 2x March, so you should be getting the same (at least vs tier 1 and 2). If your group decides you're not worthy of a brd, there's pretty much no way to catch up.

Full Perle + Swift Belt should be considered base minimum, for 18% gear haste. Add 37% for total magical haste and that puts you at 55%.

I'll take out time for one Flash every 25 seconds, and one Cure IV every 15 seconds. I won't take out time for Utsusemi casting since I didn't remove that from the DD's DPS either. With the casting, you're using about 22.5% of your total action time, which means your damage is going to be reduced to 77.5% of its potential. Alternatively, if your DD potential is high enough, cut cure cast frequency in half and have 85% of your total time available for meleeing. I'll split the difference and just use 80%.

So, 80% of your damage potential has to beat 80 DPS, which means innate damage potential has to be at 100 DPS or higher. With 55% haste, your unhasted damage needs to then be 45 DPS or higher. It would be nice to reach 150 total DPS, which means unhasted DPS of 85.

In general, can expect weaponskills to represent perhaps 30%-35% of total damage, so melee damage should be in the range of 30-60 DPS.

What's needed to reach that threshold?

Joyeuse: 1.45 swings per round, d35 weapon. Max fStr: 11. If capped attack, max melee DPS: 37.5. Decently above the minimum, almost enough to reach tier 3.

Shamshir +1: d52 weapon. Max fStr: 13. If capped attack, max melee DPS: 35.5. Bit below Joyeuse; should have weaponskills that are about 20% stronger, but less frequent.


Of course that depends on capped fStr, which you'll probably have (depending on DD atma chosen), and capped attack, which you probably won't have (aside from maybe War, most full time DDs can't regularly reach the attack cap). Far more likely to drop to 3/4 of that at best, which is below the threshold for 80 DPS. That can be compensated for with dual-wielding rather than using a shield (somewhat dubius tradeoff if you still need a pld for tanking) plus minor +DA gear (ie: Brutal Earring).

Caveat: All that is rather sketchy, as I haven't run real numbers on things. It's also comparing against DDs going all-out, where they are more likely to be holding back, for !! triggers if nothing else. Essentially, with proper cooperation and focus it should be possible to barely stay ahead of the DDs for short periods of fights. A thf for collab makes this a lot easier (see anecdotes below).

Edit: Actually, I forgot that the 80 DPS DD isn't getting marches. That means that the pld *with* marches and atma is struggling to keep up with the low-end DD *without* marches -or- atma. The entire concept becomes more and more of a stretch.




Given that a pld can reach 2500 HP fairly easily in Abyssea, one should also consider CE loss rates. You're losing 0.72 CE per point of damage taken. Being hit for 364 damage removes 262 CE, the amount gained from a 400 point Cure IV. As long as you can fully cure your own damage, you can maintain a neutral hate level on CE, accumulating on damage done. However it's rare to manage that, as usually serious damage comes in large spikes that you'll want a whm with Cure V/VI to patch up (ie: 1000+ damage at a go); minor damage is blinked away.


What would fix things for pld? Well, one thing that would significantly alleviate it would be to change the tier 2 Guardian merit so that it was a 100% active trait, instead of only during Sentinel. Having it only active during Sentinel makes it a complete joke, unless you happen to have Sentinel up when you get hit by a huge nuke.

5 levels of Guardian, for a 95% reduction in CE loss, would mean that 1000 damage taken would only lose you 36 CE, a completely inconsequential amount (a shadow getting hit is -25 CE). At that point there's absolutely no reason to use /nin to conserve CE (may still want to use /nin for dealing with certain types of high-damage attacks, of course). Even if they downgraded it to, say, 15% per merit level, 75% total, that's still only 180 CE loss for taking 1000 damage, which can be made up for in a single Flash.

At that point you can switch to /war for the massive damage upgrade of Berserk and Double Attack, as well as being able to better take advantage of the Creed armor set.


Alternatively, could change Guardian to be exactly that requested trait: Raise max hate cap while Sentinel is in effect (say, +1800, which would allow VE to stay above 10k for exactly the duration of Sentinel, assuming Sentinal was used at the 10k mark). Make the 'reduced hate loss from taking physical damage' a native job trait (eg: 15% every 20 levels, plus 5% from Collar, 5%/10% from Creed feet +1/+2, 10%-20% from Burtgang).



* Anecdotes:

One particular scenario that I've been in with two different groups is a setup of mnk (me) + pld + thf. One pld does a pretty good job with hate (though not ideal; I'd play it a bit differently, but I'm not asked to come pld since my mnk or thf is more useful), the other is... a bit slower.

In one particular fight, I had a really hard time with taking too much damage as mnk. To fix this, I had the thf collab me as frequently as possible, and TA the pld. It worked in helping to balance the hate between us, and things went reasonably well.

In a different fight with the less impressive pld we did the same thing. It didn't work. Part of the problem was not enough TA on the pld (this thf was also somewhat lacking), but I'm not sure that that in and of itself would have been sufficient. In the previous fight, the thf Collab'ing me turned the mob back towards the pld. In this fight, the thf Collab'ing me sent the mob chasing after the blm. Oops.

In each case, as mnk I was holding back severely, often getting to 250 TP and usually just using Shoulder Tackle as a weaponskill. I'd take occasional damage, but without Collab the mob never so much as blinked at the pld.

Not even going to bring up the third pld....


Different scenario, this time thf (me) + pld. No third DD aside from blm. In this case I always TA+WS the pld, and just do normal melee + SA otherwise (infrequent solo WS). In this setup, I -still- end up tanking a few minutes into the fight, often easily holding hate with just dagger swings (even using a gimpy Thief Knife offhand). In a couple fights I'd TA+WS the pld and then try to run around for SA and the mob would just continue to face me, this lasting for a full couple minutes (1-2 more TAs on the pld, no SA).



Essentially, the pld was a mostly useless accessory in the party. Gave tons of extra TP to the mob, making !! triggers more difficult, while not providing any particularly strong offensive benefits, and not being useful defensively (well, not entirely true; frequent use of Cover was also handy, once I got them to use it) without constant thf support. At best they're an extra cure, and maybe occasional Flash to help me evade an attack or two, plus a bit of a breather with Cover. But not a tank.


As seen in the DDs' DPS rates, there is just flat out no way that a pld can keep up with CE generated based on any of the tools pld has available. The only hope is to not lose CE as fast when taking damage in order to mostly stay ahead of the DDs (if the DDs take hate and get hit, they'll drop below the pld very quickly). Still need a good way to build CE quickly, though. Opening with a 900-1000 damage Vorpal (should be doable with good atma) while Sentinel is up would give ~2500 CE at the start, enough to be a workable lead.
#12 Oct 31 2010 at 12:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Wow Kinematics, as always incredible post!

