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Is Machi +1 really that greatFollow

#1 Mar 24 2009 at 5:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I've been using espadon and company instead and been holding hate pretty well. I only lose it with imps that spam deafaning tantra & abrasive tantra. Or with a SAM that is showing off. So the question is is Machi +1 really that bad **** that i have to get it? (I'm almost 75)
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#2 Mar 24 2009 at 5:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's decent at 75 if you don't have Atonement or you can't hit the mob that you're tanking. Don't use it in exp on the way to 75.
#3 Mar 24 2009 at 5:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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For XP, no, it's not. You'll be better off with DD swords. The -accuracy really makes it a pain.

For kiting mobs, it will do a LOT more good for you. Since you're not swinging, you have to rely on JA's and Cure spam to hold hate on you. At this point, the enmity is useful.

I didn't have one crafted until I hit 75. And I didn't regret it.
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#4 Mar 24 2009 at 6:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thanks Dracoth, I've read ur DD Pld guides. I've tried to do gear towards DD to an extent. This is my first job, and gil constraints have limited my ability to purchase certain equipmant. I had only read people talk about the +4 enmity and the ability to hold hate. So since I've never really had a problem with that i skipped it. But I hadn't done any real kiting, so ur insight there was extremely helpful thank you!
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#5 Mar 24 2009 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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Siralin the Vile wrote:
It's decent at 75 if you don't have Atonement or you can't hit the mob that you're tanking. Don't use it in exp on the way to 75.

QFT

Atonement has vastly changed the way PLD's tank in endgame. Kiting or voking sleeping mobs in Dynamis are about the only uses for the Mach +1 unless you don't yet have Atonement.
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#6 Mar 24 2009 at 7:08 PM Rating: Good
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I unfortunatelly dont have Atonement yet. This being my first character I have not been able to do nyzule isle yet to get Brave blade. I hope to change that soon though^^
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#7 Mar 24 2009 at 7:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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To be honest, I don't have atonement yet, and I still only use Mac +1 for kiting purposes. Since I haven't done a lot of Dyna yet, I can't speak for its use there, but I recognize that it would be more useful than the joyeuse I sport now.

Getting TP is still useful even if you don't have Atonement yet. Atonement just cements the deal.
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#8 Mar 24 2009 at 7:29 PM Rating: Good
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I've had some experience with dynamis. I"ve mostly just been a link handler, or mob control. The main tank in my LS actually uses his joytoy because he and the other dds are trying to kill the mobs asap so a dd sword is still good there. The other tanks, which backup main tank and link handle use the Machi +1, so thats where it probably comes in handy. Although i havent had any problems, unless im trying to hold 3+ mobs, which is a bad situation no matter which sword you use.


Thanks for all your help i really appreciate it
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#9 Mar 24 2009 at 11:02 PM Rating: Good
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You don't need Atonement to use a Joyeuse or other offensive sword, even endgame tanking.

Abuse Chivalry timers and use Spirits Within, it'll do way more in the long run than +4 Enmity.
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#10 Mar 25 2009 at 3:39 AM Rating: Default
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Personally, i really hate this sword. I really really dislike it.

For everything you can hit, a company sword for example has a 150% increase on the DMG rating alone. (37 * 1.5 = ~56). That's a 150% increase on hate gained through melee hits. More than weights up against the 4% increase in my oppinion.

I understand you cannot hit everything for decent damage, like gods for example, but 4% enmity is nothing. A paladin already has plenty of enmity. And when was the last time you actually went all out on Enmity gear anyhow? Wore that Adaman instead of your Gallant Coat? Used your Hercules ring instead of Jelly/BQ/or anything else?

If 4% Enmity suddenly helps you keep hate where you could not before, then you have more to worry about than just your weapon alone...

(That doesn't mean you shouldn't wear it for big kiting fights where you have nothing better to do though... Then again, there -is- that Earth Staff)
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#11 Mar 25 2009 at 4:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think we all agree that Mach+ is for endgame only and completely sucks for EXP, so everything im saying is geared towards endgame.

