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Oh hey, another question thread. Cerberus Mantle / Sky Gods.Follow

#1 Oct 15 2009 at 8:43 AM Rating: Good
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Phew, managed to avoid a question mark in the title. Too bad I managed to fill this post with 6 of them ._.

Hello again Paladin forums, been a while since I came to you for advice.

I've been doing well, thanks for asking! My Paladin is really starting to beco-

Oh yeah, the questions. Ahem.

Q1.
On what worth would you place this mantle? I've recently found myself sitting at a healthy 1mil and the most beneficial items I can purchase seem to be Cerberus Mantle (800k), Arhats Gi-pachi+1 (900k) or save for PCC (2mil) or Hauby+1 (2.5m).

Now, I don't have Valor Cape and can't see myself obtaining one... ever, so 3 ENM in a slot with currently no enmity is tempting, and will also benefit my ninja - as well as having some healthy DD stats to sidegrade boring old Amemet+1 - and an extra dose of fire resistance thrown in.

But then again, it is only 3enm, and only is a sidegrade to good old Amemet+1. So I don't know. Skip it until later? My friend is telling me that Settler's would be better for idling in anyway when Atonement tanking. Opinions on Settler's cape? Is the -att too much?

Already anticipating the "save for Haub+1". Unfortunately I make gil at such a slow rate, I won't be there for a long time ; ;.

Q2.
Next question, while tanking Sky god's is it fine to go with the standard Atonement build, or will I not have a hope-in-hades of hitting Byakko? And how much HP should I aim to be having, I've never actually tanked or heard anybody talk about tanking these guys since 2005, where Byakko seemed to be the most ridiculously 1-shotting fiend around. Should I be worried?

The hardest thing I've tanked has been Proto-Ultima, and in hindsight that sounds like it should be a lot more difficult than sky god's but I don't really have much idea. I guess I'm just looking for an idea of how difficult they are to tank.

This is my gear by the way that I'm currently looking at for tanking them in:

Joyeuse, Koenig Shield, Lamia Kaman, Tiphia Sting
Wal. Turban, Parade Gorget/Chivalrous Chain, Suppa, Brutal
Haubergeon, Homam, Rajas, Blood Ring
Amemet mantle +1, Swift Belt, Homam, Homam

Thanks for the advice in advance, and sorry for the great big messy, probably uninteresting, questions.
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#2 Oct 15 2009 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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LordFaramir wrote:
Q1.
On what worth would you place this mantle? I've recently found myself sitting at a healthy 1mil and the most beneficial items I can purchase seem to be Cerberus Mantle (800k), Arhats Gi-pachi+1 (900k) or save for PCC (2mil) or Hauby+1 (2.5m).

Now, I don't have Valor Cape and can't see myself obtaining one... ever, so 3 ENM in a slot with currently no enmity is tempting, and will also benefit my ninja - as well as having some healthy DD stats to sidegrade boring old Amemet+1 - and an extra dose of fire resistance thrown in.

But then again, it is only 3enm, and only is a sidegrade to good old Amemet+1. So I don't know. Skip it until later? My friend is telling me that Settler's would be better for idling in anyway when Atonement tanking. Opinions on Settler's cape? Is the -att too much?


Saving for the Haub +1 is a personal decision. It's by far the best idle tp piece for PLD. Everything else is a side grade (at best) or very slightly inferior (at worst). However, the cost for the upgrade makes it one of those "I'm elitist and want to show off purchases" why I got mine... but keep in mind, I tried to hold that elitism to myself only or one of the "it's the last thing I can possibly upgrade" decisions. Cerberus Mantle should rank just a little bit ahead, especially as it benefits two jobs. Now, enmity +3 isn't a huge deal, but it's in a non-blinking position. I personally think Settlers is the better way to go for Atonement spam, but this isn't too shabby. I wouldn't sweat the -attack if you decide to full time it. Or you can make it a macro piece and ignore it entirely.

LordFaramir wrote:
Q2.
Next question, while tanking Sky god's is it fine to go with the standard Atonement build, or will I not have a hope-in-hades of hitting Byakko? And how much HP should I aim to be having, I've never actually tanked or heard anybody talk about tanking these guys since 2005, where Byakko seemed to be the most ridiculously 1-shotting fiend around. Should I be worried?

The hardest thing I've tanked has been Proto-Ultima, and in hindsight that sounds like it should be a lot more difficult than sky god's but I don't really have much idea. I guess I'm just looking for an idea of how difficult they are to tank.

This is my gear by the way that I'm currently looking at for tanking them in:

Joyeuse, Koenig Shield, Lamia Kaman, Tiphia Sting
Wal. Turban, Parade Gorget/Chivalrous Chain, Suppa, Brutal
Haubergeon, Homam, Rajas, Blood Ring
Amemet mantle +1, Swift Belt, Homam, Homam

Thanks for the advice in advance, and sorry for the great big messy, probably uninteresting, questions.


The biggest impact I had on tanking Byakko was going /NIN. Of the five times I tanked Byakko, the ONLY times I died were either because I was /WAR or because the one WHM who was always on top of everything decided he had time to "Raise I" the ******* who unloaded with his SAM 2 hour in the first 4 seconds of the fight while /NIN. I had everything under control after that and the timing looked ok, but, as it sometimes will, Triple-Attack Full crit spam from Byakko dropped me just as the Raise animation started. I'd probably suggest a defensive build and /NIN til you're really comfortable with tanking him before moving into Atonement spam, but I don't see why you couldn't use it. The other gods are much more easily tanked /NIN than Byakko is so I imagine Atonement Spam would work great.
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#3 Oct 15 2009 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
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LordFaramir wrote:
But then again, it is only 3enm, and only is a sidegrade to good old Amemet+1. So I don't know. Skip it until later? My friend is telling me that Settler's would be better for idling in anyway when Atonement tanking. Opinions on Settler's cape? Is the -att too much?