What would you say if SE raised the max hate cap for PLD via merits? To something like 100 per merit on both categories? So in the end you cap at 10.5k for each, and therefore after a while you can tank forever provided you keep generating VE and maintaining CE in the 9501 range?

Think that would work for the longer fights where the presence of a PLD is needed, since on shorter fights PLD just can't generate CE fast enough without a THF or two.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, it might break the game since there will be a point that no one else will be at risk unless the PLD takes a big hit in CE (which is not gonna happen if you got /nin, although an AoE might do it from time to time). Maybe a "stance" similar to Yonin/Innin, "Reduces enmity generation but raises the maximum amount of enmity".

Edited, Oct 31st 2010 1:03pm by Cigarman
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#13 Nov 02 2010 at 1:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think raising the CE cap as a general function is a good idea. If properly manipulated, it means that the mob will almost never look at anyone -except- the pld, which defeats the cooperation/coordination/risk that is intended in the fights.

As a *temporary* ability, it could be workable. EG: my idea of applying it while Sentinel was up, so at most 30 seconds every 4 minutes. During that time you can be mostly assured of staying ahead of the other combatants in total hate, while having 'normal' hate the rest of the time.

The CE loss problem, however, is pervasive. It can't be patched as a periodic temporary boost. The 'normal' hate system simply can't be overcome by a pld without relic-level gear.

Pld needs a way of keeping and maintaining CE at a reasonable level. Giving it some more thought, the full reduction I proposed above is actually a bit overboard. -36 CE for 1000 points of damage is barely more than that lost from an Utsu shadow. A nin or /nin tank, however, have to constantly fight to keep those shadows up to hold that hate; if they do get hit, 1000 damage is back to being -720 CE.

If the pld had the CE loss reduction at such a high level, once they got high enough on CE it would be virtually impossible to pull hate from them, which is just as much a gamebreaker as the raised CE cap. They need the CE loss reduction to be high enough to have a much easier time holding hate, but not a guarantee of holding hate.

So, I'd probably scale the reduction down to: 10% every 20 levels, 5%/10% from the Creed shoes, 5% from the neckpiece, and perhaps 10%-20% for Burtgang (a Mythic weapon holder should have a pretty notable advantage). That would give a max 55% reduction for non-Mythic holders, 75% with. 1000 damage would be -324 CE instead of -720, and -324 is within range of reocovery with a Cure IV, which would cure just 40% of the actual damage done.

After that, I think, SE would want to push more for pld/war type setup instead of /nin, which gives better options for CE generation.
#14 Nov 02 2010 at 7:48 PM Rating: Decent
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IMO, DDs able to gain enmity faster than PLD isn't a problem per se, as long as the difference isn't too substantial. (It would be problematic if they have no choice but to gain enmity faster--but right now, it's a choice.)

While the enmity gain situation probably should be tweaked a bit, as I see it, the real problem is actually the combination of:
1. The amount of MP available to healers (esp. in Abyssea),
2. The amount of damage NMs do (or don't do) to DDs, and
3. The lack of drastically better survivability of PLD compared to DDs.

Makes it so there's little incentive for DDs to hold back since just a few healers can keep them alive.

* * *

So, I think I'd prefer the route of NMs become more damaging, and at the same time PLD get (drastically) better damage mitigation.

By more damaging, I mean NMs should have a fair chance at taking out a MNK using HP+ (superior) Atma even with a decent WHM on cure. Doesn't have to be straight melee damage or even any 1-shot-kill TP move; can do so indirectly from status effects to create more danger to the front line and/or the back line, or vastly increase the cure needed with AoE attacks, etc., as long as it substantially increases the threat to the party/alliance, making it necessary to increase the ratio of healers to DDs when using DDs to tank.

That, of course, implies that PLDs have to be able to reduce the amount of curing (and number of healers) needed when they replace one or two of DDs on the front line. Some sort AoE magic damage cut and physical damage cut JAs may be good for that. (Well, only matters if NMs become much more dangerous, of course.)

This way, groups which can field more healers to keep people upright can still use DDs 'tanks' for faster but more dangerous fights, while groups which cannot can go with PLD tank(s) for slower but safer fights.

As much as I am an enthusiastic booster of PLD (being a PLD main myself lately), I don't want there to be one and only way to fight most NMs. There should be multiple viable tactics, each with different mix of costs and benefits.

* * *

Also, would be nice to get job trait or ability to (partially) negate enmity reset. That'd make my day.
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#15 Nov 15 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Would it make a difference if the pld/nin used fast attacking multi hitting swords with Raise Ruins atma and enlight up full time??? Basically should hit about a 50% crit rate at least loss of a shield but could the damage make up for that lost? Since ppl are using mnks who can't use a shield but do have guard and counter vs pld parry. Thoughts? just thinking outside the standard box and what about sanguine blade spam with its damage and heal as a hate tool....

Edited, Nov 15th 2010 1:26pm by kenshynOnShiva
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#16 Nov 16 2010 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I use a combination of Razed Ruins and Sanguine Scythe as far as Atma goes.
DEX (By an extension... Accuracy), x2 boosts to critical hit damage and a solid boost to critical hit rate.
HP and Enmity from SS as well.
I rarely have MP issues as i usually have a Red Mage with Refresh II around, failing that i bring all three Lucid Ethers and some Elixer's.
I'm looking at 240+ damage on a critical hit from melee, add about 30-40 from Enlight too.
Hate's never really an issue unless some DD rips hate off me at the start of an NM battle with an epic WS beefed by Razed Ruins, in which case... they're asking for it.


In most NM fights we do in Abyssea we have DD's stay back until we get a magic stagger, so by the time we've got it i've got pretty solid hate.

Edited, Nov 16th 2010 2:15pm by Tatham
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#17 Nov 16 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Cool cool good to know thanks!!!
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#18 Nov 18 2010 at 5:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Unless SE tweaked Enlight specifically, additional effects do not count toward enmity. So, while a multi-hitter will let you get the most out of Enlight as quickly as possible, it's not exactly going to help your hate. Nonetheless, you are on the right track considering a multi-hitter for getting the most out of a magic WS. It won't be the most damaging option available with Vorpal potentially scoring higher as well as CDC, but in Sanguine's case, the cure does help in a utility sense.

Personally, I don't buy the current hype that PLD is useless in Abyssea. It just requires them to possibly play differently. Flash still works for the benefit of others, as do your cures and Cover.
#19 Nov 18 2010 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
Unless SE tweaked Enlight specifically, additional effects do not count toward enmity. So, while a multi-hitter will let you get the most out of Enlight as quickly as possible, it's not exactly going to help your hate.