"KojiroSoma" wrote:
Personally, i really hate this sword. I really really dislike it.

For everything you can hit, a company sword for example has a 150% increase on the DMG rating alone. (37 * 1.5 = ~56). That's a 150% increase on hate gained through melee hits. More than weights up against the 4% increase in my oppinion.


150% of 0-10dmg is still absolute **** and will not increase your hate by any noticeable amount.

"KojiroSoma" wrote:
I understand you cannot hit everything for decent damage, like gods for example, but 4% enmity is nothing. A paladin already has plenty of enmity. And when was the last time you actually went all out on Enmity gear anyhow? Wore that Adaman instead of your Gallant Coat? Used your Hercules ring instead of Jelly/BQ/or anything else?


You're right, 4% enmity is nothing over all. But if you think like that with every piece of gear, then you're going to lose out on a lot of enmity, enough so that there will be a difference. Just by looking at the piece you bring up, you're losing out on 8 enmity.

Adaman body is still just as good as Gallant if not better, and imo if you already have around 1500 HP, then the extra 1% enmity from adaman will work out better for you than 20 HP. But honestly, thats a piece that can go either way.

And please don't get me started on Jelly ring. You should absolutely be using a Herc over that piece of **** considering the main thing that will be getting through your shadows is magical AOEs. The only thing people wearing jelly rings at fafnir and cerberus and pretty much any end gamefight are doing, is increasing the dmg they take, and decreasing their enmity.

"KojiroSoma" wrote:
If 4% Enmity suddenly helps you keep hate where you could not before, then you have more to worry about than just your weapon alone...

(That doesn't mean you shouldn't wear it for big kiting fights where you have nothing better to do though... Then again, there -is- that Earth Staff)


4% in one spot wont do much, but 4% here, 4% there... it adds up.

And as far as Earth staff.. there is also /nin. You shouldn't be getting hit much (if at all) while kiting. So load up on enmity.
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#12 Mar 25 2009 at 6:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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KojiroSoma wrote:
Then again, there -is- that Earth Staff)


You best be trolling.
#13 Mar 25 2009 at 7:54 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
And please don't get me started on Jelly ring. You should absolutely be using a Herc over that piece of **** considering the main thing that will be getting through your shadows is magical AOEs. The only thing people wearing jelly rings at fafnir and cerberus and pretty much any end gamefight are doing, is increasing the dmg they take, and decreasing their enmity.


Actually, there's one place at least that jelly ring is good for. It's dynamis. No PLD would /NIN in dynamis because it provides no hate tools against the sleepers. Most of the damage comes from physical attacks. There will be no magical damage other than from certain unsilencable NMs. Jelly ring would serve much better alongside a bombqueen or bloodbead ring.
#14 Mar 25 2009 at 8:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Although I was only really thinking of HNM fights, You have a point, but...

5% dmg when 60% of attacks will be blocked, or 3% enmity is a toss up. But I absolutely hate being caught by a stray spell with a Jelly ring on, especially when a lucky Mijin goes off and you only have 50ish HP left.

No Physical attack is going to one shot you in dynamis, so although the Jelly ring will help a bit (although negligibly on shield blocks), its really not worth it to me. If i go /RDM or happen to have a SCH BLU or SMN in my party, I rarely drop below max hp anyway, even with 3+ mobs on me. Id much rather have some enmity helping me keep those mobs on me instead.

Although, you could just gear swap it all in and out and get the best of both worlds. I just find there to be too much lag to in dynamis too properly hit macros with gear swaps non stop.
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#15 Mar 25 2009 at 11:15 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd actually consider my Terra Staff for kiting, since theres that grip with the enmity on it. I'd only use it if I was kiting something that runs faster than me though, and doesn't stop to cast spells often.