I disagree with Dracoth here. Anecdotal, yes, but -26atk and -2str (vs. Amemet+1) is too hard to overcome. Even with my pretty solid TP build (I need to upgrade to Homam but that will actually make me *lose* some ATK) I still hit for 0s far too occasionally on sky gods. This might change when I get my Moogle helm (10atk, 5acc, 3% haste) for those situations. Also, if you're eating Dorado, ACC becomes less of an issue. I know, ACC is *always* an issue, but still, -26atk and -2str is rough.

Cerberus Mantle... well, if you know you'll never get Valor Cape, then it's a solid investment. But you might want to consider camping Resentment Cape (/hypocrite here^^). The question is partly economic: you can always resell Cerberus once you come within striking distance of your larger goals, like Haub +1. Also notice that Cerberus is very nice for an FR build, which you may need at some point.

Quote:
Q2.
Next question, while tanking Sky god's is it fine to go with the standard Atonement build, or will I not have a hope-in-hades of hitting Byakko? And how much HP should I aim to be having, I've never actually tanked or heard anybody talk about tanking these guys since 2005, where Byakko seemed to be the most ridiculously 1-shotting fiend around. Should I be worried?


HP? Are you a Taru? Do you have merits? Those might play a role, but, not only are you in full Homam, you clearly have a good haste build and are aware that when shadows are up you're not getting hit (seems simple but most PLDs seem totally ignorant of this :P). So yeah, I use my TP gear when shadows are up and macro it out when they're down, like in any other endgame tanking situation. Byakko can be a cheap *******; so can Seiryu. I've gone from 2 shadows and 1400 HP to dead in one unlucky round plus a mis-timed heal. If I'd macro'd in max HP and cure-cheated, perhaps I would've survived with 100 hp... so yeah, depends on your confidence in your healers, as always.

Edited, Oct 15th 2009 12:18pm by soopafeen
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#4 Oct 15 2009 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
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I'm Hume with just two lowly HP merits, so I guess I sit at about 1400.

Don't really have much in terms of HP gear though ; ; I don't even have a cure cheat macro, don't really like the concept of spending MP on "nothing" I guess, but I should consider one.

I guess if Byakko/Seiryu can be that cheap I should perhaps ease into god-killing with high HP build (Carbonara perhaps?) until I get used to it? Well there isn't much 'getting used to' freak accidents I suppose lol. Perhaps I'll just go with my current setup and bring along a dependable co-tank.

Also - any place for a magic def. build in sky? Macro it in before spells perhaps, or is it simply better to focus on keeping shadows up as much as possible? I suppose these are mostly up to personal discretion.
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drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

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#5 Oct 15 2009 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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Keep saving your money, *maybe* for a hauby +1. See how things go, and decide from there if you really hurting from lack of enmity to go with a cerb mantle.

How long/useful a DD setup on byakko can go, depends on your support like any other mob in this game. If you have slow/elegy/para/x2 marches and a few stuns, youre pretty much have that fight wrapped up even w/o another tank. If you dont, you will find yourself with full shield/damage taken gear more often than not. As he can triple att constantly making your shadows not last long enough, or he can -ga you and then triple att followed by a TP claw move. Ya byakko can suck that much. Again if you have the support hes cake, if you dont, well he'll be trouble for sure.

If its your first time with byakko, having another tank swap hate with you will help you.


As far as magic taken/def gear, not really, but I take my FS to suzy b/c stuns might not catch a spell, anytime we arent zerging all of sky.


Best thing I could tell you would be, get advice/opinions(like now) then get experience, and then make a decisions on that experience with the advice/opinions given. Because in the end, what makes you comfortable and your shell is really important, and you seem to be going in the right direction with gear.
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#6 Oct 15 2009 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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LordFaramir wrote:
I don't even have a cure cheat macro, don't really like the concept of spending MP on "nothing" I guess, but I should consider one.


You're not spending MP on "nothing" with a cure swap macro, you're allowing yourself to cap out enmity faster without burning up all of your JAs, thus having them available for moments that you really need them for survival (Or to counter a hate reset).

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#7 Oct 15 2009 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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NCCoda wrote:
You're not spending MP on "nothing" with a cure swap macro, you're allowing yourself to cap out enmity faster without burning up all of your JAs, thus having them available for moments that you really need them for survival (Or to counter a hate reset).


Just to add to this, you're also using all that glorious MP refresh that you have available as a PLD (trait, eq, support) that is otherwise pretty much going to waste. When you understand the beauty that is the "Cure Cheat" macro, you'll wonder how you ever lived without it.

