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#27 Feb 28 2010 at 9:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Possible adjustments:

Whoever this problematic DD is, if they don't have /nin or /sam, can they go /thf? TA is an adequate and useful means of helping keep hate on you, plus improves the damage you can do with Atonement earlier in the fight. Even if that particular DD can't, do you have another who can? A thf or sam/thf can hugely help the hate balance in that type of situation. For that matter, keep the thf main in the same party as the problem DD and have them constantly Collaborator them, along with TA'ing you, so that said DD doesn't take as much damage.

For other suggestions, what I do probably won't help you as much since you're elvaan. I'm taru, and have 672 MP in standard melee gear while /nin. I tend to spam Cure IV's as much as the mages, which is where a huge chunk of my hate comes from. The other pld in my group has about half that, and I suspect you have a similar amount, which makes cure spamming a bit more difficult. However for zones where you get regular Restoration chests you can do about as well; your MP is there to be spent, so be liberal in its use.

Another suggestion depends on what job the problem DD is, and how strong your other DDs are. My other main is mnk (which absolutely destroys most limbus mobs), and I -always- use /nin; I tend to end up tank with that for at least half of all fights regardless of the tank or other DDs (excepting when one of the other good mnks we have is also there on that job). If you have someone like that who can flat out tank through raw damage, and is good at tanking while doing so, you have a good option for splitting the parties based on who you want to have which buffs.

You mentioned cor, but not brd, so going with just that, set the base party as pld+whm+rdm+cor+DD+DD (the stronger DDs that can best help tank), while seconday party is thf+pDD+smn+other. Improving the buffs for yourself and the tankable DDs keeps hate on you more; thf can Collaborator the problem DD, and their lack of buffs means they both have lower hate levels overall anyway. Smn in the second party for light curing and buffs and such; they'll have to do without Refresh, but Sublimation from /sch, plus Elemental Siphon, should easily keep them going.

In general, in fact, you want whatever DD buffs you can get. We tend to have a brd more than cor in our group, and I'm pretty much on double March 100% of the time. That may actually be another issue for you as /nin; if you have no brd, and no Homam gear yet, you'll have a real hard time with recast timers. If you're spending too much time casting ichi, or not having any shadows at all, then you lose most of the benefit of doing /nin in the first place.




Edited, Mar 5th 2010 4:14am by Kinematics
#28 Mar 28 2010 at 1:25 AM Rating: Decent
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I just realized that I completely forgot Defender exists. I know it's a no-no on the normal mobs, but I'm thinking that popping it on bosses would be the better option, as far as keeping hate goes: theory being that not generating enmity from attacks is more than offset by losing much less CE from being hit. Just wanted to run this past you guys and see if it's a sound idea.

Keep in mind I'm idling in DD gear but using tacos.
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Character: Jarius
Server: Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
#29 Mar 28 2010 at 2:32 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I just realized that I completely forgot Defender exists. I know it's a no-no on the normal mobs, but I'm thinking that popping it on bosses would be the better option, as far as keeping hate goes: theory being that not generating enmity from attacks is more than offset by losing much less CE from being hit. Just wanted to run this past you guys and see if it's a sound idea.

Keep in mind I'm idling in DD gear but using tacos.

Defender does very little. So do your tacos. Sentinel and Reprisal should mean that you have a meaningful damage-mitigation tool going almost all the time, which makes DEF even more trivial than it already was. A shield is a PLD/WAR's primary damage mitigation, and you can use it without ruining your damage output, which is where most of your hate is coming from.

You should be eating meat or pizza (depending on your gear), and when Reprisal or Sentinel is on you should also be Berserking most of the time. If all of your DD's are coming with no regard to damage mitigation (/WAR, or Hasso up always) then the mobs shouldn't be living long enough to meaningfully hurt you regardless, and when you lose hate you actually have a chance to pull it back.

/NIN really outdoes /WAR once you have decent DD gear, though. If Provoke alone was actually getting you meaningful extra time tanking, then your DD gear needs work.

All that said, the idea of even using a tank in a non-U/O Limbus is just silly. Everyone except the MNKs has a perfectly good, DD-based reason to be /NIN or /SAM (or even /THF), so there should be no problems at all with hate bouncing safely from one DD to another, like in a tank-less EXP party. Since they can apparently not wipe every time you lose hate, they clearly know how to handle a mob's attention.
#30 Mar 28 2010 at 3:47 AM Rating: Good
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Caesura wrote:
All that said, the idea of even using a tank in a non-U/O Limbus is just silly. Everyone except the MNKs has a perfectly good, DD-based reason to be /NIN or /SAM (or even /THF), so there should be no problems at all with hate bouncing safely from one DD to another, like in a tank-less EXP party. Since they can apparently not wipe every time you lose hate, they clearly know how to handle a mob's attention.

