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I had my first "Wheres your VIT gear?!" party todayFollow

#27 Sep 25 2009 at 3:32 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't have a joyeuse though. :(

You are right about the amnesia thing also I suppose. But you know, if I eat pizza or sushi I hit pretty dang hard too, just slow. Just not much compared to ACTUAL dd jobs that use great sword. But, I do take dd'ing quite seriously, and use a full dd set when I do.

martial sword, pole grip or mythril grip +1, olibanum sachet, walahra turban (not below 75..) chiv chain, minuet earring, fowling earring, haubergeon, dusk gloves, garrulous ring, ecphoria ring, amemet mantle, life belt with +2 STR aug, valor breeches, and heroic boots. That's just my dd set, but I macro in a lot of STR+ (around +50) for weapon skilling.

Quote:
This doesn't compute with Defense and Vitality gear... If you're going with a Hauby, you should really complement it with a solid DD set, as well. But, ultimately, if you're having fun AND doing your job as tank, you're set.


I meant for mikey since he's goin dd style :P

Edited, Sep 25th 2009 7:37pm by StephisaMAN
#28 Sep 25 2009 at 5:09 PM Rating: Decent
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NatePrawdzik wrote:
Eat dorado sushi, sub dancer, and don't overcamp. If you're on birds, use the cheapest sushi you can afford to spam (dorado is best), and alternate aspir samba/drain samba as needed.

Every single PLD I've convinced to sub DNC had hated it for about 30min until they got the hang of how you hold hate in a party as /dnc, and then every single one has made the swap permanent and never gone back to /war. Seriously, try it.

In fact, don't just try it, parse it. See the difference. You will easily double or triple the amount of HP you are able to restore, making mage MP pools last far, far longer while simultaneously lowering the monster's evasion or defense for your primary DD's to kill it even faster.


Post Lv60, the only real benefit of /dnc is the ACC bonus. The gimpy voke isn't enough to turn the mob ever. Lv60 to pre-Joytoy level, I'd say the DA, ATK bonus, Zerk, Provoke and other traits of /war trump /dnc. You can use TP to cure yourself, but hate won't be cemented on you anyways. The first Penta or misc WS that goes off is not on you anymore regardless. I've seen DNC/war tank at these levels and they do ok because of the 2 vokes plus heals.

I'm sorry, but a PLD/dnc would not hold hate. SAM and DRG jobs would tank without even trying and the PLD would just be stuck on healing duties.
#29 Sep 25 2009 at 5:55 PM Rating: Decent
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You will easily double or triple the amount of HP you are able to restore

Okay, but why is that beneficial? Why doesn't your party have a healer that can keep up with healing? Of course, cures are great for hate control, but damage-dealing is great for hate control too, and has the additional advantage of speeding up the fight. /DNC isn't simply a much inferior DD sub compared to /WAR; it actually gives you less damage output than you'd have with no subjob at all, since you eat tp to cure.

And a quick look at the enmity tables shows that cures, while awesome for sustained hate control, take too long to build proper hate for the short fights that should be happening while EXPing. Provoke, for all its flaws, is great for grabbing hate quickly, especially when coupled with an initial weaponskill (which you also don't get when /DNC).

Frankly, I'd suggest that if mobs are surviving long enough for a tank to hold hate with cures, then something is wrong with that EXPing situation. You specifically say "don't overcamp," but a party that isn't overcamping shouldn't be needing what /DNC offers. If you have time to hold hate with cures, do double or triple the number of cures, and meaningfully debuff the mob, then the fights are lasting way too long, and you're either overcamping or just plain terrible. If anything, /DNC looks like it gets more viable the more you are overcamping, because all those extra cures will be needed to keep you alive, and fights that drag on will actually offer enough time to build meaningful hate from curing.

*edit* As an aside, no PLD should be eating sushi. A properly-geared PLD should never need more than pizza on an EXP-level mob.

Edited, Sep 25th 2009 10:00pm by Caesura
#30 Sep 25 2009 at 10:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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<player1> i get that DDing works, but i prefer to play by staying alive and holding hate.
<player2> but wait, that stuff you're wearing doesn't even do much for mitigating damage. here, look at this and this and this.
<player1> it works for me.

(   ;  _  ;)p


Edited, Sep 26th 2009 2:15am by milich
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#31 Sep 26 2009 at 3:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Meh, imps are not that bad. I get to WS them a helluva lot more often than I get to WS colibri.

Amnesia just delays WS usage, it doesn't kill it entirely.
#32 Sep 26 2009 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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Seriously when I hear vit/def cries, it just shouts "idk how things work, but my experience is far superior than how things work" Do they not know that the difference in def/vit from a DD setup is sooo small that it wont matter, not to mention the fact that def/vit already dont matter for 90% of what goes on in this game half the time.