In regards to Soopa's comment: If you're hitting for 0's consistently, I'll agree with his assessment. Having never tested a Cerb Mantle myself, I can't say if it would have caused me to. I hit often enough for more than 0 with my gear that I can't really say either way. However, I'll note that most of us wear Swift Belts that have -attack as well (although it's a paltry amount). If nothing else, the Cerb Mantle is a viable piece for a "min/max" approach with time and gil being factored in. If nothing else, it's a macro piece. (And what do we have that isn't... really.)
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#8 Oct 15 2009 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
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With all the jobs you have listed, I'd consider PCC as your next upgrade. Personally, I like to TP in Parade Gorget since shadows tend to keep it running - but then again I'm very comfortable with my ACC in almost all situations (using Dorado Sushi, Pizza+1, or Carbonara depending on the situation). I think PCC will be more helpful to your other DD jobs than any of the items you listed will be to your PLD.

Cerb mantle is a nice piece that I don't personally have (not worth 800k - I'll wait for Valor Cape). Now I happen to TP in Shadow Mantle as an insurance policy against AOE TP attacks, Triple Attacks, things that avoid shadows, things that strip shadows, etc, but if I didn't have Shadow Mantle, I'd TP in Cerb and macro Boxer's in for shadows, so I'm not saying Cerb Mantle is a bad item. It's just that if I really urgently wanted the enmity macro swap I'd camp Resentment cape, and in your own case, I think Cerb is more of an upgrade specific to your PLD. If that's all you care about you should go that route, but in your case if you are dying for enmity you could just camp Resentment Cape yourself, and macro it in to Flashes, etc while TP'ing in Amemet. That plus 800k in your pocket is probably better than what you get out of owning a Cerb Mantle, especially given that your other DD jobs need PCC still...

On non-Kirin Sky gods, by the way, you have the luxury of starting with 300TP and your SAM(s) do too. I recommend you open with melee hit > hate spike JA's > Flash, then WS for a double-enmity producing Atonement. Meanwhile, you can have a 300TP SAM Sekkanoki and WSTA you for more hate, then with his remaining 200 TP he can Shikikoyo you another 100TP so you can Atonement again, which by now has planted so much hate on you he's free to use the remaining 100TP to SAWS. Basically, what I'm getting at is: I wouldn't worry too much about having or not having an enmity cape just for Sky gods.

Haub+1 is a nicer upgrade than both options (PCC or Cerb) in some ways, but the price reflects that so I think it's better as a final upgrade, as in: "I've already got a PCC and decided to buy/not buy Cerb, so now I'll finally get Haub+1". That said, what it comes down to at that point is your priority list. Eventually you will own both, so this is merely a matter of which comes first, but given you have 7 jobs that swing weapons, I'd think PCC would be a top priority (vs only 3 jobs that benefit from Haub+1). You can not go wrong either way.

Incidentally, I don't know if you have already purchased a solid MDT/MDB build, but if you haven't then I suggest getting that before any of these, by the way.

Settler's cape is terrible outside of PLD/dnc macro swapping (to land steps).

Standard Atonement build on Byakko is the way to go. If you are quick, you can hit your MDT/MDEF build in reponse to aga's and the immediately start putting shadows up so that he hits for minimum damage and you are safe to cure yourself right after. (Or your mages stun, or your bash, etc - all or any of that is good.) I totally would want to have a cotank until you've done him a few times and can decide for yourself how critical that back-up is.

Brutal is the easiest earring to swap out for a Joyuse PLD, btw. If you get ahold of Ethereal, I'd wave /goodbye to that piece. You can consider replacing it now with something like fowling earring (which is really cool when it procs on Suzy), or Merman's Earring (bonus MDT full time is nice for stuff that slips past you), or you can leave it as Brutal. I just mention it because I remember wearing mine without thinking about it as a simple reflex that went with picking up a sword; I might have had other/better options at the time.

Anyway, your gear looks great overall. You are clearly on the road to success and I wish you well.

Good Luck!!

PS: The best "Cure Cheat" macro I ever got was adding a Sorc-Ring BLM to the mage party. Costs me nothing besides not healing him as he's about to land a nuke.

Edited, Oct 15th 2009 4:14pm by NatePrawdzik
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#9 Oct 15 2009 at 4:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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LordFaramir wrote:
I'm Hume with just two lowly HP merits, so I guess I sit at about 1400.


Get more, they'll benefit your lower-level jobs too, and are nice for capped events... though I notice you do have some mage jobs.

Quote:
Don't really have much in terms of HP gear though ; ; I don't even have a cure cheat macro, don't really like the concept of spending MP on "nothing" I guess, but I should consider one.


When you go an entire god fight without losing hate once (hate bouncing to secondary tank not counting), then you'll see why this isn't a waste. One interesting thing to note on the side is that there are times, perhaps, where Chivalry could generate more enmity than Atonement... I need to do some research, but I wonder which scenario generates more enmity

Quote:
I guess if Byakko/Seiryu can be that cheap I should perhaps ease into god-killing with high HP build (Carbonara perhaps?) until I get used to it? Well there isn't much 'getting used to' freak accidents I suppose lol. Perhaps I'll just go with my current setup and bring along a dependable co-tank.


You answered your question basically. I should clarify that I don't use a "high HP" build or anything; I think I have about the same HP as you, it's just that I have 6 more HP merits and no Homam.

Quote:
Also - any place for a magic def. build in sky? Macro it in before spells perhaps, or is it simply better to focus on keeping shadows up as much as possible? I suppose these are mostly up to personal discretion.


Yes, do both of these things. There will be times where spells get off and you might be able to anticipate that. Also, there will be a time when you're tanking Suzaku and someone breaks bind, and macroing in your full MDT/MDB set, including IR Lance, will save your *** as you run away.

