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Provoke glitch?Follow

#1 Mar 13 2009 at 8:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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There has been several instances where when I provoked from a pull, the mob completely ignored it and kept attacking the puller, then goes to rampage around in the party. The pulls are always very regular, just simply using a ranged attack. I'm currently a level 45 PLD and my sister is a level 30 PLD who has faced the similar problem as well. As for me, the problem stopped coming up when I hit 35 and regularly went to Crawler's Nest.

Has anyone faced this before? Can it possibly be a glitch?
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#2 Mar 13 2009 at 8:46 AM Rating: Good
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possibly. i have noticed before that when i provoke at max range, sometimes it doesnt take affect, sometimes it does. i suggest just waiting until your puller gets a little closer to provoke.
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#3 Mar 13 2009 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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There are a number of possible answers to this, although you preempted one by saying that the puller was not pulling with provoke. If it is a ranger, he/she could be pulling with barrage up. There are other possibilities, but I can't think of any more off hand.
#4 Mar 13 2009 at 9:53 AM Rating: Good
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This got me one shotted by Byakko as soon as we popped it D: (I was RDM).
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#5 Mar 13 2009 at 11:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you Provoke at max range, I've noticed that it will often "not take effect", in that it will beat up everyone else but you.

Just wait for them to get closer to camp before Voking, or you could start with Flash, I've never had this problem with Flash.
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#6 Mar 13 2009 at 10:14 PM Rating: Decent
This is very interesting, never had this happen, but might be because I generally start with flash to get it's recast time started right away XD
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#7 Mar 13 2009 at 11:35 PM Rating: Good
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Hozu wrote:
This got me one shotted by Byakko as soon as we popped it D: (I was RDM).


Smiley: lol I think I was there for that. ****** cat made a beeline right for Hozu, triple attacked or crit hit then went back to the tanks. God I laughed so hard.
#8 Mar 16 2009 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I've seen this many, many times. If you provoke at max range, it can seem to "miss" the mob...as if it never happened.

This does seem like a bug that needs fixing.
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#9 Mar 17 2009 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
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I've done an absurd amount of tanking, and I always spam my Provoke macro so that it goes off the moment the mob is in range, and I have never once seen this happen.

That makes me think that is anything odd really is happening, it might have something to do with personal latency or lag. Perhaps Provoke can fire when your computer thinks the mob is in range but the server does not? That seems unlikely given that an incoming mob should usually be closer to you on the server than on your screen, but maybe something similar is happening.
#10 Mar 17 2009 at 5:42 PM Rating: Good
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Siralin the Vile wrote:
Hozu wrote:
This got me one shotted by Byakko as soon as we popped it D: (I was RDM).


Smiley: lol I think I was there for that. @#%^in cat made a beeline right for Hozu, triple attacked or crit hit then went back to the tanks. God I laughed so hard.


You were. It was a Triple attack w/ the first hit being a crit. The whole LS laughed at me. -_-
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#11 Mar 17 2009 at 5:48 PM Rating: Good
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My GF and me can both attest to this happening before. I was actually meaning to come and make a post about these "broken vokes" before. I've never noticed that it only happens at max range but I'll have to watch out for it now.
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#12 Mar 17 2009 at 7:01 PM Rating: Decent
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WOAH I never knew this.

Good info man.
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#13 Mar 17 2009 at 10:52 PM Rating: Decent
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I've also had this happen to me and it's really quite annoying. My linkshell mates did get a kick out of it one night when my vokes weren't doing anything at the start of thr fight.
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#14 Mar 18 2009 at 3:10 AM Rating: Good
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Had this happen a bunch of times.

I figure its just some server issue.
#15 Mar 19 2009 at 3:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Sometimes the intial damage from a gun wielding COR or RNG is more hate through damage then your voke at low levels. I've seen it happen before in East Ronfure [S] on birds. Granted it was a war/nin tanking. But that may be a possible explanation. Once you get Flash should be flashing before voke anyways, it shouldn't happen again.
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#16 Mar 19 2009 at 7:45 AM Rating: Good
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Assuming no enmity gear:

Provoke yields 1800 VE.

In order for a DD to deal enough damage to overcome 1800 VE, they'd have to generate a total enmity of 1800 (TE). Since TE = CE + VE and since damage dealt deals both CE and VE, we can reverse engineer this.