Basically this^

Its really hard to justify pld in limbus outside of boss runs. And if you do bring a pld, dont expect him to tank long. Limbus has very squishy low evasive mobs(minus birds) which are ideal for heavy hitting DD jobs.

jAriusEightySix wrote:
A lot of the members who come have a lot of RL demands on their time, so attendance is sort of a "Let's see who's here today and roll with it," deal. We usually have anywhere from 5 to 10 people show up, although we're working on getting Sea for more members.

I feel that there is a lack of organisation with this statement. RL is understandable, it is. However unless you decided to do limbus when you feel like it, generally limbus is a planned event your shell does x2 every week *around* the same time/day for the majority of the time.

So with that, there should be no reason why the DDs that are coming to limbus should not have the *appropriate* sub. For my shell I always have a /lsmes of the upcoming events. From attendance I know which members attend limbus a majority of the time. So roughly I know what jobs I have and what jobs I dont have, so I know what zones I can complete for the night. It feels like......to me, they just dont want to be assed out to have to sub a different sub they dont like. Its really a lack of respect for ppl who do their best to organize events :/ Theres never enough thanks for ppl who organize events, more complaints...than anything.

Tbh, you can do most of the zones with 2x DD/nin brd(you dont even need a brd, but helps with no other DD) rdm whm blm. You can clear all apolly zones with that setup minus kings(well you could tech.)I prefer to send 3 blms to clear kings alone while the rest of the group clears another zone >.>;
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SERVER: IFRIT
WHM/BRD: Triangulum
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MNK
SAM
BLM
DRK

#31 Mar 28 2010 at 4:21 AM Rating: Decent
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478 posts
I guess you guys missed the part where my shell is forcing me to come pld/war / people don't have the right subs leveled and never will.

All that you've said has been said already. ^^;

Edit: Yay for posting without thinking through first... anyway, I tried using DD food for pld/war at one point, and my damage taken was unacceptable.

Also, how does sentinel + reprisal mean I'm always having damage mitigated? By my rough estimate there's a good 2 minutes or so (with the haste I have) every 5 minutes where neither can be up. There's no bard in the shell, so I have to make do with just the haste spell and ~16% from equip.

Sorry for coming across as short-tempered; it's late.


Sigh, another edit: I feel I should clarify my position here. When I presented these ideas (pld/nin, no tank at all) to my shell, they hesitantly tried them then shot me down after a couple runs due to mostly placebo issues (You're holding hate for 2 seconds less than you used to!), and now they don't trust me any more when I try to suggest new ideas. So I've been operating under a distinct lack of respect for the past couple months, and this is kind of a sensitive issue now.

No offense to anyone trying to help, but nothing I say or do any more will change the situation, so all I can do is try to cope with the hand that's been dealt. This shell is my home, my family, but they're not going to be brought out of 2005 by my hand alone.

Edited, Mar 28th 2010 4:33am by jAriusEightySix

Edited, Mar 28th 2010 5:04am by jAriusEightySix
____________________________
Character: Jarius
Server: Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
#32 Mar 28 2010 at 8:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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That seriously sucks (._.)

I was pretty much PLD for 95% of my time at limbus, I'd pld/nin and wear my full DD + dual wield swords + eat meat or sushi (didn't have pizza back then), swapping into shield on each floors boss or on floors with difficult targets (such as the gigas).

There were several times when other paladins would tank instead, well mostly when I first started the shell we had another "main" PLD. These other paladins would occasionally sub /war - it was rather awful. As we all know and has been said, /war actually has a tougher time holding hate thanks to being smacked around for disastrous amounts - and if you ***** up on all your defense, you can't pump out enough damage to hold hate anyway. I tried /war I think twice, it was rocky both times. Floors that were easy before became difficult, for me at least.

That's a shame that your LS doesn't like PLD/nin. One suggestion I can give is perhaps have somebody come as nin/war? Then they get their provoke-fix as well as having a tank that isn't going to sponge more MP than any of the DD's would. I went as NIN several times and found it a bit harder to hold hate (Flash is just delicious) but it was okay. The nin could even use Yonin if they're really worried, and you can have a couple DD's come along thf (such as yourself as sam/thf).

