Forum Settings
       
1 2 Next »
Reply To Thread

I had my first "Wheres your VIT gear?!" party todayFollow

#52 Oct 23 2009 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,720 posts
Excenmille wrote:
It all depends on the setup.


Totally agree, but I've done it with just a RDM before and been just fine. It's all in choosing targets. VT-IT-, pile on the damage. IT++, no thanks - I'd rather turtle it up a little. I just preferred going down to the VT-IT-'s instead where I could DD without worrying about losing out on Haste. (I was the RDM in this situation, as well; if you're not, make sure your RDM IS ok with the setup.)

Excenmille wrote:
I personally would take a 7k/hr party that gets everyone hasted/in healthy hp/mp full on mages then a 10k/hr party that cuts out enfeebles/haste/and always on the verge of dying.


This is where we disagree. I'd rather be getting 10k/hr if everyone IS staying alive. The "verge of dying", to me, is ok if I'm making 3k/hr MORE than the guys that are more comfortable but getting their levels slower. For me, the thrill of knowing we're surviving but just barely kept me involved. If it had been slower going AND I had no fear of dying, then I got bored. I even fell asleep tanking a party like that...

...Maybe I should have done it more often, since they claim I held hate every mob. Could have been a good way to get sleep AND XP at the same time.

But, as you mentioned, to each their own.

Excenmille wrote:
Also I'm a pro-enfeeble Paladin. I would rather go slow and steady knowing that the mob is properly enfeebled, haste is on myself and the dds and that there virtually wouldn't be any downtime.


You can have this without losing on the XP/hr. In fact, DD PLD REALLY shines if you DO have both a RDM and a WHM. Plenty of enfeebles and the extra damage makes up for not having a DD. I've had both parties (with and without the WHM) and enjoyed both.

Excenmille wrote:
I even like the idea of taking a 10 minute break every hour or so of partying. I'm hardcore but I know when to be considerate to my other party members who may not be.


Great ideals. I worked pretty much under the assumption that everyone went full bore when they were there and we took a break when they weren't. I played with a few other people in my situation - kids at home (old enough to be self-entertained, but young enough to need an adult around). All someone would have to say is "Kid," and our party'd take a quick break. It's because of those breaks, too, that we liked putting everything in that we could to boost the XP while we were active. It worked out great, but I can see it not working for others.

Excenmille wrote:
Hell, how many Black Mages that play today even know how the elemental wheel works on their debuffs like Burn/Rasp/etc? I loved DoTing and enfeebling mobs on mage jobs.


The good ones do.

----

I'm as DD PLD oriented as I am because I grew up at the end of the Vit/Defense era and was one of the first ones to start posting results and trying to push the boundaries of DD PLD. I've played both styles in a lot of situations. The only thing I can't say is that I've played Turtle from 60-75. I've tanked in most camps, ToAU, traditional, WotG. And, in all of my experience, I've just seen DD PLD to come out ahead of turtle PLD. It's why I talk about it the way I do, it's why I started a guide on DD PLD, and it's why I continue to recommend it as heavily as I do.

Am I always right? No. (Check the other thread where I stated Settlers Cape is greater than Amememet Cape, for instance.) And, I'm sure there's situations where turtle is going to win out over DD for some niche... but usually at the expense of XP/hr where a simple change in camps or levels would make all the difference. Thus, I continue to spread the "Good News" about DD PLD in the hopes that others can benefit from the increase in XP/hr, even though I don't actively play the game any more.
____________________________
Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
#53 Oct 25 2009 at 4:05 PM Rating: Default
15 posts
KojiroSoma wrote:
I'm sorry, but both you (OP) and your party were being asses.

This has nothing to do with your smart-ass remarks about how you know how to play PLD because you have 9 completely unrelated level 75's, or how you heard DD PLD was the way to go.

All that is meaningless if you dont know WHY this is the case.

You see, once you can take the damage, you can slowly start to switch in DD pieces for existing Tank pieces (Enmity, HP, Def) on your way to 75. Not saying full out DD, i'm saying Hybrid-Tank for now. That is, if you can take the damage. At level 75, most you are fighting are T's and maybe a VT every now and then. Ofcourse damage taken is going to be low in those cases and switching to a (full) DD configuration is optimal for those spots. There's no arguement there. But that is certainly not the case at level 58.

Look at yourself and the party. You were barely staying alive. More so, you actually died. Draining the party's MP, time and exp. Being able to DD better means absolutely sh*t if you're causing downtime.

