I had my first "Wheres your VIT gear?!" party todayFollow

Level 58, Wajaom Woodlands. I died once a few pulls in.

My gear:

Main: Tactician Magicians Espadon
Sub: Royal Knights Army Shield +1
Ammo: Tiphia
Head: Valkyries Mask
Neck: PCC
Ears: Spike
Body: SH
Hands: Fourth Gauntlets
Rings: Snipers
Back: Jaguar
Waist: Swift
Legs: Royal Knights Breeches
Feet: AF

Hate was no problem, I just died on the fourth pull because I couldn't get a cure off (I guess the RDM and DNC were both busy too...)

So this happens.

Edit: I apologise for the knightly and Sattva remarks in advance, I was just so infuriated by that point.

Followed by this. Then he disbanded. Then we did.

What do you make of that. As far as I was concerned when I studied how to play this job before I even unlocked it, was to go the DD route because the VIT route is olde.

Edited, Sep 21st 2009 10:52am by mikeyc

Funny thing is, event at endgame VIT doesnt matter as much as it used to. Now its all Haste and emnity. Who needs VIT when you have Shadows :)

I don't know why this guy went off at you but if you are being killed so fast you could be too low for the mobs. Also, I'd be more concerned as to why the dnc and rdm did cure. Puks are annoying. They hit hard and fast and have serveal knock back attacks. All that adds up to a lot of spell interuptions. Its not easy.

Only thing I'd do is change Sinpers to Woodsmans due to the - DEF on them, but that's just me.

Though yeah, I usually get that a lot on my PLD. I'm sick of the whole "OMG why are you wearing DD gear? You're a tank!" line. I actually had someone try to argue the -AGI on my Hauby was hurting my shield block rate.

Had a bunch of these people in my old shell, and here and there. Honestly the only thing you can do that will leave your sanity relatively intact is ignore and keep focusing on your job; you will never change anyone's mind with just words.

Fortunately for me, along with the naysayers, I have had the pleasure of pleasantly surprising several people along the way to 75 as a DD PLD with what it is capable of.



That. Your party was overhunting; just about any kind of tank would be having a headache.

I agree with your entire post except this. You can deal damage well against IT's. My Paladin at level 60 in Aydeewa was dumping 400-600 vorpals on crawlers on a full 4-hit vorpal. Sad thing though, is I find myself sticking to mostly Enmity because of the mobs i'm forced to fight. Colibri 62-64 for example. Even with 4 sword merits and +35 acc my acc is around 65%. I don't know why, but it is. That, and i'm never going to have TP to vorpal anyways.

My rule of thumb: If I can pop defender and notice a massive increase in damage reduction (Like, 30 less damage average) I will most likely stick to an enmity/defence setup.

Your PT really was fighting mobs that are a bit too high, they should have stuck to Colibri for a level or 2. That alone is the source of the damage-taken problem.

Beyond that your gear is fine, for a PT that targets appropriate mobs. You might want to stick with more Shield Skill for IT++ mobs, or better yet, find another PT that would rather fight the right selection of mobs for their level.

No comment on the comments about being a 75PLD or having 9 jobs leveled, neither of those means that a person knows jack sh*t about anything.

I keep zerk up full-time at 58 on regular colibri's (I have Vorpal at 58 with 4 sword merits). That's about the only thing I can say that I do, though. Against crawlers in Aydeewa at 62 I can keep it up too (Although I have to put up Defender for Puks because they hit too hard).

If i'm not causing downtime, I don't care. I will do whatever I can to cause more damage.



Paladin is basically an extra healer when they can get a Refresh. 5mp/tick goes a long way. Paladin would do less damage then a warrior (DD tank) but they also get 3 defense traits 50+ and the ability to cure, which will actually probably save you from downtime.

I ask you: If a paladin isn't causing downtime, who cares?

Higher sample size will reveal more extreme highs/lows :o

Also I find it funny that nobody complains when you're holding hate like a ... well like a tank, but one accident, Paladin dies.