Edited, Mar 28th 2010 2:04pm by LordFaramir
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drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ ***** you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
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buttfucking
#33 Mar 28 2010 at 9:25 AM Rating: Good
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Theres not more that we can tell you that you wont already know. Maybe some form of DD/thf can plant hate on you better. Having no marches is going to hurt you as pld/nin, as far as going /war maybe your setup is hurting you. Are you spamming vorpal blades? Whats your TP and WS setup look like? What does your vorpal blades average?

Heres a small list of gear for TP:

Wep: Joytoy, justice, company
shield: IR,Sentinel,koenig,Terror
ammo: +2acc

Head: Turban,askar,homam,Ohat
neck: PCC,fortitude,Chiv chain,shield torque
ear1: Ethereal,supp,assault earring, fowling,buckler
ear2: Brutal
Body: Hauby(+1)
hands: Homam, dusk gloves, Askar
ring1: Rajas
ring2: Toreador,sniper,woodsman,ulthalams, Jelly/Patronus(for when you really need)
back: Cuchalain,foragers, amement+1, Boxers
waist: Swift
Legs: Homam, askar, dusk
Feet: Gallant(+1)

Your setup should look something like this or similar in stats. As you can see since youll be /war it will be a hybrid of Haste/acc/att with shield gear. Using excessive amounts of vit/def gear is useless 90% of the time. The difference is minimal. Maybe you can show us what you use? Give us an idea we could improve your performance a bit more ;)
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WHM/BRD: Triangulum
PLD
MNK
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BLM
DRK

#34 Mar 28 2010 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, I'm always changing my idle set from limbus to limbus to experiment, but let me give you a general idea. This is my gear with tacos; it's a little heavier on the acc than with DD food, but it's been a long time since I've used DD food.

Joyeuse
Koenig
*
Smart Grenade (would use tiphia, but I don't like the -hp)

Turban (thinking of replacing with Ohat depending on next parse)
Shield Torque
Brutal
Fowling
NQ Hauby
Dusk gloves
Ulthalam's
Rajas (would another acc ring be good here?)
NQ Cerberus
Swift or Virtuoso, depending on acc parse
Ryl Kgt Breeches (I know, I know, but I have not Askar or Homam and I can't justify buying Dusk atm)
Gallant +1


And of course I have swaps for haste, spike hate, cure cheat, shield skill, Mdef and WS acc, if I haven't forgotten anything. Now that I think of it I should probably put Jelly and Patronus into my shield skill set. I should also probably reaugment my Blitzer Poleyn to put -PDT on them (I put HP and enmity on them for some reason I can't remember any more).

As far as WSs go, with tacos my Vorpals never seem to break 350 or so, so I usually spike some quick hate and go for Atonement, which nets me at least 450 on first use.

But as for my Vorpal build, it's the same as above except for:

Head: Champion's Galea (with STR+4, WS acc+15, WS damage+2%)
Neck: Chiv Chain
Ear: Thinking of using Aesir Ear Pendant next time instead of Fowling, see how well that works. I keep Brutal on though.
Hands: Fourth Gauntlets
Waist: Virtuoso
Feet: Rutter Sabatons


For Atonement I just wear my spike hate gear.

____________________________
Character: Jarius
Server: Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
#35 Mar 28 2010 at 8:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I tried using DD food for pld/war at one point, and my damage taken was unacceptable. Also, how does sentinel + reprisal mean I'm always having damage mitigated? By my rough estimate there's a good 2 minutes or so (with the haste I have) every 5 minutes where neither can be up. There's no bard in the shell, so I have to make do with just the haste spell and ~16% from equip.

Well, first, the difference in damage taken with DEF food and without simply shouldn't be that large, and every shield block diminishes the difference even more. If you've got no damage mitigation ability up two minutes out of five, that still means you're eating food that only helps you 2/5 of the time; your food is basically wasted for the other three minutes. You would be better eating pizza and popping Defender for two minutes of every five, which would have almost exactly the same effect but not gimp your damage output 3/5 of the time.

