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I had my first "Wheres your VIT gear?!" party todayFollow

#1 Sep 21 2009 at 2:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Level 58, Wajaom Woodlands. I died once a few pulls in.

My gear:

Main: Tactician Magicians Espadon
Sub: Royal Knights Army Shield +1
Ammo: Tiphia
Head: Valkyries Mask
Neck: PCC
Ears: Spike
Body: SH
Hands: Fourth Gauntlets
Rings: Snipers
Back: Jaguar
Waist: Swift
Legs: Royal Knights Breeches
Feet: AF

Hate was no problem, I just died on the fourth pull because I couldn't get a cure off (I guess the RDM and DNC were both busy too...)

So this happens.

Edit: I apologise for the knightly and Sattva remarks in advance, I was just so infuriated by that point.

Followed by this. Then he disbanded. Then we did.

What do you make of that. As far as I was concerned when I studied how to play this job before I even unlocked it, was to go the DD route because the VIT route is olde.

Edited, Sep 21st 2009 10:52am by mikeyc
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#2 Sep 21 2009 at 3:16 AM Rating: Good
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mikeyc wrote:
What do you make of that. As far as I was concerned when I studied how to play this job before I even unlocked it, was to go the DD route because the VIT route is olde.
Well, I'll direct this to the guy complete and utter tool who thinks you're doing it wrong in DD gear (and moreover can't keep hate without it). There are volumes of reasons why it's better, I won't bring any of them up now.

Also, this and this for thinking that endgame situations and EXP situations are comparable.

And inb4 Siralin, so here's a little present for him
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#3 Sep 21 2009 at 4:16 AM Rating: Good
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Funny thing is, event at endgame VIT doesnt matter as much as it used to. Now its all Haste and emnity. Who needs VIT when you have Shadows :)

I don't know why this guy went off at you but if you are being killed so fast you could be too low for the mobs. Also, I'd be more concerned as to why the dnc and rdm did cure. Puks are annoying. They hit hard and fast and have serveal knock back attacks. All that adds up to a lot of spell interuptions. Its not easy.
#4 Sep 21 2009 at 4:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Puks at 58, thats your problem.

Go back to colibri, get back to puks at 59-60

58-60 is the best xp possible on colibris, because of the faster kills.
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#5 Sep 21 2009 at 5:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Only thing I'd do is change Sinpers to Woodsmans due to the - DEF on them, but that's just me.

Though yeah, I usually get that a lot on my PLD. I'm sick of the whole "OMG why are you wearing DD gear? You're a tank!" line. I actually had someone try to argue the -AGI on my Hauby was hurting my shield block rate.
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#6 Sep 21 2009 at 5:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah people like that are always 'fun' to deal with. There's just no getting through to them no matter how much you prove them wrong Smiley: laugh

I once got into an arguement with a PLD in an old einherjar ls over why she fulltimed 5/5 relic everywhere. She gave the usual "I'm been 75 PLD since before JP release" "I've tanked Leaping Lizzy" etc etc.

But the thing that just proved she was a total idiot... "I don't need DD gear. I have capped acc because I'm Mithra" Smiley: banghead

Edited, Sep 21st 2009 9:22am by CorLeonisX
#7 Sep 21 2009 at 5:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Had a bunch of these people in my old shell, and here and there. Honestly the only thing you can do that will leave your sanity relatively intact is ignore and keep focusing on your job; you will never change anyone's mind with just words.

Fortunately for me, along with the naysayers, I have had the pleasure of pleasantly surprising several people along the way to 75 as a DD PLD with what it is capable of.

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Puks at 58, thats your problem.


That. Your party was overhunting; just about any kind of tank would be having a headache.
#8 Sep 21 2009 at 6:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm sorry, but both you (OP) and your party were being asses.

This has nothing to do with your smart-*** remarks about how you know how to play PLD because you have 9 completely unrelated level 75's, or how you heard DD PLD was the way to go.

All that is meaningless if you dont know WHY this is the case.

