Doesn't have to be any third party tool. I actually have found the few that count shadows to be slightly unreliable, anyway. Nothing like being told that I have 255 shadows remaining.
You get used to the speed. The utsu message looks vastly different enough that I've rarely had a hard time catching it. Another alternative is to have someone else (preferably a DD who doesn't care too much about the chatlog much or a mage job that's not on status removal) parse instead of the tank. This usually works just fine.
Honestly, back when I first found K-parse, I parsed everything I did. You get used to how things fly by - it's more second nature than anything else for me now.
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Limbus food?Follow
Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
Experience, mainly. I tank Limbus with pld/nin, Salvage with mnk/nin, and also have nin at 75. Each has a slightly different style, but the general patterns have been ingrained in me.
For pld, I know that virtually nothing is going to miss (except maybe during Flash if I'm lucky), so I have a general feel for when I'll need shadows based on mob attack speed. If I have Reprisal up then I just go Ni to Ni and ignore things when shadows are down, unless a big TP move is coming. I also generally ignore timing, instead depending on shield blocks to finish the casting. When Reprisal is down I'll be more careful about the casting time, and will cast Ichi as well.
I keep evasion notices in a dark purple, as that's notably different from any of my other chat colors. I don't actively count shadows, per se, but more keep track of them as being in one of various states: full/fresh set, multiple left, one left (this is the least precise state), and of course none.
As for being able to keep track of that during battle spam, there are two reasons. The first, of course, is the color differentiation. The second is that I have a widescreen monitor, and the width of the game is set such that no chat log line wraps around multiple lines. If you have 1024 width or lower, many combat lines will tend to wrap around, doubling the rate at which they fly past. Mine is set at a width of 1280, so doesn't have that problem.
If you need to cut down on battle spam, but still track damage, first thing I would do is turn off misses of other players, and damage taken/damage avoided by other players, leaving only damage done. I do that sometimes when I want to cut down on excess chat data a bit (often when there's lots of party/linkshell chat going as well, which is harder to keep track of), but still want to see damage totals.
Edited, Apr 7th 2010 3:28am by Kinematics
For pld, I know that virtually nothing is going to miss (except maybe during Flash if I'm lucky), so I have a general feel for when I'll need shadows based on mob attack speed. If I have Reprisal up then I just go Ni to Ni and ignore things when shadows are down, unless a big TP move is coming. I also generally ignore timing, instead depending on shield blocks to finish the casting. When Reprisal is down I'll be more careful about the casting time, and will cast Ichi as well.
I keep evasion notices in a dark purple, as that's notably different from any of my other chat colors. I don't actively count shadows, per se, but more keep track of them as being in one of various states: full/fresh set, multiple left, one left (this is the least precise state), and of course none.
As for being able to keep track of that during battle spam, there are two reasons. The first, of course, is the color differentiation. The second is that I have a widescreen monitor, and the width of the game is set such that no chat log line wraps around multiple lines. If you have 1024 width or lower, many combat lines will tend to wrap around, doubling the rate at which they fly past. Mine is set at a width of 1280, so doesn't have that problem.
If you need to cut down on battle spam, but still track damage, first thing I would do is turn off misses of other players, and damage taken/damage avoided by other players, leaving only damage done. I do that sometimes when I want to cut down on excess chat data a bit (often when there's lots of party/linkshell chat going as well, which is harder to keep track of), but still want to see damage totals.
Edited, Apr 7th 2010 3:28am by Kinematics
So I checked my MMM parses, and it turned out I really did ~50% (usually a bit more) of our top DDs. ._.
It sure didn't feel like that at the time, since the DDs rarely late me tank all that much except the rabbit NM (Sparky SAM). Even on that, though the SAM/NIN usually ends up tanking anyway by the end--and he holds back a lot.
Maybe I should ask if I can bring my PLD to non-Omega runs as well; would be interesting to compete with the NIN tank head-to-head. heheh.
It sure didn't feel like that at the time, since the DDs rarely late me tank all that much except the rabbit NM (Sparky SAM). Even on that, though the SAM/NIN usually ends up tanking anyway by the end--and he holds back a lot.
Maybe I should ask if I can bring my PLD to non-Omega runs as well; would be interesting to compete with the NIN tank head-to-head. heheh.
Itazura of Ifrit
Quote:
One thing that's confusing me... How are you guys able to turn off party and ally filters in order to parse everyone, and yet not lose track of shadows? Everything's pretty spammity in my runs and I need to cut down on the chat log chatter to keep track of what's going on. Is that just one of those things that comes with experience?
This isn't really what you're supposed to do, but I'm assuming the thought process of most PLD/NINs out there is "if the mob swings at you, subtract one shadow" because, in all likelihood, you didn't evade.
I personally count the "Shadow used" messages which I'm used to reading at breakneck speeds... it's an issue of getting comfortable with doing so, but counting the number of attacks against you works, too. The only trick is remembering (and figuring out at what percent) to cancel shadows at the right time so you actually get Ichi up over Ni. The more comfortable you get at it, the more filters you can keep on (so you can keep track of accuracy as well as damage, for instance).
One big rule about parsers, though: the goal is not to WIN a parse. Parses should be used to better your OWN performance, not to compare yourself to others. It's fine to talk relatives (DD PLD being able to do 50% of a top-tier DD, for instance), but the different DDs really shouldn't be comparing themselves to each other. When I parsed my parties, it was always a fun factor and a personal improvement issue rather than "Let's see who wins" issue.
One big rule about parsers, though: the goal is not to WIN a parse. Parses should be used to better your OWN performance, not to compare yourself to others. It's fine to talk relatives (DD PLD being able to do 50% of a top-tier DD, for instance), but the different DDs really shouldn't be comparing themselves to each other. When I parsed my parties, it was always a fun factor and a personal improvement issue rather than "Let's see who wins" issue.
Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
I always just filtered everything unnecessary for tanking out and let someone else parse. With bright green evasion messages, it was never a problem counting shadows.
For me, I've always just known exactly how many shadows I had up. Anyone with NIN 75 will be accustomed to parrying or evading often enough for counting mob attacks to be unreliable, and the extra shadow on :ni also makes for more uncertainty between "fresh" and "almost need to recast" shadows.
Not that I'd recommend it for PLD/NIN tanking alone, but taking NIN to 75 and HNM tanking with it will give you very strong shadow-counting abilities, and in general improve your PLD/NIN tanking by a fair margin. A NIN 75 has to be somewhat more afraid of having shadows down (although a casually-attainable -40%pdt set makes it not the giant danger that many think), and will avoid an attack "naturally" with evasion or parrying a lot more, so will develop excellent skills with counting shadows. A NIN HNM tank also holds hate almost entirely through spells, which is excellent practice for a PLD/NIN who might otherwise rely too heavily on Atonement and neglect easy hate from mp.
Of course, if you enjoy tanking, NIN is also a fun way to perform the same role from a somewhat different angle.
I miss NIN/BRD. We really haven't had any innovations in tanking since then.
For me, I've always just known exactly how many shadows I had up. Anyone with NIN 75 will be accustomed to parrying or evading often enough for counting mob attacks to be unreliable, and the extra shadow on :ni also makes for more uncertainty between "fresh" and "almost need to recast" shadows.
Not that I'd recommend it for PLD/NIN tanking alone, but taking NIN to 75 and HNM tanking with it will give you very strong shadow-counting abilities, and in general improve your PLD/NIN tanking by a fair margin. A NIN 75 has to be somewhat more afraid of having shadows down (although a casually-attainable -40%pdt set makes it not the giant danger that many think), and will avoid an attack "naturally" with evasion or parrying a lot more, so will develop excellent skills with counting shadows. A NIN HNM tank also holds hate almost entirely through spells, which is excellent practice for a PLD/NIN who might otherwise rely too heavily on Atonement and neglect easy hate from mp.
Of course, if you enjoy tanking, NIN is also a fun way to perform the same role from a somewhat different angle.
I miss NIN/BRD. We really haven't had any innovations in tanking since then.
jAriusEightySix wrote:
One thing that's confusing me... How are you guys able to turn off party and ally filters in order to parse everyone, and yet not lose track of shadows?