One could argue it's the camp, because seriously, at that level the exp there is horrible. But when you're up against IT++, when you know your sword is going to do exactly jack-sh*t against them, you're best off focusing on ENMITY, HP and lastly DEFENSE over stubornly sticking to your DD setup. Or better yet, changing camps, but that wasnt a possibility i suppose.

To take what the last person said and add into it, the only thing worse than people you cant get through to no matter how much you prove them wrong, is people you cant get through to no matter how much they think they're proving you wrong.

Paladin is about tanking. But more importantly, it's about gearing up for the situation at hand. When the situation asks for more enmity and defensive gear, you switch to it. And when the situation gives you the opportunity to do more damage without neglecting your main task or getting your **** kicked, then yes, you can gear up more offensively.

It's not important exactly how much (or little) pDif gets lowered from adding DEF, or how much more enmity you could have generated through damage done in DD gear (certainly not not something existing against IT++, at level 58). If you need to gear up defensively to shave even as little as 20 damage off a hit, or to get those extra points of enmity to keep hate, you do so. Especially so if your party is complaining you're doing a terrible job at what you're doing.

Your main income of hate against IT++ is going to come from A) Provoke, B) Flash and C) Cures. You're not going to be hitting anything, and if you are, those 10 damage hits arent going to give you anywhere near the hate you want to have. PLD can DD, yes, but not at 58 and certainly not against IT++. Level 75 T-VT, Yes. Level 58 IT++, No. On top of all of that you have exactly 0 Enmity gear listed, and i'm fully aware you dont switch anything in either. Even 1 point of enmity is going to boost hate gained from Provoke, Flash and Cures by atleast 1%. Let alone 10 enmity, or 30. That's more enmity generated than you could have gotten from sword hits at that level against those monsters. Were you even eating defensive foods?

If you know something isnt working against your target, dont stubornly keep it up. Especially not when you've been proven it kills you.

Evasion might do sh*t, heck, even extra defense does sh*t if you got enough of it, but enmity works with everything. And against an IT++, you got neither the defense nor the enmity to do your job.




I think I love you. o_O

I was a HP/VIT/EMN Paladin 20-75 when I hit 75, EMN/HASTE/HP I have at least
+34 EMN on my Paladin plus 4/4 Merits of Emnity.

I'll switch out certain peices of gear for a WS, yeah, haste gear when I throw up shadows yada-yada. I wore my Artifact 52-73, have bits of Relic, I use for emnity boosts when I voke or Flash.

PALADIN ACCURACY SUCKS @$$, what's the point of DD gear, if you can't hit a mob? And the fact you couldn't get a cure off was probably due to the lack of MP, if you'd had your Parade Gorget, Sanction, and RDM refresh, that's a 5mp/tick. That can actually save your tail end if all you need is enough MP to get a C3/C4 off. At 58 you should've stll been doing Lessers, getting chains 5~9, or you could've found a lower syncee. Puks aren't until high 59~63, then it's The Subterrean, then Caedarva at 66+.
____________________________
"How do we prove we exist...Maybe we don't exist..." --Vivi FFIX

TURTLE PALADIN FTW!
SUICIDAL DRAGOON FTW!
DD RDM FTW!

#54 Oct 25 2009 at 6:45 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,720 posts
Aviendia wrote:
I was a HP/VIT/EMN Paladin 20-75 when I hit 75, EMN/HASTE/HP I have at least
+34 EMN on my Paladin plus 4/4 Merits of Emnity.


While the style works, it's not the best option for XP. Sorry, it just isn't.

Aviendia wrote:
PALADIN ACCURACY SUCKS @$$, what's the point of DD gear, if you can't hit a mob?


What game are you playing? The only reason a PLD's accuracy sucks is because they're not gearing for it. PLD has an A+ in our weapon of choice. An A+ is the same thing that WARs, SAMs, MNKs, DRGs, DRKs, and almost all the other DD jobs have. The difference between them and us? They gear for DD. They eat food that helps.

Sure, after the two-handed up date, those using two-handed weapons got a huge boost, but it doesn't change the fact that we have as good of a base as they have. PLD also has a fairly good STR rating. Sure, our Dex isn't the best, but it's not horrible.