I can't think of anything off the top of my head like that though, so take that as you will :D

edit: And there is a physical attack that can kind of 1 shot you in dynamis. Everyone always forgets about Fairy Ring in dynamis-valk. His physical attacks do like 1068 damage or something silly like that, but then so does his tp attacks and they're breath damage.

Edited, Mar 25th 2009 2:16pm by Asdrabael
#16 Mar 25 2009 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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Asdrabael wrote:
Fairy Ring


**** that NM. I've never tanked it, but every time we've fought it, I've died. Smiley: motz
#17 Mar 25 2009 at 2:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Siralin the Vile wrote:
Asdrabael wrote:
Fairy Ring


Man...@#%^ that NM. I've never tanked it, but every time we've fought it, I've died. Smiley: motz


We never pull it, too much of a **** and too much time spent.

Just kill the Goobbue NM (Nan'tuma or something?) and CS Stun the boss, much easier and a lot of time saved.
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#18 Mar 26 2009 at 1:22 AM Rating: Good
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valdar wrote:
No PLD would /NIN in dynamis

Guess im going against the grain...
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#19 Mar 26 2009 at 4:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Why would you /nin in dynamis unless the goal is to spectate and not tank?

Unless you're the puller. I've seen paladin dynamis pullers before anyway.
#20 Mar 26 2009 at 4:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Asdrabael wrote:
Why would you /nin in dynamis unless the goal is to spectate and not tank?

Because plds tank dynamis anyhow? All you need is for someone to /assist to , in most of dynamis. The only time a pld gets to do much is for NM pulls(xbard) even then, some will sub something else like /drk for those.

Ive tanked on mnk(all cities+beau), and honestly its a munch better tank to have than pld/war. Ofcourse it will always come down the way the alliance is formed. Slower kill speeds will probably favor plds, but when youre killing faster just having /nin will due on a job thats suited for it.

I dont sub /nin on pld for the defense purposes like on HNMs if thats whats being implied, but just so I can dual wield multi hit weapons and produce more damage. It works just as well as /war imo.

Dynamis....isnt that hard

*note* Depending on what ls im with, I still sub w/o is best for the LS.

Edited, Mar 26th 2009 5:47am by hitoseijuro
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#21 Mar 26 2009 at 4:45 AM Rating: Good
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The way a pld tanks though, is crowd control, not keeping the mobs plastered onto him.

If you're /nin, you have 1 claim tool on a long timer unless you're also getting double marches AND haste. That means on bigger pulls, either you bring multiple paladins to handle the adds, thus wasting more spots, or you can only get hate on a couple mobs before they start running to eat the mages.

A single pld/rdm, or **** even a lol/war can add control better than a 3-4 /nin tanks purely because of the larger library of hate tools (/war gets voke at least...it sucks but its better than absolutely nothing).
#22 Mar 26 2009 at 4:56 AM Rating: Good
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Asdrabael wrote:
The way a pld tanks though, is crowd control, not keeping the mobs plastered onto him.

If you're /nin, you have 1 claim tool on a long timer unless you're also getting double marches AND haste. That means on bigger pulls, either you bring multiple paladins to handle the adds, thus wasting more spots, or you can only get hate on a couple mobs before they start running to eat the mages.

A single pld/rdm, or **** even a lol/war can add control better than a 3-4 /nin tanks purely because of the larger library of hate tools (/war gets voke at least...it sucks but its better than absolutely nothing).


I agree completely, but like I said, depending what LS I run with and how they are set, sometimes its a fine sub and other times I can see it not being fine. Like recently Im running with one that splits within groups the killing. Most dynamis usually assist one person and they basically kill one and move on, etc. This will have 1 group kill this, while the other group kills that. Havent had a problem with adds lately. Unfortunately I get to come blm(,_, )

But ya, wasnt saying /war is **** in dynamis, just there are other choices, depending ofcourse of the situation given. And yes if /nin I make sure I can get marchesx2 and haste if not, Ill just DD and provide back if the tank goes down or w/e.