Banh
Spoonless wrote:
Have one of the DD's run the parse.
Most of the shell seems to abhor the use of 3rd party tools, including parsers, so it pretty much has to be me. :(
I'll try unfiltering tomorrow, and see if I can keep up.
Character: Jarius
Server:Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Server:
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
If you turn damage done and taken message into some really hard to see light grey or such, everything else will stand out. Only your parser needs to see the damage numbers anyway, and it doesn't care if it's bright pink or the same color as the background.
Itazura of Ifrit
I have the color for shadow loss/evade/parry set to BRIGHT green, and damage done/taken set to a dull orange, so it's pretty easy after some time using a color scheme for tracking shadows to be second nature.
Furionstormrage of Cerberus - PLD/WAR/RDM/NIN/WHM/DRK
PLD Equipment Guide
There's nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?
Ukonvasara, Hydra Haubert, Ares's Cuirass, Ebody, all thanks to awesome friends!
PLD Equipment Guide
There's nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?
Ukonvasara, Hydra Haubert, Ares's Cuirass, Ebody, all thanks to awesome friends!
Did Limbus again today, Appy NE, and things went pretty smoothly. I had hate most of the time, strangely enough. Turned off filters and after the first few minutes it was pretty easy to keep track of shadows still. I tried to parse, but screwed it up by accidentally leaving it running for a ToAU44 fight afterward, so I don't know yet how I compare.
But I think nin sub is finally growing on my shell leads.
But I think nin sub is finally growing on my shell leads.
Character: Jarius
Server:Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Server:
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Assuming you're using KParser, for any tab that allows you to filter by mob you can select the option to use the Custom Mob Filter. Hit the button to bring up the Mob Filter dialog and select only the mobs of interest (the Limbus mobs, in this case). For what you described, I'd probably select All, then ctrl-click the mobs from the TAU fight that you don't want to include to unselect them. You lose out on any activity that happened between fights (eg: refreshing utsu), but most of the important stuff should be there.
Edited, Apr 11th 2010 5:29am by Kinematics
Edited, Apr 11th 2010 5:29am by Kinematics
I did what you said, Kinematics, and... something can't be right here. Kparser says our blu (who also happens to be my roommate) came in first this run at 17.69 damage %, and I was sitting at... 13.34%? Meaning I was doing 75.4% of his damage? There's no way that can be right. Granted our sam, who I would assume is normally our damage leader, wasn't here tonight, but still, yeesh.
I also found out my vorpals were better than I initially thought: They averaged 432 dmg this run. My hit rate was a paltry 83.2%, but that's probably because of those stupid birds.
That 75.4% is very surprising. I'm going to label this inconclusive until my next run.
I also found out my vorpals were better than I initially thought: They averaged 432 dmg this run. My hit rate was a paltry 83.2%, but that's probably because of those stupid birds.
That 75.4% is very surprising. I'm going to label this inconclusive until my next run.
Character: Jarius
Server:Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Server:
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
If you were eating food and the BLU wasn't. Thats not all that uncommon.
I almost beat our MNK the other night (N-Temenos) because I was eating Food and they wernt. (Not the best gear/player though)
It's amazing the amound of difference food makes, even Cheap food.
I almost beat our MNK the other night (N-Temenos) because I was eating Food and they wernt. (Not the best gear/player though)
It's amazing the amound of difference food makes, even Cheap food.
Equivocator: 75 PLD.
99.4 Fishing, 100+3 Woodworking.
60 Alchemy, 60 Smithing, 60 Clothcraft, 60 Cooking, 60 LeatherCraft, 60 Bonecraft, 60 Gold.
Lu Shangs Rod: O
Beast Masters Unite. (Duo Camps)
99.4 Fishing, 100+3 Woodworking.
60 Alchemy, 60 Smithing, 60 Clothcraft, 60 Cooking, 60 LeatherCraft, 60 Bonecraft, 60 Gold.
Lu Shangs Rod: O
Beast Masters Unite. (Duo Camps)
Limbus again today. Temenos elementals, so no real challenge tanking-wise and the parse numbers were skewed (89% of the top DD's damage FTW). None of our usual leaders were here today but we pulled off a flawless win with 6 people, no real leader, only a rdm for heals, and only a blu for sleeping the second dark ele at the end, so we ended up pretty pleased with ourselves, even if it wasn't exactly a major accomplishment.
Anyway, will report back when something more interesting happens.
Oh, I did notice that when filters are off, shadows are much harder to count when the mob has no attack animation. Who would have thought.
Anyway, will report back when something more interesting happens.
Oh, I did notice that when filters are off, shadows are much harder to count when the mob has no attack animation. Who would have thought.
Character: Jarius
Server:Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Server:
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Apollyon SE today, with the immunities to various damage types. My parse shows I was only doing 40% of our top DD's damage, but I'd assume that's because by the time I had flashed, cured, and recast ni, the mob was almost dead and I wasn't having many opportunities to use TP. The 74/26 melee/WS split also seems to indicate that as well.
I told my shell leader going in that I wasn't going to be able to hold hate very well on this run, and that's about how it turned out, although we managed. The MNK actually died on the last floor due to something that happened too fast for me to make out, and I had an embarrassing death on the skele floor due to forgetting to put shadows up before a pull and getting hit with thunder IV, but other than that there were no real problems.
And I also have a quick question: Which is more beneficial for Vorpal once acc is capped, stacking STR or ATK? I've heard that for some WSs like Penta Thrust, ATK ends up doing more. What's best for Vorpal?
I told my shell leader going in that I wasn't going to be able to hold hate very well on this run, and that's about how it turned out, although we managed. The MNK actually died on the last floor due to something that happened too fast for me to make out, and I had an embarrassing death on the skele floor due to forgetting to put shadows up before a pull and getting hit with thunder IV, but other than that there were no real problems.
And I also have a quick question: Which is more beneficial for Vorpal once acc is capped, stacking STR or ATK? I've heard that for some WSs like Penta Thrust, ATK ends up doing more. What's best for Vorpal?
Character: Jarius
Server:Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Server:
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
A very rough estimate would be about 17 attack (including the +2 from the str itself) being equal to 4 str for Vorpal for Limbus-level mobs, assuming you're eating attack food. For higher level mobs that may drop to the 12-14 attack range to match 4 str. So in general, high str items will likely tend to win out.
And yes, the immunities run also has the mobs relatively weak to other damage types. I think I hit a 2500 dmg Dragon Kick on the crabs floor on mnk after saving up TP on the slimes floor, which is insanely high compared to normal. Doing 40% isn't so bad when DDs are getting that much of a boost and the fights are so short.
Glad to hear things are generally working out for you, though. And yeah, keep an eye out for those tier 4's and ancient magic :)
And yes, the immunities run also has the mobs relatively weak to other damage types. I think I hit a 2500 dmg Dragon Kick on the crabs floor on mnk after saving up TP on the slimes floor, which is insanely high compared to normal. Doing 40% isn't so bad when DDs are getting that much of a boost and the fights are so short.
Glad to hear things are generally working out for you, though. And yeah, keep an eye out for those tier 4's and ancient magic :)
Temenos animals today. Ended up doing 59.7% of our top DD's damage, with an 88.4% acc rate and a 68/32 melee/WS split.
Average Vorpal (discounting slimes) was 383, which I find pretty low, although I don't know how I'd up that any. Maybe my Pallas Bracelets instead of Fourth Gauntlets? Would losing 5 acc and 5 dex hurt too much? I do have a lot more acc in my Vorpal set than in my TP set, so it might not be a bad sacrifice. I might also work on getting some Hecatomb.
Another question: does anyone know why the BLU's Sub-Zero Smash never parses correctly with KParser? It always shows up in the mob list as "Smash. The Enhanced Beetle" or similar. I get the feeling it's skewing the results.
Other than an overzealous MNK who was new to Limbus dying 3-4 times, there's nothing much else to report.
I think I've got the hang of this now, so I'm going to stop posting regular Limbus results unless something more interesting happens. Thanks muchly to everyone who's helped me with advice, ideas, and moral support.