The reason you think PLD accuracy sucks is because you're not utilizing the A+ the way DD's do.
____________________________
Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
#55 Oct 27 2009 at 6:28 AM Rating: Good
**
779 posts
Hm, ya know, even in my full turtle set I never seem to have a problem with ACC, and I only have 2 Sword merits. But I do eat Dorado Sushi all the time, so that might be it.
____________________________
Dreakon of Bismark
Drk90 Pld90 Cor90
Pirate Tea Party
#56 Oct 27 2009 at 10:06 AM Rating: Default
***
2,620 posts
Nate wrote:
Quote:
...(and an almost-Voke)



GDI for the last time, it's a FULL PROVOKE. F-ck people. You get 5/6 of a 'voke on the activation plus a 0TP insta-use JA that is 1/6 of a 'voke. What do you think 5/6 + 1/6 adds up to? 6/6 is an "almost-Voke"?

then wrote lots and lots of text on PLD/DNC being great


Animated Flourish IS NOT a full voke, its no where near a full voke. I don't understant what you mean about 5/6 on activation then another 1/6 somewhere?

Provoke = 1800VE
Flash = 1280 VE

Wiki wrote:
# Makes a viable replacement for /WAR, however it generates significantly less enmity than Provoke. The strength of the effect depends on the number of finishing moves used.
# Seems to generate as much enmity as Flash.


Kanican recons Animated Flourish produces 1500VE, but from personal experiance, I severely doubt that is the case. Provoke just seems so much more powerful in comparison. In any case, Animated Flourish IS NOT a full provoke.

Also, spending all this TP on steps, samba's and waltz's? means way less Vorpals for you. Zerk and Defender are far from lol. 10% DA is around twice as good as 10ACC, and generally a BRD or COR will provide an ACC buff needed, or pty-ing with an actual DNC would be better.

If you use a step once every 15secs, and a step takes 1SEC to perform (the time most ppl give for JA's) thats 4secs a min your gaining 0 enmity.

When I leveled SAM with soboro, I had to hold back with DD pld's, i'd of hated the thought of holding back even more because the pld subbed DNC instead of WAR.

EDIT: PLD/DNC is great for campaign and gains amazing EXP.

Edited, Oct 27th 2009 4:08pm by Sandmasterr
____________________________
Taking a break.
#57 Oct 27 2009 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,720 posts
Sandmasterr wrote:
Nate wrote:
Quote:
...(and an almost-Voke)



GDI for the last time, it's a FULL PROVOKE. F-ck people. You get 5/6 of a 'voke on the activation plus a 0TP insta-use JA that is 1/6 of a 'voke. What do you think 5/6 + 1/6 adds up to? 6/6 is an "almost-Voke"?

then wrote lots and lots of text on PLD/DNC being great


Animated Flourish IS NOT a full voke, its no where near a full voke. I don't understant what you mean about 5/6 on activation then another 1/6 somewhere?

Provoke = 1800VE
Flash = 1280 VE



You're missing something. Flash shouldn't play a role specifically because it's PLD, not /WAR or /DNC, so it has no bearing in which sub is better.

Sandmasterr wrote:
Wiki wrote:
# Makes a viable replacement for /WAR, however it generates significantly less enmity than Provoke. The strength of the effect depends on the number of finishing moves used.
# Seems to generate as much enmity as Flash.


Kanican recons Animated Flourish produces 1500VE, but from personal experiance, I severely doubt that is the case. Provoke just seems so much more powerful in comparison. In any case, Animated Flourish IS NOT a full provoke.


You're missing a lot. Nate didn't spell it out, but here's what's going on.

Animated Flourish is 1500 VE. 1500/1800=5/6, when reduced. This ONLY functions if you have 2 or more flourishes. If you only have one, I believe you only generate 750 enmity, which is essentially 5/12 of a voke. If you're only getting enough finishing moves to get 1 finishing move for animated flourish, it will be FAR weaker than Provoke, hands down. Since the steps are on a 15 second timer and Flourishes are on a 30 second timer, you CAN juggle it to get the two necessary steps between Flourishes. However, you'd better be landing all your steps, or the 5/6's no longer applies. This accounts for the first part of his statement (and, to be fair, since we're gearing for accuracy as /DNC, anyway, we will most often land two steps between each flourish, providing the full effect).

Here's the point: If this is ALL you're using from /DNC, you're NOT getting a full provoke. (You're also not getting a full Flash, either, since we're ignoring the fact that CE does not equal VE and is often greater than VE.) What needs to be added is the Jigs.

Spectral Jig adds 300 VE for every use, or 1/6 of a Provoke.

Spectral Jig every 30 seconds and guess what you get: 5/6 (from full Animated Flourish) + 1/6 (from Spectral Jig), and you're getting the 1800 VE that Provoke gives. The problem: You won't always land every step and so not always have the VE output that you get from Provoke. It also requires more macros and more macro presses. Whether this is a factor or not is up to the individual PLD, but, given ideal circumstances, the VE generation from /DNC is equal to that of /WAR.