While it's true that the added affect doesn't help hate, the +accuracy bonus it provides certainly helps. The two most important stats for a PLD are Haste and Accuracy, followed then by Enmity, so using enlight will boost your hate by increasing your odds of getting it from melee and building up for faster WS's.

Seriha wrote:
Personally, I don't buy the current hype that PLD is useless in Abyssea. It just requires them to possibly play differently. Flash still works for the benefit of others, as do your cures and Cover.


I agree on this. I still prefer using my BLU, though. It even tanks better.
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#20 Dec 01 2010 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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779 posts
What you wanted, Flash II.

What you got.

Sepulcher (PLD Lv.87 Ability Delay: 10 min. Effect Duration: 3 min.)
Lowers accuracy, evasion, magic accuracy, magic evasion, and TP gain for undead.

And also, protect V.

I feel like Charlie Brown during Halloween, with a rock inside my trick or treat bag.
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Dreakon of Bismark
Drk90 Pld90 Cor90
Pirate Tea Party
#21 Dec 01 2010 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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2,236 posts
SE wrote:
In addition to the above, performance-enhancing tweaks will be introduced for a host of existing job abilities. The exciting details will be announced in the very near future, so stay tuned!


Can't say for certain what else might be getting changed yet, so there's still hope.
#22 Dec 01 2010 at 8:02 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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781 posts
Dreakon wrote:
What you wanted, Flash II.

What you got.

Sepulcher (PLD Lv.87 Ability Delay: 10 min. Effect Duration: 3 min.)
Lowers accuracy, evasion, magic accuracy, magic evasion, and TP gain for undead.

And also, protect V.

I feel like Charlie Brown during Halloween, with a rock inside my trick or treat bag.


Good Grief, Ughhhhh, ProV, Ill take it I suppose /sigh. somethings better than nothing. and Sepulcher, Holy Circle II. yay?
____________________________
Nihcru @ Bahamut
PLD 75
/Salute...
The sword held high with virtue and might,
A Shield in hand protecting what's right,
Through Darkest night may valor shine bright,
May Goddess Altana bless you with her light.
#23 Dec 07 2010 at 12:19 AM Rating: Decent
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1,481 posts
I would LOVE a nice range AoE Flashga to mke cure cheats on multiple enemies instead of curing the sleepers
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Midgardsormr
Champion

Muzaa wrote:
The Paladin Code: First man in, last man out.
#24 Dec 07 2010 at 8:30 AM Rating: Decent
PLD could use a JA or spell that's guaranteed to pull the mob's attention for 5-10 seconds maximum(any longer might be too overpowered for zerging). Make it ignore all hate/enmity rules and slap a 5 minute recast on it. Another welcome ability, call it 'Savior' would target a pt member and would decrease their current enmity, or maybe even absorb it, like a reverse trick attack or spirit surge-super jump

Edited, Dec 7th 2010 6:30am by TheHolyDragoonSeraphus
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DRG75/RDM75/PLD75


One to be born
from a dragon
hoisting the light
and the dark
arises high
up in the sky
to the still land.
Veiling the moon with the light of eternity
it brings another promise to mother Earth
with a bounty and mercy.
#25 Dec 09 2010 at 4:00 PM Rating: Default
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341 posts
TheHolyDragoonSeraphus wrote:
Another welcome ability, call it 'Savior' would target a pt member and would decrease their current enmity, or maybe even absorb it, like a reverse trick attack or spirit surge-super jump


So, you want Accomplice/Collaborator? Or an Enmity Douse which can be used on party members? Or would you rather have Animus Minuo?

No offense, but I don't really want to see PLD becoming more like other jobs. (Kind of like what SCH is doing yet again compared to RDM, making each less distinctive.)

* * *

Personally, I rather the Atmas be toned down a bit and the monsters made more dangerous, but people are stupidly afraid of 'nerfs' of any sort, especially when it comes to their precious damage output.

If there's no real threat, there's no need for a tank. If there's no need for a tank, there's no need for a Paladin. Hence, more dangerous monsters (and thus harder fights) are a good thing for Paladins.

If we need a Paladin to tank, though, the semi-AFK DDs shouldn't be able to out generate enmity from auto-attack while a PLD is using everything in his arsenal short of SP. It's also not right that MNKs with HP Atma have better survivability than PLDs without adversely impacting the healers. Hence, nerfs needed. (*Ducks the bricks being thrown*)

Just saying...

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 2:01pm by IfritnoItazura
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Itazura of Ifrit
#26 Dec 09 2010 at 4:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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712 posts
IfritnoItazura wrote:
It's also not right that MNKs with HP Atma have better survivability than PLDs without adversely impacting the healers. Hence, nerfs needed. (*Ducks the bricks being thrown*)

Just saying...

How do you figure? Monks always been a better defensive job than PLD when played right. They have naturally more HP(you dont need any HP atmas in abyssea atm) than PLD, more PDT gear than pld, counter > shield proc, enough fire resistance gear to tank most mobs outside of Tiamat(not including augmented items). I think the only part they suffered is in the magic damage department, their gear is more limited.
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SERVER: IFRIT
WHM/BRD: Triangulum
PLD
MNK
SAM
BLM
DRK

#27 Jan 20 2011 at 6:41 AM Rating: Decent
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2,890 posts
The way our shell handles this situation is that the DD's just don't fight the NM (obviously tier II or higher) until after we've proced all the !! we want. We make them TP on nearby mobs and only go in to WS to proc red / blue !! but otherwise stay away to prevent the hate issue. After we've proced everything we want, the LS leader gives the word and the DD's go hog wild and kill the damn thing in under 15s. We also encourage our DD to use weak a$$ weapons when trying to proc !!'s so as not to create much enmity or kill the NM too fast (this becomes a serious problem once several of your members have emp weapons or just lots of +2 gear). They really shouldn't be trying to do damage when their using WS's like RLB / Blade Ei / Retribution / Black Halo.
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the @#%^ out of the way instead...
Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
#28 Jan 20 2011 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
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341 posts
saevellakshmi wrote:
The way our shell handles this situation is that the DD's just don't fight the NM (obviously tier II or higher) until after we've proced all the !! we want. We make them TP on nearby mobs and only go in to WS to proc red / blue !! but otherwise stay away to prevent the hate issue.

You may be missing the point; the real complaint is that PLD isn't better than other jobs at keeping the monster glued as of now--there's no significant advantage of using a PLD to hold the monster while other DDs to TP up instead of, say, using a MNK to hold the monster while other DDs get TP off of NQ mobs.


A bit old, but:
hitoseijuro wrote:
IfritnoItazura wrote:
It's also not right that MNKs with HP Atma have better survivability than PLDs without adversely impacting the healers. Hence, nerfs needed. (*Ducks the bricks being thrown*)

Just saying...

