A Shantotto Ascension AugmentsFollow

HP+25 & enmity+4 paired with cure potency +5% will make for a phenomenal cure macro piece.

Can also make it for flash, 3 haste + 4 enmity, provided that you use Nuevo for flashes anyhow, and have swift/3/5homam, that means you wouldnt need the fast cast on homam to cap out your recast timers provided that you only need 15%(if you need more, dont stop using homam, its like byakko pants for spells).

Nuevo - ~2.5%
Homam H - 3%
S.Legs - 3%
Swift belt - 4%
Homam F -3%
= 15%
If you have V.belt you can toss on IR body instead.

I'm thinking the HP+25 Enmity+4, Movement Speed +8% would be a pretty sweet alternative to Crimson Cuisses if you don't own them.

When compared to ACC+7 or Haste+3%, Yes. It's not worth concidering.

While i agree its inv -1, you can do what i am planning, which is get the acc and haste, then dump it once I get homan and request for another job.

As a none-homam owning Paladin (and Drg!) I am deffinately getting the Haste enchant for one, but still debating on what to get for the second. Id like to gear my Paladin first before my Drg so will focus on that, but if what I can create will help both all the better.

I was initially thinking Haste and PDT but since the haste stuff is really useful when nin tanking, the PDT aspect of the pants will go largely unused and, as someone mentioned theres nothing stopping macroing in some darksteel for oh-sh*te moments? Acc+7 could be nice, but since my Drg is largely hitcapped and for Paladin I dont think it weighs up next to the EMN+4, Move+8% or Cure Potency.

I havent done any end-game, so my options currently equipment wise are gotten from low man NMs and events (like Nyzul) and the AH. I already have IR Legs so I could effectively make a version of them with Haste added which would be nice, but I doubt Ill ever see any other moment speed or cure potency gear for legs.

Any suggestions? Im all ears :)

You know thinking about this some more another possibility would be to use this as a WS option for Vorpal with Acc+7 Atk+7 coupled with the str +2 this ends up being better than Galliard Trousers and Askar Dirs. Definitely worth considerations.


No, double attack has diminishing returns, meaning the more you add, the less you get overall for your DoT. 7 acc is a 3.5% increase to your DoT and every other possibility either haste, attack, or enmity & hp all are better options for your hate holding or DoT than 2% double attack ever will do.

Assuming the BC isn't as lame as MKE I plan on getting Movement Speed and Enmity. Not that I kite all that often on PLD, but it does come up. Once BLM is finished i'll dump it for the BLM + speed.

If it is another lame BC that I'll end up going 1/12 on with shout groups, my BLM will just have to do without the + speed.

I have even less of a chance at gaiters than I do getting wlegs.. and I rarely do sky anymore. +speed is far more attractive to me than slightly better than homam legs for TP. I have plenty of acc with aurum and askar legs to choose from.

I already have a decent cure macro piece with Iron Ram pants. HP+28 Enmity+4. Doesnt have the + potentcy, but I'd rather have + movement speed than 202hp Cure IIIs.

Thats because you are calculating its effectiveness differently. Yes if you add 50% more DA, you will do attack 50% more times in w/e amount of attack rounds you have. However what kind of increase over all you get from it, is different.

You get more by going from 0-5% DA than going from 40-45% DA. Even though you are adding exactly the same amount of DA(5%) its not as *potent* as it was when you first started out with 0. You can argue that that may not be considered diminshing, but how effective or how potent it is higher up, can not be argued as it is not as potent higher up as it was with less amount. Heres examples by other people :



As you can see, the % from 2% DA goes down the higher amount that its applied to, vs when it was first applied to at a 0%. You still get 2% DA that percent doesnt change, however how effective that 2% is goes down with how much more DA you are stacking it to.




If you are capped on acc, yes adding DA/crit/att/str are always better, however if you could add haste to w/e slot you are doing, that would better than the above til you hit cap.


Yes but where are you or what situation that you find yourself at a 95% hit rate always?? Chances are, by going with acc gear in the first place, you got there. If you take some off to put in other gear, you would probably lose it. Dont eat sushi/rolls/songs to cap off acc. If you are on PLD, Id only be eating sushi on HNMs or mobs higher than exp mobs. If we are assuming this is only for pld job, you will never be at acc cap just on gear alone, ever at exp camps.

It would probably help if you pointed out what you were thinking of using your DA pants on. For pld they are useless at exp camps, because you will never be at cap outside of pizza+1 mamools camp. And even then I wouldnt melee with 2% DA as joytoy has a 45~50% DA rate and toss in dual weilding Justice and you get a less % in tossing in 2% DA vs more att/acc/str for Pld.