Full af set vs a typical DD set = 19def(vitdef included)4vit vs 7str 23.5att 4dex(-3dex from af) 17acc

Thats a huge increase for a pld just for head/body/hands/legs, feet is default af outside /nin. Where on the AF gear(outside feet) are there stats that will help you with anything when taking/dealing damage? Even the set doesnt have much vitality anyhow(lol 4) and the def difference is 19 with that vit, is 19 def really keeping you from dying?

Lots of complaints about DD pld will exist if you dont hold hate well,die once or often,drain all the mp from mages. However more often than blaming player skill on that,it will be overcamping that is the culprit.
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#33 Sep 26 2009 at 11:32 AM Rating: Default
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GEAR MACROS!! "everything is situational" know when to use DD gear and know when to use turtle gear. Its all about knowing when to use each set. That is what makes a good pld. Just be prepared for any situation, which includes having a turtle set. DD build is pointless if you are wasting the mages' mp, therefore creating excess downtime, or even dieing, creating more excess downtime. Know which setup is more beneficial to the pt to maximize exp/hour. Just because dd pld is the modern tanking strategy does not mean it works in every situation. I am not for or against dd pld or turtle pld, I am all for knowing how to play pld and that includes both. Know your mob, know your camp, know your party, most importantly... know your job.
#34 Sep 26 2009 at 11:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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DD build is pointless if you are wasting the mages' mp, therefore creating excess downtime, or even dieing, creating more excess downtime.

Except that, again, the difference in protection between a DD build and a VIT/DEF build is... almost nothing. If you are sponging mp or dying in DD gear, you would sponge mp or die in DEF/VIT gear. And, in that DEF/VIT gear, you'll do less damage and hold hate less well, so the fight will take longer and the extra hits you take will end up doing more damage than the VIT/DEF gear prevented.

If DEF/VIT gear actually lowered the damage you take by a meaningful amount, then it would be worth using "situationally," but it doesn't.

Once a PLD is using a proper size 3 shield and wearing +shield gear, there isn't much more he can do to mitigate damage with gear. DEF/VIT gear is pretty much never a solution to taking damage.

*edit* And, as an aside, it's really embarrassing how long it took us to figure this out. It's funny how something can be right under your nose and not be really obvious. You'd think SAMs would have noticed right away that they always had 95% WS accuracy no matter their gear, but it took years for them to see it. The DEF/VIT thing should have been obvious to PLDs from almost the start -- anyone who has added 100 DEF with Defender and seen damage taken barely drop should have figured out that an extra few DEF on a shirt was never going to matter.

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 3:53pm by Caesura
#35 Sep 26 2009 at 5:59 PM Rating: Good
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Okay, but why is that beneficial? Why doesn't your party have a healer that can keep up with healing? Of course, cures are great for hate control, but damage-dealing is great for hate control too, and has the additional advantage of speeding up the fight. /DNC isn't simply a much inferior DD sub compared to /WAR; it actually gives you less damage output than you'd have with no subjob at all, since you eat tp to cure.


You can have a one healer party who focuses on Haste, Dia, Regen, and occasionally pops a cure now and then. Let's assume that amazing mages can do all that while main-healing and they can make it seem easy, but **** I don't carry one of those in my back pocket. I specifically make it so that random mages have no excuse to let haste drop or not to start off with dia because they are resting. I submit that both those things being consistent and constant will improve kill speed markedly. When your mage stands up to dia at less than 100% mob health because they were taking a knee, you've lost a lot of DoT, potentially. If they never have to take a knee because you are self-sufficient and they have enough refresh to cover buff/debuff cycle, damage goes up.

/dnc increases the damage output of your ENTIRE front-line. You are mistaken that it does nothing to increase kill speed. On a typical monster you land at least 2 steps. That's one to start, one at 15 seconds later. You may get a 3rd off if your fights take longer than ~30 seconds, as well (and that's honestly more realistic at these levels).

Quickstep: First one is like giving +8ACC to your party, which means 4% higher hit rate, which is a pretty hefty increase to DoT right there. You could do the 2nd one and push that up by 4ACC again, or you can possibly get more effect by making your 2nd step be...
Boxstep: Lowers enemy defense by 5%. Since people usually WS toward the 2nd half of the mob's life, this is a perfect preceding debuff. On Greater Colibri, they have DEF of 330 or so. Unfortunately I don't have stats for regular Colibri, but 5% of 330 is about 17. So now you have given your party 8ACC 17ATK (less ATK for the lower level ones, but you get the idea). These debuffs last for 1min and the 2nd can be applied 15 seconds after the first. If the fight takes longer than 30 seconds, you can add another 4ACC buff to the front line (you should generally use alternating steps), at least after level 60. Before 60 you just do multiple Quicksteps and keep stacking the ACC bonus instead (which is still fantastic).

My point: that's your whole melee front-line getting buffed!

Quote:
/DNC... actually gives you less damage output than you'd have with no subjob at all, since you eat tp to cure.


Ridiculous on a number of levels. Here's why:
1) If colibri is the target, you never WS as /war (or almost never) because they steal TP.