Sandmasterr wrote:
Also, spending all this TP on steps, samba's and waltz's? means way less Vorpals for you. Zerk and Defender are far from lol. 10% DA is around twice as good as 10ACC, and generally a BRD or COR will provide an ACC buff needed, or pty-ing with an actual DNC would be better.


This is what it boils down to to me. I think you're far too general in your assesment. 10 ACC will beat 10 DA if your ACC is low enough (possible to do on ANY job, really), but in general I agree. I greatly preferred /WAR to /DNC, but I won't discount what /DNC adds. (I still claim you NEED to be DD PLD to pull /DNC off, where you DON'T have to be DD PLD to benefit from /WAR, and that stance won't change. I just won't say /WAR is always superior to /DNC.)

I should also comment that you're basically trading WS's for additional Curing CE and VE. The exact trade off is hard to calculate, is party dependent, but I wouldn't be surprised if it worked out VERY similar. I'd probably even parse it if I was still playing just to show how close I really think the two work out to be. /DNC trades offense for enfeebles on the mob and increased curing/staying power.

Sandmasterr wrote:
If you use a step once every 15secs, and a step takes 1SEC to perform (the time most ppl give for JA's) thats 4secs a min your gaining 0 enmity.


Not strictly true, but it's a small difference. All steps add 1 CE. Since we're talking about DD PLD here, that 1 CE isn't ignored. It's just not statistically important and, thus, similar to gaining 0 enmity.

Sandmasterr wrote:
When I leveled SAM with soboro, I had to hold back with DD pld's, i'd of hated the thought of holding back even more because the pld subbed DNC instead of WAR.


I'd suggest you find someone as good as Nate on /DNC. You might find yourself surprised. On paper, both jobs add about the same amount of hate capability. /DNC truly shines, however, when you don't have a DNC or /DNC in the party. At that point, a lot of the luster of the job fades off.

Again, I personally think /DNC and /WAR is a wash. VE generation is virtually identical between the two. The argument of Provoke vs. Animated Flourish comes down to the number of buttons pressed and how quickly you can fire off 4 separate commands (3 of which might need to be back to back but can most likely be split a little bit).

If you don't like /DNC, that's fine. Just don't dismiss it out of hand.
____________________________
Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
#58 Oct 27 2009 at 7:13 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,181 posts
Quote:
Also, spending all this TP on steps, samba's and waltz's? means way less Vorpals for you. Zerk and Defender are far from lol. 10% DA is around twice as good as 10ACC, and generally a BRD or COR will provide an ACC buff needed, or pty-ing with an actual DNC would be better.


If we're talking birds (which is going to be the case for most of the levels where Vorpal is available in the first place), we rarely get to WS as it is. Better to use the TP somehow rather than let it get constantly tickled away.

Quote:
When I leveled SAM with soboro, I had to hold back with DD pld's, i'd of hated the thought of holding back even more because the pld subbed DNC instead of WAR.


Speaking as someone who's tried the whole DD PLD thing out in EXP, I've had SAMs like that in my own parties, and they would have had to hold back even more if I was just turtling and dealing little to no damage myself. I never did try to use /DNC in the course of leveling to 75, though. Probably should have given it a shot on lolibri at least.
#59 Oct 28 2009 at 3:58 AM Rating: Default
***
2,620 posts
Quote:
Fynlar wrote:
When I leveled SAM with soboro, I had to hold back with DD pld's, i'd of hated the thought of holding back even more because the pld subbed DNC instead of WAR.



Speaking as someone who's tried the whole DD PLD thing out in EXP, I've had SAMs like that in my own parties, and they would have had to hold back even more if I was just turtling and dealing little to no damage myself.


I'm not advocating turtle PLD's, DD PLD (for VT-low IT mobs) imo is the way to go, the rest is situational.

Dracoth wrote:

I'd suggest you find someone as good as Nate on /DNC. You might find yourself surprised. On paper, both jobs add about the same amount of hate capability. /DNC truly shines, however, when you don't have a DNC or /DNC in the party. At that point, a lot of the luster of the job fades off.


So are you saying a DD PLD /DNC would be better than a DD PLD/WAR? I'm Saying that, because I had to hold back with DD PLD's /WAR, your saying their both fairly equal, so why would a PLD/DNC suprise me?