But, again, if you're actually taking so much damage that you can see a meaningful difference from eating seafood, then you should be /NIN. You will lose more hate form being hurt than you will gain from Provoke (and I assume you're not even using Berserk). /WAR is giving you a brief hate spike, and in exchange you're taking a ton more damage and lowering your damage output (and thus your overall hate). Provoke is not worth subbing /WAR for if that's all you get from it.
#36 Mar 28 2010 at 10:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Well, first, the difference in damage taken with DEF food and without simply shouldn't be that large, and every shield block diminishes the difference even more. If you've got no damage mitigation ability up two minutes out of five, that still means you're eating food that only helps you 2/5 of the time; your food is basically wasted for the other three minutes. You would be better eating pizza and popping Defender for two minutes of every five, which would have almost exactly the same effect but not gimp your damage output 3/5 of the time.


That's a good tip. Thanks, I'll try that.

Quote:
But, again, if you're actually taking so much damage that you can see a meaningful difference from eating seafood, then you should be /NIN. You will lose more hate form being hurt than you will gain from Provoke (and I assume you're not even using Berserk). /WAR is giving you a brief hate spike, and in exchange you're taking a ton more damage and lowering your damage output (and thus your overall hate). Provoke is not worth subbing /WAR for if that's all you get from it.


I know this very well, so telling me serves no purpose; it's my shell that needs to know, but unfortunately they don't listen to me any more. I've said this a couple times now. All I can do is bow to their whims.

edited for grammar.

Edited, Mar 28th 2010 10:34pm by jAriusEightySix
____________________________
Character: Jarius
Server: Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
#37 Mar 29 2010 at 2:07 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I know this very well, so telling me serves no purpose; it's my shell that needs to know, but unfortunately they don't listen to me any more. I've said this a couple times now. All I can do is bow to their whims.

Fair enough, but you're the one who tried /NIN and couldn't make it work, which resulted in them demanding /WAR.

I doubt your Limbus fights are lasting only a few seconds, or nobody would care if you have a tank at all. That means that the fights last long enough that /NIN should be out-hating /WAR by virtue of you not bleeding out all your hate, because if you're taking enough damage for seafood to make a difference then you're taking enough damage to completely negate the Provoke (which is diminishing by the second as well) very quickly.

So, the question kind of becomes, what were you doing wrong as a /NIN that you held hate worse than a pummeled turtle?

Now, your gear could certainly stand for improvement, but it's hardly terrible. Getting a Justice Sword (a guaranteed drop, and so junk in many shells; asking around will get you one free or cheap if you are persistent and pleasant) and a Suppanomimi (something like an 9% DoT increase, and slightly faster TP gain as well) would make a fair difference. Homam gear (which presumably you'll have soon) will also help. Keep wearing the turban, by the way -- there's no way that stacked on a regular 18% haste it won't beat an Ohat if you're using pizza. Also, keep the Rajas -- you'll do more damage and get TP faster than with a +7 ACC ring.

But, even with the gear you've got, you should be able to quickly set a fairly solid hate bar on each mob right at the start, which won't meaningfully diminish because you're not getting hit and it's almost all from Cumulative Enmity. If you open every fight with Flash, Cure IV (or III if your mp just can't keep up), Vorpal Blade (which does more damage from the extra hit), and then start hacking away with your swords, you'll be past the hate level of a /WAR who just Provoked relatively quickly, and you'll be doing more damage (and taking almost none) to keep the hate line rising to offset somewhat all the hate the other melees are building with their own damage. You've got a multi-attacking sword, so you should have no trouble having tp for the start of every fight. If the fights are too short for that, then they're too short to need a tank.

Stupid question, but as a /NIN were you curing for hate? A Cure IV at the start of a fight is basically a Provoke right there. You should already have a "cure cheat macro" for HNM tanking, and that works just as well here. Ideally, you'll Flash a mob and Cure while it runs towards you, so that you don't lose sword swings for the entire cast time.

Anyway, if you do all that, it's hard to imagine how you wouldn't outperform /WAR as a tank for any fight that lasts more than ten seconds (and any fight shorter than that doesn't need any tank even if the melees are getting punched right in the nose -- one healer should be able to keep up easily.)

Of course, this entire discussion will become pointless once the cap hits 80, since there is absolutely no way that you'd need a tank then, no matter how gimpy and/or old-school your team is.
#38 Mar 29 2010 at 5:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So, the question kind of becomes, what were you doing wrong as a /NIN that you held hate worse than a pummeled turtle?


Maybe it was the fact that I was using a shield. Are you saying I should bring dual swords to Limbus? I do have an organics I can mainhand, but I'm not an expert at keeping shadows up yet / there's no bard / I don't think people slow the mobs, and my shield was helping me a lot with ichi.