2) Regardless of colibri or not colibri, nobody makes you "eat TP" just because you are /dnc. You get the choice. Ask yourself, "Am I taking too much damage?" Yes: spin some TP out and save your mage some MP if you want. No: store TP and blow it on WS if you want. Note both options are your choice.

3) Due to /dnc Samba effect, you and your mages need cure less HP over time. And after 60, due to /dnc ACC bonus, you are getting TP faster. What does putting these together do? It means it's even easier and safer to WS as /dnc than as /war... But then again (of course), /war doesn't have the choice to do anything else. That sucks. Even before 60, the effect of Quickstep alone is enough to raise your TP gain, and everyone else's (!!).

4) Defender is crap. Perma-berserk is... pretty foolish in most cases. That means /war is offering you a big fat DA bonus, ATK bonus of 10, and a few meaningless points of STR. It should deal more damage then, right? No, because remember what I said earlier: you have given your party 8ACC 17ATK (minus whatever due to lower level targets). And after 60 there's a 10(!) ACC bonus for you personally. I therefore submit you will deal MORE damage /dnc than /war, and more importantly: so will your whole party.

5) All these benefits are yours, and in addition you are take less MP to support while offering greater benefits to both front and back line (debuffs and MP savings, respectively).

/war is /fail in comparison. The only exception being: You are in a party where you can leave berserk up, such as with a PL. Then /dnc is not going to keep up.

Anyway, as long as you aren't a stupid /dnc player who sits on TP, you're going to do more for your party with that sub than with the benefits that any other sub can offer at these levels (in typical parties).

Don't believe me? PARSE it. Seriously, go change subs and level sync for an hour and parse it. Then change again and repeat for another hour. I already have and I already know which works better (and why). Now you try...

To the other posters:

As far as the pizza vs sushi thing that the other poster brought up, I agree pizza is the way to go. I only mentioned sushi specifically because the OP was talking Wajaom, and so I therefore assume the target is birds. Pizza is difficult to recommend there.

As far as the /dnc 'voke thing goes. The provoke is 5/6 of a regular provoke. If that isn't good enough for you to hold hate along with flash and your other tools, then /war isn't going to do a **** thing to help you. If you are really bothered by the 5/6 thing, spectral jig coincidentally happens to produce the remaining 1/6, is instant, costs 0TP, and can be used every 30 seconds just like Animated Flourish can (/dnc 'voke). The provoke argument is an argument of ignorance. /dnc higher rate of cures is going to equate to more hate held than /war's lack of cures. Yes, you hold hate better, not worse. You hold hate better.

DEF/VIT argument: It's silly and with /dnc it's a total moot point anyway since you have an endless well-spring of cures to draw from. Go all-out DD gear and raise DoT in this manner. I'm talking Sentinel Shield, the works. Just rock as much DD gear as you can and put out the highest DoT possible. It's best for your hate-holding and your EXP/HR, which is really the bottom line. That said, certainly you should macro in enmity for Flash, cures, 'vokes, etc. If you don't want to blink, there are options in non-blink slots so there's really no excuse on this one. The pointlessness of worrying about DEF is why we don't list /war Defense Bonus as an advantage to that sub, just as /dnc Evasion Bonus is not listed as an advantage either. The only defensive boost that the two of them give which matters is /dnc Subtle Blow, and only if it's enough to make enough of a difference that you take less TP moves over time. That's too fine a hair to cut and so even though I support the sub, I prefer to leave that particular claim out.

I keep getting rated down and that's unfortunate since the information is both important and correct.
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#36 Sep 26 2009 at 7:09 PM Rating: Decent
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NatePrawdzik wrote:
A lot of stuff.

You raise a lot of good points. There's definitely some stuff in there I hadn't considered.

You throw out some strawmen too, though. Yes, if your backline has only one person in it, you'll save him some much-needed mp. Perhaps /DNC opens some doors in this regard, but I have to say that I don't think I ever partied with a one-person backline as a tanking PLD. And, sure, a /DNC can choose not to use tp for dances. But... why would you choose a subjob and then not use it? However, yes, if you never use tp for dances, /DNC is not worse offensively than no subjob at all, because you still get an accuracy bonus trait.

In the end, it's hard for me not to think that your points about what /DNC can do almost all involve filling holes that shouldn't need to be filled, especially by the tank. Since the addition of pizza, ACC shouldn't be an issue in any EXP party. A party that struggles with mp because of all the curing really has other issues beyond the tank's subjob. And, a PLD can already cure.

In the end, /DNC brings a PLD a half-level samba, some debuffs, and an ACC trait (and an almost-Voke). I can see how those things could be useful to a party. However, if your party needs those things, why is the tank, of all people, providing them? Frankly, given that a lot of DNC is about healing, I'd rather see /DNC on someone who couldn't already cure; if the curing is such a big deal, why not have a whole extra party member who can do it?

I think there's an excellent case for /DNC being useful; I'm just not as convinced that there's a good case for PLD/DNC being the place to get it.