How do you figure? Monks always been a better defensive job than PLD when played right. They have naturally more HP(you dont need any HP atmas in abyssea atm) than PLD, more PDT gear than pld, counter > shield proc, enough fire resistance gear to tank most mobs outside of Tiamat(not including augmented items). I think the only part they suffered is in the magic damage department, their gear is more limited.

Well, the key part of my phrasing was "without adversely impacting the healers."

Counter is better than shield block when it happens (unless you look at TP gain), but happens less often than shield block without Counterstance (I think?). Per hit, MNK takes more damage than PLD on average(*), and even more so with Counterstance, which back then in Lv.75 era was a real concern since MP was much harder to come by and WHMs couldn't rotate between Cure VI and V.

(*) I don't know exactly why, but MNKs taking more damage per hit than PLDs on average is what I see in parses.

Anyway, I'm not wishing SE would kill DD tanking in general (or MNK tanking in particular), but just make it so there's more of a trade off when compared to a PLD tank. That's where the condition of "without adversely impacting the healers" plays a part--it should be the case that if using DD tanks, the players should need more healers/support in the alliance mix.

Right now, that isn't happening, which is one reason why the playerbase is taking such of dim view of PLD tanking.

Also, "DD x3, support, and healer" is always better than "Tank, DD x2, support, and healer" unless the target monster has a very good chance of taking down the first team but not the second. Without that threat and the difference in danger, it's a bit pointless to discuss how to make PLD the better job for that tank position instead of MNK. /sigh




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Itazura of Ifrit
#29 Jan 20 2011 at 12:15 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
IfritnoItazura wrote:
TheHolyDragoonSeraphus wrote:
Another welcome ability, call it 'Savior' would target a pt member and would decrease their current enmity, or maybe even absorb it, like a reverse trick attack or spirit surge-super jump


So, you want Accomplice/Collaborator? Or an Enmity Douse which can be used on party members? Or would you rather have Animus Minuo?

No offense, but I don't really want to see PLD becoming more like other jobs. (Kind of like what SCH is doing yet again compared to RDM, making each less distinctive.)

* * *

Personally, I rather the Atmas be toned down a bit and the monsters made more dangerous, but people are stupidly afraid of 'nerfs' of any sort, especially when it comes to their precious damage output.

If there's no real threat, there's no need for a tank. If there's no need for a tank, there's no need for a Paladin. Hence, more dangerous monsters (and thus harder fights) are a good thing for Paladins.

If we need a Paladin to tank, though, the semi-AFK DDs shouldn't be able to out generate enmity from auto-attack while a PLD is using everything in his arsenal short of SP. It's also not right that MNKs with HP Atma have better survivability than PLDs without adversely impacting the healers. Hence, nerfs needed. (*Ducks the bricks being thrown*)

Just saying...

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 2:01pm by IfritnoItazura


How about an ability like Subdue from FFTA's Paladin, in that game it was used to do small amounts of damage in order to get an enemy close to dead but not dead (thus allowing capture), in this case why not make it a mob targeted enmity douse type ability, that reduces threat for all others in its threat pool except for the user.

That wouldn't magically make Paladins the go-to tank, but it wouldn't hurt, and it would be a nice unique job ability. At the very least it'd make it so when a Paladin tanks the DDs could go balls-to-the-wall and then you could press the reset button on everyone's threat and continue on with your job. Unfortunately as has been stated repeatedly, most of the difficulty of the fights these days is staggering the enemy, not killing them. We can hold out hope for the next 9 levels.
#30 Jan 22 2011 at 12:40 AM Rating: Decent
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2,890 posts
Ifrit, so what your really saying is not bring a PLD to a fight and instead bring a MNK? Just so we're clear on your position.
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the @#%^ out of the way instead...
#31 Jan 23 2011 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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341 posts
saevellakshmi wrote:
Ifrit, so what your really saying is not bring a PLD to a fight and instead bring a MNK? Just so we're clear on your position.

Hmmm. My position?
1. At Lv.90, MNK/NIN has mostly surpassed PLD/NIN for tanking when fighting toe-to-toe--provided the player has the gear and skill for tanking on MNK/NIN. This is especially so in Abyssea. (At Lv.75, the case for PLD tank was more compelling, but Perfect Counter is ridiculous, and so is MNK's HP now.)
2. I dislike that situation; there should be more incentive to have a PLD to tank.
3. "More damage output" feels wrong for PLD's image, and it's not the right way to fix the situation--after all, why would anyone want DD jobs in alliance if PLDs can do just as much damage?
4. "More defense JA/JT/spells" would be nice, but not the right approach, since the problem right now really isn't that PLD lacks defense capabilities.
5. IMO, aside from MNK, the real problem is that monsters aren't all that threatening, and we don't need extra healer when a PLD is replaced by a "DD tank". When that's the case, players will gravitate toward "DD tank" for efficiency gain.

#2 and #5 are on my mind the most; there should be more incentive to have a PLD to tank. We don't need to be the one-and-only job capable of tanking on every monster, but the trade off between "DD tank" and "PLD tank" should be adjusted (a lot)--because right now there's almost nothing detrimental about using "DD tank" instead of "PLD tank" for toe-to-toe fights.


p.s. IfritnoItazura means "Itazura of Ifrit". Can use "Itaz" instead.


Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 1:09pm by IfritnoItazura
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Itazura of Ifrit
#32 Jan 23 2011 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
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2,890 posts
You realize that you've just reduced FFXI's job selected down to a handful with those statements. Under that logic very few jobs should be used, especially inside Abyssea because some else can always do better. This was something that screwed over many players prior to the level cap increase, SE designed abyssea explicitly to allow multiple job combination's and to have everyone be capable of contributing something significant. Your logic can be applied to all jobs, why bring a DRG, SAM or DRK when a WAR and MNK can (with the right gear / skill) do so much better? When you get down to it, there are only a few "best jobs" in this game, its just how things are designed.
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the @#%^ out of the way instead...
#33 Jan 23 2011 at 10:00 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
saevellakshmi wrote:
You realize that you've just reduced FFXI's job selected down to a handful with those statements. Under that logic very few jobs should be used, especially inside Abyssea because some else can always do better. This was something that screwed over many players prior to the level cap increase, SE designed abyssea explicitly to allow multiple job combination's and to have everyone be capable of contributing something significant. Your logic can be applied to all jobs, why bring a DRG, SAM or DRK when a WAR and MNK can (with the right gear / skill) do so much better? When you get down to it, there are only a few "best jobs" in this game, its just how things are designed.


You're taking the cold logic he is applying in stating what things are keeping Paladin from being sought after and filling it up with warm emotions.

I don't think Itazura is saying that Paladin should never be used, or that he dislikes Paladin, I don't get any sense that he is trying to be elitist (not that I even have an issue with this). It's actually a bit confusing what I'm trying to say.