I did always have hate back about 10sec into the fights when I was /nin, but the first WS (the DDs like to WS at the start of the fight) would always pull it off me. I think the reason they like /war so much is because the two immediate hate spikes let them WS at the start without pulling hate right away, although of course I still don't keep hate very long after that.

Quote:
Fair enough, but you're the one who tried /NIN and couldn't make it work, which resulted in them demanding /WAR.

I did make it work, at least after the first few seconds of the fight. The issue is that the DDs are stuck in the 2005 mindset where provoke > all and /nin means "lol you have no voke! how can you hold hate??", and all they saw were those first few seconds where I didn't have hate because they WSed too soon. ****, they even complained about hate bouncing too much over the course of the fight when I was /nin. I guess they never noticed that hate bounces just as much with me /war, except it doesn't bounce back onto me.

After only a couple runs with me /nin (I hadn't even gotten used to it yet), the shell leader put it to a vote, and unfortunately there are more DDs than there are of me, so I got told to come /war.

Admittedly, I hadn't figured out the "save TP for a vorpal at start" part yet, so that could be part of the reason.

Quote:
Now, your gear could certainly stand for improvement, but it's hardly terrible. Getting a Justice Sword (a guaranteed drop, and so junk in many shells; asking around will get you one free or cheap if you are persistent and pleasant) and a Suppanomimi (something like an 9% DoT increase, and slightly faster TP gain as well) would make a fair difference. Homam gear (which presumably you'll have soon) will also help. Keep wearing the turban, by the way -- there's no way that stacked on a regular 18% haste it won't beat an Ohat if you're using pizza. Also, keep the Rajas -- you'll do more damage and get TP faster than with a +7 ACC ring.

The gear choices in that post were dependent on me eating tacos; but with pizza I agree with you here. Except for...
Quote:
and a Suppanomimi

I chose Bushinomimi for my sam. My endgame shell (which isn't my Limbus shell) has me come sam to everything, mostly cause I don't have things like homam or ele resist sets yet. Add the fact that I never really got to dual-wield in the past, and I decided Bushi would benefit me more than Suppa.

Quote:
Stupid question, but as a /NIN were you curing for hate?

Of course. :)

It's possible, though, that I was actually curing myself too much, instead of letting my sword swings take care of a lot of hate. A lot of times I feel like I have to be doing something, instead of just standing there swinging.

I'm actually starting to consider telling the shell leaders I'm going to do whatever I want without it being open for debate. It's a social shell and I'm a core member so it's not like they'll kick me, although they might start using other people with pld lvled for all I know. I guess we'll have to see.

Edited, Mar 29th 2010 5:38pm by jAriusEightySix
____________________________
Character: Jarius
Server: Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
#39 Mar 29 2010 at 7:06 PM Rating: Good
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jAriusEightySix wrote:
I'm actually starting to consider telling the shell leaders I'm going to do whatever I want without it being open for debate. It's a social shell and I'm a core member so it's not like they'll kick me, although they might start using other people with pld lvled for all I know. I guess we'll have to see.


If someone else wants to come PLD and play the way the shell wants him to, then you get to come SAM/WAR /NIN or /THF and show them how the DDs can really do it. In limbus, a well-played SAM can tank just as well (if not better in some aspects) than a PLD/NIN and FAR better than a PLD/WAR. Good access to -PDT gear will help a ton, too, for moments where 3rd eye and shadows are down, plenty of access to haste, good strong WS's, etc. You can show them how to properly tank with a good solid DD set on SAM and the best part is, if they say, "Hey, let the PLD tank!" you can simply respond, "I'm just trying to kill the mob... Not my fault he can't keep hate!"

It'd give you the best of both worlds with one small set back. You'd be able to tank like you want and DD like you want, but you wouldn't be on PLD.
#40 Mar 29 2010 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Admittedly, I hadn't figured out the "save TP for a vorpal at start" part yet, so that could be part of the reason.

I'm inclined to think that this is most of your problem. If you start every fight with Flash, and CureIV, weaponskill, and everyone else starts the fight with a weaponskill, then your WS would have to be embarrassingly terrible for you not to still have hate.
Quote:
Maybe it was the fact that I was using a shield. Are you saying I should bring dual swords to Limbus?