As an aside, I've seen PLD/DNC in action, several times. I was not impressed. Now, that doesn't prove anything, because bad players won't make a traditional and accepted job combination work, either. But, it also highlights the opposite: just because something works, doesn't mean that it's still the best way to do things. "It works for me so it must be fine" is an attitude that these boards generally condemn. I've no doubt that a skilled player can make PLD/DNC successful; that's not the same as proving that it's optimal.

(and, perhaps I'm just missing something, but I don't see what a parse tells us about any of this. Of course /DNC cures more, but the parse won't show whether that curing was actually needed, or whether the saved mp benefited the party in other ways.)
#37 Sep 26 2009 at 7:37 PM Rating: Decent
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KojiroSoma wrote:
You see, once you can take the damage, you can slowly start to switch in DD pieces for existing Tank pieces (Enmity, HP, Def) on your way to 75.
But not at 75?
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#38 Sep 26 2009 at 11:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
GEAR MACROS!! "everything is situational" know when to use DD gear and know when to use turtle gear. Its all about knowing when to use each set. That is what makes a good pld. Just be prepared for any situation, which includes having a turtle set. DD build is pointless if you are wasting the mages' mp, therefore creating excess downtime, or even dieing, creating more excess downtime. Know which setup is more beneficial to the pt to maximize exp/hour. Just because dd pld is the modern tanking strategy does not mean it works in every situation. I am not for or against dd pld or turtle pld, I am all for knowing how to play pld and that includes both. Know your mob, know your camp, know your party, most importantly... know your job.


Defensive wise, you realize there isnt any difference in damage you are taking vs DD ?

Knowing how to play pld means you know that def/vit offers you the least gains for anything half the time. Your AF boots are doing more for you than the extra def/vit you are squeezing out trying to "turtle up" Atleast thats how ppl view turtling up as, vit/hp/def/enmity.

When I turtle up, its -damage taken gear(mag/phy(situational) + shield skill gear, thats it. Only when terror'd/stunned would I toss on HP/vit/def w/e because when you cant move, vit/def is doing more for you than haste/acc/att etc.

If you are taking too much damage its not your gear, you are either under skilled in shield or over camping.
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#39 Sep 27 2009 at 12:49 AM Rating: Good
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Allright, I agree with what you are saying that def/vit does not make a noticeable difference in damage taken. I use a haste gear macro, shield skill +, enmity, hp+, and dd/tp gear macros (ws macros kind of irrelevant here).

When I would tank in exp parties, I would tp in dd setup, macro in enmity for JAs FLash, and voke. I would also macro in hp+ and enmity for cures. If for whatever reason, I start taking more damage than I should, I would switch to shield skill+, hp+, and spam cures.

I obviously misused the term "turtle" because I was not thinking of def/vit when I said turtle gear. Shield blocks will prevent the most damage hands down. No amount of def/vit can compare to shield skill.

My apologies for totally getting the points of the argument messed up.

def/vit = practically worthless, if you are taking too much damage, you should reevaluate your party setup, camp, support, etc... I had no problems keeping hate and staying alive with the macro sets I mentioned above and none of them are geared towards def/vit

I was just trying to emphasize the benefits of using a variety of gear sets rather than being limited to one gear set.

Edited, Sep 27th 2009 4:57am by TheBlackFrankWhite
#40 Sep 27 2009 at 2:42 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
but I have to say that I don't think I ever partied with a one-person backline as a tanking PLD


I would think not, specifically because I can't imagine PLD/war would survive. That was one of the many points I was making. PLD/dnc *can* do this. You *can* drop a back-liner and pick up another DD. The sub that gives you more control is generally stronger. I wasn't straw-manning like that's the only party you will have. I was saying it's a new option you pick up by changing subs. Options are good things.

Quote:
And, sure, a /DNC can choose not to use tp for dances. But... why would you choose a subjob and then not use it?


What do you mean not use it? Your sambas and steps suddenly don't work because you used a WS? You're tunnel-visioning.

Quote:
...(and an almost-Voke)


GDI for the last time, it's a FULL PROVOKE. F-ck people. You get 5/6 of a 'voke on the activation plus a 0TP insta-use JA that is 1/6 of a 'voke. What do you think 5/6 + 1/6 adds up to? 6/6 is an "almost-Voke"?

Quote:
Frankly, given that a lot of DNC is about healing, I'd rather see /DNC on someone who couldn't already cure; if the curing is such a big deal, why not have a whole extra party member who can do it?


Bottom line for me in regards to why PLD/dnc is that it's stupid for the other melee to /dnc when they:
1) Can't leverage the 'voke effectively since you want the hate
2) Can't afford the enmity from cures since you want the hate
3) Are better DD's than you and benefit more from a DD oriented support job than you
4) Have a superior option already in the party (YOU) to be the /dnc member

PLD/war + MNK/dnc <- Incorrect
PLD/dnc + MNK/war <- Correct

Yes, the MNK/war is going to pull hate sometimes. Guess what? He'll do that if you are /war too, 'cause that's what they do. And you know what's really cool? PLD/dnc doesn't give a crap. You tell your DD's to go all out, and you cure it right back to yourself if they pull hate... For 0 MP! PLD/war 'vokes and starts blowing MP, then stands there looking dumb and complaining that the DD's are MP sinks and need to tone it back once they are out. And if your DD's can't pull it off you (sentinel is up, or maybe you have a TA)? Then WS the **** thing and move on to the next mob, assuming you can even ready 100TP in the first place ***** birds).