Average Vorpal (discounting slimes) was 383, which I find pretty low, although I don't know how I'd up that any. Maybe my Pallas Bracelets instead of Fourth Gauntlets? Would losing 5 acc and 5 dex hurt too much? I do have a lot more acc in my Vorpal set than in my TP set, so it might not be a bad sacrifice. I might also work on getting some Hecatomb.
Another question: does anyone know why the BLU's Sub-Zero Smash never parses correctly with KParser? It always shows up in the mob list as "Smash. The Enhanced Beetle" or similar. I get the feeling it's skewing the results.
Other than an overzealous MNK who was new to Limbus dying 3-4 times, there's nothing much else to report.
I think I've got the hang of this now, so I'm going to stop posting regular Limbus results unless something more interesting happens. Thanks muchly to everyone who's helped me with advice, ideas, and moral support.
Character: Jarius
Server:Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Server:
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
jAriusEightySix wrote:
Temenos animals today. Ended up doing 59.7% of our top DD's damage, with an 88.4% acc rate and a 68/32 melee/WS split.
If you are hitting ~59.7% of your top DD at 88.4% Accuracy I would say there is a problem with your DDs or your DDs are not what I wound consider heavy DDs (WARs, SAMs). Normally I wound expect more along the lines of 45% of a good mostly AH DD, 33% of a Well Geared DD and 20-25% of a decked out DD. This is assuming the DDs get buffs and know what they are doing.
So my shell leader has proposed something interesting. He wants to try a run tomorrow, either Temenos animals or Temenos beastmen, with me as /war and fully decked out in def/vit/enm, just to see how that compares to /nin with DD gear.
Should be fun, eh? I'll report on how it goes. :D
Edited, May 8th 2010 2:04am by jAriusEightySix
Should be fun, eh? I'll report on how it goes. :D
Edited, May 8th 2010 2:04am by jAriusEightySix
Character: Jarius
Server:Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Server:
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
If /nin is working, why does he want to see you gimp your ability to do anything in limbus? I'm just surprised, is all.
I'd be tempted to tell you to tank your tanking skills and make it look worse than it really is, but I just can't do that and keep my integrity. You'll certainly notice a difference, though. It's very hard for me to go back to /war these days, and even when I do, I shudder thinking I'll be stuck with Vit/Def/Enmity full time. I'd still take your DD set with you and start using it if/when you think you're not tanking any more.
Good luck!
I'd be tempted to tell you to tank your tanking skills and make it look worse than it really is, but I just can't do that and keep my integrity. You'll certainly notice a difference, though. It's very hard for me to go back to /war these days, and even when I do, I shudder thinking I'll be stuck with Vit/Def/Enmity full time. I'd still take your DD set with you and start using it if/when you think you're not tanking any more.
Good luck!
Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
If you catch this before you go:
Hopefully you've had all your filters open? Make sure to keep them open on this run, too.
Then report not only your DD output relative to the previous parse (indicative of speeding up the run) (there are multiple ways to make the comparison; I can help if needed), but also damage taken not only by you, but by everyone (if you're /nin and holding hate better, not only should you take less damage due to shadows, other DDs should take less damage from better hateholding).
Also note how much curing the mages do. If they're spending more time/MP on curing, that's less time spent on things such as enfeebling and hasting (verify % of time people are hasted between runs), and possibly more time resting.
Lots of caveats, of course, but don't use just a single metric to determine how well one does compared to the other. Make sure your shell leader understands -all- the ramifications of the change.
Hopefully you've had all your filters open? Make sure to keep them open on this run, too.
Then report not only your DD output relative to the previous parse (indicative of speeding up the run) (there are multiple ways to make the comparison; I can help if needed), but also damage taken not only by you, but by everyone (if you're /nin and holding hate better, not only should you take less damage due to shadows, other DDs should take less damage from better hateholding).
Also note how much curing the mages do. If they're spending more time/MP on curing, that's less time spent on things such as enfeebling and hasting (verify % of time people are hasted between runs), and possibly more time resting.
Lots of caveats, of course, but don't use just a single metric to determine how well one does compared to the other. Make sure your shell leader understands -all- the ramifications of the change.
Due to a low turnout, we didn't do the experiment today after all. We did Apollyon SW with the Fomors, and the experiment is probably going to be put off until a couple weeks from now, since the shell leader will be absent next week.
Because he's not convinced yet that /war with turtle gear is gimp. XD
He's turning out to be a hard sell.
I'm pretty sure I'm the only one that gets hasted, and even then I have to ask for it every time. Our WHM is a dual box with the SMN puller (who is also BLM for some runs) so I usually have to call his attention to things like that. Which ends up making me look like a princess PLD. ("Haste pls" ... *3 mintues later* "Haste pls")
I did see the RDM hasting the DRG a few times today, though.
As for enfeebling, I don't usually pay attention to it. Looking at today's parse though, I notice that vary rarely is the mob slowed... /facepalm. It happened 9 times in today's run, against 30 mobs total. At least paralyze was cast 20 times.
These realizations are irritating me a little, so I'd better end the post here before I make an *** of myself.
I'll let you guys know how things go with the experiment when it happens.
Dracoth wrote:
If /nin is working, why does he want to see you gimp your ability to do anything in limbus? I'm just surprised, is all.
Because he's not convinced yet that /war with turtle gear is gimp. XD
He's turning out to be a hard sell.
Kinematics wrote:
enfeebling and hasting (verify % of time people are hasted between runs)
I'm pretty sure I'm the only one that gets hasted, and even then I have to ask for it every time. Our WHM is a dual box with the SMN puller (who is also BLM for some runs) so I usually have to call his attention to things like that. Which ends up making me look like a princess PLD. ("Haste pls" ... *3 mintues later* "Haste pls")
I did see the RDM hasting the DRG a few times today, though.
As for enfeebling, I don't usually pay attention to it. Looking at today's parse though, I notice that vary rarely is the mob slowed... /facepalm. It happened 9 times in today's run, against 30 mobs total. At least paralyze was cast 20 times.
These realizations are irritating me a little, so I'd better end the post here before I make an *** of myself.
I'll let you guys know how things go with the experiment when it happens.
Character: Jarius
Server:Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Server:
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
jAriusEightySix wrote:
Due to a low turnout, we didn't do the experiment today after all. We did Apollyon SW with the Fomors, and the experiment is probably going to be put off until a couple weeks from now, since the shell leader will be absent next week.
That's unfortunate. The sooner your leader realizes how much better off you are /NIN, the better.
jAriusEightySix wrote:
Because he's not convinced yet that /war with turtle gear is gimp. XD
He's turning out to be a hard sell.
He's turning out to be a hard sell.
Maybe I got lucky with a few factors when I did my "Oh, sh!t, I'm /NIN!" moment in my shell.
1) I was directly paired with a /WAR and not only held hate longer but kept hate over a few back-to-back SATAs. The shell was very old fashioned - prior to my joining, Kirins were an hour to hour-and-a-half-deal
2) The other PLDs wanted to go with /NIN.
3) The main PLD in the shell was a good friend of mine and was the de facto leader in the shell, anyway.
4) It was the only Byakko where no one died.
The facts weighed in, and everyone instantly realized why /NIN was better. After that, we only had one die-hard PLD who would come /WAR (and he refused to level /NIN.... reminded my of Reij, that way).
jAriusEightySix wrote:
I'm pretty sure I'm the only one that gets hasted, and even then I have to ask for it every time. Our WHM is a dual box with the SMN puller (who is also BLM for some runs) so I usually have to call his attention to things like that. Which ends up making me look like a princess PLD. ("Haste pls" ... *3 mintues later* "Haste pls")
I did see the RDM hasting the DRG a few times today, though.
As for enfeebling, I don't usually pay attention to it. Looking at today's parse though, I notice that vary rarely is the mob slowed... /facepalm. It happened 9 times in today's run, against 30 mobs total. At least paralyze was cast 20 times.
These realizations are irritating me a little, so I'd better end the post here before I make an *** of myself.