Basically, I believe Itazura is pointing out the faults with Paladin and what needs to change so it is more sought after. He is not stating that players shouldn't use it, merely that they won't use it when given the choice.

If I can build a party of WHM,MNK/NIN,BLM,BLU,WAR and cover 90% of the procs I will need, why would I ever add another person in there, a Paladin? The thing is, the whole "Abyssea making it so other jobs can be used" is what kills Paladin, the content is easier, that's why you have to be less specific about what jobs you bring (for killing not proc'ing) because of this, Paladin isn't needed to tank, therefore bringing a Paladin (even if they are marginally more efficient at mitigating damage, which they're really not most of the time atm) that's one more person to compete with drops for very little gain.

If there were any pure tank class other than Paladin they'd be in the same boat right now, there's just no need for a tank. Paladin needs some unique benefit for parties to consider using one. If they just make everything hard again and only PLD and NIN can tank, I don't think that's a solution either. There needs to be some discrepancies though between someone who is focusing on tanking and someone who is DD/tanking, and some benefit to each approach.
#34 Jan 24 2011 at 4:46 AM Rating: Good
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2,890 posts
The exact same logic that he used and you demonstrated can be used to lock just about ~any~ job out of ~any~ event. Nothing SE adds can possibly change that. PLD's problem isn't hate generation, that can be done easily enough, its that PLD specializes in reducing damage intake while the most efficient method of taking less damage is through faster kills. Essentially the best defense is with a better offense.

Also

Quote:
Also, "DD x3, support, and healer" is always better than "Tank, DD x2, support, and healer"


Was where the failure to understand kicked in. In FFXI "tank" is whomever generates hate and holds the monster in one spot. I've "tanked" as WAR, BLU and SAM before, this is nothing new. PLD is just a "DD" with set of defensive job abilities / traits along with cure IV and should be treated as such.
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the @#%^ out of the way instead...
#35 Jan 26 2011 at 5:39 PM Rating: Decent
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341 posts
RamseySylph wrote:
Itazura is pointing out the faults with Paladin and what needs to change so it is more sought after. He is not stating that players shouldn't use it, merely that they won't use it when given the choice.

That's pretty close; people often still pick PLD out of comfort level with playing the job and the habit of having the job in alliance. What I said was SE has changed the system to favor not using PLD (even though the game doesn't prevent using PLD).


saevellakshmi wrote:
PLD's problem isn't hate generation, that can be done easily enough, its that PLD specializes in reducing damage intake while the most efficient method of taking less damage is through faster kills. Essentially the best defense is with a better offense.

I disagree (well, to some degree).

1. DDs can now generate enmity faster (and easier) than PLD, especially in Abyssea with DD atmas.
2. Faster kill is only possible if the players can stay alive by: A) Avoid the nastiest attacks, and/or B) able to survive the nasty attacks while you're putting out damage.

More damage will be taken with Berserk up; Hasso instead of Seigan means will more likely eating melee hits--do you really want your SAM/WAR to have Berserk and Hasso up when he's the monster's target?

While it's possible to take less total damage over the fight, often it's more important not to take a lot of damage in a short period of time--i.e balance between damage mitigation and damage output. What the players fight, the player's skills/equipment, and atma available to the particular players in question all should be factored in deciding where the balance lies.

Abyssea also throws a curve ball; since players often want to proc different weakness, it's actually bad to kill fast on many critters (as my LS found out after we started getting better DD atmas. lol).


saevellakshmi wrote:

Also

Quote:
Also, "DD x3, support, and healer" is always better than "Tank, DD x2, support, and healer"


Was where the failure to understand kicked in. In FFXI "tank" is whomever generates hate and holds the monster in one spot. I've "tanked" as WAR, BLU and SAM before, this is nothing new.

I look at tanking a bit differently; 'tank' is the person the alliance/party want the monsters to focus attention on, and so the members in the alliance/party (including the tanks) play in such a way which helps the tank keep the monsters' attention.

When melee DDs can keep monsters away from back line jobs from auto-attack alone and the alliance/party no longer cares which person is being attacked by the monster as long as it's one of many DDs, there's no tanking. It's somewhat circular, but 'tanking' exists only when the alliance behave as one (or more) of the people up front is a tank--and usually this tank person would worry a lot about damage mitigation along with enmity generation.

Maybe a shorter way of saying it is that 'tanking' isn't just what the tank does, but how the alliance together behaves.


saevellakshmi wrote:
PLD is just a "DD" with set of defensive job abilities / traits along with cure IV and should be treated as such.

I don't disagree with the details, but I'm against the overall tone of that statement. lol.

Here, say there's an NM with very nasty, un-dispel-able spikes all the time. Can anyone 'tank' that on WAR or SAM? Not really. PLD, RDM, and BLU? Maybe, if one has the skill and gear (and spells, in BLU's case). There's not much damage dealing going on from the PLD in that situation, and it's the same with when kiting.

Damage dealing isn't the core concept of Paladin.

I'm not saying ignore the DD potential of PLD, but Cure is something a PLD can use in every fight, while hitting the monster isn't desirable every time--nevermind spikes, there are many instances where the TP feeding interferes with proc'ing. (The THF in my LS tells me to get off the monsters all the time. lol. T_T )

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Itazura of Ifrit
#36 Jan 26 2011 at 6:33 PM Rating: Good
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2,890 posts
Quote:
Damage dealing isn't the core concept of Paladin.


This idea is 100% play created and has no bearing on the design of the job itself. PLD doesn't have a single ability that sacrifices offense for defense, contrary it comes with a 4 hit critical WS and can wear all the heavy DD orientated gear. Use the same atma that the DD's are using and you'll put out the same damage (or close to it) that they do. MP is a joke inside abyssea, I've face tanked many things as a WAR or BLU while dualboxing my 90WHM/RDM who spams cure V / VI on me. Between Azure + Rescuer + MM and convert my healer ~never~ ran close to empty, and this is without counting temp items as backups. You only need enough HP to survive the monsters higher attack / combo, otherwise your just like anyone else.

All a *tank* does is hold a monster in a specific location facing a certain way so that its moves and nasty status effects effect the least number of people possible. Its status effects that will kill you in Abyssea not damage, aoe mute / curse / doom type crap. All our LS PLD does is hold the mob while we try to proc stuff, he holds it by liberal use of "flash" and smacking the monster and doing 2K+ vorpals. DD's run in and proc different things with the specific instructions not to deal large amounts of damage *yet*. After that is done leader gives order and every turns the thing into a pile of dust, we like to use the terrorize effect of red !! as the time to do this.