Dracoth wrote:
In regards to Soopa's comment: If you're hitting for 0's consistently, I'll agree with his assessment. Having never tested a Cerb Mantle myself, I can't say if it would have caused me to. I hit often enough for more than 0 with my gear that I can't really say either way. However, I'll note that most of us wear Swift Belts that have -attack as well (although it's a paltry amount). If nothing else, the Cerb Mantle is a viable piece for a "min/max" approach with time and gil being factored in. If nothing else, it's a macro piece. (And what do we have that isn't... really.)


Ah, I wasn't saying that the drop in 3 atk from Amemet+1 to Cerberus was worrisome, I was thinking of the massive drop from Amemet+1 to Settler's, based on your saying
Dracoth wrote:
I personally think Settlers is the better way to go for Atonement spam, but this isn't too shabby.


If I had the money for Cerberus at the moment, I'd probably get it and sell my Amemet simply for the inventory and cash to use on other things. I also like it for FR purposes.

Nate wrote:
On non-Kirin Sky gods, by the way, you have the luxury of starting with 300TP and your SAM(s) do too. I recommend you open with melee hit > hate spike JA's > Flash, then WS for a double-enmity producing Atonement. Meanwhile, you can have a 300TP SAM Sekkanoki and WSTA you for more hate, then with his remaining 200 TP he can Shikikoyo you another 100TP so you can Atonement again, which by now has planted so much hate on you he's free to use the remaining 100TP to SAWS. Basically, what I'm getting at is: I wouldn't worry too much about having or not having an enmity cape just for Sky gods.


This mostly makes sense but is kind of confusing in a way... if you're starting with 300% TP you should open with Spirits Within. Then do the rest of what Nate suggests and you'll be golden^^

Nate wrote:
PS: The best "Cure Cheat" macro I ever got was adding a Sorc-Ring BLM to the mage party. Costs me nothing besides not healing him as he's about to land a nuke.


Yeah... but some mages/BRDs will ******* RAGE at you for doing this, I prefer to just CCM myself and help any errant melees out there~

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As a final note, it's incredible to me that anyone would tank something like Byakko /war. Ironically, many people tell me I should because "he always wipes shadows." It's just hilariously illogical really... I think the damage negated from shadow-absorbing 1 Razor Fang probably makes up for all the benefits of loldefender or whatever else. However, I do wish I had /war's Double Attack :/. I guess if you have an overload of WHMs who can rotate cures so as not to rip hate off you, /war could be fun on Byakko ;)
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#10 Oct 15 2009 at 4:30 PM Rating: Good
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Soopa, that makes more sense. I didn't look up Settlers, and you're exactly right. Ignore my previous statement regarding it. For some reason, I forgot I said that and thought you were referring to Cerb Mantle.

As for why I went /WAR... My LS demanded it until I "accidentally" showed up to Byakko and rocked his ***. No deaths from anyone in the shell the first time I did it, which (surprisingly) was a first. Someone ALWAYS died on Byakko. The general "Oh ****" comments were great. By the by, the LS seemed stuck in 2005ish strategies. We still kited Kirin. But, after my "Byakko" incident, we started full tanking it til two of the PLDs went down and THEN we kited with the remaining PLD. (Waste of time, maybe.... but we won, so meh.) That act alone dropped our kill time by thirty minutes... Just wish I had gotten the **** legs to drop.
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#11 Oct 15 2009 at 9:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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LordFaramir wrote:
Q1.
On what worth would you place this mantle? I've recently found myself sitting at a healthy 1mil and the most beneficial items I can purchase seem to be Cerberus Mantle (800k), Arhats Gi-pachi+1 (900k) or save for PCC (2mil) or Hauby+1 (2.5m).

Now, I don't have Valor Cape and can't see myself obtaining one... ever, so 3 ENM in a slot with currently no enmity is tempting, and will also benefit my ninja - as well as having some healthy DD stats to sidegrade boring old Amemet+1 - and an extra dose of fire resistance thrown in.

But then again, it is only 3enm, and only is a sidegrade to good old Amemet+1. So I don't know. Skip it until later? My friend is telling me that Settler's would be better for idling in anyway when Atonement tanking. Opinions on Settler's cape? Is the -att too much?


Personally I'd go with the PCC, every job can use it and from level 33, it's a very versatile piece which I think you'll find once you have one you'll get a lot of use out of it.

LordFaramir wrote:
Next question, while tanking Sky god's is it fine to go with the standard Atonement build, or will I not have a hope-in-hades of hitting Byakko? And how much HP should I aim to be having, I've never actually tanked or heard anybody talk about tanking these guys since 2005, where Byakko seemed to be the most ridiculously 1-shotting fiend around. Should I be worried?

The hardest thing I've tanked has been Proto-Ultima, and in hindsight that sounds like it should be a lot more difficult than sky god's but I don't really have much idea. I guess I'm just looking for an idea of how difficult they are to tank.


Byakko is a special little kitty, he has the ability to make a tank look like a total noob in seconds, my personal best was being KO'd from 1.4k HP with 2 shadows up in 2 seconds flat. It's all part of his charm. As mentioned above your support are the key like most other mobs, a bard makes a huge difference. If you have around 50% haste and you know your whm is really good, Byakko has elegy and you have a couple of stunners then he'll turn into just a puddy cat with a vicious streak. When I've tanked him for the first few times with a new group I use Carbonara and idle in a mixture of acc and shield gear, just for insurance. He will get through your shadows, make no mistake about that and he hits like a truck. Once I'm confident with my group I go with pizza +1 and full atonement build, macroing in shield gear when shadows are down and it's a really fun fight.