And yes, that's another way PLD/dnc can raise party DoT. Because your other DD's can go all out without repercussion. The MP loss to cure them is irrelevant because it's not MP loss, it's your TP loss. Your TP loss is not worth a **** compared to the MNK or SAM's increased TP gain and WS frequency. That's a NET GAIN. That's a GOOD TANK, raising total party efficiency.

Frankly, and here's the thing I guess you and I don't see eye-to-eye on:
There is no reason to waste a party slot on a dedicated tank unless that tank allows the DD's to reach their maximum potential.

Going SAM or /sam or NIN or /nin with all DD's who can bounce hate is more efficient when the DD's have to hold back anyway with a PLD/war in party. YOU are a wasted slot on PLD unless you can do more than just "tank", which is something quality parties don't need in the first place!

Get it?

Therefore, if you are going to BE that tank, you should justify your slot as best you can. PLD/war is worse for a party then just taking 2 x SAM/war to both 'voke and tank. PLD/dnc's ability to raise total party damage and drastically reduce need for back-line support, their increased DoT benefits through debuffs, and their higher curing capacity which allows SAM to stay in Hasso, MNK to stay /war, everyone to WS at 100 TP instead of holding back so they don't pull it off the "tank" (who now is like super-healer on steroids)... all could be argued as being able to justify the PLD/dnc slot or not, but either way it's a **** bit closer to beneficial than PLD/war in terms of both what it provides offensively and defensively to the total party.

PLD/dnc provides higher parses for your other members (and possibly yours as well). THAT's what I suggest you parse. Total party damage PLD/war vs total party damage PLD/dnc. The 2nd is higher, and therefore your party, as a unit, kills faster. And killing faster is what it's all about. (Well, that and the hokey-pokey.)

Basically, PLD/dnc is like a super combination tank + healer + bard who actually wants to pull hate, first-vokes, and raises everyone's Hit% and cRatio simultaneously, all things that combine to let the rest of your party reach a higher capacity.

Also: stories about bad PLD/dnc players is not evidence of anything, by the way. 9/10 blue mages are geared worse than anything I've ever seen on any other DD job. Must mean BLU is crap?
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#41 Sep 27 2009 at 9:56 PM Rating: Good
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"even excalibur is lol dmg.."

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#42 Sep 27 2009 at 10:36 PM Rating: Good
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When ppl think pld and damage, they immediatly think, a PLD should not be putting up damage it should be tanking. It must be sad to be a pld because you cant multi-task......

Its not hard for a PLD to tank *and* put up damage at the same time. The damage a pld can add to the groups total damage -will- help with securing hate even better.

How this person doesnt understand getting 300-800 extra damage between WSing(average) just from the procs and adding in atones 350-750 potential that makes excalibur on pld a force to be reckon'd with, makes this person a lolperson.

Who wouldnt enjoy a pld pumping out 1k damage after 15 swings every 30+seconds depending on how often you have to cast.(<3 slow II+elegy+para(if app))
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#43Aryden, Posted: Oct 06 2009 at 1:51 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Ok now it's your turn.
#44 Oct 09 2009 at 5:04 AM Rating: Decent
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hitoseijuro wrote:
Defensive wise, you realize there isnt any difference in damage you are taking vs DD ?


Why do people think that's true? It's utter nonsense--just having a size 3 shield saves a ton of damage.

Here are some average melee (per hit) damage taken by PLDs and myself from some of my parses while leveling SAM:

(Didn't take notes on gear, but according to the prevailing theory in this thread, the amount of damage doesn't depend on how much defense/VIT these PLDs were wearing anyway.)

Aug 23 (Lv.62; Colibri)
PLD/WAR #1: 85.68 (No Defender/Berserk; no food)
PLD/WAR #2: 76.25 (Defender; no food; replacement for #1)
SAM/DRG (me): 150.71

Aug 28 (Lv.60; Puk)
PLD/WAR: 60.11 (Defender; Fish Mithkabob, Tavnazian Taco)
SAM/NIN (me): 135.25

Sep 5 (Lv.62-63; Colibri)
PLD/WAR: 86.48 (Defender x3 in 82 min; no food)
SAM/DRG (me): 136.26

Sep 11 (Lv.69; Heraldic Imp, Jnun)
PLD/WAR: 92.20 (Defender x3, Berserk x7 in 47 min; probably used acc food.)
SAM/DRG (me): 151.13

Sep 11 (Lv.69-70; Heraldic Imp, Jnun)
PLD/WAR: 73.46 (Defender x4 in 186 min; Tavnazian Taco)
SAM/THF (me): 159.21

I wore mostly normal DD stuff; NQ Haubergon, Royal Knight's Breeches, Fuma Kyahan, Ochiudo's Kote, etc. (The weirdest thing I used was Wyvern Earring, which shouldn't matter much for those damage taken numbers.) From a few quick glances, the average damage I took per hit weren't much different from other DDs without Berserk.