The PLD/DNC's only possible worth (imho) win exp would be pink camp pty's. If you work out on paper per minute, how much hate can be generated from the 2 jobs, /DNC fails from steps (lets face it) causing no hate (~4secs/min), you needing to spend 2 JA's per min (another 4secs) to do what voke does in 1sec, obviously ACC permitting (2secs/min). I know timing would be slightly over 60secs, but you essentially have to use 8secs/min to get the same hate than voke can in 2secs/min.

You then get less hate from having less Vorpals (again doesn't matter as much in pink pty's unless your DD's are all pimp + pulling hate)

You shouldn't need to use tp on waltz's due to at least 4-5/tick refresh.

In regards to Nate, from what i understand, he doesn't play on PC (think I remember him writing about wanting to parse but not being able to becasue of playing on 360 etc etc), so with limited scriptless macro's, No visible Ja count-down (which DNC or /DNC benefits from amazingly), your not able to macro in all the enmity to make him 'suprise me' or w/e his PLD/DNC can do. I'm not denying Nate isn't a good player, because he obviously is, and he thinks about the game from many angles, but i've had debates with him before and his posts are far to long, he rates down ppl with opposing views (remember the last Ethereal VS Hollow debate on MNK forum?) and i've never seen him admit when he is wrong.
____________________________
Taking a break.
#60 Oct 28 2009 at 11:12 AM Rating: Good
***
2,720 posts
Sandmasterr wrote:
So are you saying a DD PLD /DNC would be better than a DD PLD/WAR? I'm Saying that, because I had to hold back with DD PLD's /WAR, your saying their both fairly equal, so why would a PLD/DNC suprise me?


Because it works better than you're giving it credit for. I found it to be very much equivalent to /WAR the few times I played it, I just personally preferred going /WAR. Again, that's personal preference. And, the reason it would surprise you is that I really doubt a good PLD/DNC would have made you pull back ANY MORE than a PLD/WAR.

Sandmasterr wrote:
The PLD/DNC's only possible worth (imho) win exp would be pink camp pty's. If you work out on paper per minute, how much hate can be generated from the 2 jobs, /DNC fails from steps (lets face it) causing no hate (~4secs/min), you needing to spend 2 JA's per min (another 4secs) to do what voke does in 1sec, obviously ACC permitting (2secs/min). I know timing would be slightly over 60secs, but you essentially have to use 8secs/min to get the same hate than voke can in 2secs/min.


Again, you're making a minor mistake. Those JA's are NOT hateless. They're 1 CE. Sure, 1 CE shouldn't make or break it, but it IS CE that the /WAR isn't getting. And the timing is, personally, a non-issue. It's more that you have to hit more macros, imo. How many PLD's are voking exactly every 30 seconds anyway? It might cost you one more swing in those 30 seconds, but that's about it. That may or may not break the PLD - depends on a lot of other factors (overall accuracy, damage per hit, etc) that I don't want to get into right now.

Sandmasterr wrote:
You then get less hate from having less Vorpals (again doesn't matter as much in pink pty's unless your DD's are all pimp + pulling hate)

You shouldn't need to use tp on waltz's due to at least 4-5/tick refresh.


You can't quote the reason that you make up for the WS's by saying that you shouldn't need it. And, guess what, if you REALLY feel that way... You're really not cutting down THAT much on your Vorpals if you're NOT using the TP to cure. Yes, you might have slightly less Vorpals over time, but if all you're using is the TP for the steps themselves, you can easily fit vorpals in and not be too worried about having enough TP to perform steps. Just don't vorpal around the 15 second mark and you'll be fine.

You also can't discount the benefit the enfeebles of Box Step and Quickstep have on a mob. Evasion and Defense down help make up for the Attack bonus of the /WAR as well as helping everyone else in the party better. I'll agree that if you have a DNC in the party, PLD/DNC just isn't as effective, but to discount it entirely seems as foolhardy to me as those who discount either turtle PLDs or DD PLDs - it has its merits.