I'll let you guys know how things go with the experiment when it happens.
I did see the RDM hasting the DRG a few times today, though.
As for enfeebling, I don't usually pay attention to it. Looking at today's parse though, I notice that vary rarely is the mob slowed... /facepalm. It happened 9 times in today's run, against 30 mobs total. At least paralyze was cast 20 times.
These realizations are irritating me a little, so I'd better end the post here before I make an *** of myself.
I'll let you guys know how things go with the experiment when it happens.
Use statistics like this in your runs, too. Kaeko has the right of it - use every ounce of power you can to show them why /NIN trumps /WAR. Use damage output, length of fights, amount of mp spent on cures, amount of damage taken by other DDs, etc. The more power you have to back up your position, the easier the Sell will be. As it stands, there's a few things that really make me question the leadership's ability to organize and run Limbus. That may sound harsh, but I'd be all over a RDM who wasn't doing his hasting duties. Yeah, it's busy, but there's struggling to win runs and there's breezing through them. You'll never be the later if you're not boosting your groups efficiency.
The enfeebles bother me FAR less than the lack of haste, though. The mobs usually don't live long enough to see the full benefit of Slow.
Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
Dracoth wrote:
That may sound harsh, but I'd be all over a RDM who wasn't doing his hasting duties.
Is haste the RDM's job? The shell's main RDM (who doesn't do Limbus with us, but is influential nonetheless) holds the position that when there's a WHM and RDM in the same group, haste is entirely the WHM's responsibility.
Should I be asking the Limbus RDM for haste instead? I'm pretty sure he'd be more reliable with it than the dual-boxing WHM.
Edit: The shell lead was resistant to me showing him parses at first, but I might have talked him into it. I don't know if he's ever looked at a parse before, and he was under the impression that all it recorded was damage dealt.
I'm more or less aware of how archaic this shell is, but they've been my home for years and I don't want to blow them off when I'm pretty much the only tank they have (there is a SAM who recently lvled PLD, but he's still relatively new to the job, not to mention he wont touch DD gear). I play this game more for the friendships than for the gear, so, for now at least, I'd rather be struggling through Limbus with good friends than breezing through it with people I barely know.
That doesn't mean I'm not going to try to institute changes, though. XD
Edited, May 9th 2010 11:47pm by jAriusEightySix
Character: Jarius
Server:Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Server:
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
jAriusEightySix wrote:
Is haste the RDM's job? The shell's main RDM (who doesn't do Limbus with us, but is influential nonetheless) holds the position that when there's a WHM and RDM in the same group, haste is entirely the WHM's responsibility.
Should I be asking the Limbus RDM for haste instead? I'm pretty sure he'd be more reliable with it than the dual-boxing WHM.
Should I be asking the Limbus RDM for haste instead? I'm pretty sure he'd be more reliable with it than the dual-boxing WHM.
Should have been including the WHM in that. Or the SMN, since Hastega is both as effective as Haste AND will last an extra two minutes if they have their tiers broken. Regardless of who should be doing it, it needs to be done for everyone. It's really not THAT hard to keep a haste cycle going. I've been doing it with my dual-boxed RDM WHILE tanking on PLD and being the first CS-stunner... surely someone only playing RDM can figure it out.
jAriusEightySix wrote:
Edit: The shell lead was resistant to me showing him parses at first, but I might have talked him into it. I don't know if he's ever looked at a parse before, and he was under the impression that all it recorded was damage dealt.
Clearly someone who feels that eyeballing is sufficient. Not that there's much wrong with watching situations and getting first hand experience, but when you're trying to figure out what works best for a) a single person trying to improve their gear or b) a group looking to become more efficient at what they're doing, a parse is invaluable. The best part of it will be that you can say things like, "Look, only one in five mobs was being paralyzed." or "When I went /WAR, the mages had to cure 10000 more damage than when I went /NIN. Surely /NIN speeds things up since we have more mp while we're going!" I'd also suggest pointing out the difference in how long the mobs live while under /WAR and /NIN. Making those statements without a parse is futile.
What a parse is NOT good for (other than kicks and giggles) is to say who a better DD is. While it's fun to top parses (and there are certainly good players who enjoy it), there's far more to an effective alliance than just top-tier DD's.
jAriusEightySix wrote:
I'm more or less aware of how archaic this shell is, but they've been my home for years and I don't want to blow them off when I'm pretty much the only tank they have (there is a SAM who recently lvled PLD, but he's still relatively new to the job, not to mention he wont touch DD gear). I play this game more for the friendships than for the gear, so, for now at least, I'd rather be struggling through Limbus with good friends than breezing through it with people I barely know.
Like I mentioned before, the shell I started doing end game with was very archaic as well. It took time to make everyone realize how much more efficient my method of tanking was over theirs. In fact, I got teased a LOT by the shell when I first joined. I had Hauby +1 but no Surcoat. They thought I was insane. I still did incredibly well at my job and the "Dracoth the DD PLD" became a running joke. It didn't take long before I was the main tank out of the seven PLDs we happened to have. It also helped that of the other PLDs, most of them WANTED to make the shift - they just weren't willing to be the ones who stood up and did it.
Bolded is perhaps the BEST reason to stick with a group of friends, though. I absolutely agree with that. I also don't think fighting over this is necessarily the best use of resources between friends. That's why I've suggested doing what they want to show them how much harder it gets as you go archaic. Kaeko's suggestion of using parses, though, is awesome. Wish I would have thought to add that.
jAriusEightySix wrote:
That doesn't mean I'm not going to try to institute changes, though. XD
Exactly. :)
Again, I'm not trying to sound too harsh, but when someone is deliberately giving up efficiency because they "don't think it feels right" even when facts are presented to them, it make me cringe. If all your PLDs only had /WAR available, I'd feel different. But since YOU, being the main PLD, have the right tools (and now, a growing experience with them), it seems foolish to revert back.
Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
Talked to my WHM about maybe having the RDM handle haste, and the WHM is dead set on me being his responsibility, so he's going to try a few things to keep the haste cycle going.
Also, Kinematics is Kaeko, huh? Nice to know I've been getting help from the very best. ^^
It would be greatly appreciated if you could. The more ammo I have, the better.
Also, Kinematics is Kaeko, huh? Nice to know I've been getting help from the very best. ^^
Kinematics wrote:
Then report not only your DD output relative to the previous parse (indicative of speeding up the run) (there are multiple ways to make the comparison; I can help if needed),
It would be greatly appreciated if you could. The more ammo I have, the better.
Character: Jarius
Server:Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Server:
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
jAriusEightySix wrote:
Kinematics is Kaeko, huh?
No, Kinematics is Kinematics and Kaeko is kaeko, Kine is the one nice enough to always add new stuff to Kparser.
Dracoth wrote:
Kaeko's suggestion of using parses, though, is awesome.
Who was he talking about, then? I'm confused. Haven't seen a Kaeko post here yet, unless I'm completely blind.
Character: Jarius
Server:Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Server:
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Quote:
Who was he talking about, then? I'm confused. Haven't seen a Kaeko post here yet, unless I'm completely blind.
Your guess is as good as mine lol, Kaeko has not posted in this thread.
Maybe I got names mixed up, but I was pretty sure that Kaeko WAS Kinematics. My apologies all around since I've got them mixed up. For some reason, Kanican=Kinematics in my mind, and Kanican is Kaeko. I was referring to Kinematics.
Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
Glad the name thing was figured out :)
jarius: It's easiest for me to step you through points for existing parses that you're comparing. A comprehensive tutorial on its own would be pretty huge, and not something I'm up for. If you can post the parses in a publicly accessible spot (mediafire.com, etc) I could download them and work through them with you (and others may also be able to assist). Alternatively, if you're prefer to email them, send me a PM. If you do upload to a public location, I'd suggest saving the parse with chat stripped out.
jarius: It's easiest for me to step you through points for existing parses that you're comparing. A comprehensive tutorial on its own would be pretty huge, and not something I'm up for. If you can post the parses in a publicly accessible spot (mediafire.com, etc) I could download them and work through them with you (and others may also be able to assist). Alternatively, if you're prefer to email them, send me a PM. If you do upload to a public location, I'd suggest saving the parse with chat stripped out.