Make what you will of my experience as recorded by a parser. (Basically those are just the first 5 parses with PLDs in them I found.)

Personally, I'm not convinced the size 3 shield alone accounts for the difference in damage (per hit) taken between DDs and PLDs. Though not controlled tests, the data I have do seem to point to PLDs who full-time Defender and/or using defense/VIT food taking proportionally less damage (using myself as base).


Edited, Oct 9th 2009 7:09am by IfritnoItazura
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Why do people think that's true? It's utter nonsense--just having a size 3 shield saves a ton of damage.

Here are some average melee (per hit) damage taken by PLDs and myself from some of my parses while leveling SAM:

(Didn't take notes on gear, but according to the prevailing theory in this thread, the amount of damage doesn't depend on how much defense/VIT these PLDs were wearing anyway.)


He meant the difference between a DD setup and defensive setup on PLD, not the difference between PLD and some DD job (especially if said DD job is riding Berserk or doing other such self-destructive things)

As you can see in your own parses, the difference in damage taken by a PLD riding Defender and one that isn't is not that great (and Defender alone provides a whole lot more DEF points than the difference between a set of turtle gear and a set of DDing gear), compared to the difference between a PLD and you.

Edited, Oct 9th 2009 10:55am by Fynlar
#46 Oct 15 2009 at 6:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ifrit...I'm sorry but your arguement falls mighty hard and is not well based. You saw the difference in defender and non-defender pld. Not much. Shield really does make that big of a differnce. Why not have the pld go /blu and have cocoon up at all times if defense makes that much of a difference. Cocoon is a 50% boost to defense. The reason is is that as defense rises it makes a difference up to a point, but then begins to lower in value to the point of almost nothing.

So while you may see some differences between the pld and sam due to defense differences, if you boosted up the sam's defense to that of the pld you would still see a fairly large difference due to shield blocking.

I also bet that the difference in def between you and the pld was quite large in the fact that they will always have the highest protect while mages tend to just toss out protectra 2 at best for the rest, plus they have defense bonuses and usually wear gear that just naturally has some more defense on it.

So the difference in jobs seems like apples and oranges. You must look at simply the pld in different sets of gear/buffs/food to make a true analysis of the weight of defense. And actually that has been done and the vast majority sees that defense is a semi worthless stat to increase at the cost of more benficial things like shield skill or offensive stats.
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#47 Oct 16 2009 at 8:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
As you can see in your own parses, the difference in damage taken by a PLD riding Defender and one that isn't is not that great


Aug 23 (Lv.62; Colibri)
PLD/WAR #1: 85.68 (No Defender/Berserk; no food)
PLD/WAR #2: 76.25 (Defender; no food; replacement for #1)


(85.68 - 76.25) / 76.25 = 12.4%

I suppose it's not a 'great' difference, but a ~10%+ in amount of damage received per hit is still significant.


If talking about defense food and Defender vs. sushi and no Defender,

A. Sep 11 (Lv.69; Heraldic Imp, Jnun)
PLD/WAR: 92.20 (Defender x3, Berserk x7 in 47 min; probably used acc food.)
SAM/DRG (me): 151.13


B. Sep 11 (Lv.69-70; Heraldic Imp, Jnun)
PLD/WAR: 73.46 (Defender x4 in 186 min; Tavnazian Taco)
SAM/THF (me): 159.21


First, normalizing the damage received by the PLD to the damage I took to account for possibly different mix of Jnun and Imps between the two parties:
PLD A: 92.20 / 151.13 = 0.61
PLD B: 73.46 / 159.21 = 0.46

Then, calculate how much more damage PLD A took compared with PLD B:
(0.61 - 0.46) / 0.46 = 32.2%

At ~30% more damage taken per hit, that would quality as "great difference", I think.


Of course, those are not controlled tests, so one can't conclude that defense makes a big difference in damage taken per hit based on those data--but they look like a pretty good hints that defense does exactly that, at least to me.

Not to say turtle PLD is the only way to exp, but if taking less damage means the RDM or WHM can safety keep one more DD on full time Haste, it would seem like a pretty good trade off.

Personally, I've been in parties with the DD PLDs sucking up MP that could've been better used on hasting or just plain old keeping chain. And, I've been in parties with so much curing power that the PLDs might as well keep Berserk up. But, the former happened a lot more often than the latter, and by a wide margin.

* * *

Anyway, different party and camp determines what kind of setup is best, whether that's DD, turtle, or hybrid. Unless they can magically always get the camp they want and the party setup they prefer, I would think the up-and-coming PLDs should still carry both DD and defensive gear/food, and be flexible about how to play.