My comment about finding a PLD like Nate is finding one who HAS optimized for /DNC. I haven't - I only know the theory behind it and played around with it in low man groups. I've personally seen the merits of it, but my /WAR is far more tricked out.
____________________________
Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
#61 Dec 03 2009 at 2:26 AM Rating: Decent
*
50 posts
Personally i didnt had good experiences with DD plds either, always was a disaster, and more when they dont even know to heal their self :/
But as someone said, every gear in this game is situational, if you go DD all time its wrong, on that party for example, at that level you could have been stacking shield skill, some vit, def and taco and you could have done it well, puks at 58 aren't so bad as long as you have good DDs to kill them fast.
I personally leveled my pld long ago in turtle mode and never had problem holding hate with voke/flash/cures, unless its at the end of colibri xp range where they die like in meripos :o
You can't say never that a set up is better always, its always situaltional, if your party kills fast enough you can DD up w/o any problem usually, but if the party goes slow, you better have some way to mitigate dmg or you will be just a sponge and will cause delay, if the DDs arent good enough, you arent going to save the day for being a pld DD, so just save the mages some MP.
At 75, yes, its really a lot different, just because atonement owns <3
you usually go /nin so you can mittigate dmg, and can go full DD while shadows are up and get tp for Atonement spam, that beats any turtle pld that tries to hold hate with just flash/cures.
But anyway, at any level, have your different sets of gear, and use it properly depending on th situation, dont always go with the same set up, everything in this game is situational.
#62 Dec 03 2009 at 2:52 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
25 posts
I used DD Pld from 70 to 75 because I already had a Joyeuse. I still ate Tacos but I still had enough acc from gear to be effective. I am not really a fan of turtle Plds because if you have a well geared DD in your pt that DD will almost always have hate.
#63 Dec 03 2009 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
***
2,720 posts
AlbertoMagno wrote:
Personally i didnt had good experiences with DD plds either, always was a disaster, and more when they dont even know to heal their self :/


A PLD that doesn't use cures for hate IS doing it wrong, no matter turtle or DD.

AlbertoMagno wrote:
But as someone said, every gear in this game is situational, if you go DD all time its wrong, on that party for example, at that level you could have been stacking shield skill, some vit, def and taco and you could have done it well, puks at 58 aren't so bad as long as you have good DDs to kill them fast.


True in emphasis, false in specifics. It's the same thing as the "UBERAWESOMEBBQMERITPARTIES" situations but has a more practical application - there is a way to get the most XP/hour possible at ANY level range, and (for the PLD) it involves DD PLD. What isn't correct about it is WHEN to use DD PLD in relation to the mobs. Ideally, you should be targeting VT mobs (the same mobs Merit Parties are after) - less level difference hurting EVERYONE in the party (acc, defense, damage taken, etc). DD PLD works better than turtle PLD, but only in the situations that work for it. Hint: Every level has situations that work for it.

AlbertoMagno wrote:
I personally leveled my pld long ago in turtle mode and never had problem holding hate with voke/flash/cures, unless its at the end of colibri xp range where they die like in meripos :o


Emphasis here for my earlier point - these parties are possible at almost all levels. Maybe not endless chains, but "squishiness," "time per kill," and "damage intake" for the party will be similar. Nothing is wrong with what you did - it just could have been done faster.

AlbertoMagno wrote:
You can't say never that a set up is better always, its always situaltional, if your party kills fast enough you can DD up w/o any problem usually, but if the party goes slow, you better have some way to mitigate dmg or you will be just a sponge and will cause delay


Agree here - it's been my point all along. However, you'd be better off (as a DD PLD) moving camps to one that supports DD PLD. You WILL make more XP/hour by doing this.

AlbertoMagno wrote:
if the DDs arent good enough, you arent going to save the day for being a pld DD, so just save the mages some MP.


It's actually not the DD's that are the problem - if the mages can support the damage intake, then you can DD. See above. [I'm not saying that the DD's don't matter here, specifically, but if your mages CAN handle it, you CAN make up for "close to par" DD's with a DD setup.]

AlbertoMagno wrote:
But anyway, at any level, have your different sets of gear, and use it properly depending on th situation, dont always go with the same set up, everything in this game is situational.


I'll kind of agree with this. Better solution: find the camps that work for the setup you have and go from there. I didn't get ANY turtle gear until I was 75 and needed that setup for the big guys (not every one of them can be /NIN'd).

Also, I feel like I've said this recently... Responding to similar responses in the same thread will do that.
____________________________
Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
#64 Dec 03 2009 at 6:58 PM Rating: Good
*
50 posts
Dracoth wrote:
AlbertoMagno wrote:
Personally i didnt had good experiences with DD plds either, always was a disaster, and more when they dont even know to heal their self :/


A PLD that doesn't use cures for hate IS doing it wrong, no matter turtle or DD.


Yeah, well, thats totally true, my point was that a full DD pld takes a lot more dmg than a turtle pld when you are killing IT+, and if they dont cure their self is even worse. But yes, as you said, any Pld that dont heal his self or others for hate is doing it wrong.

