Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2 3
Reply To Thread

Hate control... Flash II, Can I Have It?Follow

#1 Oct 26 2010 at 9:47 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
784 posts
Okay I know its been mentioned in the past, but seriously, how can a PLD in the new world of Hellacious DD keep hate, save a TA thf or /thf. Even then I am having it ripped off. If anything at this point we are first voke/flash and then back uphealers. There is very little we can do hate wise to keep up with the kind of Dmg they are doing, Even the awesome attonement is becoming **** poor dmg by comparison. My LS just rips hate off, eveyone /nin and bounce it. they die or get healed so much the WHM get attacked. I have a small degree of control at strat but once that CE from their dmg surpasses mine even our big VE JA do very little. Am I the only one experiencing this?

I would like to see another flash or variation of such. make a 60 sec cool down, increase the blind durration, bump the CE and VE up and give us something else to compete with. Haste only gets you so far on a recast, and 5 min durration of JA doesnt help much either. If we had an alternate hate spell it might bring us back to some form of hate control.

The implemation of the new "Decreases Emnity loss by dmg taken" items are a great concept and will probably add a new aspect to blood tanks /war or /dnc with the new -PDT gear, but when a NM is slaming you for 300-400 dmg /nin is just smarter. but now were back to no voke, so /nin we have... flash, attonement spam, cure gear swaps and shadow casts. very little by comparison when a blu is popin off 3k and a 1500 distortion with their new spells it gets very discouraging. at this point I DD and back up heal cause he is officially tanking the rest of the battle.

I have been a tank for a long time and worked around many changes in this game. from back in the old Vit turtle earthstaff days to the /nin to DD for hate. I jumped all over /dnc when it came out. but reliance of a subjob is getting a tad old. just give us the tools we need to do our job, amirite? overpower? what we hold hate, its no more so than merc kirs Drk Zerg. Who cares if we have more hate tools? give a voke ability, Though id rather see CE than VE. who cares. are the nin gonna ***** cause they gotta wear atk and str gear vrs eva gear now? no, are the DD gonna ***** cause they can go all out and no fear death? no, are the healers gonna ***** when they dont have to rumage through an alliance to see who needs the next cure bomb, and pray to not get hate? no. its a new world and while phalanx and en-light are a Fun addition, its time to step up to the bar SE and give us what we need.
____________________________
Nihcru @ Bahamut
PLD 75
/Salute...
The sword held high with virtue and might,
A Shield in hand protecting what's right,
Through Darkest night may valor shine bright,
May Goddess Altana bless you with her light.
#2 Oct 27 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
287 posts
<SE> You can have flash II... but it will share a recast timer with flash, take 300 MP, and basically do absolutely nothing that flash doesn't already do. Also, it will sleep with your wife, fill your comp up with spyware downloading internet ****, leave empty milk cartons in the fridge, eat those leftovers you were looking forward to for lunch, clip it's toenails on your couch and leave them there, and occasionally kill your dog.
____________________________
90DRG 90DNC 90PLD 90COR 90RNG 90THF 90BST 81NIN
<Insert random accomplishments and/or merits that no one else cares about here>
In my day vampires sucked blood... not ****.
Friends don't let friends watch American Idol.
I killed Asmodean, let the speculation end.
#3 Oct 27 2010 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,722 posts
The problem has little to do with our hate tools and more to do with the way hate works.

Since there is a hard cap on the hateline (10000 each for CE and VE), it becomes very easy for a PLD to cap and maintain hate. The problem is that we lose so much hate for taking damage and we lose a portion of our VE every tick. The DD's, especially now with all the buffs they have received, can generate hate faster than us and we have a hard time keeping up (a 2500 damage WS generates far more than we can dream of getting from flash, for instance). And, while they've given us access to excellent DD gear, we're still held back by the relatively lower damage rating of our swords. Sure, we can use GS's or (lol)Polearms and get some 2-handed buffs, but those WS's aren't exactly stellar, either.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the best thing SE can do to help put PLDs back on the mainstay of tanking is to give us a job trait that allows us to increase the max CE and VE. Maybe have it start at an extra 1000 at, say, level 25 and increase by 1000 every 15-25 levels. If our cap was above what others could reach we'd be able to tank a lot better while still letting them go full out. Then we WOULD be accomplishing our job by keeping the mob on us AND the DDs would be able to go all out.
#4 Oct 27 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Excellent
**
879 posts
Dracoth wrote:
The problem has little to do with our hate tools and more to do with the way hate works.


