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Tanking in a vermy? D:?Follow

#1 May 01 2010 at 5:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Let me preface by saying normally i'm wearing a hauby and sipahi as a level 67 PLD. Lately though, i find myself near full timing my vermillion as a sort of complaint against the refreshers i keep getting into parties with. They have all sucked, in the last four or five groups i've been in. =(

Post if you hate pickup parties! :D


on a side note when is swift blade more useful than vorpal blade? x3
#2 May 01 2010 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good
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Aiyl wrote:
when is swift blade more useful than vorpal blade? x3


Making skillchains / never.
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#3 May 01 2010 at 10:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Aiyl wrote:
Let me preface by saying normally i'm wearing a hauby and sipahi as a level 67 PLD. Lately though, i find myself near full timing my vermillion as a sort of complaint against the refreshers i keep getting into parties with. They have all sucked, in the last four or five groups i've been in. =(

Post if you hate pickup parties! :D


on a side note when is swift blade more useful than vorpal blade? x3


Cardinal sin as far as I'm concerned. Level cooking and make juices is what I do when I'm not getting a consistent flow of refresh.
#4 May 01 2010 at 11:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Cardinal sin as far as I'm concerned. Level cooking and make juices is what I do when I'm not getting a consistent flow of refresh.


Any decent party wouldn't be letting you make any juices.

Course, that's besides the point when the OP is already saying the parties are crap.

Edited, May 2nd 2010 2:00am by Fynlar
#5 May 02 2010 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Meh it's a bad cycle. If you overperform (borderline mainheal on Pld much?) from the start someone else (Whm,Rdm) will start slacking. You shouldn't need a Vermy to be able to fulfill your duties.
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#6 May 02 2010 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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Setup: PLD, DNC, THF, SMN, BRD, SCH level sync 61, regular colibri
dual wieldy but piercy so i figured it could go alright.

This bard was singing min-mad and pianissimo-ing ballads to our sch whilest meleeing, dualwielding knives (one of which was a triple dagger, dunno what the other was) wearing full chr+ gear and stopped meleeing only to pull at a meripo type pace. SMN never ever once got ballad even after asking a couple times.

Eventually replaced the bard with a better bard and the dnc with a polearm sam and things went nicely after that. x3

Some problems with this party besides the bard, but i'm not too picky about setups as long as people do what they're invited for, more or less.

:D


edit-reply: i should be able to ride flash and reprisal though, nyah? =(

Edited, May 2nd 2010 4:07pm by Aiyl
#7 May 03 2010 at 9:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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swift blade more useful than vorpal blade?

It's useful whenever you're overcamping and vorpal blade is having horrible accuracy issues. It can't crit and has one less hit than vorpal, but it's more accurate and has stronger mods and multipliers than vorpal.

If you're leveling with a sam it's great for opening/closing darkness with gekko. If you pay close enough attention to your melees' JA use and general activity over time it's not too hard to tell when they're about to WS. Windower users can also use TParty to help with this. If you can semi-reguarly make your sam close darkness without gimping either of your tp uses, then your party's overall damage will see much more benefit out of swift than vorpal.
#8 May 04 2010 at 3:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Aiyl wrote:
Setup: PLD, DNC, THF, SMN, BRD, SCH level sync 61, regular colibri
dual wieldy but piercy so i figured it could go alright.


you figured wrong, that party is too mage heavy.

<leader> pt do you need it? pld dnc smn brd sch
<competent player> what the @#%^? no. you just listed 5 jobs and 0 of them are DDs*
<leader> the SMN will DD with spells
<competent player> you should quit the game immediately

seriously, don't accept sh*tty setups. tell the leader to reorganize, it's better for everyone. acquiescing just wastes everyone's time; you're not being selfish by refusing to party with idiotic setups, you're helping every party member. if you don't know the difference, you're not trying nearly hard enough (and you don't have to try hard to play the game well).

edit: forgot my little footnote...

* PLD is a decent DD, but chances are the PLD in such a party won't be DDing very well.

Edited, May 4th 2010 5:49am by milich
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#9 May 09 2010 at 12:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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darnimsexy wrote:
Quote:
swift blade more useful than vorpal blade?

It's useful whenever you're overcamping and vorpal blade is having horrible accuracy issues. It can't crit and has one less hit than vorpal, but it's more accurate and has stronger mods and multipliers than vorpal.