/check
/check
/check
/check

"What the hell, no wonder you died! Wheres your vit?!"

I did get that once I think, it's not until you die that people see a problem, and when I turtled up on request... Byebye exp. This really shouldn't even be a question anymore and I can't beleive so many people, like Niklz, still think that Paladins need to turtle.

Oy vey :/

Edited, Sep 22nd 2009 9:27am by LordFaramir

The ignorant Paladins never disappear sadly :(

At 75 I still have people criticising me for using dedicated Atonement spam builds (including omg a Hauby +1) whereas some other Paladins in my LS like to fulltime enmity and Flash every 30 seconds, praying to keep hate (and naturally failing).

Doesn't help as shown above that Paladin is such an easy job to tank on at a basic level that you get idiots like those who think they know everything because they can tank endgame. Most endgame mobs are not challenging at all... something that needs to be addressed in my opinion, but that's offtopic.

I had a very similar experience to yours once at 66 Imps (why does this always happen when overcamping?) when I died due to getting a 2nd Imp on us midfight and I only died with 10% left on the second or so. The party leader who was also a Paladin, bragged that he not only killed Genbu, but had KOENIG HANDSCHUHS and so I should listen to his advice and go and buy a Knightly Mantle etc. When I declined, he kicked me for "not having enough VIT" and said he'd get a "real Paladin".

... 30 minutes later he sent me a /tell asking if I wanted to party again and he was only messing around before, and I just cheerfully replied that I didn't have enough VIT for him :)

Sadly these guys are everywhere. My sky last night wouldn't let me tank because I had on dd gear. Boy were they surprised when I was tanking without any help from sata. Not only did I actually have haste and dd gear on...I used my hp down hp up macros! Ah it felt good seeing the leader say "hey guys sata me yo" while I just kept on tanking ;)

hmm.. i think a common reason as to why that whole aregument occurs is this... the actual term "dd pld." It is not fair to Paladins to be labeld as either Turtle or Damage Dealer types. i think the fact that you take you won approach to the job is more than ok... I did the same thing. only thing i woulda changed is the -def on the rings... anyway.. the point is this.. You are allowed to playe the job however u see fit... i like to have a nice mix of HP+ MP+ STR+ and ACC+ plus gear... i ignore my vit gear because i get it through food, and i play almost exclusively as /rdm (stonesking, phlanx, regen, protect IV ftw)... so i dont need to stack def and vit because half the time i take zer0 damage, and the other half of the time when buffs are down i stack shield gear and reprisal to get them back up.. some ppl prefer the security of Vitality... other ppl like dealing as much damage as possible... and their in lies the fault. Paladins are not DD's but ppl like to gear them to deal as much damage as possible... in your case at the expense of vit and def. Damage = hate. hate= effective tanking...

/end rant

Actually, the main reason DD works (at any level) is the diminishing return of Defense and Vitality. At level 1, 5 VIT is a HUGE deal. At level 75, 5 VIT is meaningless. This is accounted for by a few things: It's a smaller increase when you already have higher VIT, the mob's strength doesn't increase at the same rate as ours does simply because they don't have access to gear, and any mob of a higher level will have a minimum pDif that will literally stop any decrease in damage after a certain amount of VIT/Def is reached. These coupled together mean that at 75, Adaman gear against XP mobs will rarely result in less damage taken than the Haubergeon will (hit for hit). A level 85-90 mob still has enough native strength that you'll see an decrease in damage taken, but those Colibri are close enough to being min'd out that you won't on them.



Which means you're really better off served going somewhere else and waiting a few levels before coming back.

Hehe, if I want to dd in a party I bust out the Martial Sword (G. sword). :P

I really prefer not to unless we're fighting imps cause then I have spinning slash...