Suzaku and Seiryu are easier than Byakko but you'll need a good strategy to deal with their 2 hours, I'd recommend countering both with a rdm/drk chainspell stunning them. You can shadowbind them and get out of range but in my experience someone always breaks it. Generally having several stunners really helps with Suzaku, her Ga spells can really hurt the melee.

As for Genbu... well if you have trouble with him just don't admit it, pretend your Brother was playing your character or something.

Anyhow, Good luck.
#12 Oct 16 2009 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Byakko is a special little kitty, he has the ability to make a tank look like a total noob in seconds, my personal best was being KO'd from 1.4k HP with 2 shadows up in 2 seconds flat.


This ^^. I died about 15 seconds into the first of three runs last night. 1.5HP, full shadows. Diaga > Triple Attack > Claw Cyclone.

We went 3/3 (Co-tank ftw) but yeah, if the other tank would have gotten really bad luck shortly after me (Luckily his HP build helps, by bringing him to 2k... he hit red, which would have killed me) it would have been a wash.

Stupid Kitty.

#13 Oct 22 2009 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Also - any place for a magic def. build in sky? Macro it in before spells perhaps, or is it simply better to focus on keeping shadows up as much as possible? I suppose these are mostly up to personal discretion.
----------------------------



Macro in for Kirin's Stonega IV / Astral flow

Quote:
Byakko is a special little kitty, he has the ability to make a tank look like a total noob in seconds, my personal best was being KO'd from 1.4k HP with 2 shadows up in 2 seconds flat.


Not only have i been on the receiving end of this, but i have seen this happen to SOOOO many plds and nins over the years. Of all the beasties in sky, this one i approach with the most trepidation. He has more luck than any kitty should.
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#14 Oct 22 2009 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
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NatePrawdzik wrote:
PS: The best "Cure Cheat" macro I ever got was adding a Sorc-Ring BLM to the mage party. Costs me nothing besides not healing him as he's about to land a nuke.
As a sorc. ring BLM I'll say that even with a full macro swap to get back down to my casting HP, it's really f*cking annoying when people cure me up to cap. Mostly only because I get caught midcast without people realizing it. If you can figure out a solid, reliable system to only cure people who just finished casting a nuke while still maintaining focus on tanking, fine.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 1:14pm by bsphil
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#15 Oct 22 2009 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
NatePrawdzik wrote:
PS: The best "Cure Cheat" macro I ever got was adding a Sorc-Ring BLM to the mage party. Costs me nothing besides not healing him as he's about to land a nuke.
As a sorc. ring BLM I'll say that even with a full macro swap to get back down to my casting HP, it's really f*cking annoying when people cure me up to cap. Mostly only because I get caught midcast without people realizing it. If you can figure out a solid, reliable system to only cure people who just finished casting a nuke while still maintaining focus on tanking, fine.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 1:14pm by bsphil


This. Just make a cure cheat macro, and toss cures at errant melees or sleepers if you want; don't **** with your BLMs.
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#16 Oct 22 2009 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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IMO PCC is by FAR the best investment. It was already an awsome piece before Lvl sync, now.... its very hard to beat.

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#17 Oct 25 2009 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
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As a sorc. ring BLM I'll say that even with a full macro swap to get back down to my casting HP, it's really f*cking annoying when people cure me up to cap. Mostly only because I get caught midcast without people realizing it. If you can figure out a solid, reliable system to only cure people who just finished casting a nuke while still maintaining focus on tanking, fine.


Ventrilo. :)
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#18 Nov 03 2009 at 6:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sorry for the mini-necro, just letting you know that thanks to a very awesome guy named Siralin I currently have PCC, and Haub+1, but I did have to spend a bit extra for the Haub+1, so no cerby. I'm still thinking about it.

Anyway, as for Sky, well we've done fairly well - but I'm not sure exactly how Genbu is "lol" compared to the other sky gods. Obviously he is incredibly easy because of his move speed, and his 2hour sucks, but his general "DD" style doesn't seem any different from the others. The only one we haven't done yet is Byakko (and the big K) and frankly Seiryu has been by far the easiest.

I mean, I don't think I've ever been hit this hard from just a single crit. As for why I only had 1000hp? Well I had about 1600 total, but that poison is fairly potent, and he had just smashed me up a little earlier with a 600~ Aqua breath and a couple hits during Invincible where his en-water did some nasty amounts. And it's not as if I was slacking on tanking either, I left in the utsu details to see there really wasn't anything extra I could be doing. He was a nasty long Genbu as well, because at 15%ish somebody CFH-ed and we had to completely unclaim him.

I'm not complaining that he's actually hard, he's ridiculously easy, because you don't actually need the tanks. But in terms of actually tanking him I'm not sure why it's so embarrassing to die to him. Unless you expect all Paladins to have 1800HP, or all support to be brilliant? Little confused.
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drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ ***** you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
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#19 Nov 03 2009 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
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>.>;

<.<;

>.>;
#20 Nov 03 2009 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
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LordFaramir wrote:
I mean, I don't think I've ever been hit this hard from just a single crit. As for why I only had 1000hp? Well I had about 1600 total, but that poison is fairly potent, and he had just smashed me up a little earlier with a 600~ Aqua breath and a couple hits during Invincible where his en-water did some nasty amounts. And it's not as if I was slacking on tanking either, I left in the utsu details to see there really wasn't anything extra I could be doing. He was a nasty long Genbu as well, because at 15%ish somebody CFH-ed and we had to completely unclaim him.