Abyssea forces people to look at situations differently then they did before, its not the same FFXI so you must update your thinking to reflect this.
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the @#%^ out of the way instead...
#37 Jan 27 2011 at 8:47 AM Rating: Decent
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341 posts
saevellakshmi wrote:
Quote:
Damage dealing isn't the core concept of Paladin.


This idea is 100% play created and has no bearing on the design of the job itself.

I've already mentioned two situations where PLD isn't doing damage at all, so we'll just have to agree to disagree here.


saevellakshmi wrote:
Use the same atma that the DD's are using and you'll put out the same damage (or close to it) that they do.

Haven't worked out that way for me. I can keep up (and out damage many) bad DDs easily enough, but good DD players do quite a bit more damage on their DD jobs if comparing to my PLD.


saevellakshmi wrote:
All a *tank* does is hold a monster in a specific location facing a certain way so that its moves and nasty status effects effect the least number of people possible.

Nah, you yourself just mentioned the need to be able to survive attacks. High max HP is one way, damage mitigation (say, Utsusemi, so you don't take all hits from some big multi-hit move; MDB/MDT- gear for big spells, etc.) is another.

There are other aspects to tanking as well, and as I've mentioned, they go beyond what any one person does or does not do.


saevellakshmi wrote:
All our LS PLD does is hold the mob while we try to proc stuff, he holds it by liberal use of "flash" and smacking the monster and doing 2K+ vorpals.

This set:

Honorbound
Joyeuse
Incantor Stone

Askar Zucchetto
Soil Gorget
Suppanomimi
Brutal Earring

Haubergeon +1
Hecatomb Mittens
Spiral Ring
Strigoi Ring

Amemet Mantle +1
Potent Belt
Askar Dirs
Perle Solerets


Can only get Vorpal Blade to over 1100 to under 1600 average on NQ mobs for me--and that's with Razed Ruins and Voracious Violet, plus full critical hit rate and sword skill merits. Damage averages on NMs aren't anywhere near those numbers (though that's partially because Joyeuse would be swapped out for shield).

While it's not the best possible gear set, those item aren't exactly junk either, I'd think. I can't even imagine the gear it'd take to get Vorpal Blade to 2k average on the NMs even with RR and VV equipped and eating Yellow Curry Bun.

Either your LS's PLDs have exceptional gear, or you're making up the "2k+ vorpals". (I don't mean that you intentionally lied, but I suspect you're eyeballing PLD's damage output rather than measuring it with a parser. And, just to make it clear, the vast majority of people's eyeballing is extremely inaccurate and utterly unreliable--you'd have to be an abnormal human being to be an exception.)


saevellakshmi wrote:
Abyssea forces people to look at situations differently then they did before, its not the same FFXI so you must update your thinking to reflect this.

/sigh Yeah, Abyssea really changed my PLD from being useful at most fights to quite optional at most. It's kinda demoralizing when it's better to use THF tank on most low-end NMs since a THF can build up Treasure Hunter while all my PLD can do to the monster is just damage.


Edited, Jan 27th 2011 6:52am by IfritnoItazura
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Itazura of Ifrit
#38 Jan 27 2011 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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I fought Mothra in Attohwa earlier this week and had no problem busting out 2000+ dmg vorpals (I doubt they were the average, but they weren't uncommon either). Of course, this is probably with a triple attack proc'ing somewhere in the weaponskill. Still though, if you're never breaking 2000 damage on regular mobs, you're doing something wrong or you're just very unlucky.

As someone already mentioned, my linkshell does the same and only brings a PLD to hold the NM. I get to sit there spamming abilities, spells, and WS's to find out the proc's for red, grellow, and blue. Once we get the !! that we needed, the DDs tear the NM apart.

Also, unless I know the NM is going to be a pain in the ass or I need the extra stats from my shield (element resist sets GO!), I rarely start a fight with shield equipped.
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#39 Jan 27 2011 at 5:32 PM Rating: Decent
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341 posts
xypin wrote:
I fought Mothra in Attohwa earlier this week and had no problem busting out 2000+ dmg vorpals (I doubt they were the average, but they weren't uncommon either). Of course, this is probably with a triple attack proc'ing somewhere in the weaponskill. Still though, if you're never breaking 2000 damage on regular mobs, you're doing something wrong or you're just very unlucky.

Vorpal Blade damage tends to be all over the place; I've seen mine as high as 2500 (and as low as 300) on an NQ monster, but 2k+ is definitely uncommon. Depending on the target, I've seen my average 1100+ for some targets on the low end, and 1500+ or some others on the high end. Anyway, I've listed my Vorpal Blade set (though the waist is now Sentry Belt); judge for yourself if I'm gearing the right way for WS or not.

As for NMs, my Vorpal Blades tend to be under 1k average. (The numbers for NMs aren't as reliable, since that's dealing with fewer samples.)

By the way, using peak numbers as evidence that PLD are somehow decent at DD'ing isn't a good approach; comparing the averaged WS numbers would be more useful, IMO, especially for something as finicky as Vorpal Blade.


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Itazura of Ifrit
#40 Jan 27 2011 at 11:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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5,684 posts
IfritnoItazura wrote:
saevellakshmi wrote:
All our LS PLD does is hold the mob while we try to proc stuff, he holds it by liberal use of "flash" and smacking the monster and doing 2K+ vorpals.
Either your LS's PLDs have exceptional gear, or you're making up the "2k+ vorpals".
IfritnoItazura wrote:
Vorpal Blade damage tends to be all over the place; I've seen mine as high as 2500 (and as low as 300) on an NQ monster, but 2k+ is definitely uncommon.
Consistency where?

Quote:
By the way, using peak numbers as evidence that PLD are somehow decent at DD'ing isn't a good approach; comparing the averaged WS numbers would be more useful, IMO, especially for something as finicky as Vorpal Blade.
Of course this is true, but then again, you'll never hear me call pld a good DD. I'm a proud supporter of PLDs changing jobs.
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#41 Jan 28 2011 at 6:33 AM Rating: Default
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Think he meant hitting 2k+ consistently (as in 2k+ was average Vorpal damage) while /nin was being made up, unless you have Perma stalwart's and quite a few crits, but I haven't used Vorpal after getting 3rd lunar so I'm not too sure if Apoc ups things but even before that I'll have to agree for most Pld 2k is most likely spike damage. The last parse I have of a pld on exp mobs had them averaging 1k flat on Vorpal with spikes upwards of 2k while /nin with Razed, not sure if they had any other atmas (their accuracy was pretty bad however tbh.... 72%). Not saying it isn't impossible but I highly suspect eyeballing is going on here.
#42 Jan 28 2011 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Peak damage from Vorpal Blade can be 2k+, sure, especially on NQ mobs. But peak damage isn't that useful of info to know; it is not a good indicator of a PLD's damage output ability.