But, that's off topic. When I tank i use defense and vit stuff, with a little accuracy added in. I have plenty of attack and str to hit hard... (merited STR, critical, and sword skill) I ride provoke and flash timers, and cure others in the rare occurence they take hate. When it's time for weapon skill, I just macro in my WS gear and let 'er rip, sometimes getting about 400 for vorpal blade. Not on Colibris though. I don't stack enmity gear honestly, I think it's pretty stupid to sacrifice stats for enmity....

Anyway you're fine Mikeyc I've partied with you a lot recently and you are a great paladin as I see it. Only recommendation I have is to use the haubergeon instead of scorpion harness. Paladin evades like a pile of bricks. The Attack+10 and STR+5 are extremely helpful. I'm sure you were just using S harness cause you were at 58, but just checkin. :P

-Stephano.

Edited, Sep 25th 2009 4:28am by StephisaMAN

I don't have a joyeuse though. :(

You are right about the amnesia thing also I suppose. But you know, if I eat pizza or sushi I hit pretty dang hard too, just slow. Just not much compared to ACTUAL dd jobs that use great sword. But, I do take dd'ing quite seriously, and use a full dd set when I do.

martial sword, pole grip or mythril grip +1, olibanum sachet, walahra turban (not below 75..) chiv chain, minuet earring, fowling earring, haubergeon, dusk gloves, garrulous ring, ecphoria ring, amemet mantle, life belt with +2 STR aug, valor breeches, and heroic boots. That's just my dd set, but I macro in a lot of STR+ (around +50) for weapon skilling.



I meant for mikey since he's goin dd style :P

Edited, Sep 25th 2009 7:37pm by StephisaMAN

Okay, but why is that beneficial? Why doesn't your party have a healer that can keep up with healing? Of course, cures are great for hate control, but damage-dealing is great for hate control too, and has the additional advantage of speeding up the fight. /DNC isn't simply a much inferior DD sub compared to /WAR; it actually gives you less damage output than you'd have with no subjob at all, since you eat tp to cure.

And a quick look at the enmity tables shows that cures, while awesome for sustained hate control, take too long to build proper hate for the short fights that should be happening while EXPing. Provoke, for all its flaws, is great for grabbing hate quickly, especially when coupled with an initial weaponskill (which you also don't get when /DNC).

Frankly, I'd suggest that if mobs are surviving long enough for a tank to hold hate with cures, then something is wrong with that EXPing situation. You specifically say "don't overcamp," but a party that isn't overcamping shouldn't be needing what /DNC offers. If you have time to hold hate with cures, do double or triple the number of cures, and meaningfully debuff the mob, then the fights are lasting way too long, and you're either overcamping or just plain terrible. If anything, /DNC looks like it gets more viable the more you are overcamping, because all those extra cures will be needed to keep you alive, and fights that drag on will actually offer enough time to build meaningful hate from curing.

*edit* As an aside, no PLD should be eating sushi. A properly-geared PLD should never need more than pizza on an EXP-level mob.

Edited, Sep 25th 2009 10:00pm by Caesura

Meh, imps are not that bad. I get to WS them a helluva lot more often than I get to WS colibri.

Amnesia just delays WS usage, it doesn't kill it entirely.

GEAR MACROS!! "everything is situational" know when to use DD gear and know when to use turtle gear. Its all about knowing when to use each set. That is what makes a good pld. Just be prepared for any situation, which includes having a turtle set. DD build is pointless if you are wasting the mages' mp, therefore creating excess downtime, or even dieing, creating more excess downtime. Know which setup is more beneficial to the pt to maximize exp/hour. Just because dd pld is the modern tanking strategy does not mean it works in every situation. I am not for or against dd pld or turtle pld, I am all for knowing how to play pld and that includes both. Know your mob, know your camp, know your party, most importantly... know your job.