Dracoth wrote:
For some reason, Kanican=Kinematics in my mind, and Kanican is Kaeko.
Technically, 'Kanican' was a JP(/NA) endgame-ish LS that Kaeko belonged to, and he named his blog after it to report on its activities in English. Later on (or was that early on?) his blog's focus shifted to exploring the game mechanisms and their interplay with different jobs.
Kinematics wrote:
saving the parse with chat stripped out.
LOL. How long has that option been there?
I've been wanting that feature for a long time, but never noticed it already exists until you mention it. >_<; Took me all of 10 seconds to find, too.
Itazura of Ifrit
Well, last week we did a control parse for the comparison: PLD/NIN in Temenos beastmen. Sent that parse to Kinematics and he helped me analyze it. I assumed we were going to do the PLD/WAR part of the test yesterday, but I guess I assumed wrong. We ended up doing Temenos Central 1 instead.
Apparently my group has never beaten that one before, even in the previous iteration of the Limbus group of which I was not a part. We managed to breeze through it pretty easily this time, though. A couple members are longtime Limbus veterans, and one of them had outside experience with beating this run, so we all listened to him.
I parsed at 67% of the top DD's damage, but those mobs were so evasive that I think Atonement skewed the results except for the pot resisting it entirely. >.>
I'm assuming next week we'll finally do the PLD/WAR parse. It will be in Temenos beastmen, just like the control parse was. Hopefully we get some good solid results.
Edit: Forgot to mention, I talked to the shell lead about starting up Omega runs, and he wants to get it going soon. Any advice about what to expect, what jobs work well, how many people we need, that sort of thing? I read the wiki but it only has basic information on strategy, hardly any on numbers needed. Also, will I be able to solo tank him easily, or should I dual tank with someone?
Thanks for any help.
Edited, May 30th 2010 4:02pm by jAriusEightySix
Apparently my group has never beaten that one before, even in the previous iteration of the Limbus group of which I was not a part. We managed to breeze through it pretty easily this time, though. A couple members are longtime Limbus veterans, and one of them had outside experience with beating this run, so we all listened to him.
I parsed at 67% of the top DD's damage, but those mobs were so evasive that I think Atonement skewed the results except for the pot resisting it entirely. >.>
I'm assuming next week we'll finally do the PLD/WAR parse. It will be in Temenos beastmen, just like the control parse was. Hopefully we get some good solid results.
Edit: Forgot to mention, I talked to the shell lead about starting up Omega runs, and he wants to get it going soon. Any advice about what to expect, what jobs work well, how many people we need, that sort of thing? I read the wiki but it only has basic information on strategy, hardly any on numbers needed. Also, will I be able to solo tank him easily, or should I dual tank with someone?
Thanks for any help.
Edited, May 30th 2010 4:02pm by jAriusEightySix
Character: Jarius
Server:Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Server:
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Central 1 is fun. Have found that it's usually easier to have one person on each mob of a pair that can tank it, and then just keep the HP of the mobs similar til dead, rather than fighting one, sleeping it, fighting the other, sleeping it, going back to the first to get rid of the HP it regenned, etc, til you can -ga them down.
Just be cautious about damage if doing that; when I go as mnk I have to be extremely careful not to kill the pot or skeleton too fast.
Re: Omega:
You definitely want to dual-tank if you're just starting out. Perhaps even a third tank in reserve for when (most likely) one of you die (the third can also handle claiming pods).
That's also one scenario where I'd say you -need- a bard (especially since you have minimal haste gear at present). Managing without one will be rather tricky, and not something I could advise on without being very familiar with the people in your group.
On numbers: For a newer group, you want at least 12 people, though approaching 18 can actually cause more harm than good if most of the extras are DDs (having extra healers that can step in as needed to keep MP good is fine).
Would also recommend at least one regular stunner (rdm/drk for potential chainspell+stun is common) and a couple blms (subbing /nin is actually helpful for keeping them alive vs pods).
Just be cautious about damage if doing that; when I go as mnk I have to be extremely careful not to kill the pot or skeleton too fast.
Re: Omega:
You definitely want to dual-tank if you're just starting out. Perhaps even a third tank in reserve for when (most likely) one of you die (the third can also handle claiming pods).
That's also one scenario where I'd say you -need- a bard (especially since you have minimal haste gear at present). Managing without one will be rather tricky, and not something I could advise on without being very familiar with the people in your group.
On numbers: For a newer group, you want at least 12 people, though approaching 18 can actually cause more harm than good if most of the extras are DDs (having extra healers that can step in as needed to keep MP good is fine).
Would also recommend at least one regular stunner (rdm/drk for potential chainspell+stun is common) and a couple blms (subbing /nin is actually helpful for keeping them alive vs pods).
Quote:
That's also one scenario where I'd say you -need- a bard
Thanks for the tip. In that case, I don't know if we'll be doing it any time soon, unless we can merc one or something.
Kinematics wrote:
(especially since you have minimal haste gear at present)
Sure I don't have Homam pants yet, but I don't know if my haste set can be called minimal. The way I see it I'm only missing 6% of the haste I can get (maybe 8% if you count Velocious Belt): 3% plus 2% from fast cast from Homam pants, plus another 1% from dusk feet instead of Homam feet. My utsu set has walmart turban, loq ear, Nuevo (5 fast cast), dusk gloves, swift belt, dusk feet.
Quote:
You definitely want to dual-tank if you're just starting out.
My BLU roommate who's also in the shell says that someone in his dyna shell tanks omega regularly as BLU/NIN. Would that be a viable option for the second tank? Because I don't think we're going to find another person who can do it who shows up regularly.
Character: Jarius
Server:Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Server:
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
jAriusEightySix wrote:
Quote:
That's also one scenario where I'd say you -need- a bard
Thanks for the tip. In that case, I don't know if we'll be doing it any time soon, unless we can merc one or something.
Even if you have a SOLID haste set, the BRD is a huge boon. You can do without - my shell used to - but, when you do it with one, you'll never want to do it without again.
One warning: be careful of Omega since he can counter. After I got my feet wet, the ONLY times I died were due to counters when I wasn't paying careful enough attention to my shadows.
jAriusEightySix wrote:
Kinematics wrote:
(especially since you have minimal haste gear at present)
Sure I don't have Homam pants yet, but I don't know if my haste set can be called minimal. The way I see it I'm only missing 6% of the haste I can get (maybe 8% if you count Velocious Belt): 3% plus 2% from fast cast from Homam pants, plus another 1% from dusk feet instead of Homam feet. My utsu set has walmart turban, loq ear, Nuevo (5 fast cast), dusk gloves, swift belt, dusk feet.
You've got a solid start, but Marchs provide so much more - you'll feel like you've got too many shadows, sometimes.
jAriusEightySix wrote:
Quote:
You definitely want to dual-tank if you're just starting out.
My BLU roommate who's also in the shell says that someone in his dyna shell tanks omega regularly as BLU/NIN. Would that be a viable option for the second tank? Because I don't think we're going to find another person who can do it who shows up regularly.
BLU can be a good tank IF they know what they're doing. The big points to having a dual-tank is to split hate duties. BLU can do fine, but they have to know how to lay it on and when to stay still and lay off to save MP, even more so than PLD. If he doesn't have much practice at doing it himself, you can use it as an opportunity to build skill - just be warned, you might not be pleased at first with the results. BLU tanking takes a lot of finesse.
Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
Want to add that the Proto-Omega really doesn't have a lot of HP; a bit over 21.5k direct damaged was good for a victory, according to my last parse. If you have a mix of physical and magical damage sources, you can keep chipping it down pretty easily.
So, instead of piling on melee DDs, it's quite reasonable shift jobs around to have two or three tanks for more safety, depending on the size of the group, as Kinematics suggest.
Re: BRD
I wouldn't go as far as saying a BRD is absolutely needed, but Elegy and March and Ballad are darn nice. (March + Ballad seem to work better for me; I'm a curing PLD.)