* * *

KWileyStyle wrote:
Why not have the pld go /blu and have cocoon up at all times if defense makes that much of a difference.


Without Utusemi, a PLD doesn't get to keep much CE, since it's being beat up constantly. Provoke from /WAR is a surefire way to generate 1800 VE every 30 seconds, while nothing from /BLU can do that with VE, AFAIK. If there is something, it's probably too expensive MP wise to use in normal exp parties.

It should be obvious that a DD PLD/WAR can generate more VE than a turtle one--both have the same JAs and Cure and Flash, but a DD PLD can generate additional VE from the better damage output.

The question comes down to what is the cost of the extra damage output--how much more damage the PLD takes--and whether the party can handle the extra curing required easily.

Then, there's the question whether going DD significantly increases the possibility of getting KO'ed (like in the OP's scenario). The whole point of going DD is to increase exp/hour, so if the PLD is getting KO'ed repeatedly and is forcing the party to stop, that PLD is doing it wrong.



Edited, Oct 16th 2009 8:12am by IfritnoItazura
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#48 Oct 16 2009 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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IfritnoItazura wrote:
Fynlar wrote:
As you can see in your own parses, the difference in damage taken by a PLD riding Defender and one that isn't is not that great


Aug 23 (Lv.62; Colibri)
PLD/WAR #1: 85.68 (No Defender/Berserk; no food)
PLD/WAR #2: 76.25 (Defender; no food; replacement for #1)


(85.68 - 76.25) / 76.25 = 12.4%

I suppose it's not a 'great' difference, but a ~10%+ in amount of damage received per hit is still significant.


If talking about defense food and Defender vs. sushi and no Defender,

A. Sep 11 (Lv.69; Heraldic Imp, Jnun)
PLD/WAR: 92.20 (Defender x3, Berserk x7 in 47 min; probably used acc food.)
SAM/DRG (me): 151.13


B. Sep 11 (Lv.69-70; Heraldic Imp, Jnun)
PLD/WAR: 73.46 (Defender x4 in 186 min; Tavnazian Taco)
SAM/THF (me): 159.21


First, normalizing the damage received by the PLD to the damage I took to account for possibly different mix of Jnun and Imps between the two parties:
PLD A: 92.20 / 151.13 = 0.61
PLD B: 73.46 / 159.21 = 0.46

Then, calculate how much more damage PLD A took compared with PLD B:
(0.61 - 0.46) / 0.46 = 32.2%

At ~30% more damage taken per hit, that would quality as "great difference", I think.


Of course, those are not controlled tests, so one can't conclude that defense makes a big difference in damage taken per hit based on those data--but they look like a pretty good hints that defense does exactly that, at least to me.

Not to say turtle PLD is the only way to exp, but if taking less damage means the RDM or WHM can safety keep one more DD on full time Haste, it would seem like a pretty good trade off.

Personally, I've been in parties with the DD PLDs sucking up MP that could've been better used on hasting or just plain old keeping chain. And, I've been in parties with so much curing power that the PLDs might as well keep Berserk up. But, the former happened a lot more often than the latter, and by a wide margin.

* * *

Anyway, different party and camp determines what kind of setup is best, whether that's DD, turtle, or hybrid. Unless they can magically always get the camp they want and the party setup they prefer, I would think the up-and-coming PLDs should still carry both DD and defensive gear/food, and be flexible about how to play.

* * *

KWileyStyle wrote:
Why not have the pld go /blu and have cocoon up at all times if defense makes that much of a difference.


Without Utusemi, a PLD doesn't get to keep much CE, since it's being beat up constantly. Provoke from /WAR is a surefire way to generate 1800 VE every 30 seconds, while nothing from /BLU can do that with VE, AFAIK. If there is something, it's probably too expensive MP wise to use in normal exp parties.

It should be obvious that a DD PLD/WAR can generate more VE than a turtle one--both have the same JAs and Cure and Flash, but a DD PLD can generate additional VE from the better damage output.

The question comes down to what is the cost of the extra damage output--how much more damage the PLD takes--and whether the party can handle the extra curing required easily.

Then, there's the question whether going DD significantly increases the possibility of getting KO'ed (like in the OP's scenario). The whole point of going DD is to increase exp/hour, so if the PLD is getting KO'ed repeatedly and is forcing the party to stop, that PLD is doing it wrong.



Edited, Oct 16th 2009 8:12am by IfritnoItazura


Again, you can't compare PLD #1 to PLD #2 unless they're on the same mobs at the same level range with everything else being equal. Of course Defender makes a small difference. But, when you're talking about saving 10 damage per hit, it's kinda meaningless. I've never had 10 hp be the reason I've survived, which is the only time it matters.