You can have a one healer party who focuses on Haste, Dia, Regen, and occasionally pops a cure now and then. Let's assume that amazing mages can do all that while main-healing and they can make it seem easy, but hell I don't carry one of those in my back pocket. I specifically make it so that random mages have no excuse to let haste drop or not to start off with dia because they are resting. I submit that both those things being consistent and constant will improve kill speed markedly. When your mage stands up to dia at less than 100% mob health because they were taking a knee, you've lost a lot of DoT, potentially. If they never have to take a knee because you are self-sufficient and they have enough refresh to cover buff/debuff cycle, damage goes up.

/dnc increases the damage output of your ENTIRE front-line. You are mistaken that it does nothing to increase kill speed. On a typical monster you land at least 2 steps. That's one to start, one at 15 seconds later. You may get a 3rd off if your fights take longer than ~30 seconds, as well (and that's honestly more realistic at these levels).

Quickstep: First one is like giving +8ACC to your party, which means 4% higher hit rate, which is a pretty hefty increase to DoT right there. You could do the 2nd one and push that up by 4ACC again, or you can possibly get more effect by making your 2nd step be...
Boxstep: Lowers enemy defense by 5%. Since people usually WS toward the 2nd half of the mob's life, this is a perfect preceding debuff. On Greater Colibri, they have DEF of 330 or so. Unfortunately I don't have stats for regular Colibri, but 5% of 330 is about 17. So now you have given your party 8ACC 17ATK (less ATK for the lower level ones, but you get the idea). These debuffs last for 1min and the 2nd can be applied 15 seconds after the first. If the fight takes longer than 30 seconds, you can add another 4ACC buff to the front line (you should generally use alternating steps), at least after level 60. Before 60 you just do multiple Quicksteps and keep stacking the ACC bonus instead (which is still fantastic).

My point: that's your whole melee front-line getting buffed!



Ridiculous on a number of levels. Here's why:
1) If colibri is the target, you never WS as /war (or almost never) because they steal TP.

2) Regardless of colibri or not colibri, nobody makes you "eat TP" just because you are /dnc. You get the choice. Ask yourself, "Am I taking too much damage?" Yes: spin some TP out and save your mage some MP if you want. No: store TP and blow it on WS if you want. Note both options are your choice.

3) Due to /dnc Samba effect, you and your mages need cure less HP over time. And after 60, due to /dnc ACC bonus, you are getting TP faster. What does putting these together do? It means it's even easier and safer to WS as /dnc than as /war... But then again (of course), /war doesn't have the choice to do anything else. That sucks. Even before 60, the effect of Quickstep alone is enough to raise your TP gain, and everyone else's (!!).

4) Defender is crap. Perma-berserk is... pretty foolish in most cases. That means /war is offering you a big fat DA bonus, ATK bonus of 10, and a few meaningless points of STR. It should deal more damage then, right? No, because remember what I said earlier: you have given your party 8ACC 17ATK (minus whatever due to lower level targets). And after 60 there's a 10(!) ACC bonus for you personally. I therefore submit you will deal MORE damage /dnc than /war, and more importantly: so will your whole party.

5) All these benefits are yours, and in addition you are take less MP to support while offering greater benefits to both front and back line (debuffs and MP savings, respectively).

/war is /fail in comparison. The only exception being: You are in a party where you can leave berserk up, such as with a PL. Then /dnc is not going to keep up.

Anyway, as long as you aren't a stupid /dnc player who sits on TP, you're going to do more for your party with that sub than with the benefits that any other sub can offer at these levels (in typical parties).

Don't believe me? PARSE it. Seriously, go change subs and level sync for an hour and parse it. Then change again and repeat for another hour. I already have and I already know which works better (and why). Now you try...

To the other posters:

As far as the pizza vs sushi thing that the other poster brought up, I agree pizza is the way to go. I only mentioned sushi specifically because the OP was talking Wajaom, and so I therefore assume the target is birds. Pizza is difficult to recommend there.