Dracoth wrote:

AlbertoMagno wrote:
But as someone said, every gear in this game is situational, if you go DD all time its wrong, on that party for example, at that level you could have been stacking shield skill, some vit, def and taco and you could have done it well, puks at 58 aren't so bad as long as you have good DDs to kill them fast.


True in emphasis, false in specifics. It's the same thing as the "UBERAWESOMEBBQMERITPARTIES" situations but has a more practical application - there is a way to get the most XP/hour possible at ANY level range, and (for the PLD) it involves DD PLD. What isn't correct about it is WHEN to use DD PLD in relation to the mobs. Ideally, you should be targeting VT mobs (the same mobs Merit Parties are after) - less level difference hurting EVERYONE in the party (acc, defense, damage taken, etc). DD PLD works better than turtle PLD, but only in the situations that work for it. Hint: Every level has situations that work for it.


Yes, thats for sure, a DD pld works better than a turtle pld in a correct camp, i didnt said at any time that turtle is better than DD or DD better than turtle, my point was that a good pld needs to have both sets of gear and use them accordingly to the camp chosen by the party.
For example, i like lesser colibri burns at 58, they die so fast and you can do nice chains there, turtle pld there would be useless, but if you come at 54 and DDs kill slow, you gonna need to mitigate dmg or the party wont work for mp issues, always depends on the set up of the party and the level.

Dracoth wrote:

AlbertoMagno wrote:
I personally leveled my pld long ago in turtle mode and never had problem holding hate with voke/flash/cures, unless its at the end of colibri xp range where they die like in meripos :o


Emphasis here for my earlier point - these parties are possible at almost all levels. Maybe not endless chains, but "squishiness," "time per kill," and "damage intake" for the party will be similar. Nothing is wrong with what you did - it just could have been done faster.


Well, honestly i didnt partied since a lot of months ago, besides of meripos, so dont know if things have changed or not, but i always camped things IT++ with all my jobs, so thats why i only had turtle mode, but yes, i know i was doing it wrong, in some partys, like some 58 colibri burns where i was useless cuz besides the first voke/flash only thing i could do was healing the DDs.
So again, i recomend that if you are serious with pld, have al your gear sets and use them on the situation for each one.

Dracoth wrote:

AlbertoMagno wrote:
You can't say never that a set up is better always, its always situaltional, if your party kills fast enough you can DD up w/o any problem usually, but if the party goes slow, you better have some way to mitigate dmg or you will be just a sponge and will cause delay


Agree here - it's been my point all along. However, you'd be better off (as a DD PLD) moving camps to one that supports DD PLD. You WILL make more XP/hour by doing this.


yes, im with you in this point, i like to camp better on VT-low IT mobs than on IT++, but well, you can't always choose the camp, usually the leader choose it and you have to adapt yourself to it, unless you form your owns partys, but personally i leveled my pld just acepting invites and every time was on IT++, besides a few colibri burns, so i just adapted myself to it.

Dracoth wrote:

AlbertoMagno wrote:
if the DDs arent good enough, you arent going to save the day for being a pld DD, so just save the mages some MP.


It's actually not the DD's that are the problem - if the mages can support the damage intake, then you can DD. See above. [I'm not saying that the DD's don't matter here, specifically, but if your mages CAN handle it, you CAN make up for "close to par" DD's with a DD setup.]


Well, not just the DDs, but all the party counts, DDs, support, tank and the healer, but if the DDs can pump nice dmg on the mobs to kill them fast, you wont take any dmg, so MP is going to be ok.
The longer the mob lives, the more mp that you use per mob.
For example, in a meripo, i can heal better a party with 3 good drg/war than with 3 bad drg/nin, because even if you tank them as drg with berserk up, the mobs gonna die before you can take any damage at all, more if is on lolibris, where you just cast a dia and the mob will die while reclecting it.(this is just a example)
But my point was that, if your party can kill fast enough to dont care much about heal, then a pld DD is better, but if the mob is taking 2 minutes to die then you have to worry more about mitigate dmg.

Dracoth wrote:

AlbertoMagno wrote:
But anyway, at any level, have your different sets of gear, and use it properly depending on th situation, dont always go with the same set up, everything in this game is situational.


I'll kind of agree with this. Better solution: find the camps that work for the setup you have and go from there. I didn't get ANY turtle gear until I was 75 and needed that setup for the big guys (not every one of them can be /NIN'd).