I'm not complaining that he's actually hard, he's ridiculously easy, because you don't actually need the tanks. But in terms of actually tanking him I'm not sure why it's so embarrassing to die to him. Unless you expect all Paladins to have 1800HP, or all support to be brilliant? Little confused.


Depends what kinda support you had. Did you have a brd singing double marches(even with TS he doesnt spam it)? elegy+slow+para(if applicable)? Once you have all this, you will see how easy taking him on will make things. By the way his stomp lowers your defense, im not sure if you got hit with it previously but could explain why it hit you that hard. Genbu is lol because of his permagravity affect he has on him, any job w/o movement speed can kite him endlessly. Like all turtles hes annoying if anything, not hard, just annoying, his breaths move go through shadows doing 400-600 damage like any turtle does. Poisonga can be annoying to stun if you arent up for it, causing an easy Headbutt/stomp from him w/o shadows if you arent ready for it.

As far as what could of been done to prevent it, probably a lot of things. Like I said what kinda support did you have? Why was poison potent, your rdm or/and whm should of taken care of that the moment you got hit, with a cure or better yet a regen II/III. Shield bash/sentinel/rampart(poison negate) could have saved you as well provided that they were up. Was there another tank? If so what was she/he doing? I see no other flashes/cures/support coming from that tank(which leads to believe solo tanking)Its very important for the tanking pt to work as a unit together. A tank is only as good as his support. Theres nothing wrong with dying on pld regardless of the mob. Collect info from the fight(what wasnt done/what was done) apply them to the next flight, learn from experience and this will make you grow over time.


How did the other 2 gods go? any deaths from you? grats on being able to try them out on pld ^^
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#21 Nov 03 2009 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
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LordFaramir wrote:
Anyway, as for Sky, well we've done fairly well - but I'm not sure exactly how Genbu is "lol" compared to the other sky gods. Obviously he is incredibly easy because of his move speed, and his 2hour sucks, but his general "DD" style doesn't seem any different from the others. The only one we haven't done yet is Byakko (and the big K) and frankly Seiryu has been by far the easiest.


I actually find Seiryu to be the only occasionally troublesome sky god. Byakko/Suzaku can wipe your shadows with multi-attacks then follow up with a mean WS, but Seiryu's dispelling/silencing moves SUCK far worse for dealing with shadows. As for Genbu... yeah, any of the gods *can* kill you by wiping shadows at an inopportune time, but it happens. I also haven't died to him unless there was no BRD present though, I think.
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#22 Nov 03 2009 at 10:57 AM Rating: Decent
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I recommend building TP to %300 before going in and opening with Spirits Within. It's instant and very good hate. So build your hp at start (Gigant Mantle, Bomb Queen Ring, I use Spaghetti Pescatora and High Breath Mantle) and give it to them at start then jump into your idle gear.


#23 Nov 03 2009 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
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Content-Type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded
Content-Length: 8382

parent_id=1255617789124033605

Interesting double post ^

Actual post below.

Edited, Nov 3rd 2009 7:22pm by LordFaramir
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drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ ***** you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
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#24 Nov 03 2009 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
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hitoseijuro wrote:
LordFaramir wrote:
I mean, I don't think I've ever been hit this hard from just a single crit. As for why I only had 1000hp? Well I had about 1600 total, but that poison is fairly potent, and he had just smashed me up a little earlier with a 600~ Aqua breath and a couple hits during Invincible where his en-water did some nasty amounts. And it's not as if I was slacking on tanking either, I left in the utsu details to see there really wasn't anything extra I could be doing. He was a nasty long Genbu as well, because at 15%ish somebody CFH-ed and we had to completely unclaim him.

I'm not complaining that he's actually hard, he's ridiculously easy, because you don't actually need the tanks. But in terms of actually tanking him I'm not sure why it's so embarrassing to die to him. Unless you expect all Paladins to have 1800HP, or all support to be brilliant? Little confused.


Depends what kinda support you had. Did you have a brd singing double marches(even with TS he doesnt spam it)? elegy+slow+para(if applicable)? Once you have all this, you will see how easy taking him on will make things. By the way his stomp lowers your defense, im not sure if you got hit with it previously but could explain why it hit you that hard. Genbu is lol because of his permagravity affect he has on him, any job w/o movement speed can kite him endlessly. Like all turtles hes annoying if anything, not hard, just annoying, his breaths move go through shadows doing 400-600 damage like any turtle does. Poisonga can be annoying to stun if you arent up for it, causing an easy Headbutt/stomp from him w/o shadows if you arent ready for it.

As far as what could of been done to prevent it, probably a lot of things. Like I said what kinda support did you have? Why was poison potent, your rdm or/and whm should of taken care of that the moment you got hit, with a cure or better yet a regen II/III. Shield bash/sentinel/rampart(poison negate) could have saved you as well provided that they were up. Was there another tank? If so what was she/he doing? I see no other flashes/cures/support coming from that tank(which leads to believe solo tanking)Its very important for the tanking pt to work as a unit together. A tank is only as good as his support. Theres nothing wrong with dying on pld regardless of the mob. Collect info from the fight(what wasnt done/what was done) apply them to the next flight, learn from experience and this will make you grow over time.