If you're leveling with a sam it's great for opening/closing darkness with gekko. If you pay close enough attention to your melees' JA use and general activity over time it's not too hard to tell when they're about to WS. Windower users can also use TParty to help with this. If you can semi-reguarly make your sam close darkness without gimping either of your tp uses, then your party's overall damage will see much more benefit out of swift than vorpal.


QFE



Also, I feel the OP's frustration, but it does go both ways. I kind of disagree with the PLD main healing is overperforming comment. When I play RDM, my biggest pet peeve is paladins that seem to obsess about having full MP. I think that PLD *should* main heal himself and heal the PT when he has excess MP.

I let those full MP PLD's drop to orange before throwing a cure2 unless they are actively trying to heal themselves, or are low on MP. Usually they get a little scared and start healing themselves more. If that doesn't work I just flat out ask them to heal themselves more.
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#10 May 09 2010 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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TeKniSSioN wrote:
Also, I feel the OP's frustration, but it does go both ways. I kind of disagree with the PLD main healing is overperforming comment. When I play RDM, my biggest pet peeve is paladins that seem to obsess about having full MP. I think that PLD *should* main heal himself and heal the PT when he has excess MP.

I let those full MP PLD's drop to orange before throwing a cure2 unless they are actively trying to heal themselves, or are low on MP. Usually they get a little scared and start healing themselves more. If that doesn't work I just flat out ask them to heal themselves more.


in parties with real tanks, yes, a PLD with an excess of MP ought to be curing more than the RDM unless melees are going all-out and hate isn't a problem. if hate isn't a problem, the PLD shouldn't be sacrificing needed DD to do a RDM's job. if you're saying that you don't cure PLD75s in merit parties b/c you expect them to cure themselves, you're doing it wrong on multiple levels.

Edited, May 9th 2010 8:45pm by milich
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#11 May 10 2010 at 4:40 AM Rating: Decent
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TeKniSSioN wrote:
Also, I feel the OP's frustration, but it does go both ways. I kind of disagree with the PLD main healing is overperforming comment. When I play RDM, my biggest pet peeve is paladins that seem to obsess about having full MP. I think that PLD *should* main heal himself and heal the PT when he has excess MP.


Ofcourse when you have enough/max mp you should be throwing out some Cures, but that's not what going on here. This guy is using a Vermy because he does not get enough backup from his healer/refresher or because he's too wastefull with his own mp by throwing out too many Cures to "help out" the the healers.

TeKniSSioN wrote:

I let those full MP PLD's drop to orange before throwing a cure2 unless they are actively trying to heal themselves, or are low on MP. Usually they get a little scared and start healing themselves more. If that doesn't work I just flat out ask them to heal themselves more.


See if the OP started out with a Vermy in an exp party with you being the healer. You would have automatically adjusted to the extra mp he got from the cloak (waiting for orange mana) and taking it more easy. Which is a natural respondse, nothing bad on your part. But for the OP he could have performed better in other gear.

If the OP had started the exp party with his optimal gear set you would have Cured him a bit quicker (his mana would be in orange faster then when having a Vermy on).

Edited, May 10th 2010 12:41pm by RedGalka
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#12 May 12 2010 at 6:58 AM Rating: Good
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Aiyl wrote:

on a side note when is swift blade more useful than vorpal blade? x3


When you can close darkness with it.

Dont hold your tp for closing darkness though. Not worth.
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#13 May 12 2010 at 6:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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milich wrote:


in parties with real tanks, yes, a PLD with an excess of MP ought to be curing more than the RDM unless melees are going all-out and hate isn't a problem. if hate isn't a problem, the PLD shouldn't be sacrificing needed DD to do a RDM's job. if you're saying that you don't cure PLD75s in merit parties b/c you expect them to cure themselves, you're doing it wrong on multiple levels.

Edited, May 9th 2010 8:45pm by milich


Well, I was speaking from a non-75 pt,because thats what this thread was about,and because I have never seen a PLD in a colibri pick up pt, and i probably wouldn't be too keen on that idea unless I was convinced somehow that the PLD had the gear to support a TP burn setup (by inspecting him or if he was known as friend etc), otherwise why get a pld? get a gimp sam or drg (out of the 20 in LFG) and it will outperform a pld.
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#14 May 13 2010 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Vermy isn'y even an extra cure 2 per minute, and a cure 2 isn't sufficient enmity to do much with. So a good chance you're better off in your haub, not like you would be evading in either piece!

