I am the one who disagreed. I've asked other Paladins, myself being a fully merited PLD for a few years now.
First, while Atonement is a great WS, I do not agree with the statements. The PLD up for discussion was not me, but another in a shell I am in who threw a fit for being asked to put more enmity gear on.
What statements are you disagreeing with? All of our statements are true.
The mob in question is Genbu. The Paladin was the only paladin in the party currently and we didn't feel the need to get a replacement for our main paladin since the secondary paladin was here and Genbu is relatively simple. When the mob was popped, the paladin proceeded to Atonement off the start (mistake there, I prefer spirits within when I start but I didn't call him on it). He did maybe 200 damage. He wasn't able to atonement a second time till the mob was at 20%. His acc was less than 70% from what I've been told by others in the shell. By this time, obviously Genbu was killing BLMs. My stance is if you can't effectively use Atonement as an enmity generating tool you obviously shouldn't be using it as the only tool. I realize the debate over the -acc and +DA from Mac+1 v Joytoy debate but if your acc is that low, you can't rely on your meleeing to do you much good. If I ever lose hate on that type of NM, I wouldn't just run around waiting to build up TP despite missing so often. I would start curing the mages getting hit, flashing and using my job abilities.
This isn't a case of Atonement working/not working or even Enmity gear vs. other gear. It's a case of a moron PLD. Honestly, Enmity gear wouldn't have helped him at all if he was relying on Atonement ONLY to hold hate. And he can't even be "DD PLD" if his accuracy was 70%. Mine was higher than that even in turtle gear. Your last sentence in particular shows what a GOOD PLD does. According to this side of the story, he was not a good PLD. DD PLD and Atonement is ONE facet of being a PLD. It's worth building towards and using. But no one facet wins out.
Paladins have plenty of ways to get enmity, JA, Flash, Cures, etc. If your acc is far below par for the course, you will not be able to get hate that way since every one else would have much higher enmity generation. Sky NMs generally go down fast and in this case using Atonement spam is the wrong way to go. I've asked around the other big sky shells on our server and consensus is that for Sky, using joytoy for NMs is a big no no. You simply don't have the time to generate the hate you are expecting generate since atonement is based on how much hate you hold.
Starts off good ends bad. Using Joytoy is perfectly acceptable AS LONG AS it's not your main source for hate. A good PLD can cap VE in the first 15ish seconds of the fight without swinging their sword more than once. That's a huge boost to Atonement damage. THEN the CE gets ratcheted up and the PLD will hold hate better. But, it's not from simply opening with Atonement.
We are one of the oldest Sky LS on Quetz server and typically beat an NM down in a few minutes. Despite that, our main paladins almost never lose hate because they do their jobs. This was a case where a new recruit wanted to do something different, couldn't keep hate like he planned and almost ruined a pop by trying something new. We were at fault too for not stopping him prior or simply having a second paladin to back it up if/when he lost hate. On the subsequent pops, we did have someone change to be paladin and hate was maintained despite heavy melee/nukers. It wasn't just massive BLM spam on the start for the new PLD and holding back on the other. The second went down faster due to no BLMs KOing and the paladin holding hate with the standard setup.
Again, it's not an issue of setup - your initial PLD didn't act like a PLD should and thus lost hate. I think I've said this already, but DD PLD doesn't preclude the use of JA's, flash, and Cures. It supplements it and gives it a VERY solid CE generation.
I'm sure some will disagree with me and still stand by the atonement debate. I just go with results.
I go with results, too, and my results have been positive for the Atonement debate.
The results are the new paladin doing what they are doing versus our normal paladin, the normal paladin held hate better and no KOs.
Again, it's not the style, it was the PLD. Give someone with a little experience the same set up and you wouldn't have seen this problem.
The gear on the main paladin isn't that hard to obtain like IR gear etc so it's not like it's gear outweighing the other new PLD. The proof is in the pudding, if what you're doing doesn't work, time to think of something new. You can't just go by what works on paper, you have to understand why it works and get a good result from that. More over, testing theories on pop days is wasteful, disrespectful to the linkshell as a whole, and all in all just plain selfish. On the off chance we wiped and lost the pop, you essentially just wasted the time of 18 people.