As far as the /dnc 'voke thing goes. The provoke is 5/6 of a regular provoke. If that isn't good enough for you to hold hate along with flash and your other tools, then /war isn't going to do a damn thing to help you. If you are really bothered by the 5/6 thing, spectral jig coincidentally happens to produce the remaining 1/6, is instant, costs 0TP, and can be used every 30 seconds just like Animated Flourish can (/dnc 'voke). The provoke argument is an argument of ignorance. /dnc higher rate of cures is going to equate to more hate held than /war's lack of cures. Yes, you hold hate better, not worse. You hold hate better.

DEF/VIT argument: It's silly and with /dnc it's a total moot point anyway since you have an endless well-spring of cures to draw from. Go all-out DD gear and raise DoT in this manner. I'm talking Sentinel Shield, the works. Just rock as much DD gear as you can and put out the highest DoT possible. It's best for your hate-holding and your EXP/HR, which is really the bottom line. That said, certainly you should macro in enmity for Flash, cures, 'vokes, etc. If you don't want to blink, there are options in non-blink slots so there's really no excuse on this one. The pointlessness of worrying about DEF is why we don't list /war Defense Bonus as an advantage to that sub, just as /dnc Evasion Bonus is not listed as an advantage either. The only defensive boost that the two of them give which matters is /dnc Subtle Blow, and only if it's enough to make enough of a difference that you take less TP moves over time. That's too fine a hair to cut and so even though I support the sub, I prefer to leave that particular claim out.

I keep getting rated down and that's unfortunate since the information is both important and correct.

Allright, I agree with what you are saying that def/vit does not make a noticeable difference in damage taken. I use a haste gear macro, shield skill +, enmity, hp+, and dd/tp gear macros (ws macros kind of irrelevant here).

When I would tank in exp parties, I would tp in dd setup, macro in enmity for JAs FLash, and voke. I would also macro in hp+ and enmity for cures. If for whatever reason, I start taking more damage than I should, I would switch to shield skill+, hp+, and spam cures.

I obviously misused the term "turtle" because I was not thinking of def/vit when I said turtle gear. Shield blocks will prevent the most damage hands down. No amount of def/vit can compare to shield skill.

My apologies for totally getting the points of the argument messed up.

def/vit = practically worthless, if you are taking too much damage, you should reevaluate your party setup, camp, support, etc... I had no problems keeping hate and staying alive with the macro sets I mentioned above and none of them are geared towards def/vit

I was just trying to emphasize the benefits of using a variety of gear sets rather than being limited to one gear set.

Edited, Sep 27th 2009 4:57am by TheBlackFrankWhite

"even excalibur is lol dmg.."

/thread

He meant the difference between a DD setup and defensive setup on PLD, not the difference between PLD and some DD job (especially if said DD job is riding Berserk or doing other such self-destructive things)

As you can see in your own parses, the difference in damage taken by a PLD riding Defender and one that isn't is not that great (and Defender alone provides a whole lot more DEF points than the difference between a set of turtle gear and a set of DDing gear), compared to the difference between a PLD and you.

Edited, Oct 9th 2009 10:55am by Fynlar

Aug 23 (Lv.62; Colibri)
PLD/WAR #1: 85.68 (No Defender/Berserk; no food)
PLD/WAR #2: 76.25 (Defender; no food; replacement for #1)

(85.68 - 76.25) / 76.25 = 12.4%

I suppose it's not a 'great' difference, but a ~10%+ in amount of damage received per hit is still significant.


If talking about defense food and Defender vs. sushi and no Defender,

A. Sep 11 (Lv.69; Heraldic Imp, Jnun)
PLD/WAR: 92.20 (Defender x3, Berserk x7 in 47 min; probably used acc food.)
SAM/DRG (me): 151.13

B. Sep 11 (Lv.69-70; Heraldic Imp, Jnun)
PLD/WAR: 73.46 (Defender x4 in 186 min; Tavnazian Taco)
SAM/THF (me): 159.21

First, normalizing the damage received by the PLD to the damage I took to account for possibly different mix of Jnun and Imps between the two parties:
PLD A: 92.20 / 151.13 = 0.61
PLD B: 73.46 / 159.21 = 0.46

Then, calculate how much more damage PLD A took compared with PLD B:
(0.61 - 0.46) / 0.46 = 32.2%

At ~30% more damage taken per hit, that would quality as "great difference", I think.