Auto refresh and sanction should be covering your flashes, ~40mp/min flash 25mp/~35-40seconds. If you gear for DD with haub, PCC, etc you can generally stay ahead on hate with just flashing, voking, and meleeing.

If your meleeing gear is less good you could indeed be better off spamming more cures with the aid of refresh, vermy, and parade. They at least can't whiff, so you'll for sure get a decent amount of enmity though chances are if you can't competently melee you're mucked. In a good party you shouldn't be able to purely control hate anyways so you'll want to mix it up depending on who you're with.

For a non-garbage party you usually need at least 3 DDs. Fill the remaining three with 1-2 mages, tank, and/or 1-2 support. Ideally you'll just have 4 DDs, cor, and pulling brd with a PL though obviously isn't the standard for most players. In the day of melee burning birds, you can easily find setups to get you over 10k an hour non-PL'd...which doesn't include half the party not DDing.

Swift blade's acc bonus and 30% mnd will probably do you more good than vorpal's extra hit and crit, though once you get strong DD gear you should be able to put out better vorpals than swifts. Low level xping you shouldn't have that high of dex so your vorpals will really just be a 4 hit 30% str vs a 3 hit 30str/mnd with acc bonus.
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#15 May 14 2010 at 10:28 AM Rating: Default
Look defense is worthless at almost any level tanking as PLD, it's shield procs that are going to mitigate damage. So here's my advice. Full Timing Vermy isn't going to break you, what's a few points of STR going to do for a 1h weapon on a VT-IT bird anyway. You have a couple options if you're not getting refreshed.

1) Wear Vermy fulltime, use MP only for flashes and never for cures and maintain your hauby or whatever you're wearing, still macroing in AF for flashes/provokes etc.

2) Wear your normal gear, siphai w/e, use MP only for Flashes, then use Vermy between pulls, or when the mob is less than 25% HP.


When I leveled PLD a lot of times it was with a WHM and SCH and no RDM, so I didn't have a refresher. Since that was the case I didn't really need MP to cure since we had 2 healers, provoke/flash was enough. As long as you get haste and have some enmity gear for Voke/Flash and haste for recast you should be fine using Vermy full time.

Flash is a 45s recast and with 3mp/refresh from auto/vermy/sanction you'll get 30-45mp MP back between flashes(depending on haste), since Flash is only 25 MP you'll still have MP for cures here and there.
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#16 May 14 2010 at 11:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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TheHolyDragoonSeraphus wrote:
what's a few points of STR going to do for a 1h weapon on a VT-IT bird anyway.
Yeah! You don't need that Accuracy, Attack or DEX either! Take that, Haubergeon, look at my extra 20 MP per minute and weep!
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#17 May 14 2010 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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TheHolyDragoonSeraphus wrote:
what's a few points of STR going to do for a 1h weapon on a VT-IT bird anyway.


Umm, what? STR influences 1-handers more than any other job, due to the lower base damage of 1-handed weapons. Sure, STR has bigger attack increases for 2-handers, but fSTR alone makes up for this. Considering Haubergeon has 5 STR on it, you're guaranteed to get at LEAST one base damage increase by wearing it with a 25% chance of getting two. Note that fSTR isn't affected by level correction - only pDIF is. As such, the haubergeon is the single most important piece of equipment a PLD can wear when fighting in an XP party. It has everything a PLD needs to effectively melee - STR increases for both Attack and fSTR, Dex for accuracy and lolCritIncrease, which will be rare for a PLD in XP, Attack to raise pDIF, and Accuracy to actually hit the target. IT's really aren't that far out of range for a PLD, especially if you're taking the typical IT-- routes.

The gains that full-timing Vermy gives you really aren't as significant as the gains given by Haubergeon. I'd also strongly recommend that if you don't have a refresher to invest in juices. Besides, in a few months, not having a refresherRDM will be more of a moot point. SCH's, particularly, are going to make out like bandits when they can finally /RDM41 and higher. It'll be even better if Refresh isn't affected in the slightest - i.e., /RDM still gets full returns on Refresh.

Edited, May 14th 2010 11:50am by Dracoth
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#18 May 14 2010 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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TheHolyDragoonSeraphus wrote:
Full Timing Vermy isn't going to break you

Wearing full AF with lolVIT/DEF accessories won't break you either because parties don't give a **** what a PLD tank wears, as long as he gets hit. That doesn't make it correct however.

Cherrypick aside, choice #2 is the best way to go. What alot of people don't realize is the more damage you do, the faster the mob dies, the less HP you lose, and thus the more MP you save.
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