You see, once you can take the damage, you can slowly start to switch in DD pieces for existing Tank pieces (Enmity, HP, Def) on your way to 75. Not saying full out DD, i'm saying Hybrid-Tank for now. That is, if you can take the damage. At level 75, most you are fighting are T's and maybe a VT every now and then. Ofcourse damage taken is going to be low in those cases and switching to a (full) DD configuration is optimal for those spots. There's no arguement there. But that is certainly not the case at level 58.

Look at yourself and the party. You were barely staying alive. More so, you actually died. Draining the party's MP, time and exp. Being able to DD better means absolutely **** if you're causing downtime.

One could argue it's the camp, because seriously, at that level the exp there is horrible. But when you're up against IT++, when you know your sword is going to do exactly ********* against them, you're best off focusing on ENMITY, HP and lastly DEFENSE over stubornly sticking to your DD setup. Or better yet, changing camps, but that wasnt a possibility i suppose.

To take what the last person said and add into it, the only thing worse than people you cant get through to no matter how much you prove them wrong, is people you cant get through to no matter how much they think they're proving you wrong.

Paladin is about tanking. But more importantly, it's about gearing up for the situation at hand. When the situation asks for more enmity and defensive gear, you switch to it. And when the situation gives you the opportunity to do more damage without neglecting your main task or getting your *** kicked, then yes, you can gear up more offensively.

It's not important exactly how much (or little) pDif gets lowered from adding DEF, or how much more enmity you could have generated through damage done in DD gear (certainly not not something existing against IT++, at level 58). If you need to gear up defensively to shave even as little as 20 damage off a hit, or to get those extra points of enmity to keep hate, you do so. Especially so if your party is complaining you're doing a terrible job at what you're doing.

Your main income of hate against IT++ is going to come from A) Provoke, B) Flash and C) Cures. You're not going to be hitting anything, and if you are, those 10 damage hits arent going to give you anywhere near the hate you want to have. PLD can DD, yes, but not at 58 and certainly not against IT++. Level 75 T-VT, Yes. Level 58 IT++, No. On top of all of that you have exactly 0 Enmity gear listed, and i'm fully aware you dont switch anything in either. Even 1 point of enmity is going to boost hate gained from Provoke, Flash and Cures by atleast 1%. Let alone 10 enmity, or 30. That's more enmity generated than you could have gotten from sword hits at that level against those monsters. Were you even eating defensive foods?

If you know something isnt working against your target, dont stubornly keep it up. Especially not when you've been proven it kills you.

Evasion might do ****, heck, even extra defense does **** if you got enough of it, but enmity works with everything. And against an IT++, you got neither the defense nor the enmity to do your job.
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#9 Sep 21 2009 at 6:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Your main income of hate against IT++ is going to come from A) Provoke, B) Flash and C) Cures. You're not going to be hitting anything, and if you are, those 10 damage hits arent going to give you anywhere near the hate you want to have. PLD can DD, yes, but not at 58 and certainly not against IT++.


I agree with your entire post except this. You can deal damage well against IT's. My Paladin at level 60 in Aydeewa was dumping 400-600 vorpals on crawlers on a full 4-hit vorpal. Sad thing though, is I find myself sticking to mostly Enmity because of the mobs i'm forced to fight. Colibri 62-64 for example. Even with 4 sword merits and +35 acc my acc is around 65%. I don't know why, but it is. That, and i'm never going to have TP to vorpal anyways.

My rule of thumb: If I can pop defender and notice a massive increase in damage reduction (Like, 30 less damage average) I will most likely stick to an enmity/defence setup.
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#10 Sep 21 2009 at 7:47 AM Rating: Decent
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I have soo many problems with dd geared paladins in exp parties. I see the arguments on paper but when the situation actually presents itself, it never proves worthy.

I ask all new paladins looking for advice in this thread to atleast, please do not keep Berserk up.
If I wanted a dd tank I would have invited a war.

#11 Sep 21 2009 at 8:35 AM Rating: Good
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Your PT really was fighting mobs that are a bit too high, they should have stuck to Colibri for a level or 2. That alone is the source of the damage-taken problem.