QFT

Its not the fact that Flash doesnt give enough hate - the problem is that hate caps.

Any good PLD caps his hate in 5 minutes. When you have reasonable DDs, they will also cap their hate in a little bit. So you have 2 chars with hate, any time a hit lands the mob is switching.
____________________________
Khory

TybudX wrote:
The hardest part of this game is finding 5-17 other people who aren't retarded.
#5 Oct 27 2010 at 6:28 PM Rating: Excellent
Silent But Deadly
*****
19,999 posts
sevynwarr wrote:
...and occasionally kill your dog 2-8 times.
Had to fix that. :-)
____________________________
SUPER BANNED FOR FAILING TO POST 20K IN A TIMELY MANNER
#6 Oct 27 2010 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
Can't quite see where a personal cap increase will help much in your general fights where PLDs are typically considered lackluster since you won't have enough time to cap anyway. Some mobs having hate resets also throw a monkey wrench into things. I can see some merit in a forced attention JA that overrides current enmity tables, but the trick is giving it a timer that makes it useful, but not totally invalidating fights where enmity control is meant to be rough. Then again, I'm curious to see what a good PLD could do with Chant du Cygne and Razed Ruin.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#7 Oct 28 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,481 posts
Ti fix tanking it is necessary to raise the hate cap, as mentioned. Also, Seriha, Chant du Cygne shouldn't be a requirement to be able to compete against DD's, since it is a luxury item not everyone will/want have access to. Atonement was annoying to get but worth it, even if it is uselsss in short fights.

A combination of fixing the VIT/DEF formula, giving PLD native traits like enmity bonus, and also, why enmity reduction while taking damage comin' from equipment? I'm pretty sure that could be a trait of sorts as well (the merited trait blows to be honest). The shield upgrade was a step in the super right direction, but the game has evolved to zerging and TP burning, making fights last minutes, and thus making PLD not desirable for tanking.

On long drawn out fights, PLD will be a solid tank, but on short fights, we get shunned by other jobs like Monks, Samurais, Blue Mages, etc. Either make it easier for PLD to get/cap/maintain hate, or make the other job's abilities and spells generate less CE and more VE. (The recent nerfs to some Black Magic made it easier for PLD in events like Limbus, Dynamis and Einherjar, why not do the same for stuff like Quadratic Continumm, and WS related Damage?)
____________________________
Midgardsormr
Champion

Muzaa wrote:
The Paladin Code: First man in, last man out.
#8 Oct 28 2010 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
Can't equate curiosity to demanding it a requirement. PLD's DD gear isn't terrible, better than RDM's in a number of respects, even, and the job's pulled off 2k+ with modest regularity with the mentioned atma. Of course, part of the problem is other DDs having their atmas while sword WS are generally meh. Still, upping the hate cap will mean diddly in short fights while it somewhat eliminates the need for tactics in longer ones when you can just herpderp hate stack on a PLD and then eventually let DDs go balls out because it's literally impossible for them to reach the same threshold.