Here, highest VB did last night against Audumbla for me was 1272 using that set I listed earlier (w/Sentry Belt for waist). But, how did I really do?

    Vorpal Blade 
      178:    1 
      368:    1 
      424:    1 
      499:    1 
      515:    1 
      557:    1 
      650:    1 
      709:    1 
+     724:    2 
      726:    1 
      754:    1 
      761:    1 
      765:    1 
 ^    815:    1 
      818:    1 
      835:    1 
      917:    1 
      928:    1 
      947:    1 
      974:    1 
     1006:    1 
     1044:    1 
     1109:    1 
     1158:    1 
     1216:    1 
     1231:    1 
     1234:    1 
     1272:    1


It's pretty unwieldy to list and discuss each and every one of these kinds of numbers, especially if the sample size is large. So, if we are to talk about "Vorpal Blade damage", it's only logical to talk about the average, which would be 822.69 for that particular run, and the relevant conditions under which they were done (vs. Audumbla; RR, VV; no food; the gear set listed--sometimes DW, sometimes not; and, 85.71% of the time with Dia on the NM).

From this and other NMs, I'm fairly confident in saying that PLDs with comparable gear to myself would not see 2000+ average Vorpal Blade on NMs. In fact, very small portions of Vorpal Blade numbers would stray into the 2000+ territory at all.

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 3:44pm by IfritnoItazura
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#43 Jan 28 2011 at 6:11 PM Rating: Good
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Are we arguing that 2000 dmg vorpals are impossible (less than 1% chance)? or just very rare and unlikely to ever see more than one on the same NM? or the full blown "2000 AVERAGE damage vorpals on (tough) NMs is impossible"?

Also, providing evidence that you were unable to reach 2000 damage VB on a NM that's known to have high defense or damage reduction really doesn't disprove anything.

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 6:13pm by xypin
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#44 Jan 28 2011 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm arguing the average paladin isn't going to be doing 2k Vorpals consistently (then again I'm convinced the average paladin is a waste of space better served on Pup but w/e). I haven't touched Vorpal since a 3rd lunar but from my own experience it has not been close to 2k average even with stalwart's but haven't tested it again after getting better atmas/hitting 90.

Although I do recognize he could improve by first using Perle hauberk on Vorpal and selling the Hauby+1, and Paladin has access to Varangian's/Zahak's and other heavy melee gear.

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 8:49pm by Neisan
#45 Jan 28 2011 at 8:32 PM Rating: Good
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Neisan wrote:
I'm arguing the average paladin isn't going to be doing 2k Vorpals consistently (then again I'm convinced the average paladin is a waste of space better served on Pup but w/e).
Then I've got no argument with you. Averaging 2000dmg VB is pretty tough since you need to consistently have 8 hits in VB for that to happen, especially on NMs in Heroes zones.

I also agree that PLD is a waste of space and almost everything my pt asks me to do, I could do on my loldrk.
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#46 Jan 28 2011 at 8:39 PM Rating: Decent
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xypin wrote:
Are we arguing that 2000 dmg vorpals are impossible (less than 1% chance)? or just very rare and unlikely to ever see more than one on the same NM? or the full blown "2000 AVERAGE damage vorpals on (tough) NMs is impossible"?

Well, I don't know if it's possible or impossible, but I'd phrase it as "Highly unlikely to see 2k average on NMs with what gears most PLDs have access to."


xypin wrote:
Also, providing evidence that you were unable to reach 2000 damage VB on a NM that's known to have high defense or damage reduction really doesn't disprove anything.

Didn't say it was proof of anything; more less listed all that trying to convince people that talking about peak damage (1272) isn't as useful as a discussion based on the average damage (822).

Also, keep in mind that I'm not really interested in peak damage; the average damage is what's important, and my original objection was against the idea that PLDs can do 2k (average) damage Vorpal Blade against (most) NMs. At the very least, I'd claim most PLDs can't come anywhere close to that.

Let me see what other NMs I've caught in recent parses:

<Monster>: <Vorpal Blade avg> (<num of Vorpal Blade used>)

Isgebind: 644.43 (7)
Upas-Kamuy: 978.94 (18)
Koghatu: 697.33 (3)
Bukhis: 464.13 (31)
Kutharei: 1048.50 (2)
Lord Varney: 849.50 (2)
Sippoy: 754.00 (2)
Yaanei: 808.25 (4)

* * *

Neisan wrote:
Think he meant hitting 2k+ consistently (as in 2k+ was average Vorpal damage) while

'Consistent' and 'average' are two different concepts.

Series A: 950, 1050, 1003, 997
If see you output like that, you can say that's fairly consistent; i.e. the numbers are close to each other.

Series B: 100, 2000, 500, 1400
In contrast, this series of numbers isn't consistent at all--the numbers are all over the place.

Both series, however, average to exactly 1000.

Now, if we try to use peak damage to get an idea of damage potential, we'd see Series A at 1050, while Series B at 2000. Is a WS outputing like B nearly twice as damaging as a WS like A? Of course not; the two have EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF DAMAGE IN TOTAL. If the sample sizes were much larger and both averages remain the same as each other, we'd can go on to claim that the two WS have the same damage potential, even though A is far more consistent than B.

Now, what kind of damage output does Vorpal Blade give? It's inconsistent--all over the place--very much in the spirit of Series B. So, if we want to discuss the damage potential of Vorpal Blade, it's important we use the average number instead of peak (or valley) numbers, because it's all too easy to get wow'ed by that one or two big numbers and forget that on average it's not a strong WS.
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#47 Jan 28 2011 at 10:59 PM Rating: Good
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IfritnoItazura wrote:
xypin wrote:
Are we arguing that 2000 dmg vorpals are impossible (less than 1% chance)? or just very rare and unlikely to ever see more than one on the same NM? or the full blown "2000 AVERAGE damage vorpals on (tough) NMs is impossible"?
Well, I don't know if it's possible or impossible, but I'd phrase it as "Highly unlikely to see 2k average on NMs with what gears most PLDs have access to."
Good, now I know why you keep giving me all these numbers. My reply (which I posted previously, but for some reason, you didn't read):
xypin wrote:
Neisan wrote:
I'm arguing the average paladin isn't going to be doing 2k Vorpals consistently (then again I'm convinced the average paladin is a waste of space better served on Pup but w/e).
Then I've got no argument with you. Averaging 2000dmg VB is pretty tough since you need to consistently have 8 hits in VB for that to happen, especially on NMs in Heroes zones.