Beyond that your gear is fine, for a PT that targets appropriate mobs. You might want to stick with more Shield Skill for IT++ mobs, or better yet, find another PT that would rather fight the right selection of mobs for their level.

No comment on the comments about being a 75PLD or having 9 jobs leveled, neither of those means that a person knows jack **** about anything.
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#12 Sep 21 2009 at 8:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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I ask all new paladins looking for advice in this thread to atleast, please do not keep Berserk up.
If I wanted a dd tank I would have invited a war.

Are you sure that the PLDs you are complaining about are actually leaving Berserk up? I don't think any "offensive" or "spiky turtle" guide has ever recommended that. It's very common, however, for a PLD to use Berserk before a WS, then cancel it afterwards (or pseudo-cancel it with Defender), and nothing in the chat log tells you that Berserk is down.
Quote:
I have soo many problems with dd geared paladins in exp parties. I see the arguments on paper but when the situation actually presents itself, it never proves worthy.

Then you're grossly over-hunting, and a DEF+VIT PLD would be getting killed too, at least until hate shifts because Provoke and Flash aren't nearly enough to keep hate off of a competent DD.

The choice is not between two kinds of tanking. The choice is between holding hate or not holding hate, and therefore tanking or not tanking. The game has evolved in recent years towards very soft EXP targets and a bunch of additional melee power at higher levels thanks to new abilities and gear. As a result (and now that we know the hate system we can easily see why), a PLD who does not get significant additional hate beyond spells and hate tools simply cannot hold hate. While taking too much damage is a bad thing, it is a much worse thing to take no damage because you cannot hold hate. Saying, "In 2005 PLDs held hate in DEF+VIT, so you should be able to as well" completely ignores that the game has changed since then, and a tanking style that used to work now fails miserably in the face of squishier mobs and boosted DD's.

And, frankly, that tanking style never worked amazingly well to begin with. Up until about level 50 the DEF and VIT formulas still meaningfully benefit the player, but after that the return for stacking DEF and VIT is so low that stacking it is pointless. The 15% reduction in damage you get by switching out everything for DEF and VIT is unlikely to keep you alive if you were dying beforehand.

A competent party leader who wants to add some survivability to a PLD tank will ask him to stack shield gear. If a leader asks for DEF or VIT, you know right away that he has no idea what's going on.
#13 Sep 21 2009 at 6:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

I ask all new paladins looking for advice in this thread to atleast, please do not keep Berserk up.


I keep zerk up full-time at 58 on regular colibri's (I have Vorpal at 58 with 4 sword merits). That's about the only thing I can say that I do, though. Against crawlers in Aydeewa at 62 I can keep it up too (Although I have to put up Defender for Puks because they hit too hard).

If i'm not causing downtime, I don't care. I will do whatever I can to cause more damage.

Quote:
If I wanted a dd tank I would have invited a war.


Paladin is basically an extra healer when they can get a Refresh. 5mp/tick goes a long way. Paladin would do less damage then a warrior (DD tank) but they also get 3 defense traits 50+ and the ability to cure, which will actually probably save you from downtime.

I ask you: If a paladin isn't causing downtime, who cares?
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#14 Sep 21 2009 at 7:33 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Are you sure that the PLDs you are complaining about are actually leaving Berserk up? I don't think any "offensive" or "spiky turtle" guide has ever recommended that. It's very common, however, for a PLD to use Berserk before a WS, then cancel it afterwards (or pseudo-cancel it with Defender), and nothing in the chat log tells you that Berserk is down.


That's what I did. I never got any sort of "... are you keeping zerk up?" complaint, despite the fact that on occasion, I *did* forget to take Zerk off.

The funny thing is, most of my best Vorpal Blades on lolibri/imps always happened when Zerk was down. Sure, the overall average of the Vorpals w/ Zerk&food might have been higher, but nearly all of my highest Vorpals were unbuffed ones (not counting BRD buffs). Never really wrapped my finger around that one. -_-

Edited, Sep 21st 2009 11:34pm by Fynlar
#15 Sep 22 2009 at 1:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
Are you sure that the PLDs you are complaining about are actually leaving Berserk up? I don't think any "offensive" or "spiky turtle" guide has ever recommended that. It's very common, however, for a PLD to use Berserk before a WS, then cancel it afterwards (or pseudo-cancel it with Defender), and nothing in the chat log tells you that Berserk is down.