Hate management will need to be found in other ways, like possibly SE splitting Accomplice/Collaborator timers on THF, using a SCH for enmity tweak spells, and so on.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#9 Oct 28 2010 at 11:58 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,481 posts
In that we can agree, dying to see some reliable numbers off that (seen some claiming 700-800 and others 2500-3500, but the latter was a BG member, and I distinctively remember them flocking to Masamune and getting dissappointed with such a claim)
____________________________
Midgardsormr
Champion

Muzaa wrote:
The Paladin Code: First man in, last man out.
#10 Oct 29 2010 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
Zafire's the RDM I was alluding to. He's posted a 3.5k screenshot in the RDM forum in the Accomplishment thread, though general numbers are a bit higher than what one could expect since his target mobs were weak to slashing. I've duoed with him since we're both on Sylph and he had a 3.6k one on the same mob type while many were somewhere in the 2k range without misses. CDC is a very solid WS in Abyssea, but I also know RDM's readily accessible WS gear choices aren't exactly as meaty as PLD's, and top-of-the-line stuff is no contest.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#11 Oct 30 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
VE & CE cap at 10k each.

VE:

Assuming a level 90 target (since the generated hate for damage done is pretty much flat relative to mob level by that point), the rate of VE gain per damage is 240/61. I'm going to just treat it as 4:1 for approximations.

VE decays at a rate of 60 VE per second. 60 VE would be generated with 15 damage, so the decay rate is -15 DPS.

So, what overall DPS rate would cap VE in various intervals (after accounting for decay)? Looking at 10 second intervals:

265 DPS would cap VE in 10 seconds.
140 DPS would cap VE in 20 seconds.
100 DPS would cap VE in 30 seconds.
80 DPS would cap VE in 40 seconds.

How does that compare to potential damage rates? As my research primarily focuses on mnk, I'll use that to illustrate. (Note: this DPS assumes fairly aggressive playstyle.)

1. WoE empyrean (lower tier weapon), haste, 2x march, full usu, bison steak, RR+SS atma: 280 DPS.
2. Lvl 85 fire Taipans, haste, 2x march, standard-good 75 gear (black belt, turban, byakko's, usu feet, etc), pizza, Stout Arm atma: 165 DPS
3. Same but without marches: 110 DPS
4. Lvl 80 fire Taipans, brown belt, ACP body, aurore pants, pizza, no notable atma: 80 DPS


Aside: Entry 1 is not fully top-tier. It's certainly possible to go well over 300 DPS, and that's even before adding Haste Samba.

So you can see that at certain points, DPS ramps up pretty quick. Of note, however, is that even the relatively weak 4th example will still cap VE within about 40 seconds.

Most NM fights will last 5-10 minutes, and the DDs are going to be capping out VE well within the first minute, often in less than 30 seconds.


On the CE side, the rate is 80/61, which means it will take 7,625 damage to cap out. Using the above sample DPS values, that will take about:

1. 30 seconds
2. 45 seconds
3. 70 seconds
4. 95 seconds


So aside from damage they take, it should take no more than 2 minutes, and quite possibly about 1 minute, to completely cap hate for a DD.



What is the pld managing in the meantime?

Assume he spikes hate at the start.

Engage. Sentinel, Divine Emblem, Flash, Rampart. 1800 + 3840 + 3600 = 9,240 VE. Assuming sufficient haste, a second Flash within the 30 second window of Sentinel for 11,800 VE, and subtract 1800 decay VE, you have 10,000 VE, capped.

Congratulations, you've manged to stay ahead of the tier 3 DD for ~30 seconds. Within 45 seconds VE becomes irrelevant, as everyone should have capped it by then. Provoke from /war is also inconsequential after that point, though it gives you a faster buildup at the start.

What about the CE side?

Two Flashes while under Sentinel gives you 900 CE. After that you're dependant on cures and damage done.

Cures: Kanican hasn't updated the data for post-75, but assuming it continues the same trend, the multiplier for level 85 should be 40/61, or 0.66 * Cure amount for CE. Assuming 400 point cures, that's 262 CE per Cure IV (before +enmity), or 2.98 CE/MP, compared to 7.2 CE/MP for Flash.

It takes 2.5 seconds to cast Cure IV, so you're getting about 105 CE per second. That's the equivalent of doing 80 DPS. So, MP efficiency aside, using Cure IV in a cure kit that interrupts melee is comparable to the damage output of the tier 4 DD.