How did the other 2 gods go? any deaths from you? grats on being able to try them out on pld ^^
I know plenty about a PLD being about it's support, and in a fledging linkshell yes the support is a bit rocky. Bard was doing good, RDM's were a bit rocky. No WHM whatsoever. Support tank had no chance at getting hate, as they had died during the whole mess of trying to remove the CFH status, and I had been kiting while everybody recovered with constant flashes. Don't think they had the MP to cure either. That was a 16 second timeframe by the way, which is why you didn't see Flash. I know that poisona could of been quicker yes, but I don't know if we even had more than one person with poisona. Every JA was down also.

Because of the CFH it had become a mess, but I suppose the only point I was trying to make is that things can turn bad easily go bad even on Genbu, when straight-tanking him he is pretty much exactly like any other God with perhaps less-powerful TP moves.

Suzaku involved an almost complete wipe when the chainspell stunner failed to chainspell stun, so a couple deaths on him. Things get messy when there is an almost-wipe. Seiryu was well, I was in a sleep-deprived daze and basically flailed my way through those while chatting to somebody on vent so I'm not sure exactly what happened. I think I might of died once in the two battles.

Also Genbu is the first time we've even had a Bard in the linkshell :/ and it was pathetically easy to tank with elegy/slow/march/haste, as you'd expect it to be. I'm not saying I find it hard, it's more like, when things go bad it's not "lol" to die to Genbu. The point of the screenshot is kind of like, in those 16 seconds, I did everything I could and still died.

Anyway yeah who knows. I guess I'm just bitter at the the whole "if you die to Genbu, say your brother was playing or something" mentality. Or the "lol u died to genboob?". Makes me not even want to try and improve my PLD anymore cause I've damned put a lot into it, and done a lot with it, and then to die to Genbu after everybody has said it's lol - yet on the other hand tank Proto-Ultima all the way until Citadel Buster with no probs? (By the way, -24% MDT gear + Shell V + Rampart doesn't work when he still hits you for 1700~ ; ; Totally unfair after I got all that gear. Think he got a total non-resist + light weather bonus. Repeatedly.)

So the point I'm kind of trying to make is tank = support = tank. As you said it's about the tank party. Still makes me down though ._.; And ya I always open with Spirits btw.

/rantystuff
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drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ ***** you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
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#25 Nov 03 2009 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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Man don't stress out about it, everyone's died to something they "shouldn't" have once or twice.

Support is everything, but it takes time to get new players trained and used to being good, not to even count exceptional, support.

The only real problem about all of that that would have gotten me upset is the lack of CSS on Suzaku. People accidentally CFH every once in a blue moon, you can reset the mob, but not CSS'ing when it's your only task for that fight isn't really excusable. (Unless they were overcome with IBS or someone broke into their house and started stealing their Laserdisc collection, I'd understand that)
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#26 Nov 04 2009 at 4:57 AM Rating: Good
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LordFaramir wrote:
I know plenty about a PLD being about it's support, and in a fledging linkshell yes the support is a bit rocky. Bard was doing good, RDM's were a bit rocky. No WHM whatsoever. Support tank had no chance at getting hate, as they had died during the whole mess of trying to remove the CFH status, and I had been kiting while everybody recovered with constant flashes. Don't think they had the MP to cure either. That was a 16 second timeframe by the way, which is why you didn't see Flash. I know that poisona could of been quicker yes, but I don't know if we even had more than one person with poisona. Every JA was down also.

Because of the CFH it had become a mess, but I suppose the only point I was trying to make is that things can turn bad easily go bad even on Genbu, when straight-tanking him he is pretty much exactly like any other God with perhaps less-powerful TP moves.

So your death happened after CFH? just trying to see how the timeline to the fight went @_@

Lordfaramir wrote:
(By the way, -24% MDT gear + Shell V + Rampart doesn't work when he still hits you for 1700~ ; ; Totally unfair after I got all that gear. Think he got a total non-resist + light weather bonus. Repeatedly.)

Thats not correct, there is no such thing as a resist from damage taken gear, its a straight reduction, no resisting involved. Only when you wear element gear is there a resist factor involved, but for shell/MDT it reduces your damage, not raises your resist rate(unless someone has seen/tested different). You should not be taking 1700 damage ever even with lightsday+double weather with gear/shell/rampart/etc. Something wore or gear didnt go in for the macro :/

LordFaramir wrote:
Makes me not even want to try and improve my PLD anymore cause I've damned put a lot into it, and done a lot with it, and then to die to Genbu after everybody has said it's lol

Not the right attitude to have, deaths will happen, get over it, see what the problem was, and try to correct it with your shell. Sometimes sh*t happens, nothing you could do to prevent it.

NCCoda wrote:
Man don't stress out about it, everyone's died to something they "shouldn't" have once or twice.

Support is everything, but it takes time to get new players trained and used to being good, not to even count exceptional, support.

^ and this basically.