You should be getting half your hate from damage. You should definitely be using two swords, especially once you have two multi-attacking swords.
Quote:
I chose Bushinomimi for my sam.

I won't ever fault anyone for choosing gear based on what job they prefer. However, a SAM gets +25 ACC just for being a 2h job, and very often subs a job with an Accuracy Bonus trait, so the 4.5 ACC on a Bushi isn't very exciting for tp, and might literally do nothing if you're eating pizza. A SAM should also be getting 2/3 of its damage output from WS, and the Bushi is exactly the same as an AH STR earring for WS. A Suppa, on the other hand, is a pretty powerful for a PLD/NIN, probably second only to a Hauby. It's absolutely cool if you chose a Bushi because you like SAM better than PLD, but there's also no denying that a Bushi does little for a SAM, and a Suppa does a lot for a PLD.

If you like SAM that much more than PLD, why come PLD at all? Even if somehow no one in the shell is a NIN or PLD, any of the melee DD jobs could be main tank just fine (A full-time Seigan SAM/WAR might actually take less damage than a PLD/WAR), so why are you forced to come as main tank but no-one else is?

But, anyway, if you simply must come PLD/WAR, then build yourself around holding hate mostly through damage, because at 75 damage holds hate in a way that job actions do not (which is why the DDs take hate from you). The beauty of a shield is that it works regardless of how much DEF you have, so stop trying to rely on DEF (which offers little improvement even when relentlessly stacked), and use your shield as your primary defensive measure.
#41 Mar 30 2010 at 12:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I told my shell leader I'm sick of having to come pld/war, and he says he's willing to give pld/nin another "try." I guess we'll have to see how it goes from there.

I'm going to try the dual swords thing, although I get the feeling I should switch back to shield for bosses. Knowing my luck, I just know shadows will be down for a strong TP move eventually.

Depending on how this turns out, I might consider doing DM again for a Suppa, seeing as how I'd actually be dual wielding regularly for once. Pld really is my preferred job, even though my endgame shell has me come sam.
____________________________
Character: Jarius
Server: Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
#42 Mar 30 2010 at 2:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Just a counterpoint - while I can definitely see the value of dual-wielding for raw damage, I have a really hard time giving up a shield even on climbing. Shield block/Reprisal for getting utsu back up, and Shield Bash to stun (especially if a mob goes tearing off after a blm) are just too valuable for me.

On the other hand, I'd go for CC or PCC on neck instead of Shield Torque, and DD feet if you have them instead of Gallant, except for when recasting :Ichi. Also, I'd fulltime Swift. There's very little need for pure acc, and even then pizza is generally recommended if it's even vaguely an issue (Apollyon with the birds is the only main case I'd use it); otherwise, yellow curry buns, or mithkabobs if you want to run cheap. (Caveat: I might be biased, since I use Homam hands/legs/feet + PCC + 2 sword merits to reach perhaps 90% hit rate; without as much accuracy in gear, yeah, just go with the pizza for now.)


Quote:
But, again, if you're actually taking so much damage that you can see a meaningful difference from eating seafood, then you should be /NIN. You will lose more hate form being hurt than you will gain from Provoke (and I assume you're not even using Berserk).


Not strictly true. Provoke is VE, and thus can't be lost from damage taken, just time. CE, on the other hand (damage done or healed, mainly) gets wiped as you take damage, to such an extent that even a fully turtled Defender pld/war will exhaust any CE you could possibly accumulate (even assuming you could accumulate it at a rate comparable with a DD Berserked pld/war). Provoke just helps overload the VE side to make up for the lack of any CE.

Shadows, on the other hand, help preserve the CE you accumulate, and you'll be accumulating more since you'll be focusing more on damage anyway.

#43 Mar 30 2010 at 2:47 AM Rating: Decent
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478 posts
I do end up changing my gear around when I'm /nin: Dusk feet for one, definitely swift fulltime, and I actually use my Parade Gorget too, since my hp is usually above 85%. The extra tick helps with those cure cheats.

I'm going to give dual wielding a try for now, and if I run into any problems I'll just switch back to shield.
____________________________
Character: Jarius
Server: Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
#44 Mar 30 2010 at 5:45 PM Rating: Good
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7,106 posts
Quote:
I'm going to give dual wielding a try for now, and if I run into any problems I'll just switch back to shield.