Your other source of CE is direct damage. Since your cures are gaining CE at a rate of 80 DPS, your normal damage has to be doing at least that much as well just to maintain parity with the lowest tier DDs (well, lowest tier not-completely-gimp-idiot DDs).

The DDs are getting Haste and 2x March, so you should be getting the same (at least vs tier 1 and 2). If your group decides you're not worthy of a brd, there's pretty much no way to catch up.

Full Perle + Swift Belt should be considered base minimum, for 18% gear haste. Add 37% for total magical haste and that puts you at 55%.

I'll take out time for one Flash every 25 seconds, and one Cure IV every 15 seconds. I won't take out time for Utsusemi casting since I didn't remove that from the DD's DPS either. With the casting, you're using about 22.5% of your total action time, which means your damage is going to be reduced to 77.5% of its potential. Alternatively, if your DD potential is high enough, cut cure cast frequency in half and have 85% of your total time available for meleeing. I'll split the difference and just use 80%.

So, 80% of your damage potential has to beat 80 DPS, which means innate damage potential has to be at 100 DPS or higher. With 55% haste, your unhasted damage needs to then be 45 DPS or higher. It would be nice to reach 150 total DPS, which means unhasted DPS of 85.

In general, can expect weaponskills to represent perhaps 30%-35% of total damage, so melee damage should be in the range of 30-60 DPS.

What's needed to reach that threshold?

Joyeuse: 1.45 swings per round, d35 weapon. Max fStr: 11. If capped attack, max melee DPS: 37.5. Decently above the minimum, almost enough to reach tier 3.

Shamshir +1: d52 weapon. Max fStr: 13. If capped attack, max melee DPS: 35.5. Bit below Joyeuse; should have weaponskills that are about 20% stronger, but less frequent.


Of course that depends on capped fStr, which you'll probably have (depending on DD atma chosen), and capped attack, which you probably won't have (aside from maybe War, most full time DDs can't regularly reach the attack cap). Far more likely to drop to 3/4 of that at best, which is below the threshold for 80 DPS. That can be compensated for with dual-wielding rather than using a shield (somewhat dubius tradeoff if you still need a pld for tanking) plus minor +DA gear (ie: Brutal Earring).

Caveat: All that is rather sketchy, as I haven't run real numbers on things. It's also comparing against DDs going all-out, where they are more likely to be holding back, for !! triggers if nothing else. Essentially, with proper cooperation and focus it should be possible to barely stay ahead of the DDs for short periods of fights. A thf for collab makes this a lot easier (see anecdotes below).

Edit: Actually, I forgot that the 80 DPS DD isn't getting marches. That means that the pld *with* marches and atma is struggling to keep up with the low-end DD *without* marches -or- atma. The entire concept becomes more and more of a stretch.




Given that a pld can reach 2500 HP fairly easily in Abyssea, one should also consider CE loss rates. You're losing 0.72 CE per point of damage taken. Being hit for 364 damage removes 262 CE, the amount gained from a 400 point Cure IV. As long as you can fully cure your own damage, you can maintain a neutral hate level on CE, accumulating on damage done. However it's rare to manage that, as usually serious damage comes in large spikes that you'll want a whm with Cure V/VI to patch up (ie: 1000+ damage at a go); minor damage is blinked away.


What would fix things for pld? Well, one thing that would significantly alleviate it would be to change the tier 2 Guardian merit so that it was a 100% active trait, instead of only during Sentinel. Having it only active during Sentinel makes it a complete joke, unless you happen to have Sentinel up when you get hit by a huge nuke.

5 levels of Guardian, for a 95% reduction in CE loss, would mean that 1000 damage taken would only lose you 36 CE, a completely inconsequential amount (a shadow getting hit is -25 CE). At that point there's absolutely no reason to use /nin to conserve CE (may still want to use /nin for dealing with certain types of high-damage attacks, of course). Even if they downgraded it to, say, 15% per merit level, 75% total, that's still only 180 CE loss for taking 1000 damage, which can be made up for in a single Flash.

At that point you can switch to /war for the massive damage upgrade of Berserk and Double Attack, as well as being able to better take advantage of the Creed armor set.