Of course, those are not controlled tests, so one can't conclude that defense makes a big difference in damage taken per hit based on those data--but they look like a pretty good hints that defense does exactly that, at least to me.

Not to say turtle PLD is the only way to exp, but if taking less damage means the RDM or WHM can safety keep one more DD on full time Haste, it would seem like a pretty good trade off.

Personally, I've been in parties with the DD PLDs sucking up MP that could've been better used on hasting or just plain old keeping chain. And, I've been in parties with so much curing power that the PLDs might as well keep Berserk up. But, the former happened a lot more often than the latter, and by a wide margin.

* * *

Anyway, different party and camp determines what kind of setup is best, whether that's DD, turtle, or hybrid. Unless they can magically always get the camp they want and the party setup they prefer, I would think the up-and-coming PLDs should still carry both DD and defensive gear/food, and be flexible about how to play.

* * *



Without Utusemi, a PLD doesn't get to keep much CE, since it's being beat up constantly. Provoke from /WAR is a surefire way to generate 1800 VE every 30 seconds, while nothing from /BLU can do that with VE, AFAIK. If there is something, it's probably too expensive MP wise to use in normal exp parties.

It should be obvious that a DD PLD/WAR can generate more VE than a turtle one--both have the same JAs and Cure and Flash, but a DD PLD can generate additional VE from the better damage output.

The question comes down to what is the cost of the extra damage output--how much more damage the PLD takes--and whether the party can handle the extra curing required easily.

Then, there's the question whether going DD significantly increases the possibility of getting KO'ed (like in the OP's scenario). The whole point of going DD is to increase exp/hour, so if the PLD is getting KO'ed repeatedly and is forcing the party to stop, that PLD is doing it wrong.



Edited, Oct 16th 2009 8:12am by IfritnoItazura

I'd hate to be one of the other 4 people who had to put up and have their party disbanded by these two.

I'm sorry but I found that last post kinda wierd. If you have competent players and a good party setup you can have everyone hasted, buffed, debuffed mobs and kill for 15k+ exp per hour. My wife is leveling rdm now and even at 55 can do all that and still not have to use convert every 10 minutes.

Its more about the rest of the party that will be the biggest determining factor in how you will have to gear/play. If you have really good DD's (especially if they have some form of damage mitigation through utsu or SE/TE)then the mobs will be dying fast enough that you can be a little less worried about your defense and go more DD. If your mages and you are sitting on near full mp pools (after buffs/debuffs) the whole time then you can go more DD.

This goes vice versa as well. If you have crappy DD's that cant take hits and you HAVE to tank in drawn out fights then you will probably need to limit the damage you take. If your support is cure bombing you and running out of mp then you have to go more defensive. This seems like a simple concept but it seems like people forget they can carry more than one piece of gear for a particular spot. Learn to adapt to different situations and you will be in a mch better position to succeed.

The main reason I said your post was wierd was the part about taking 7k exp really comfotably than 10k with near deaths. Your party can be a little hectic, and in fact this usually makes that game more fun. Now if you are slowing down the overall exp by going for DD than you should then this is a problem and should be addressed but if you need to turtle up just so your mages can be extremely comfortable with nicve full mp pools then you are really not doing it right.

The more I think about it I am not really sure where you were going with that comment. If you are getting more exp/hr, that means that something you are doing is more efficient and better than the other option. Whether this is mob choice, DD selection, gear choice, etc. Why in the hell would you take less exp just because its a little more hectic? You will end up in some hectic situations quite often in the game, and it seems like things like this can only benefit you later on if you have experienced them in less important situations.



Edited, Oct 23rd 2009 4:50pm by KWileyStyle