A work around is to not use Joyeuse; use the Macuahuitl +1, or just don't engage. This way, you won't lose (as many) shadows to counters. Have DD/THFs TA+WS on to the tanks and use HP cure cheats to build enmity.
RDM/DRK for CS Stun is quite nice, but should warn the people not familiar with Proto-Omega that it has a tendency to reset enmity or destroy a PLD's CE during just before that time.
I save my Sentinel and Rampart for this phase, but would still caution PLDs be ready to drop Cure III/IV on the RDM/DRK anyway. Last night, one PLD (me) ate a Colossal Blow just before the CS Stun started, and another massive move got through after stuns and hit the other PLD. The alliance just managed to defeat the critter just as it started smashing our Tarutaru RDM into pulp.
So, instead of piling on melee DDs, it's quite reasonable shift jobs around to have two or three tanks for more safety, depending on the size of the group, as Kinematics suggest.
Re: BRD
I wouldn't go as far as saying a BRD is absolutely needed, but Elegy and March and Ballad are darn nice. (March + Ballad seem to work better for me; I'm a curing PLD.)
A work around is to not use Joyeuse; use the Macuahuitl +1, or just don't engage. This way, you won't lose (as many) shadows to counters. Have DD/THFs TA+WS on to the tanks and use HP cure cheats to build enmity.
Kinematics wrote:
Would also recommend at least one regular stunner (rdm/drk for potential chainspell+stun is common) and a couple blms (subbing /nin is actually helpful for keeping them alive vs pods).
RDM/DRK for CS Stun is quite nice, but should warn the people not familiar with Proto-Omega that it has a tendency to reset enmity or destroy a PLD's CE during just before that time.
I save my Sentinel and Rampart for this phase, but would still caution PLDs be ready to drop Cure III/IV on the RDM/DRK anyway. Last night, one PLD (me) ate a Colossal Blow just before the CS Stun started, and another massive move got through after stuns and hit the other PLD. The alliance just managed to defeat the critter just as it started smashing our Tarutaru RDM into pulp.
Itazura of Ifrit
IfritnoItazura wrote:
A work around is to not use Joyeuse; use the Macuahuitl +1, or just don't engage.
Unless I'm missing something, wouldn't Organics be better? Unless the +4 enmity and +1 atk counteracts the +3 STR, +2% hit rate, and +3% crit rate on Organics. I have both swords, and the Organics was actually a gift from my shell back when it was over a mil, so it's a shame I don't use it more than I do.
Hell, even if it turns out Macua is better, I might use Organics anyway for sentimental reasons.
Edit: forgot to account for the higher DPS on Organics as well.
Edited, Jun 2nd 2010 4:57am by jAriusEightySix
Character: Jarius
Server:Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Server:
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
If you don't engage, the Mac is obviously better.
If you do engage, Organics is the better choice. You'll generate a good amount of enmity through damage that way.
I should note, as well, that the counter rate doesn't seem to be that high. It happens (and when it happens to me, it generally happens enough times in a row that I'm heavily surprised). It's also only caught me unprepared when I relax. I've been able to be the solo tank for 6 minutes straight when waiting for my cotank to get raised and for weakness to wear. It wasn't until he was up and kicking (and I relaxed just a smidge too much) that I went down to a four-round counter fest. (That's four in a row, all of which were on double attack rounds on my part).
If you do engage, Organics is the better choice. You'll generate a good amount of enmity through damage that way.
I should note, as well, that the counter rate doesn't seem to be that high. It happens (and when it happens to me, it generally happens enough times in a row that I'm heavily surprised). It's also only caught me unprepared when I relax. I've been able to be the solo tank for 6 minutes straight when waiting for my cotank to get raised and for weakness to wear. It wasn't until he was up and kicking (and I relaxed just a smidge too much) that I went down to a four-round counter fest. (That's four in a row, all of which were on double attack rounds on my part).
Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
Dracoth wrote:
If you don't engage, the Mac is obviously better.
If you do engage, Organics is the better choice.
If you do engage, Organics is the better choice.
And on that note, Macua + Koenig or Earth Staff for when not engaged? I can see Earth Staff being better when there's a high probability of taking massive damage with shadows down, or through shadows... is Omega that kind of situation?
Character: Jarius
Server:Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Server:
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Eh, even with Joyeuse, March x2, Haste, and 21% in haste gear, I was able to keep my shadows up just fine (while solo tanking). The only thing that caught me was when I relaxed because my co-tank was up. Just caught a few too many counters in a short period of time while not keeping track of my shadows well enough.
In the earth staff vs. koenig shield, I'd rely on the shield. When it blocks, you'll reduce more damage than the 20% on the staff. The days of earth staff tanking are long gone - shield mastery + improved shield mechanics just make it better.
Earth staff DOES work well when kiting, though. Since your back is usually to the mob, I'd rely on an earth staff that always reduced damage as opposed to a shield that won't unless you turn around to catch a hit (and why would you do that while kiting?).
In the earth staff vs. koenig shield, I'd rely on the shield. When it blocks, you'll reduce more damage than the 20% on the staff. The days of earth staff tanking are long gone - shield mastery + improved shield mechanics just make it better.
Earth staff DOES work well when kiting, though. Since your back is usually to the mob, I'd rely on an earth staff that always reduced damage as opposed to a shield that won't unless you turn around to catch a hit (and why would you do that while kiting?).
Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
Well, we still haven't done the PLD/WAR run yet. Not enough people showed up to Limbus last night, so we ended up doing Ark Angel runs for people who needed it instead. Maybe we'll be able to do it next week.
Character: Jarius
Server:Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Server:
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Well this thread's been ignored for a while, but... We finally did the turtle PLD/WAR parse last night. Emailing it to Kinematics as we speak.
The fact that I was 76 and the WAR was 78 probably threw off the results a little, so I hope it's still valid.
My thoughts: I seemed to get hate back after a WS only when I used a 5min ability, and then only sometimes. But since I had more 5min abilities, that ended up being fairly often.
However, the mages seemed much busier this time. I saw both the WHM and RDM at low mp on a couple occasions.
We did have twice as many deaths this time as we did for the PLD/NIN parse (4 this time vs. 2 last time). Someone always pulls hate on the Antican RNG and quickly regrets it.
My shell lead's eyeball assessment was that hate was about the same as it usually was, although my assessment was that I was struggling a lot more than I usually do.
Anyway, We'll see what the parse comparison says.
The fact that I was 76 and the WAR was 78 probably threw off the results a little, so I hope it's still valid.
My thoughts: I seemed to get hate back after a WS only when I used a 5min ability, and then only sometimes. But since I had more 5min abilities, that ended up being fairly often.
However, the mages seemed much busier this time. I saw both the WHM and RDM at low mp on a couple occasions.
We did have twice as many deaths this time as we did for the PLD/NIN parse (4 this time vs. 2 last time). Someone always pulls hate on the Antican RNG and quickly regrets it.
My shell lead's eyeball assessment was that hate was about the same as it usually was, although my assessment was that I was struggling a lot more than I usually do.
Anyway, We'll see what the parse comparison says.
Character: Jarius
Server:Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Server:
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Jarius can post the full analysis I sent him if he wishes. Quick summary of a couple notable points:
/nin was a small bit better at holding hate than /war (~71% vs ~63%), but that doesn't reflect the effort expended to maintain that hate. From his comment above, he had to work a lot harder as /war to maintain that level.
The difference in damage taken was huge, and easily reflected in mage priorities and MP spent on curing (an extra 2k for /war). As /nin, everyone had haste 60%-75% of the time, whereas for /war the DDs only got haste 10%-20% of the time, with Jarius getting a bit more at 40%.
/nin was a small bit better at holding hate than /war (~71% vs ~63%), but that doesn't reflect the effort expended to maintain that hate. From his comment above, he had to work a lot harder as /war to maintain that level.
The difference in damage taken was huge, and easily reflected in mage priorities and MP spent on curing (an extra 2k for /war). As /nin, everyone had haste 60%-75% of the time, whereas for /war the DDs only got haste 10%-20% of the time, with Jarius getting a bit more at 40%.