Alternatively, could change Guardian to be exactly that requested trait: Raise max hate cap while Sentinel is in effect (say, +1800, which would allow VE to stay above 10k for exactly the duration of Sentinel, assuming Sentinal was used at the 10k mark). Make the 'reduced hate loss from taking physical damage' a native job trait (eg: 15% every 20 levels, plus 5% from Collar, 5%/10% from Creed feet +1/+2, 10%-20% from Burtgang).



* Anecdotes:

One particular scenario that I've been in with two different groups is a setup of mnk (me) + pld + thf. One pld does a pretty good job with hate (though not ideal; I'd play it a bit differently, but I'm not asked to come pld since my mnk or thf is more useful), the other is... a bit slower.

In one particular fight, I had a really hard time with taking too much damage as mnk. To fix this, I had the thf collab me as frequently as possible, and TA the pld. It worked in helping to balance the hate between us, and things went reasonably well.

In a different fight with the less impressive pld we did the same thing. It didn't work. Part of the problem was not enough TA on the pld (this thf was also somewhat lacking), but I'm not sure that that in and of itself would have been sufficient. In the previous fight, the thf Collab'ing me turned the mob back towards the pld. In this fight, the thf Collab'ing me sent the mob chasing after the blm. Oops.

In each case, as mnk I was holding back severely, often getting to 250 TP and usually just using Shoulder Tackle as a weaponskill. I'd take occasional damage, but without Collab the mob never so much as blinked at the pld.

Not even going to bring up the third pld....


Different scenario, this time thf (me) + pld. No third DD aside from blm. In this case I always TA+WS the pld, and just do normal melee + SA otherwise (infrequent solo WS). In this setup, I -still- end up tanking a few minutes into the fight, often easily holding hate with just dagger swings (even using a gimpy Thief Knife offhand). In a couple fights I'd TA+WS the pld and then try to run around for SA and the mob would just continue to face me, this lasting for a full couple minutes (1-2 more TAs on the pld, no SA).



Essentially, the pld was a mostly useless accessory in the party. Gave tons of extra TP to the mob, making !! triggers more difficult, while not providing any particularly strong offensive benefits, and not being useful defensively (well, not entirely true; frequent use of Cover was also handy, once I got them to use it) without constant thf support. At best they're an extra cure, and maybe occasional Flash to help me evade an attack or two, plus a bit of a breather with Cover. But not a tank.


As seen in the DDs' DPS rates, there is just flat out no way that a pld can keep up with CE generated based on any of the tools pld has available. The only hope is to not lose CE as fast when taking damage in order to mostly stay ahead of the DDs (if the DDs take hate and get hit, they'll drop below the pld very quickly). Still need a good way to build CE quickly, though. Opening with a 900-1000 damage Vorpal (should be doable with good atma) while Sentinel is up would give ~2500 CE at the start, enough to be a workable lead.
#12 Oct 31 2010 at 12:01 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,481 posts
Wow Kinematics, as always incredible post!

What would you say if SE raised the max hate cap for PLD via merits? To something like 100 per merit on both categories? So in the end you cap at 10.5k for each, and therefore after a while you can tank forever provided you keep generating VE and maintaining CE in the 9501 range?

Think that would work for the longer fights where the presence of a PLD is needed, since on shorter fights PLD just can't generate CE fast enough without a THF or two.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, it might break the game since there will be a point that no one else will be at risk unless the PLD takes a big hit in CE (which is not gonna happen if you got /nin, although an AoE might do it from time to time). Maybe a "stance" similar to Yonin/Innin, "Reduces enmity generation but raises the maximum amount of enmity".

Edited, Oct 31st 2010 1:03pm by Cigarman
____________________________
Midgardsormr
Champion

Muzaa wrote:
The Paladin Code: First man in, last man out.
#13 Nov 02 2010 at 1:04 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
I don't think raising the CE cap as a general function is a good idea. If properly manipulated, it means that the mob will almost never look at anyone -except- the pld, which defeats the cooperation/coordination/risk that is intended in the fights.