That's what I did. I never got any sort of "... are you keeping zerk up?" complaint, despite the fact that on occasion, I *did* forget to take Zerk off.

The funny thing is, most of my best Vorpal Blades on lolibri/imps always happened when Zerk was down. Sure, the overall average of the Vorpals w/ Zerk&food might have been higher, but nearly all of my highest Vorpals were unbuffed ones (not counting BRD buffs). Never really wrapped my finger around that one. -_-

Edited, Sep 21st 2009 11:34pm by Fynlar
Higher sample size will reveal more extreme highs/lows :o

Also I find it funny that nobody complains when you're holding hate like a ... well like a tank, but one accident, Paladin dies.

/check
/check
/check
/check

"What the ****, no wonder you died! Wheres your vit?!"

I did get that once I think, it's not until you die that people see a problem, and when I turtled up on request... Byebye exp. This really shouldn't even be a question anymore and I can't beleive so many people, like Niklz, still think that Paladins need to turtle.

Oy vey :/

Edited, Sep 22nd 2009 9:27am by LordFaramir
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#16 Sep 22 2009 at 1:58 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Higher sample size will reveal more extreme highs/lows :o


This was through the course of numerous parties and levels though, and I was paying good attention to my Vorpal numbers because I wanted to have a good justification for actually using Vorpal and a DD set, instead of "just turtle and go with spirits within" like so many people in game had advised me to do. Like I say, I'm sure my average was higher with zerk/food. It just seemed so weird that every time I noticed "hey, that's a new record high on vorpal!" it was always when zerk was down, and usually food too (due to running out; stupid lolibri. It was only meat jerky I was using, but that's still something ;;). You'd think that I'd be hitting the record highs with zerk on >_> Meh.

Zerk or not, I did manage to wow quite a few people with Vorpals on the way up to 75, so I'm satisfied nonetheless. That is, whenever those pesky birds allowed me to use it. I had a much more fun time with imps as far as DD play goes. Amnesia sucks, but at least it doesn't kill your TP like Tickle does.

Edited, Sep 22nd 2009 6:00am by Fynlar
#17 Sep 22 2009 at 3:53 AM Rating: Good
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The ignorant Paladins never disappear sadly :(

At 75 I still have people criticising me for using dedicated Atonement spam builds (including omg a Hauby +1) whereas some other Paladins in my LS like to fulltime enmity and Flash every 30 seconds, praying to keep hate (and naturally failing).

Doesn't help as shown above that Paladin is such an easy job to tank on at a basic level that you get idiots like those who think they know everything because they can tank endgame. Most endgame mobs are not challenging at all... something that needs to be addressed in my opinion, but that's offtopic.

I had a very similar experience to yours once at 66 Imps (why does this always happen when overcamping?) when I died due to getting a 2nd Imp on us midfight and I only died with 10% left on the second or so. The party leader who was also a Paladin, bragged that he not only killed Genbu, but had KOENIG HANDSCHUHS and so I should listen to his advice and go and buy a Knightly Mantle etc. When I declined, he kicked me for "not having enough VIT" and said he'd get a "real Paladin".

... 30 minutes later he sent me a /tell asking if I wanted to party again and he was only messing around before, and I just cheerfully replied that I didn't have enough VIT for him :)
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#18 Sep 22 2009 at 5:41 AM Rating: Default
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well, i think you are doing ok as DD build, it just personally thinking, you guys shall do lesser colibra rather than puk, because it seem the party you are in can't kill puk as fast enough without drainining too much cure or mp.

Normally u can use DD build for party or xp or lv up in ToAu area, the reason is that the mob are weak, less hp and die faster. So wearing def gear isn't going to help or max output. Thats why u shall wear full DD gear to max output.