Scar, when he posted a lot here, was fond of saying that if you were fighting something above VT-IT-, you were doing it wrong. He said that about a lot of things, but the point is valid. Everyone has to gauge if the party is xp'ing in the right spot. Most people choose to over camp because 300-500 XP looks better than 200-250 XP. At least with parses, we've been able to find that faster fights at slightly less XP per fight trumps slower fights with higher XP. Overcamping and not knowing how to use one's tools are the culprit here. Not DD PLD in and of itself.

I'll admit that on IT++ mobs, defender makes more of a difference. But the closer to level appropriate mobs you go, the less of a difference defender makes. It's just one more tool to be used.
#49 Oct 17 2009 at 3:35 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd hate to be one of the other 4 people who had to put up and have their party disbanded by these two.
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#50 Oct 23 2009 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
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Well there's a lot of advantages and disadvantages of a turtle Paladin really. Conventional party setup in the past was a Tank, 3 DDs, 1 Refresher, 1 White Mage. Conventional pre-ToAU worked because a Tank could heal itself and being a turtle could reduce the amount of upkeep the White Mage would have to use on him. Hence more mp for the White Mage, and all the DDs hasted. And the mob enfeebled. It worked very well. Regardless, you still have to do the math in the end and see which one is better.

55+ ToAU setups usually consist of Brd+Healer+Tank+3dd, Rdm+4dd+Tank. Now with a Bard; you'd have two forms of Haste. The second Haste spell coming from the Healer would go on 3 dds+tank. But if the Tank goes DD gear in this situation he cuts off Haste from another DD and himself. And also no enfeebles. It's all really situational. You obviously wouldn't dd tank with only a Red Mage and 4 other DDs in your party. It's pretty hard keeping haste and cures on everyone.

Perhaps when this new expansion comes out and I get back into the game I will take the time to do the math on everything relating to DD/Turtle setup. But the math has been done before in various threads. It all depends on the setup. I personally would take a 7k/hr party that gets everyone hasted/in healthy hp/mp full on mages then a 10k/hr party that cuts out enfeebles/haste/and always on the verge of dying.

To each their own honestly. Japanese players had a really great way of partying; slow but steady. No pressure on anyone and everyone was safe from the start to finish in the party. The good thing about Final Fantasy XI is that there is so much diversity compared to other MMOs. FF14 might come out and be good for casual players and might be easy mode; but I know hardcore players like me, my friend Shamaya/Kenjiri/Sige on Asura, and many others will still continue to play FFXI until the day it dies.

If I had started Everquest when it first came out I would probably be playing that one to this day. It's still well populated. But my first MMO was FFXI. Unless a Mech Warrior type MMO that comes out. I'm with FFXI for a very long time. I hope FF14 doesn't disappoint but we'll see.

Also I'm a pro-enfeeble Paladin. I would rather go slow and steady knowing that the mob is properly enfeebled, haste is on myself and the dds and that there virtually wouldn't be any downtime. I even like the idea of taking a 10 minute break every hour or so of partying. I'm hardcore but I know when to be considerate to my other party members who may not be. ****, how many Black Mages that play today even know how the elemental wheel works on their debuffs like Burn/Rasp/etc? I loved DoTing and enfeebling mobs on mage jobs.

Edited, Oct 23rd 2009 3:14pm by Excenmille

Edited, Oct 23rd 2009 3:17pm by Excenmille
#51 Oct 23 2009 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
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I'm sorry but I found that last post kinda wierd. If you have competent players and a good party setup you can have everyone hasted, buffed, debuffed mobs and kill for 15k+ exp per hour. My wife is leveling rdm now and even at 55 can do all that and still not have to use convert every 10 minutes.

Its more about the rest of the party that will be the biggest determining factor in how you will have to gear/play. If you have really good DD's (especially if they have some form of damage mitigation through utsu or SE/TE)then the mobs will be dying fast enough that you can be a little less worried about your defense and go more DD. If your mages and you are sitting on near full mp pools (after buffs/debuffs) the whole time then you can go more DD.

This goes vice versa as well. If you have crappy DD's that cant take hits and you HAVE to tank in drawn out fights then you will probably need to limit the damage you take. If your support is cure bombing you and running out of mp then you have to go more defensive. This seems like a simple concept but it seems like people forget they can carry more than one piece of gear for a particular spot. Learn to adapt to different situations and you will be in a mch better position to succeed.

The main reason I said your post was wierd was the part about taking 7k exp really comfotably than 10k with near deaths. Your party can be a little hectic, and in fact this usually makes that game more fun. Now if you are slowing down the overall exp by going for DD than you should then this is a problem and should be addressed but if you need to turtle up just so your mages can be extremely comfortable with nicve full mp pools then you are really not doing it right.

The more I think about it I am not really sure where you were going with that comment. If you are getting more exp/hr, that means that something you are doing is more efficient and better than the other option. Whether this is mob choice, DD selection, gear choice, etc. Why in the **** would you take less exp just because its a little more hectic? You will end up in some hectic situations quite often in the game, and it seems like things like this can only benefit you later on if you have experienced them in less important situations.



Edited, Oct 23rd 2009 4:50pm by KWileyStyle
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