-note- I wouldnt try byakko until you guys get genbu/seiryu/suzaku done with a better performance. Hes just nasty the way he was designed, pop him and he comes out with triple attacks right from the bat. I usually pop him as ive seen other ppl pop it and die instantly just from popping him....heh (<3 shield bash)


Byakko: "I am Byakko, Divine Guardian of the West. You mortals are not worthy to feel my fangs, but perhaps you might pro-

*shield bash* Shuddup D:



Edited, Nov 4th 2009 10:59am by hitoseijuro
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#27 Nov 04 2009 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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hitoseijuro wrote:
LordFaramir wrote:
I know plenty about a PLD being about it's support, and in a fledging linkshell yes the support is a bit rocky. Bard was doing good, RDM's were a bit rocky. No WHM whatsoever. Support tank had no chance at getting hate, as they had died during the whole mess of trying to remove the CFH status, and I had been kiting while everybody recovered with constant flashes. Don't think they had the MP to cure either. That was a 16 second timeframe by the way, which is why you didn't see Flash. I know that poisona could of been quicker yes, but I don't know if we even had more than one person with poisona. Every JA was down also.

Because of the CFH it had become a mess, but I suppose the only point I was trying to make is that things can turn bad easily go bad even on Genbu, when straight-tanking him he is pretty much exactly like any other God with perhaps less-powerful TP moves.

So your death happened after CFH? just trying to see how the timeline to the fight went @_@

Lordfaramir wrote:
(By the way, -24% MDT gear + Shell V + Rampart doesn't work when he still hits you for 1700~ ; ; Totally unfair after I got all that gear. Think he got a total non-resist + light weather bonus. Repeatedly.)

Thats not correct, there is no such thing as a resist from damage taken gear, its a straight reduction, no resisting involved. Only when you wear element gear is there a resist factor involved, but for shell/MDT it reduces your damage, not raises your resist rate(unless someone has seen/tested different). You should not be taking 1700 damage ever even with lightsday+double weather with gear/shell/rampart/etc. Something wore or gear didnt go in for the macro
I meant no resist as in no resist, as in I didn't resist. You dont need light resistance gear to resist, it simply increases the chance to resist. I'm not saying the MDT% gear increases my resistance.

I'm suppose that maybe shell V had dropped? Perhaps something happened to it and I replaced it with 3-4. Plus remember he can get a lights weather bonus, plus I think it was lightsday, so extra bonus. I was definetly wearing my 24% gear. It felt like *** to die and fail after all that. We attempted 3 Ultima's and lost each one :/ I'd live through first Citadel usually and then yeah. Last time I went it was just ridiculous the luck he got with his first Citadel.

Anyway, above was rant more at the "Genbu is lol and if you die to him you're a **** paladin" bullsh*t. I'm perfectly comfortable with my own tanking ability. I was just bitter is all.
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drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ ***** you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
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#28 Nov 04 2009 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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LordFaramir wrote:
"Genbu is lol and if you die to him you're a sh*t paladin" bullsh*t.


Frankly, I hate this quote. Replace it with any NM, god, or HNM you want. The only time you're a sh*t paladin is if you fail to learn from what killed you. And, sometimes, that means your support is at fault. Sometimes, it means you are. The only PLDs that bother me are the ones that always blame everyone else for the failed run.
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#29 Nov 04 2009 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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I meant no resist as in no resist, as in I didn't resist. You dont need light resistance gear to resist, it simply increases the chance to resist. I'm not saying the MDT% gear increases my resistance.

Thats what im correcting, resist or no resist, makes no difference to what shell V and your 24% gear are doing for you. You should not be taking 1700 with that on ever. 2088 is Ultima's base damage on CB, so add in what double weather/day grant her.If bonus caps for mobs like it caps for us, its 1.35 of that damage which is 2818(@45%[shellIV/V+24%ingear] you're still taking less than 1600, toss in rampart and you can how 1700 is not likely w/o a buff wearing).Anyhow for that, see if you can get some Iron Ram gear, to reduce even more damage you are taking from that. It helps with mdt ^^


Dracoth wrote:
Frankly, I hate this quote. Replace it with any NM, god, or HNM you want. The only time you're a sh*t paladin is if you fail to learn from what killed you. And, sometimes, that means your support is at fault. Sometimes, it means you are. The only PLDs that bother me are the ones that always blame everyone else for the failed run.

And this^, NCcoda,Drac, Soopafeen, and myself have all said it, a pld dying happens. All of us have been there. All of us had to learn somewhere/somehow. Experience is what made us better than what we were when we started. Learning/experience/adapting all help mold your pld. See what you did wrong/could of done better, then see what your support could of done better, work it out as a team, get back on the saddle and try it again. You only fail if you quit/give up.
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#30 Nov 04 2009 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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hitoseijuro wrote:
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I meant no resist as in no resist, as in I didn't resist. You dont need light resistance gear to resist, it simply increases the chance to resist. I'm not saying the MDT% gear increases my resistance.

Thats what im correcting, resist or no resist, makes no difference to what shell V and your 24% gear are doing for you. You should not be taking 1700 with that on ever. 2088 is Ultima's base damage on CB, so add in what double weather/day grant her.If bonus caps for mobs like it caps for us, its 1.35 of that damage which is 2818(@45%[shellIV/V+24%ingear] you're still taking less than 1600, toss in rampart and you can how 1700 is not likely w/o a buff wearing).Anyhow for that, see if you can get some Iron Ram gear, to reduce even more damage you are taking from that. It helps with mdt ^^
Maybe I didn't have Rampart up or I guess shell V wasn't on. And I may have had only 22% gear on that day, I didn't have my own Merman's so usually borrowed one for that slot =x I know that it was only over my HP by 50-100. Sucked :/

I don't think I'll be doing proto-ultima ever again though, sad I never got to get a victory on him. Oh well, I think 1% twice in a row is close enough x.x; Srsly, such a ******* he is.
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drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ ***** you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
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