Colibri are level 45-47, so we'll do this in 3 sets to show how much damage would need to be done to supersede provoke.

x - Damage dealt
Level 45: x*2.424 CE + x*7.27 VE = 9.694*x TE
Level 46: x*2.353 CE + x*7.06 VE = 9.413*x TE
Level 47: x*2.286 CE + x*6.86 VE = 9.146*x TE

Provoke < Damage Dealt --> How much damage needs to be dealt to equal provoke.
Level 45: 1800 < 9.694*x --> 185.68 --> 186 damage
Level 46: 1800 < 9.413*x --> 191.22 --> 192 damage
Level 47: 1800 < 9.146*x --> 196.81 --> 197 damage

Note that a LOT of that damage will be done in VE which decreases at 30 VE a second, so that unless the puller is right at camp and the mob is provoked right away, even one second will place the above damage below the enmity of provoke. This also assumes that the PLD or the WAR is not using any enmity gear (which at 37-40, they probably aren't).

However, there's one more catch. The initial puller generates 200 VE in addition to the action they used to pull. So, this lowers the threshold to

Level 45: 1800 < 9.694*x + 200 --> 165.05 --> 166 damage
Level 46: 1800 < 9.413*x + 200 --> 169.98 --> 170 damage
Level 47: 1800 < 9.146*x + 200 --> 174.94 --> 175 damage

In other words, at that level, I really find it hard to believe that the damage from a gun wielding COR or RNG dealt sufficient damage to override provoke with a single shot. A second or third shot? Maybe, but not from the initial pull. And, the tank should have done something besides just provoking by that point.

All CE and VE numbers used (Kanican's Enmity Tables. No variables were harmed in the manufacturing of this post.
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#17 Mar 19 2009 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
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Dracoth wrote:
Assuming no enmity gear:

Provoke yields 1800 VE.

In order for a DD to deal enough damage to overcome 1800 VE, they'd have to generate a total enmity of 1800 (TE). Since TE = CE + VE and since damage dealt deals both CE and VE, we can reverse engineer this.

Colibri are level 45-47, so we'll do this in 3 sets to show how much damage would need to be done to supersede provoke.

x - Damage dealt
Level 45: x*2.424 CE + x*7.27 VE = 9.694*x TE
Level 46: x*2.353 CE + x*7.06 VE = 9.413*x TE
Level 47: x*2.286 CE + x*6.86 VE = 9.146*x TE

Provoke < Damage Dealt --> How much damage needs to be dealt to equal provoke.
Level 45: 1800 < 9.694*x --> 185.68 --> 186 damage
Level 46: 1800 < 9.413*x --> 191.22 --> 192 damage
Level 47: 1800 < 9.146*x --> 196.81 --> 197 damage

Note that a LOT of that damage will be done in VE which decreases at 30 VE a second, so that unless the puller is right at camp and the mob is provoked right away, even one second will place the above damage below the enmity of provoke. This also assumes that the PLD or the WAR is not using any enmity gear (which at 37-40, they probably aren't).

However, there's one more catch. The initial puller generates 200 VE in addition to the action they used to pull. So, this lowers the threshold to

Level 45: 1800 < 9.694*x + 200 --> 165.05 --> 166 damage
Level 46: 1800 < 9.413*x + 200 --> 169.98 --> 170 damage
Level 47: 1800 < 9.146*x + 200 --> 174.94 --> 175 damage

In other words, at that level, I really find it hard to believe that the damage from a gun wielding COR or RNG dealt sufficient damage to override provoke with a single shot. A second or third shot? Maybe, but not from the initial pull. And, the tank should have done something besides just provoking by that point.

All CE and VE numbers used (Kanican's Enmity Tables. No variables were harmed in the manufacturing of this post.
I've noticed before when two people voke at almost exactly the same time, one of them doesn't appear to count. I and my buddy both voke, I pop warcry (which hits 4 party members) in that same instant: mob still looking at him. My voke didn't seem to count. We did this at the start both voking off the puller just to test it because something seemed fishy. Neither of us performed any action prior or got hit (and I was FAST with that warcry). Hadn't engaged yet. Neither of us had any enmity merits in either direction. I have no explanation for this.
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#18 Mar 19 2009 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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thatdamnelf wrote:
I've noticed before when two people voke at almost exactly the same time, one of them doesn't appear to count. I and my buddy both voke, I pop warcry (which hits 4 party members) in that same instant: mob still looking at him. My voke didn't seem to count. We did this at the start both voking off the puller just to test it because something seemed fishy. Neither of us performed any action prior or got hit (and I was FAST with that warcry). Hadn't engaged yet. Neither of us had any enmity merits in either direction. I have no explanation for this.