THIS I agree with. But, working something on paper and then getting a chance to practice it is essential, too. He needs the opportunity to refine his method. It should be done - again, the proof is in the pudding - but going half assedly into it (which, by your account, he did) is NOT the way to show something works.
Also, why are your BLMs dieing to Genbu? Hate control or not, he's not exactly hard to out run. I knew a few BLMs that trio Genbu on a regular basis with no other support whatsoever. The other gods, sure, I can believe that, but Genbu?
I never did get atonement before I quit. Never once saw a Brave Blade drop in 150+ runs (100+ wins against bosses, too) and never made it to floor 100 for a guaranteed drop. But, I've tanked EVERY Sky NM with my typical setup (DD while shadows up, Shield/PDT while shadows down) and held hate over "typical" PLD's who tried their best to rip it off me. Atonement only would have stacked the deck in my favor.
I've shared this before, one just REALLY recently, but I overnight changed my LS's attitude on DD PLD by "accidentally" showing up to a Byakko fight PLD/NIN. I held hate for everything but the initial Voke from the PLD/WAR I was cotanking with. For the first time in my shell's history, we won without a single death. EVERYTHING changed after that.
Now, I don't come on forums here very much as you can see from my post count so I probably won't be coming back to defend this point but I stand by my comment that if you can't hit the mob it will take forever to get off atonement and it wouldn't be effective to hold hate with atonement alone. If Alobont or anyone else here wants to make a linkshell or has one that wants to use the atonement strategy on a paladin who misses half the time go ahead. Personally for our linkshell I have recommended that our PLDs not do that.
I cannot stand in more favor of this, but you're sounding like you're sounding like you're writing the whole damn strategy off, which is the fault I find. If a PLD doesn't have an Accuracy/Haste/TP Build, he's wasting Atonement's potential.
As with any tank, it is never a black and white case. It's a lot of gear and strategy changes (different characters have different merits/gear) but for this case, I strongly disagree that atonement alone is the end all be all of enmity generation.
It's the single biggest boon we've received since we got the Sentinel upgrade. It's foolish to ignore it just because you haven't seen it used correctly. It's also foolish to think it makes the PLD better if he doesn't build for it appropriately, too (which is the thrust of your post).
So yeah the enmity on the chainsaw doesn't compare the the eztra damage and TP generated from Joyeuse. Only time i'd say Mac+1 would be more useful is perhaps something where you arent meleeing but aren't kiting either, like Khim, or JoL.
I'd argue that Iron Ram Lance would win out for most things if you can't use your shield to mitigate damage (i.e., it's magical); otherwise, yeah, Mac +1. It's still mostly a kiting tool.
Excal is worthless and should never be used outside of farming and even then I'd still it's questionable whether Justice/Joy beats Excal/Joy due to the mad TP gain, Hauteclair is probably best for something where you know you'll have shadows down a lot due to AoEs(Khim for example.Omega with elegy and slow2 attacks about once every 6-8 seconds) otherwise Joy wins.
I couldn't disagree more with this. Excal is not worthless. It's just as cost effective as the other options given the time and effort that goes in to it. Sure, you don't get CE from the "Additional Damage" effect, but the mob still dies incredibly quickly, which is the point. Byakko/Alexander, sure, use something else, but if you have an Excal, it's a thing of beauty. Burtgang is actually the loser sword in this situation. If it could have all three effects open after an Atonement, it might be worthwhile, but having to choose one and getting such horrid returns from it... I'll stick to my Joy for DA rate.
Joy is probably the best all around sword for a PLD that has Atonement other than Burtang. Justice eliminates an ammo slot.
While justice takes an ammo slot, it's still worth having. Especially if you can Joy/Justice. Sword-chucks are awesome for a reason. Edited, Oct 16th 2009 6:06pm by Dracoth