No, they are about the same enmity being generated. 5% Cure potency will generate 7 units of CE aswell 4enmity on flash. That why I added it as an alternative. You dont add in the enmity +4 from the pants into the equation because you already get +4 from IR so you cant add them into the equation when seeing how much enmity 5% cure potency adds vs 4enmity for pants.

Going off my max cure III with 5% cure potency
193*1.05 = 202.65
202.65 * .727 = 147.32 CE

193*.727 = 140.31 CE

This gives me a total of 7 CE gain for 5% cure potency. Now for flash its easy
flash base CE is 180

180* 1.04 = 187.20
Giving me the same exact 7 CE gain.

So it really comes down to how many cures you usually do vs flashes. Few things that I considered before suggesting this was, some people dont have/use cure cheats, flashes are mp efficient, after 4-5 minutes you're usually just spamming flashes over cures anyhow, if you're galka or elvaan your mp pool cant really support much lol;;. Esp if your refresh rate isnt as high as others.

For me, im going to go with cure potency+enmity just because I tend to spam cures at the beginning on myself more often than not. I try to balance it out as best as possible, using more with Chivalry/devotion and poping a cure IV with Sentinel, etc.

It's the exact right way to say it if you're talking about the percentage increase of attacks per round, though. How much of an increase is it to go from 100 to 105 attacks in a round? How much of an increase is it to go from 140 to 145 attacks in a round? This is one of the common interpretations for what diminishing returns is. The exact same number of extra attacks has lower impact the more you're swinging to start with (in a given time period). BOTH cases win out over the base line, but as you get farther away from the baseline per piece, the less each piece is helping the bottom line.

DA +2 is worthless compared to everything else you could get.

This is true, but you should already have 202 from hospitaler earring in your cure cheat over the alternative of hades +1. These pants put you to 210+, and you're right it depends on whether you cure cheat. The only issue there, is that if a paladin isn't cure cheating then 9 times out of 10, they're not tanking either unless their ls gives them a stupidly long period of time to build hate.

You also have to factor in the additional sentinel hate from bigger cures, whether its a 210 cure 3 or a 410 cure 4. Cure potency is the only thing that boosts your cures during sentinel, so this should be a top priority for a nice chunk of additional hate at the crucial first 30-45 seconds of the fight. If it wasn't for atonement, tanking with templar mace would still probably be semi-common with the +10% potency and the enormous hate this adds up to.

Sorry, the cure potency just seems like an easy issue, because its the only stat on the pants that hugely benefits paladin and we can't get from another gear in extremely similar amounts. It just stands out for the pants in the same way the fast cast stood out on the body.

Edited, Oct 31st 2009 11:46pm by Asdrabael

Keep in mind that I don't actually disagree with you. I just thought that your word choice was poor for clarifying that particular misunderstanding, so I elaborated on your point. Just a point of semantics, really, not an argument.

Accuracy is linear and diminishing in the exact same way as double attack. You're using different methods for the two stats. You've actually used the same computation as the original question asker in regards to accuracy. Yes, your hit rate increases by 3.5% whether you are at 50% accuracy or at 90% accuracy (i.e. you connect 3.5 more swings per hundred). But using the percentage change method, you'd say that:

53.5/50 = 1.07
93.5/90 = 1.039 - "diminishing returns"

Consider a function relating number of connected swings and double attack, and one relating the number of connected swings and accuracy. Both are absolutely linear. However, if you compute percentage change at different points on the function, you'll get dimishing returns on both. In fact, this is true for ALL UPWARD SLOPING LINEAR FUNCTIONS. Try it out, you'll see that this holds true. And we know this to be true in practice, too - accuracy is more valuable the lower your accuracy is, despite the fact that it increases your hit rate at a linear rate. It's EXACTLY the same with double attack.

The question becomes, what is the value of computing percentage change at various points along the line? The reason is because this math captures the importance of making gear choices in context. Otherwise, it would be entirely meaningless for practical purposes.

This is somewhat convoluted, but I believe it can be summed up unequivocally with three points:

(1) For the purposes of increasing raw damage dealt, double attack and accuracy are LINEAR.

(2) The value of stacking double attack and accuracy suffers from diminishing returns. This is NOT because these stats increase your damage by any less at higher values.

(3) For the practical purpose of making gear decisions, ONLY statement #2 is relevant.

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 5:27pm by Dayn

Thats basically what I typed up, not sure what you are trying to point out. I agree probably poor wording, but not everyone understands how math works, so I used the easiest words I could think of.