As a *temporary* ability, it could be workable. EG: my idea of applying it while Sentinel was up, so at most 30 seconds every 4 minutes. During that time you can be mostly assured of staying ahead of the other combatants in total hate, while having 'normal' hate the rest of the time.

The CE loss problem, however, is pervasive. It can't be patched as a periodic temporary boost. The 'normal' hate system simply can't be overcome by a pld without relic-level gear.

Pld needs a way of keeping and maintaining CE at a reasonable level. Giving it some more thought, the full reduction I proposed above is actually a bit overboard. -36 CE for 1000 points of damage is barely more than that lost from an Utsu shadow. A nin or /nin tank, however, have to constantly fight to keep those shadows up to hold that hate; if they do get hit, 1000 damage is back to being -720 CE.

If the pld had the CE loss reduction at such a high level, once they got high enough on CE it would be virtually impossible to pull hate from them, which is just as much a gamebreaker as the raised CE cap. They need the CE loss reduction to be high enough to have a much easier time holding hate, but not a guarantee of holding hate.

So, I'd probably scale the reduction down to: 10% every 20 levels, 5%/10% from the Creed shoes, 5% from the neckpiece, and perhaps 10%-20% for Burtgang (a Mythic weapon holder should have a pretty notable advantage). That would give a max 55% reduction for non-Mythic holders, 75% with. 1000 damage would be -324 CE instead of -720, and -324 is within range of reocovery with a Cure IV, which would cure just 40% of the actual damage done.

After that, I think, SE would want to push more for pld/war type setup instead of /nin, which gives better options for CE generation.
#14 Nov 02 2010 at 7:48 PM Rating: Decent
**
341 posts
IMO, DDs able to gain enmity faster than PLD isn't a problem per se, as long as the difference isn't too substantial. (It would be problematic if they have no choice but to gain enmity faster--but right now, it's a choice.)

While the enmity gain situation probably should be tweaked a bit, as I see it, the real problem is actually the combination of:
1. The amount of MP available to healers (esp. in Abyssea),
2. The amount of damage NMs do (or don't do) to DDs, and
3. The lack of drastically better survivability of PLD compared to DDs.

Makes it so there's little incentive for DDs to hold back since just a few healers can keep them alive.

* * *

So, I think I'd prefer the route of NMs become more damaging, and at the same time PLD get (drastically) better damage mitigation.

By more damaging, I mean NMs should have a fair chance at taking out a MNK using HP+ (superior) Atma even with a decent WHM on cure. Doesn't have to be straight melee damage or even any 1-shot-kill TP move; can do so indirectly from status effects to create more danger to the front line and/or the back line, or vastly increase the cure needed with AoE attacks, etc., as long as it substantially increases the threat to the party/alliance, making it necessary to increase the ratio of healers to DDs when using DDs to tank.

That, of course, implies that PLDs have to be able to reduce the amount of curing (and number of healers) needed when they replace one or two of DDs on the front line. Some sort AoE magic damage cut and physical damage cut JAs may be good for that. (Well, only matters if NMs become much more dangerous, of course.)

This way, groups which can field more healers to keep people upright can still use DDs 'tanks' for faster but more dangerous fights, while groups which cannot can go with PLD tank(s) for slower but safer fights.

As much as I am an enthusiastic booster of PLD (being a PLD main myself lately), I don't want there to be one and only way to fight most NMs. There should be multiple viable tactics, each with different mix of costs and benefits.

* * *

Also, would be nice to get job trait or ability to (partially) negate enmity reset. That'd make my day.
____________________________
Itazura of Ifrit
#15 Nov 15 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,755 posts
Would it make a difference if the pld/nin used fast attacking multi hitting swords with Raise Ruins atma and enlight up full time??? Basically should hit about a 50% crit rate at least loss of a shield but could the damage make up for that lost? Since ppl are using mnks who can't use a shield but do have guard and counter vs pld parry. Thoughts? just thinking outside the standard box and what about sanguine blade spam with its damage and heal as a hate tool....