However if u fighting something that hit hard, take long time to kill, or the battle is dragging, def or VIT build work better, but... u only need that if u are ever for some reason party choose to lv off in CoP area, or u fighting something that is not suppost to fight on your lv range.



Edited, Sep 22nd 2009 1:42pm by lichinto
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#19 Sep 22 2009 at 7:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sadly these guys are everywhere. My sky last night wouldn't let me tank because I had on dd gear. Boy were they surprised when I was tanking without any help from sata. Not only did I actually have haste and dd gear on...I used my hp down hp up macros! Ah it felt good seeing the leader say "hey guys sata me yo" while I just kept on tanking ;)
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#20 Sep 22 2009 at 7:19 AM Rating: Good
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Eh, like every other job, **** is situational. No matter what job you play in an exp party, your role is always the same. Help your party get as much exp as possible. If you are a PLD and you can DD tank and make that happen, sweet, more power to you, but if you cant, turtle up, or find some comfortable middle ground that works for you. If you aren't running around with more clothes and accessories than a mexican flea market, you are doing it wrong.
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#21 Sep 22 2009 at 8:25 AM Rating: Decent
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hmm.. i think a common reason as to why that whole aregument occurs is this... the actual term "dd pld." It is not fair to Paladins to be labeld as either Turtle or Damage Dealer types. i think the fact that you take you won approach to the job is more than ok... I did the same thing. only thing i woulda changed is the -def on the rings... anyway.. the point is this.. You are allowed to playe the job however u see fit... i like to have a nice mix of HP+ MP+ STR+ and ACC+ plus gear... i ignore my vit gear because i get it through food, and i play almost exclusively as /rdm (stonesking, phlanx, regen, protect IV ftw)... so i dont need to stack def and vit because half the time i take zer0 damage, and the other half of the time when buffs are down i stack shield gear and reprisal to get them back up.. some ppl prefer the security of Vitality... other ppl like dealing as much damage as possible... and their in lies the fault. Paladins are not DD's but ppl like to gear them to deal as much damage as possible... in your case at the expense of vit and def. Damage = hate. hate= effective tanking...

/end rant
#22 Sep 22 2009 at 8:36 AM Rating: Good
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and i menat to add in my last post: A standing ovation to you sir, KojiroSoma... you said exactly what i wanted to lol
#23 Sep 22 2009 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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lichinto wrote:
Normally u can use DD build for party or xp or lv up in ToAu area, the reason is that the mob are weak, less hp and die faster. So wearing def gear isn't going to help or max output. Thats why u shall wear full DD gear to max output.


Actually, the main reason DD works (at any level) is the diminishing return of Defense and Vitality. At level 1, 5 VIT is a HUGE deal. At level 75, 5 VIT is meaningless. This is accounted for by a few things: It's a smaller increase when you already have higher VIT, the mob's strength doesn't increase at the same rate as ours does simply because they don't have access to gear, and any mob of a higher level will have a minimum pDif that will literally stop any decrease in damage after a certain amount of VIT/Def is reached. These coupled together mean that at 75, Adaman gear against XP mobs will rarely result in less damage taken than the Haubergeon will (hit for hit). A level 85-90 mob still has enough native strength that you'll see an decrease in damage taken, but those Colibri are close enough to being min'd out that you won't on them.

lichinto wrote:
However if u fighting something that hit hard, take long time to kill, or the battle is dragging, def or VIT build work better, but... u only need that if u are ever for some reason party choose to lv off in CoP area, or u fighting something that is not suppost to fight on your lv range.


Which means you're really better off served going somewhere else and waiting a few levels before coming back.
#24 Sep 24 2009 at 5:12 AM Rating: Good
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Eat dorado sushi, sub dancer, and don't overcamp. If you're on birds, use the cheapest sushi you can afford to spam (dorado is best), and alternate aspir samba/drain samba as needed.

Every single PLD I've convinced to sub DNC had hated it for about 30min until they got the hang of how you hold hate in a party as /dnc, and then every single one has made the swap permanent and never gone back to /war. Seriously, try it.