Edited, Mar 26th 2009 5:57am by hitoseijuro
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#23 Mar 26 2009 at 12:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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A single PLD/RDM can easily hold larger pulls off of the sleepers, while the melee pick them off one by one (or two at a time if you double /assist).
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#24 Mar 30 2009 at 3:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Or you can, I don't know, toss a cure on your sleeper to be on hate list and build some hate from that with Cure IV's, sentinel, etc...?

You CAN sub NIN in Dynamis and hold hate off your sleepers.
It's just useless in cities, and far easier to go /WAR, /RDM or /DRK
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#25 Mar 30 2009 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Asdrabael wrote:
Why would you /nin in dynamis unless the goal is to spectate and not tank?


Depends on the zone and how well your LS works as a team.

Dyanmis Tav we always go with PLD/NIN x2. It's not hard with TA support to lock hate on a tank.

For Xarc it really is up to the main assist as to what they want to sub. Both /NIN and /WAR have their uses. Sometimes using /NIN on NMs and a /WAR assist for the rest works out very well. Having a THF TA Shark bite and the PLD closing with atonement at start will lock an NM down on the PLD with no issues.

City zones everything dies so quick nin sub is not all that useful.

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#26 Mar 30 2009 at 11:01 PM Rating: Good
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Tkinnen wrote:
City zones everything dies so quick nin sub is not all that useful.

This is precisely why I sub nin, because everything dies so fast, that worrying about sleeping mobs isnt an issue. I dont sub nin to avoid getting getting hit, I sub it so I can equip another sword and gain TP much faster, and add more damage to the group. Im very spoiled and a majority of the time my brds will provide me with double marches over everything else. So Ill be able to spam flash every ~22seconds which works out nicely.

Dynamis cities/beauc are like 1 big merit zerg parties, the mobs die too fast for you to worry too much on it. For my personal preference, Id rather just like to add more damage to the group.

Iam by no means saying pld/nin only for dynamis, I still sub /war and agree with Asdrabael that its a better sub because of the nature of dynamis, it can help a lot more than /nin. However, if the situation is fine, Id sub nin if applicable. Just like I would sub another sub for dynamis if called for.

I think its just how linkshells use their plds, some use them to hold sleepers others dont. Like blms and rdms, there are linkshells that use blms to sleep the mobs coming in, and other linkshells that use rdms to do it.
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#27 Mar 31 2009 at 4:32 AM Rating: Decent
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I understand what you're saying, and not trying to start an argument at this point. But if you aren't there to hold hate, and you're trying to speed up the kills. Why not just go as an actual DD job? I personally love DD pld and am well aware of the numbers we can put out, but a MNK or SAM or BLM (which you have leveled) will always speed up kills more than a dual wielding PLD.
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#28 Mar 31 2009 at 7:35 AM Rating: Good
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Eurell wrote:
I understand what you're saying, and not trying to start an argument at this point. But if you aren't there to hold hate, and you're trying to speed up the kills. Why not just go as an actual DD job? I personally love DD pld and am well aware of the numbers we can put out, but a MNK or SAM or BLM (which you have leveled) will always spee upd kills more than a dual wielding PLD.

Aye agreed, but I cant answer that, unless Im told to pick a DD job, I come as the job Im asked to come as. From years of playing this game, Ive found that offering new ways/ideas/suggestions to ppl are usually never given a chance, so Id rather not insist on coming on a different job than told to come as(unless it can mean a wipe). I think ppl are just safer having xjob at events. I can see a reason for having a pld around though, just to lessen the deaths by monk mobs perhaps. When I tanked it on mnk, we didnt have plds so we just allowed the blms to destroy mnk mobs which solved any HF problems ppl were worried about.

And yea im not trying to start arguements either, ppl are just curious why Ive subbed it for a particular event at times, and Im just giving my reasons. I basically just tried it out, it worked and I enjoyed it more than /war at the time and situation presented to me, for me its basically like killing campaign mobs, but with buffs!

Edited, Mar 31st 2009 8:36am by hitoseijuro
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