Two notes here. First, if fights are lasting long enough that you're meaningfully using Atonement, then you are diluting your tp gain by Dual-Wielding only one multi-attacking sword and not getting any improved weaponskills in return. Second, if you're struggling to recast ichi (which makes me think that the fights are lasting for a while, since you should be going nine hits against non-AoE mobs before you could have a recast issue), then use a buckler shield while /NIN. Not having a Suppa also meaningfully diminishes the value of the Dual-Wielding. Basically, until your Dual-Wield gear is better optimized (swordchucks and a suppa being the core elements, there), two swords might not be enough of an improvement to stress about, and you should feel comfortable using a shield instead.

As an aside, you've mentioned issues with ichi, which makes me think that the rest of your group isn't supporting their tank very well. DRK and BLM should be stunning. WHM should be Flashing. The spells are fast to cast, cheap for mp, and make a mob stand there uselessly. You should be having little trouble keeping up shadows against most mobs as long as there are even two regular Stuns.

At any rate, subbing /NIN will get you a ton of extra hate from damage now that you can eat real food and replace your shield gear with offensive stats. Add that to the hate not lost from being hit, and there's way more total enmity there than an always-diminishing Provoke is going to give you.
Quote:
Not strictly true.

Fair enough, but I was working on the assumption that even as a turtle /WAR he'd be doing some damage, and so gaining some CE that he wouldn't keep at all without /NIN.
#45 Apr 03 2010 at 9:42 PM Rating: Decent
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478 posts
Well, got a chance to try out /nin again today, and my shell leader said I was doing a better job than I have in the past as pld/nin.

As for my own judgment, though, I noticed that my vorpals hardly ever seem to break 400 or so with joy/shield in beastmen Temenos. Is that normal, or can I boost them some? I believe my acc is capped for them (haven't tested it, but with buku acc gear plus pizza I would assume it is), so would STR or ATK be better for boosting damage? I know STR is a modifier, but I'm also aware of some multihit WSs that benifit a lot from ATK.

Here's my Vorpal gear. Let me know if there's anything I can improve on.

Joy
Dsteel buckler (when /nin)
*
Smart grenade
Champion's Galea (with STR+4 WS acc +15 WS dmg +2%)
Chiv Chain
Brutal
Aesir Ear Pendant
Hauby (NQ)
Fourth Gauntlets
Ulthalam's
Rajas
Cerb mantle (NQ)
Virtuoso Belt
R.K. Breeches
Rutter Sabatons

I'm planning on getting a Soil Gorget whenever I get off my **** to go farm, but other than that, is there anything that will help me put out higher numbers?

Hopefully I'll remember to parse next Saturday's run so I can give you more concrete numbers.
____________________________
Character: Jarius
Server: Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
#46 Apr 04 2010 at 5:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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2,236 posts
I can't really give you advice on Vorpal. I've been going through my parses, and haven't found any yet where I went pld and used Vorpal extensively. The vast majority of my time as pld in Limbus (at least the runs I have parses for) I've had Atonement, and likewise for the other current main pld.

For our usage patterns, Atonement will tend to average around 400-500, so if you have Vorpal doing similar damage it should be fine. The gear you list is pretty solid all around, and 400 dmg seems a reasonable target, especially since you can get that damage immediately on each fight instead of needing to build hate like with Atonement. Just make sure you have solid accuracy when parsed.

For a more broad view, for me and the other current pld (since we got him to start doing pld/nin), the pld does roughly 1/3 to 1/2 the damage total of the top DDs. Our other pld, when he went /war all the time, did about 1/4 the damage of the top DDs. Some very old parses I have from when I first joined the shell have the pld at the time (not either of the current ones) doing anywhere from 5% to 15% of the top DDs (Spirits Within, Vorpals for under 100, etc).

I would suggest parsing regularly, and aim to reach 50% of your best DD's damage. Note that this is a fluid target. Our thf is more middling, and usually gets stuck in the secondary party anyway (stupid 6 person limit), and the pld (me or the other) can often match his damage. Likewise, the pld can come fairly close to the more mid-range DDs (~75% of one of the drks, for example). The only one you really need to compete with, though, is the best one. Parse to find out who that is (it's not always obvious) and do your best to make sure they don't leave you in the dust.