Edited, Nov 15th 2010 1:26pm by kenshynOnShiva
____________________________
....::: All Jobs 99 but GEO and RUN :::....
Genbu [O] Suzaku [O] Seiryu [O] Byakko [O] Kirin [O] In Loving Memory of Kirin RIP 3/6/05
xXIEOSIXx Forums on Shiva


[ffxivsig]340581[/ffxivsig]
#16 Nov 16 2010 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,778 posts
I use a combination of Razed Ruins and Sanguine Scythe as far as Atma goes.
DEX (By an extension... Accuracy), x2 boosts to critical hit damage and a solid boost to critical hit rate.
HP and Enmity from SS as well.
I rarely have MP issues as i usually have a Red Mage with Refresh II around, failing that i bring all three Lucid Ethers and some Elixer's.
I'm looking at 240+ damage on a critical hit from melee, add about 30-40 from Enlight too.
Hate's never really an issue unless some DD rips hate off me at the start of an NM battle with an epic WS beefed by Razed Ruins, in which case... they're asking for it.


In most NM fights we do in Abyssea we have DD's stay back until we get a magic stagger, so by the time we've got it i've got pretty solid hate.

Edited, Nov 16th 2010 2:15pm by Tatham
____________________________
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

Invictus -- William Ernest Henley
#17 Nov 16 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,755 posts
Cool cool good to know thanks!!!
____________________________
....::: All Jobs 99 but GEO and RUN :::....
Genbu [O] Suzaku [O] Seiryu [O] Byakko [O] Kirin [O] In Loving Memory of Kirin RIP 3/6/05
xXIEOSIXx Forums on Shiva


[ffxivsig]340581[/ffxivsig]
#18 Nov 18 2010 at 5:17 AM Rating: Decent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
Unless SE tweaked Enlight specifically, additional effects do not count toward enmity. So, while a multi-hitter will let you get the most out of Enlight as quickly as possible, it's not exactly going to help your hate. Nonetheless, you are on the right track considering a multi-hitter for getting the most out of a magic WS. It won't be the most damaging option available with Vorpal potentially scoring higher as well as CDC, but in Sanguine's case, the cure does help in a utility sense.

Personally, I don't buy the current hype that PLD is useless in Abyssea. It just requires them to possibly play differently. Flash still works for the benefit of others, as do your cures and Cover.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#19 Nov 18 2010 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
***
2,722 posts
Seriha wrote:
Unless SE tweaked Enlight specifically, additional effects do not count toward enmity. So, while a multi-hitter will let you get the most out of Enlight as quickly as possible, it's not exactly going to help your hate.


While it's true that the added affect doesn't help hate, the +accuracy bonus it provides certainly helps. The two most important stats for a PLD are Haste and Accuracy, followed then by Enmity, so using enlight will boost your hate by increasing your odds of getting it from melee and building up for faster WS's.

Seriha wrote:
Personally, I don't buy the current hype that PLD is useless in Abyssea. It just requires them to possibly play differently. Flash still works for the benefit of others, as do your cures and Cover.


I agree on this. I still prefer using my BLU, though. It even tanks better.
#20 Dec 01 2010 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
**
779 posts
What you wanted, Flash II.

What you got.

Sepulcher (PLD Lv.87 Ability Delay: 10 min. Effect Duration: 3 min.)
Lowers accuracy, evasion, magic accuracy, magic evasion, and TP gain for undead.

And also, protect V.

I feel like Charlie Brown during Halloween, with a rock inside my trick or treat bag.
____________________________
Dreakon of Bismark
Drk90 Pld90 Cor90
Pirate Tea Party
#21 Dec 01 2010 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
***
2,236 posts
SE wrote:
In addition to the above, performance-enhancing tweaks will be introduced for a host of existing job abilities. The exciting details will be announced in the very near future, so stay tuned!


Can't say for certain what else might be getting changed yet, so there's still hope.
#22 Dec 01 2010 at 8:02 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
784 posts
Dreakon wrote:
What you wanted, Flash II.