I did just the inverted that you :/ didn't got any DD gear until i was 75 and had atonemet, and now i regret it, cause it would have been very fun to try every aspect of the job while leveling it too.
So that's my reason to recomend to have all the sets.
If you are serious with pld and leveling it because you like it, then enjoy the job on its full potential, or you will regret it one day :)
#65 Dec 03 2009 at 7:11 PM Rating: Good
***
2,720 posts
AlbertoMagno wrote:
Dracoth wrote:

AlbertoMagno wrote:
But as someone said, every gear in this game is situational, if you go DD all time its wrong, on that party for example, at that level you could have been stacking shield skill, some vit, def and taco and you could have done it well, puks at 58 aren't so bad as long as you have good DDs to kill them fast.


True in emphasis, false in specifics. It's the same thing as the "UBERAWESOMEBBQMERITPARTIES" situations but has a more practical application - there is a way to get the most XP/hour possible at ANY level range, and (for the PLD) it involves DD PLD. What isn't correct about it is WHEN to use DD PLD in relation to the mobs. Ideally, you should be targeting VT mobs (the same mobs Merit Parties are after) - less level difference hurting EVERYONE in the party (acc, defense, damage taken, etc). DD PLD works better than turtle PLD, but only in the situations that work for it. Hint: Every level has situations that work for it.


Yes, thats for sure, a DD pld works better than a turtle pld in a correct camp, i didnt said at any time that turtle is better than DD or DD better than turtle, my point was that a good pld needs to have both sets of gear and use them accordingly to the camp chosen by the party.
For example, i like lesser colibri burns at 58, they die so fast and you can do nice chains there, turtle pld there would be useless, but if you come at 54 and DDs kill slow, you gonna need to mitigate dmg or the party wont work for mp issues, always depends on the set up of the party and the level.


Although you address this again a little later (and you're right), you're also in your right to refuse a camp you know won't work with your setup. A good way of doing this is "My style of tanking would prefer we go to this other camp for a few levels first," not, "You're all idiots for trying to go here!" Even if you're not the leader, you have some influence on where you camp.


AlbertoMagno wrote:
Dracoth wrote:
AlbertoMagno wrote:
if the DDs arent good enough, you arent going to save the day for being a pld DD, so just save the mages some MP.
It's actually not the DD's that are the problem - if the mages can support the damage intake, then you can DD. See above. [I'm not saying that the DD's don't matter here, specifically, but if your mages CAN handle it, you CAN make up for "close to par" DD's with a DD setup.]
Well, not just the DDs, but all the party counts, DDs, support, tank and the healer, but if the DDs can pump nice dmg on the mobs to kill them fast, you wont take anys much dmg, so MP is going to be ok.
The longer the mob lives, the more mp that you use per mob.


See my sig for the party that I first parsed (with half-assed DD gear, to boot). In my specific case (won't say it's all cases), it resulted in one extra Cure III per fight.

AlbertoMagno wrote:
But my point was that, if your party can kill fast enough to dont care much about heal, then a pld DD is better, but if the mob is taking 2 minutes to die then you have to worry more about mitigate dmg.


If you're taking 2 minutes to kill the mob and your party is struggling to survive, you need to move to a different camp.

AlbertoMagno wrote:
If you are serious with pld and leveling it because you like it, then enjoy the job on its full potential, or you will regret it one day :)


Eh. I don't regret not having any defensive gears for 1-75. I got what I needed quickly enough at 75 that it wasn't an issue any longer. However, your point is valid and people should at least try both types at different times - my experience (and reasoning) just suggests that a correctly placed DD PLD will yield far greater XP/hour than a turtle PLD. For me, it was also more fun.
____________________________
Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
#66 Dec 29 2009 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
13 posts
I don't think you did anything wrong, I've been playing FFXI since the NA release and PLD was my first job to 75. (It's currently my only 75 job) I always prioritized the VIT and DEF gear, but that's just my playing style. The beautiful thing about this MMORPG is that you can do whatever YOU want, so if someone slams you for wearing the "wrong" gear, don't worry about it. There is no wrong. But, you will have to make adjustments to be a successful party, if getting exp is your game.

I always thought it was okay to lose hate for a few hits; you'll get it back.
____________________________
Contuar

Male [Elvaan]
75PLD/69WAR/37NIN
Lakshmi [San d'Oria]

#67 Dec 30 2009 at 2:19 AM Rating: Excellent
****
6,964 posts
Contuar wrote:
but that's just my playing style


Ah the classic excuse for being a **** retard gimp. You're a bad tank if you prioritize that **** now that we know how things work. It was excusable back in the day. It's not anymore and stop acting like it is.

Also, necro? What the hell?
1 2 Next »
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 11 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (11)