Things to look for:
80%+ hit rate, preferably 90%+. If you're capping hit rate due to Pizza, change acc gear to more attack-focused gear.
65/35 melee/weaponskill split; indicating that you're using TP promptly, and that you're getting good weaponskill damage
Melee average higher than your base weapon damage (35 for Joyeuse, though a bit more due to fStr). Can be difficult with gear options available unless you get outside attack buffs (eg: Chaos Roll), but try for 38+.
#47 Apr 06 2010 at 1:06 PM Rating: Default
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341 posts
Kinematics wrote:
For a more broad view, for me and the other current pld (since we got him to start doing pld/nin), the pld does roughly 1/3 to 1/2 the damage total of the top DDs.

That's pretty crazy; I wouldn't expect a DD PLD to come close to 50% output of a good DD.

Are the DDs holding back? Or, the PLDs not spending time to cure?

(I'll look up the Proto-Omega numbers later, but I don't do non-Omega runs as PLD, so maybe those are different. IIRC, the parses I had for MMM (NM and exp runs) suggest 1/3 and lower being the norm compared to real DDs. Will check old parses later today for the actual results...)



Edited, Apr 6th 2010 12:16pm by IfritnoItazura
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Itazura of Ifrit
#48 Apr 06 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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IfritnoItazura wrote:
Kinematics wrote:
For a more broad view, for me and the other current pld (since we got him to start doing pld/nin), the pld does roughly 1/3 to 1/2 the damage total of the top DDs.

That's pretty crazy; I wouldn't expect a DD PLD to come close to 50% output of a good DD.

Are the DDs holding back? Or, the PLDs not spending time to cure?


Should be doing more than 50%. I am admittedly too tired of the "DD PLD" (or, as I prefer, "intelligent player playing PLD with shadows up") discussion to math it all out for you... this job really gets you jaded, having to answer "y r u warin that gera on pld bro?" all the time. Half my blist is the result of that type of stuff.

Anyway, yeah, Suppa+merits+decent gear (pre-Homam, not including anything more expensive than 1m gear) you shouldn't be scraping around at 33% of a DD's output.
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Raynael - PLD of Sylph - Retired, June 2010
#49 Apr 06 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Good
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2,236 posts
Quote:
That's pretty crazy; I wouldn't expect a DD PLD to come close to 50% output of a good DD.

Are the DDs holding back? Or, the PLDs not spending time to cure?

(I'll look up the Proto-Omega numbers later, but I don't do non-Omega runs as PLD, so maybe those are different. IIRC, the parses I had for MMM (NM and exp runs) suggest 1/3 and lower being the norm compared to real DDs. Will check old parses later today for the actual results...)


Boss fights are a different story entirely. I play far more defensively on those fights, and often won't engage at all to avoid TP given and Omega's counters. But for climbs, yes it's quite possible.

A recent Apollyon NE run (the first recent parse I found with one of us as pld) summary:

*mnk/nin: 29.32 %, *sam/war: 26.17 %, *drk/sam: 16.46 %, *pld/nin: 13.93 %, *thf/nin: 12.42 %

A little more than half the sam's damage, slightly under half the mnk's. No, they don't really hold back (though some are obviously better than others). It's actually -because- of that that I need to be especially agressive on the DD side, to be able to hold onto hate at all.

And while I sometimes find myself sitting on a full MP pool due to no damage being taken, I still did about 25% of the curing (not including regens) for that run.

#50 Apr 06 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Decent
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996 posts
Kinematics wrote:


A recent Apollyon NE run (the first recent parse I found with one of us as pld) summary:

*mnk/nin: 29.32 %, *sam/war: 26.17 %, *drk/sam: 16.46 %, *pld/nin: 13.93 %, *thf/nin: 12.42 %




My experience is about the same 50% of top tier DD assuming a well geared/merited pld.

An average geared pld will only do 1/3 (or less) of a top tier DD.



____________________________
Arcari wrote:
It's the animation. All Drakesbane does is poke a mob and make lights appear. Ukko's Fury smashes a hole through existence itself to damage an opponent.

#51 Apr 06 2010 at 9:43 PM Rating: Decent
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478 posts
One thing that's confusing me... How are you guys able to turn off party and ally filters in order to parse everyone, and yet not lose track of shadows? Everything's pretty spammity in my runs and I need to cut down on the chat log chatter to keep track of what's going on. Is that just one of those things that comes with experience?

I do have my evasion notices set to a bright color, but I still need the chat toned down to be able to see it.

Edit: To take a wild guess, is it something we're not allowed to talk about here? If so, that's all I need to know.

Edited, Apr 6th 2010 10:02pm by jAriusEightySix
____________________________
Character: Jarius
Server: Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
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