Kinematics and Jarius wrote:
On 6/27/2010 10:04 PM, Jarius wrote:
Hey, here's the parse for our turtle PLD/WAR run in Temenos beastmen. I'm not sure if it's still valid, seeing as how two people (including myself) were 76, and the WAR was 78.
The parse isn't valid until the Sahagin floor, because like a fool I forgot that ally filters were on. Other than that everything should be accurate.
Thanks again for your help with the comparison.
Difficult to make a full comparison because of the changes, but I'll try.
Issues:
A completely different set of players. The only DD who was the same between runs was the cor.
You didn't specify who else was level 76. No info provided in the Player Information details.
Due to the filtering issue, I'm making the comparison only on the sahagin and later mobs.
Melee:
Caveat: You're higher level now, so the pld/war parse will have a higher relative performance level than the /nin parse.
Your accuracy was 60% compared to 82% in the previous parse.
Your avg melee swing was 36 compared to 42 in the previous parse.
Overall, /nin did 60% better in melee damage.
Weaponskills:
You only performed one Vorpal while /war. It was pretty good damage, but can't be used as indicative of any sort of average.
Your average Atonement was notably lower (439 vs 593), but since you were apparently also using it in places where you would have used Vorpal while /nin (ie: at the start of the fight when you have low hate), that can bring it down, and can't really be used as a pure comparitor.
Overall damage:
Can't truly compare because of not only the level changes, but the different DDs will inherently do different amounts of damage, skewing your own damage opportunity.
That said, you did 7k ws and 9k melee as /war, while you did 6k ws and 15k melee as /nin, doing about 30% more total damage as /nin, even with a 1 level penalty.
Damage taken:
You took far more damage as /war than as /nin. 16974 compared to 8204, so over twice as much damage taken.
Cf previous analysis: "Overall, utsusemi probably reduced the damage you took by about 12k. Since you took 12k damage, that means it probably cut the damage you took in half." [Note that that is in reference to the entire run, not the reduced segment analyzed this time.]
Further, the entire group took far more damage, taking 45k instead of 25k.
Revision: going back and removing the two Astral Flow avatars from the enemies (since they're special cases) reduces total damage taken by the group to 36k; damage you took drops to 15,668. Total damage taken by everyone -except- you rose from 17k to 20k.
Note that while the War was level 78, he actually took less damage than the other DDs, so it's not one player taking a lot of hate and skewing the numbers there.
Total MP spent on curing was 7,235 for /war, compared to 5,290 for /nin.
Vastly more damage was taken from mob TP moves, though that's not a reliable comparison due to the vagaries of the AI. I would expect a fair part to be due to the mobs getting more TP from hitting you, though (you were hit 154 times in melee as /war compared to being hit 63 times as /nin)
Average damage taken per hit was surprisingly similar, though. As war you got hit for 69 per strike, while as /nin you got hit for 75 per strike. Overall you took 5149 melee damage as /nin compared to 11150 as /war.
Allowing for melee hits, evades, parries and shadows, you were swung at up to 181 times as /nin (some shadows absorbed TP moves; not sure which), and 174 times as /war.
Total number of melee swings at everyone else was 74 while you were /nin, 102 while you were /war.
Caveat: You fought 5 more mobs on the /war parse than on the /nin parse.
Caveat 2: You were killing mobs much faster on the /war parse than on the /nin parse, likely largely due to the level increases, which reduces the amount of time the mobs can hit back.
Buffs/Debuffs:
Corsair wasn't in your party in either parse, so no skewing there.
Dia II was basically never used (only once in your /war parse, none in your /nin), so that's a non-factor in comparison.
You only got haste about 40% of the time as /war, but that was better than the rest of the DDs, two of whom got 10% and another got less than 20%.
As /nin you received haste 75% of the time, and the other DDs had it between 60% and 70% of the time. Not needing to spend so much MP on curing clearly freed up the mages to be more free with the Hastes.
Hate:
From previous analysis: "You took 41% of all damage done (slightly under 12k taken). 6.5k damage of all damage done to everyone else (22.7%) was from AOEs. 1237 was from the EES the mnk took. That leaves 9k damage that can be attributable to hate loss (31%)."
As /war, you took 37.5% of all damage done. 10,142 damage of all damage done to everyone else (50.5%) was from AOEs. 1106 was from the EES the drk took. That leaves 8,825 that can be attributable to hate loss (25%).
Based on number of melee swings (see above), you had hate 71% of the time as /nin, 63% of the time as /war.
Summary:
So, you held hate better as /nin than as /war (though the difference isn't huge), whereas the damage taken from losing hate was greater on the /nin parse than the /war parse (at least some of which can be attributed to level increase). Mob TP moves were generally more problematic for the /war parse than the /nin parse, and the amount of MP needed to cure you and the party in general was hugely higher as /war than as /nin. That significantly reduced the performance of the mages (caveat: difference in mages and mage setups could also be a factor).
Hey, here's the parse for our turtle PLD/WAR run in Temenos beastmen. I'm not sure if it's still valid, seeing as how two people (including myself) were 76, and the WAR was 78.
The parse isn't valid until the Sahagin floor, because like a fool I forgot that ally filters were on. Other than that everything should be accurate.
Thanks again for your help with the comparison.
Difficult to make a full comparison because of the changes, but I'll try.
Issues:
A completely different set of players. The only DD who was the same between runs was the cor.
You didn't specify who else was level 76. No info provided in the Player Information details.
Due to the filtering issue, I'm making the comparison only on the sahagin and later mobs.
Melee:
Caveat: You're higher level now, so the pld/war parse will have a higher relative performance level than the /nin parse.
Your accuracy was 60% compared to 82% in the previous parse.
Your avg melee swing was 36 compared to 42 in the previous parse.
Overall, /nin did 60% better in melee damage.
Weaponskills:
You only performed one Vorpal while /war. It was pretty good damage, but can't be used as indicative of any sort of average.
Your average Atonement was notably lower (439 vs 593), but since you were apparently also using it in places where you would have used Vorpal while /nin (ie: at the start of the fight when you have low hate), that can bring it down, and can't really be used as a pure comparitor.
Overall damage:
Can't truly compare because of not only the level changes, but the different DDs will inherently do different amounts of damage, skewing your own damage opportunity.
That said, you did 7k ws and 9k melee as /war, while you did 6k ws and 15k melee as /nin, doing about 30% more total damage as /nin, even with a 1 level penalty.
Damage taken:
You took far more damage as /war than as /nin. 16974 compared to 8204, so over twice as much damage taken.
Cf previous analysis: "Overall, utsusemi probably reduced the damage you took by about 12k. Since you took 12k damage, that means it probably cut the damage you took in half." [Note that that is in reference to the entire run, not the reduced segment analyzed this time.]
Further, the entire group took far more damage, taking 45k instead of 25k.
Revision: going back and removing the two Astral Flow avatars from the enemies (since they're special cases) reduces total damage taken by the group to 36k; damage you took drops to 15,668. Total damage taken by everyone -except- you rose from 17k to 20k.
Note that while the War was level 78, he actually took less damage than the other DDs, so it's not one player taking a lot of hate and skewing the numbers there.
Total MP spent on curing was 7,235 for /war, compared to 5,290 for /nin.
Vastly more damage was taken from mob TP moves, though that's not a reliable comparison due to the vagaries of the AI. I would expect a fair part to be due to the mobs getting more TP from hitting you, though (you were hit 154 times in melee as /war compared to being hit 63 times as /nin)
Average damage taken per hit was surprisingly similar, though. As war you got hit for 69 per strike, while as /nin you got hit for 75 per strike. Overall you took 5149 melee damage as /nin compared to 11150 as /war.
Allowing for melee hits, evades, parries and shadows, you were swung at up to 181 times as /nin (some shadows absorbed TP moves; not sure which), and 174 times as /war.
Total number of melee swings at everyone else was 74 while you were /nin, 102 while you were /war.
Caveat: You fought 5 more mobs on the /war parse than on the /nin parse.