What you got.

Sepulcher (PLD Lv.87 Ability Delay: 10 min. Effect Duration: 3 min.)
Lowers accuracy, evasion, magic accuracy, magic evasion, and TP gain for undead.

And also, protect V.

I feel like Charlie Brown during Halloween, with a rock inside my trick or treat bag.


Good Grief, Ughhhhh, ProV, Ill take it I suppose /sigh. somethings better than nothing. and Sepulcher, Holy Circle II. yay?
____________________________
Nihcru @ Bahamut
PLD 75
/Salute...
The sword held high with virtue and might,
A Shield in hand protecting what's right,
Through Darkest night may valor shine bright,
May Goddess Altana bless you with her light.
#23 Dec 07 2010 at 12:19 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,481 posts
I would LOVE a nice range AoE Flashga to mke cure cheats on multiple enemies instead of curing the sleepers
____________________________
Midgardsormr
Champion

Muzaa wrote:
The Paladin Code: First man in, last man out.
#24 Dec 07 2010 at 8:30 AM Rating: Decent
PLD could use a JA or spell that's guaranteed to pull the mob's attention for 5-10 seconds maximum(any longer might be too overpowered for zerging). Make it ignore all hate/enmity rules and slap a 5 minute recast on it. Another welcome ability, call it 'Savior' would target a pt member and would decrease their current enmity, or maybe even absorb it, like a reverse trick attack or spirit surge-super jump

Edited, Dec 7th 2010 6:30am by TheHolyDragoonSeraphus
____________________________
DRG75/RDM75/PLD75


One to be born
from a dragon
hoisting the light
and the dark
arises high
up in the sky
to the still land.
Veiling the moon with the light of eternity
it brings another promise to mother Earth
with a bounty and mercy.
#25 Dec 09 2010 at 4:00 PM Rating: Default
**
341 posts
TheHolyDragoonSeraphus wrote:
Another welcome ability, call it 'Savior' would target a pt member and would decrease their current enmity, or maybe even absorb it, like a reverse trick attack or spirit surge-super jump


So, you want Accomplice/Collaborator? Or an Enmity Douse which can be used on party members? Or would you rather have Animus Minuo?

No offense, but I don't really want to see PLD becoming more like other jobs. (Kind of like what SCH is doing yet again compared to RDM, making each less distinctive.)

* * *

Personally, I rather the Atmas be toned down a bit and the monsters made more dangerous, but people are stupidly afraid of 'nerfs' of any sort, especially when it comes to their precious damage output.

If there's no real threat, there's no need for a tank. If there's no need for a tank, there's no need for a Paladin. Hence, more dangerous monsters (and thus harder fights) are a good thing for Paladins.

If we need a Paladin to tank, though, the semi-AFK DDs shouldn't be able to out generate enmity from auto-attack while a PLD is using everything in his ******* short of SP. It's also not right that MNKs with HP Atma have better survivability than PLDs without adversely impacting the healers. Hence, nerfs needed. (*Ducks the bricks being thrown*)

Just saying...

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 2:01pm by IfritnoItazura
____________________________
Itazura of Ifrit
#26 Dec 09 2010 at 4:36 PM Rating: Excellent
**
712 posts
IfritnoItazura wrote:
It's also not right that MNKs with HP Atma have better survivability than PLDs without adversely impacting the healers. Hence, nerfs needed. (*Ducks the bricks being thrown*)

Just saying...

How do you figure? Monks always been a better defensive job than PLD when played right. They have naturally more HP(you dont need any HP atmas in abyssea atm) than PLD, more PDT gear than pld, counter > shield proc, enough fire resistance gear to tank most mobs outside of Tiamat(not including augmented items). I think the only part they suffered is in the magic damage department, their gear is more limited.
____________________________
SERVER: IFRIT
WHM/BRD: Triangulum
PLD
MNK
SAM
BLM
DRK

« Previous 1 2 3
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 1 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (1)