The same claim you've made several times:
IfritnoItazura wrote:
...more less listed all that trying to convince people that talking about peak damage (1272) isn't as useful as a discussion based on the average damage (822).
But we've already talked about peak damage:
xypin wrote:
IfritnoItazura wrote:
By the way, using peak numbers as evidence that PLD are somehow decent at DD'ing isn't a good approach; comparing the averaged WS numbers would be more useful, IMO, especially for something as finicky as Vorpal Blade.
Of course this is true, but then again, you'll never hear me call pld a good DD. I'm a proud supporter of PLDs changing jobs.
...and you keep mentioning it, but no one is saying you're wrong.

IfritnoItazura wrote:
Also, keep in mind that I'm not really interested in peak damage; the average damage is what's important, and my original objection was against the idea that PLDs can do 2k (average) damage Vorpal Blade against (most) NMs. At the very least, I'd claim most PLDs can't come anywhere close to that.
You're the first person to even mention the statistic of "average damage Vorpal Blades," but somehow claim someone said it first...

IfritnoItazura wrote:
Neisan wrote:
Think he meant hitting 2k+ consistently (as in 2k+ was average Vorpal damage) while
'Consistent' and 'average' are two different concepts... [insert fightin' words]
Oi Oi, I'm pretty sure Neisan was on your side... do you even know what we're talking about?

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 11:00pm by xypin
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#48 Jan 29 2011 at 7:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Here is a route that could be taken with PLD, and it is different from some of the above ideas:

Instead of simply boosting PLD damage, and instead of giving PLD more of what it already has (that nobody needs), perhaps PLD could instead be modified to increase the DPS of a group as well as increase it's survivability in a new way. I suggest that one method of doing so would be to give PLD an aura that turns buffs cast on them into AoE, within a small radius around the PLD. This would allow a PLD to share Enlight and Phalanx with fellow front-liners, while also freeing up some back-line mage time (and MP, not that MP is currently an issue for anyone). This only makes sense if the AoE effect kicks in solely for white magic buffs. It should not work for JA buffs, nor for songs, blue magic, healing, and above all, absolutely not for ninjutsu.

On a separate train of thought, if you want to continue the tit-for-tat aspect of DRK and PLD, then give the same thing to DRK but only have their Aura only apply to black magic (spikes, boosts from Absorb spells, etc). Making Endark and Absorb TP into localized AoE spells would probably do a heck of a lot to promote DRK for parties, which is good since currently that job is not wanted for much of any traditional fighting. But I digress, and want to get back to the discussion of PLD.

The trick here would be to make it so that when others cast their spells, the enmity generated is equal to what they should produce for a standard single target buff that isn't getting Aura'd out into AoE (unless that spell is AoE naturally). However, when the PLD self buffs, his buffs should generate enmity based on each person that the Aura shares it with, meaning the PLD's Aura helps the PLD hold hate, but doesn't harm mages. (And for those following along still, if you just now thought about saying that the mages' AoE buffs should also be allowed to produce AoE enmity for the PLD... Take the next step and consider how that would create a stupid situation where mages spam the PLD with pointless buffs just to build hate, and then never consider mentioning such a horrible idea again.)

Assuming this idea is basically sound, the question then arises of whether or not enough single-target buffs exist to make PLD enticing enough for inclusion in a group. It's possible that another spell could be created (perhaps Regain for RDM?) with this buff-sharing Aura concept in mind. Separate from that possibility, another option might be to give PLD the ability to learn Stoneskin, which seems both appropriate and ideal for them in general as it has a natural CE loss prevention built into it.

So as far as the aura suggestion goes in particular, would a JT like this be enough (assume some tweaking) to make at least one PLD worth including in your groups, or is this suggestion just more pointless perks that nobody would care about anyway, like adding tits on a fish?
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#49 Jan 29 2011 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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I don't know if an aura would fix pld and make it a useful job, but would certainly be a good addition.

I'd also like to see cover changed so that anyone behind you is covered and not just some person you picked.
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#50 Jan 29 2011 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Well I used 2 different concepts to mean the same thing, that did deserve correcting, since for me when I say 'consistent' I typically do mean 'average' even though they aren't quite the same.

Quickest way to making paladin useful would be the impossible - make it a good damage dealer and make it so for X amount of time the monster focuses only on the paladin disregarding hate.

Edited, Jan 29th 2011 7:32pm by Neisan
#51 Jan 30 2011 at 6:53 AM Rating: Decent
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IfritnoItazura wrote:
Peak damage from Vorpal Blade can be 2k+, sure, especially on NQ mobs. But peak damage isn't that useful of info to know; it is not a good indicator of a PLD's damage output ability.

Here, highest VB did last night against Audumbla for me was 1272 using that set I listed earlier (w/Sentry Belt for waist). But, how did I really do?

    Vorpal Blade 
      178:    1 
      368:    1 
      424:    1 
      499:    1 
      515:    1 
      557:    1 
      650:    1 
      709:    1 
+     724:    2 
      726:    1 
      754:    1 
      761:    1 
      765:    1 
 ^    815:    1 
      818:    1 
      835:    1 
      917:    1 
      928:    1 
      947:    1 
      974:    1 
     1006:    1 
     1044:    1 
     1109:    1 
     1158:    1 
     1216:    1 
     1231:    1 
     1234:    1 
     1272:    1


It's pretty unwieldy to list and discuss each and every one of these kinds of numbers, especially if the sample size is large. So, if we are to talk about "Vorpal Blade damage", it's only logical to talk about the average, which would be 822.69 for that particular run, and the relevant conditions under which they were done (vs. Audumbla; RR, VV; no food; the gear set listed--sometimes DW, sometimes not; and, 85.71% of the time with Dia on the NM).

From this and other NMs, I'm fairly confident in saying that PLDs with comparable gear to myself would not see 2000+ average Vorpal Blade on NMs. In fact, very small portions of Vorpal Blade numbers would stray into the 2000+ territory at all.

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 3:44pm by IfritnoItazura


WTF kind of gear / atma are you using? Seriously I put out bigger numbers with Versa/M.Kris on my WAR/NIN @296 skill. And when I said 2K vorpals I was referring to the average, the "highest" type numbers are usually 3K. Are you turtleing up using taco's and HP / defense atma? Our guy usually loads our RR / Apoc / then GH SA or VV depending on his mood, eats meat and has some pretty bad a$$ WS gear. This is the difference I was talking about earlier, Crour buffs and the design of Abyssea makes defensive stats completely worthless (not that they had much worth to begin with). The WHM's now come with 2K MP, a free refill from /RDM and 10~20 MP/tick refresh, a near limitless supply of Cure V / VI. As long as the monster doesn't one shot you, you never need to worry about damage mitigation ~ever~, just spam the mob to hold its attention while spamming Flash, keep enlight up and use meat or pizza+1 depending. Its the exact same style I use when tanking on WAR/SAM, WAR/NIN, BLU/NIN, or SAM/WAR. PLD just comes with built-in JA's for staying alive and CE / VE building.
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