In fact, don't just try it, parse it. See the difference. You will easily double or triple the amount of HP you are able to restore, making mage MP pools last far, far longer while simultaneously lowering the monster's evasion or defense for your primary DD's to kill it even faster.

If you have to Defender + tacos, then you need to move to a new camp. Not argue about why it's supposed to be better to DD (while you are busy dying).

So next time get a good camp (or a good party that doesn't over-camp), then go change subs to dancer and eat some dorado and tell your mages not to worry about curing you; they can literally DC and you can solo an exp mob (slowly) without them if you must. (I've done this when my party tried to take Fowling Earring NM even though I told them they were too low. They tried it without me after unsyncing and I watched them all die since I was the sync target and too low to help. I soloed two separate EXP mobs until one of my WHM friends came and raised my party.) Incidentally, since I'm talking about lowbie bird camp in my story, let me just point out that /dnc lets you spend TP as you get it, so it's far BETTER on colibri rather than worse as people tend to think. When you can't save TP to 100%, what good is a WS you will never use? Spend it every 25 and make it worth something.

My recommendations:
PLD 10-39 = /war (Turtle time. VIT actually matters. DEF food wins.)
PLD 40-73 = /dnc (Don't over-camp. DD gear and Sushi. F*** war sub.)
PLD 74-75 = /nin (Dual-Wield swords and go all-out DD. Pizza is yummy.)
PLD Endgame (Sub whatever is needed. Food varies based on sub and target.)
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#25 Sep 25 2009 at 12:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Hehe, if I want to dd in a party I bust out the Martial Sword (G. sword). :P

I really prefer not to unless we're fighting imps cause then I have spinning slash...

But, that's off topic. When I tank i use defense and vit stuff, with a little accuracy added in. I have plenty of attack and str to hit hard... (merited STR, critical, and sword skill) I ride provoke and flash timers, and cure others in the rare occurence they take hate. When it's time for weapon skill, I just macro in my WS gear and let 'er rip, sometimes getting about 400 for vorpal blade. Not on Colibris though. I don't stack enmity gear honestly, I think it's pretty stupid to sacrifice stats for enmity....

Anyway you're fine Mikeyc I've partied with you a lot recently and you are a great paladin as I see it. Only recommendation I have is to use the haubergeon instead of scorpion harness. Paladin evades like a pile of bricks. The Attack+10 and STR+5 are extremely helpful. I'm sure you were just using S harness cause you were at 58, but just checkin. :P

-Stephano.

Edited, Sep 25th 2009 4:28am by StephisaMAN
#26 Sep 25 2009 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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StephisaMAN wrote:
Hehe, if I want to dd in a party I bust out the Martial Sword (G. sword). :P

I really prefer not to unless we're fighting imps cause then I have spinning slash...


Counting on WS's for imps is foolhardy at best. Sure, you can do it, but when you get Amnesia'd, you're stuck with nothing to show for it. Also, that's a little before the levels that a Joyeuse kicks in, and a Joyeuse will destroy any GS combo for PLD. Especially when you couple it with the defense that the Shield provides.

StephisaMAN wrote:
But, that's off topic. When I tank i use defense and vit stuff, with a little accuracy added in. I have plenty of attack and str to hit hard... (merited STR, critical, and sword skill) I ride provoke and flash timers, and cure others in the rare occurence they take hate. When it's time for weapon skill, I just macro in my WS gear and let 'er rip, sometimes getting about 400 for vorpal blade. Not on Colibris though. I don't stack enmity gear honestly, I think it's pretty stupid to sacrifice stats for enmity....


For gear full timed, I agree with you. For XP parties, you usually can survive off the enmity of DD + Curing. But, when you hit end game and start tanking "the big stuff," having macros specifically for different abilities and maxing out your enmity through gear for specific actions really is the way to go.

StephisaMAN wrote:
Only recommendation I have is to use the haubergeon instead of scorpion harness.


This doesn't compute with Defense and Vitality gear... If you're going with a Hauby, you should really complement it with a solid DD set, as well. But, ultimately, if you're having fun AND doing your job as tank, you're set.
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