Caveat 2: You were killing mobs much faster on the /war parse than on the /nin parse, likely largely due to the level increases, which reduces the amount of time the mobs can hit back.
Buffs/Debuffs:
Corsair wasn't in your party in either parse, so no skewing there.
Dia II was basically never used (only once in your /war parse, none in your /nin), so that's a non-factor in comparison.
You only got haste about 40% of the time as /war, but that was better than the rest of the DDs, two of whom got 10% and another got less than 20%.
As /nin you received haste 75% of the time, and the other DDs had it between 60% and 70% of the time. Not needing to spend so much MP on curing clearly freed up the mages to be more free with the Hastes.
Hate:
From previous analysis: "You took 41% of all damage done (slightly under 12k taken). 6.5k damage of all damage done to everyone else (22.7%) was from AOEs. 1237 was from the EES the mnk took. That leaves 9k damage that can be attributable to hate loss (31%)."
As /war, you took 37.5% of all damage done. 10,142 damage of all damage done to everyone else (50.5%) was from AOEs. 1106 was from the EES the drk took. That leaves 8,825 that can be attributable to hate loss (25%).
Based on number of melee swings (see above), you had hate 71% of the time as /nin, 63% of the time as /war.
Summary:
So, you held hate better as /nin than as /war (though the difference isn't huge), whereas the damage taken from losing hate was greater on the /nin parse than the /war parse (at least some of which can be attributed to level increase). Mob TP moves were generally more problematic for the /war parse than the /nin parse, and the amount of MP needed to cure you and the party in general was hugely higher as /war than as /nin. That significantly reduced the performance of the mages (caveat: difference in mages and mage setups could also be a factor).
One quick point: Most of the Atonements this run actually happened in the middle of the fight or later, since I didn't reliably have enough TP at the start of fights to get off a Vorpal.
Character: Jarius
Server:Fairy Sylph now =/
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Server:
Race: Elvaan Male
Linkshell: The Crystal Dream
75 PLD/75 SAM/37 WAR/40 NIN/37 DRG/37 DNC/37 THF
Quote:
The fact that I was 76 and the WAR was 78 probably threw off the results a little, so I hope it's still valid.
That should actually throw off the results a fair bit -- two levels is not small. The 9%-ish higher hit rate that the WAR gets is alone a pretty big deal. If you were performing even competently against a WAR two levels higher, then you should be reasonably happy with yourself.
That said, I question whether a level 80 Limbus team has any real use for a tank. Plenty of Limbus groups didn't need a dedicated tank even at 75, and just bounced hate around as in a merit party. At 80, the mobs will be dying very quickly, and everyone's survivability will be greater -- trying to keep hate on a dedicated tank just seems like more effort than it's worth. The time and mp you spend just generating hate could be used to kill the mob a little faster, while DD's just blink away most of the damage. If your team has even a couple of Stunners and a couple of Flashers (and you're one of the latter right there), then most mobs can be reduced to near-uselessness anyway.
Necrobump!
From what I've seen, at Lv.75 on NQ monsters no one could really tank in Limbus if there are a few strong DDs; the so called tanks are really just the first provoke/flash person, to make sure it doesn't go after the healer/puller in the first few seconds of engagement. It's even more so at Lv.80; critters die fast enough I'm thinking of asking for two pullers next time we do NE Apollyon or anything similar. Basically, you don't so much have a tank as an /assist person.
For that purpose, a WAR/NIN works just as well as a NIN/WAR or a PLD/NIN, if not better.
That said, time wise Limbus farming is relatively short each run anyway, and easy enough that excessive optimization really isn't needed--probably spend more time waiting on people to gear/show up than spend in zone. i.e. Bring your PLD anyway, if you happen to be on it and the group is not critically short on healer or something.
* * *
A DD geared PLD isn't much of a drag on the group, though, even if it doesn't quite compare to a super NIN. Here's my last NE Apollyon run:
(The super NIN in my group may have have done even more damage if he had prioritized damage mitigation a bit higher than doing damage on the last floor's NMs--he ate an 1.6k Deadly Hold. lol.)
Damage Summary
Weaponskill Damage
Buffs by Time (Haste)
Curing (Yes, I think PLDs should cure even when pretending to be DDs!)
Edited, Sep 3rd 2010 7:18pm by IfritnoItazura
From what I've seen, at Lv.75 on NQ monsters no one could really tank in Limbus if there are a few strong DDs; the so called tanks are really just the first provoke/flash person, to make sure it doesn't go after the healer/puller in the first few seconds of engagement. It's even more so at Lv.80; critters die fast enough I'm thinking of asking for two pullers next time we do NE Apollyon or anything similar. Basically, you don't so much have a tank as an /assist person.
For that purpose, a WAR/NIN works just as well as a NIN/WAR or a PLD/NIN, if not better.
That said, time wise Limbus farming is relatively short each run anyway, and easy enough that excessive optimization really isn't needed--probably spend more time waiting on people to gear/show up than spend in zone. i.e. Bring your PLD anyway, if you happen to be on it and the group is not critically short on healer or something.
* * *
A DD geared PLD isn't much of a drag on the group, though, even if it doesn't quite compare to a super NIN. Here's my last NE Apollyon run:
(The super NIN in my group may have have done even more damage if he had prioritized damage mitigation a bit higher than doing damage on the last floor's NMs--he ate an 1.6k Deadly Hold. lol.)
Damage Summary
Player Total Dmg Damage % M.Acc % R.Acc % BLM/RDM 43439 12.22 % n/a BLU/??? 36556 10.28 % 94.64 % Itazura PLD/NIN 42242 11.88 % 93.74 % BST/NIN 25211 7.09 % 91.61 % COR/WHM 7425 2.09 % 81.43 % 62.86 % NIN/WAR 58289 16.39 % 93.79 % NIN/WAR 39934 11.23 % 83.87 % SAM/NIN 48885 13.75 % 90.37 %
Weaponskill Damage
Player WSkill Dmg WSkill % WS.Avg BLU/??? 1431 3.91 % 286.20 - Expiacion 1184 82.74 % 296.00 - Savage Blade 247 17.26 % 247.00 Itazura PLD/NIN 12817 30.34 % 492.96 - Vorpal Blade 12817 100.00 % 492.96 BST/NIN 6142 24.36 % 558.36 - Rampage 6142 100.00 % 558.36 COR/WHM 1491 20.08 % 372.75 - Slug Shot 1491 100.00 % 372.75 NIN/WAR 18828 32.30 % 697.33 - Blade: Jin 18828 100.00 % 697.33 NIN/WAR 10710 26.82 % 446.25 - Blade: Jin 10710 100.00 % 446.25 SAM/NIN 28934 59.19 % 602.79 - Tachi: Gekko 26844 92.78 % 624.28 - Tachi: Kasha 627 2.17 % 627.00 - Tachi: Rana 1463 5.06 % 365.75
Buffs by Time (Haste)
BLU/???
Buff % w/Buff
Animating Wail 12.50 %
Itazura PLD/NIN
Buff % w/Buff
Haste 59.13 %
Advancing March 71.83 %
Victory March 75.83 %
BST/NIN
Buff % w/Buff
Haste 60.84 %
COR/WHM
Buff % w/Buff
Haste 30.00 %
NIN/WAR
Buff % w/Buff
Haste 94.21 %
Advancing March 76.97 %
Victory March 83.59 %
NIN/WAR
Buff % w/Buff
Haste 86.19 %
Advancing March 87.65 %
Victory March 86.63 %
SAM/NIN
Buff % w/Buff
Haste 6.88 %
Hasso 74.31 %
Advancing March 83.49 %
Victory March 83.94 %
Curing (Yes, I think PLDs should cure even when pretending to be DDs!)
Player Cured (Sp) Cured (Ab) BLM/RDM 213 0 Itazura PLD/NIN 7447 0 COR/WHM 1601 0 WHM/SMN? 12239 0 RDM/WHM 6801 0 BRD/WHM 3622 0 LuckyLulush 0 626
Edited, Sep 3rd 2010 7:18pm by IfritnoItazura
Itazura of Ifrit
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