That does seem wierd, but I have a question. Did you pop Warcry before or after Voking? If you did it before, then Warcry will have no effect on your enmity levels. You have to be on the mobs list before enmity starts to count.

If you did it after... Then, yeah, something seems wierd about it. I'll have to test this out myself and see what I can come up with.
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#19 Mar 19 2009 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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Used warcry after voke.
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#20 Mar 19 2009 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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Its just as I thought, even the game advocates against subbing /war ....
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#21 Mar 19 2009 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Vaala wrote:
Sometimes the intial damage from a gun wielding COR or RNG is more hate through damage then your voke at low levels. I've seen it happen before in East Ronfure [S] on birds. Granted it was a war/nin tanking. But that may be a possible explanation. Once you get Flash should be flashing before voke anyways, it shouldn't happen again.


This is definitely not the case, because if it was then that RNG/COR would have more TE than Provoke nearly every time, and as I've said before, there were never any barrage pulls, and this also happened when my RNG puller had -4 Emnity Merits.

Since I tend to 'lead' the pulled mob away from mages to avoid them getting caught in frontal attacks, I voke first then flash second, almost out of habit, and it's something that works really well for me until -this- happens. I (we) shouldn't have to work around a glitch.
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#22 Mar 19 2009 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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NCCoda wrote:
If you Provoke at max range, I've noticed that it will often "not take effect", in that it will beat up everyone else but you.

This is basically what might of happen. Along with other probabilities, like slow engagement vs rng/cor firing at it before you do. Esp on a mob you wont be hitting too hard, ie beetles and crawlers vs a rng/cor who might be damaging it harder+faster than you.

Also -emnity merits, all kick in early at that level?

Distance seems to be the more reasonable solution. Ive 2houred before with a good amount of hate already on me, and the mob never even flinched to look at me.
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#23 Mar 21 2009 at 12:42 AM Rating: Good
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I made a post about this a little while back as well. The only time this has happened to me was when I was engaging the mob right as I provoked (as in, I clicked attack and then immediately hit provoke). Provoke wouldn't take effect and I never could figure out why. Regardless, it has been 'bugged' for quite a while. Saw it happen just the other day in a level 55 party with a PLD tank (THF puller).
#24 Mar 22 2009 at 11:05 PM Rating: Decent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
I made a post about this a little while back as well. The only time this has happened to me was when I was engaging the mob right as I provoked (as in, I clicked attack and then immediately hit provoke). Provoke wouldn't take effect and I never could figure out why. Regardless, it has been 'bugged' for quite a while. Saw it happen just the other day in a level 55 party with a PLD tank (THF puller).


That's probably something where it's trying to target yourself for the voke--I've had this happen to me after engaging, or if I half-complete or over-complete engaging. It's something like the yellow cursor's targeting you while the blue cursor's targeting the mob.

And having voked several thousand times (WAR 75 NIN 70 and about 150 merits on WAR)--I've never noticed a problem with voke, except the one above. Any other abnormalities I could trace to normal hate mechanics.

Edited, Mar 23rd 2009 2:08am by Eltio
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#25 Mar 24 2009 at 4:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes I have had this happen a few times myself synced blu/war, inital pull was a missed throw from nin and id voke, a blm would pop Dia and pull hate... wtf? no one died, but if people say its a glitch that makes a little more sense.
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#26 Apr 03 2009 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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It seems to me like simultaneous actions on the mob are the culprit. In addition to the situation in my above post, I and the same friend were camping an NM recently and if anyone else had been around we'd have lost claim. I voked, voke went off so its wasn't the your-to-fast error, and the mob totally ignored it and stayed unclaimed. At the same instant he'd tried to claim with stun and I saw his engage animation at the same time (drew his scyth, he's a drk I'm a war). Stun also went off. We were in party mind you, and melee'd it to 50% before it finally went claimed. We were both really glad nobody else was present.

Edit:
I forgot to mention, it popped right on top of me. Distance could not possibly be a factor this time.

Edited, Apr 3rd 2009 5:59pm by thatdamnelf
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#27 Apr 03 2009 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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I've had it happen once or twice.

Engage with Flash; it has a longer range and a better chance of pulling hate. And cure your puller if you can; he's the only one on the hate list prior to someone curing him. That someone could be you!
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