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#1 Mar 12 2009 at 7:48 PM Rating: Decent
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just wondering how often you use your justice sword and what for if (and if you have a justice you probably have a joytoy) you have a Joyeuse. this thing chews through virtue stones like there is not tomorrow.
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#2 Mar 13 2009 at 12:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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I use Joytoy almost full-time, since it gives a high DA rate without using an ammo slot. It also has a higher calculated DPS than a Justice sword, at least according to Wiki.

Only time I'd use both is recapping XP, Joy/Justice (offhand Justice since Joy has a higher base damage for WSs), but I still don't have one since I've always passed the sword to all the other people who want one.
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#3 Mar 13 2009 at 1:48 AM Rating: Good
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If you XP Joyeuse/Justice is awesome, but that's the only time I would use this setup.

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#4 Mar 13 2009 at 2:29 AM Rating: Good
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I use Joy/Justice in Limbus a lot. Not against the bosses, obviously.

Also, notice, Joy/Justice. Not Justice/Joy. Ever.
#5 Mar 13 2009 at 4:34 AM Rating: Good
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I use Joy/Justice in exp and in Nyzul. I'll do climbing floors dual wield DD set up, And boss floors sword/shield.
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#6 Mar 13 2009 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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Due to an inability to show up when my LS does Sea (time schedules are killer), I rock Company/Joy in XP, Limbus, or Nyzul on anything except the bosses. Because my group is still getting a handle on certain mobs (flayers particularly), I usually Sword/Shield them, but I have a macro to switch back and forth quickly enough that it's just a matter of timing. Losing TP in those situations is worth it to me.

If I had a Justice, I'd use Joy/Justice everywhere I currently use Company/Joy. I.e., anything I'm not seriously tanking (gods and bosses for the events I do).
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#7 Mar 13 2009 at 11:49 AM Rating: Decent
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let me clarify since how i wrote the title is messed up. i'm not talking about dual weild i'm talking about which you use and in what situation if you are on sword/board.
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#8 Mar 13 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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If you're picking between the two for sword/shield, Joy over Justice, imo. The extra damage will help a little more and you don't have to worry about keeping Virtue stones around (gaining the slot for, say, a Smart Grenade).
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#9 Mar 13 2009 at 1:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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psubond wrote:
let me clarify since how i wrote the title is messed up. i'm not talking about dual weild i'm talking about which you use and in what situation if you are on sword/board.


I would still use Joyeuse all the time, it's a higher base damage, close to the same DA rate, and you can use a DD oriented Ammo slot instead of having to put Virtue Stones there. (Or something like a Lamia Kaman for your standard endgame tanking)

(Also, not having to farm for Stones is nice. Not hard to farm them, but that's more time to do something else ^^)
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#10 Mar 13 2009 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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I think Justice has a slightly higher proc rate than joy? If so, then it would probably be the better option. But I just don't have to time to farm virtues to use for every single event.
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#11 Mar 13 2009 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
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That's a silly question then. Use Joyeuse if you're only going to be using one.

The reason the two swords are such a big deal is that you go from about 2.45 hits/round to about 3 hits/round. Very rough math gives ~20% increase in TP gain.
20% is a huge increase in this game. Consider that upgrading from dusk ledelsens to homam gambieras is about 3-4% increase to DoT, or sniper's ring +1 is about 1% increase from NQ. Joy/Justice is a very big deal.
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#12 Mar 13 2009 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Usually things like Limbus, Nyzul, Assaults, exp and the like are fine examples of where I use Joy/Justice.

Depending on what exactly it is, sometimes I will just /war and use Justice as it stacks with the double attack, and this makes it a very nice /war DD option.

Anything /dnc or whatever I just use Joyeuse as without double attack to stack, I don't notice an increase over joyeuse at all.

Wearing Corazza + Brutal may make it worth it but I usually go Eth/Suppa when i'm dnc and it's really a moot point then.
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#13 Mar 13 2009 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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Eurell wrote:
I think Justice has a slightly higher proc rate than joy? If so, then it would probably be the better option. But I just don't have to time to farm virtues to use for every single event.


It is a reported 55% DA rate, versus Joyeuse reported 45% DA rate.

DA has diminishing returns though, Joyeuse has a higher base damage, and you're using one slot to use a Joyeuse, two slots to use a Justice. That other slot is "wasted" in that you could achieve almost the same DA rate, with a higher base damage, & have more DD stats in your Ammo slot.
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#14 Mar 13 2009 at 2:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't know if this was mentioned with the replies, but Joyeuse is Piercing weapon. I do not have justice yet, but its nice to have both so you can swap off whether to use "slashing weapon or piercing weapon" as main hand for damage dealing. For PLD/NIN tanking same rules apply use the right weapon for the mob weakness.
#15 Mar 13 2009 at 3:21 PM Rating: Default
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Joy 35/224 45% proc that does not stack with DA/TA, dmg:piercing
Justice 34/236 proc that DOES stack with DA/TA and dmg:slashing, +7str

So this is how I interpreted that:

DA reportedly has diminishing returns, which hurts Joy, not Justice. Justice stacks with DA, so if you're /war or have brutal, homam body, ares's etc this would get you better results from Justice. Justice's +7 has a 25% chance to up fstr by 1 and a 75% chance to up it by 2. I'm pretty sure that basically makes it a 35/236 25% of the time and 36/236 75% of the time.

It seems like a 10% added proc rate that stacks with DA/TA would easily justify the 12 extra delay.

Depending on your other jobs and how often your LS spends in sea stones might be easier to get, which is by far the most limiting factor for which to use. If you can get 12 stacks of stones easy peasy, sweets. If you can't solo or your linkshell doesn't often kill things where you could get stones, you're better off using Joy for most of the things.

I think I got all the info right about the differences between joy and justice. Justice should basically out damage Joy on most things, piercing bonus could pull Joy ahead. By far the biggest factor is how many stones you have and the ease you can replenish them.

Edited, Mar 13th 2009 11:15pm by Requim
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#16 Mar 13 2009 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Also, it is justice/joy. Not joy/justice. You main hand justice because it can proc double attacks on top of the virtue stone proc. When you vorpal that gives you an extra 4 possible max hits if DA and virtue stones proc per hit. Joy can't proc with DA, so even though it's max damage is higher, you don't want to main hand it (possibly the only time you use a lower base damage weapon in main hand).


This is not the case with Jailer weapons, you will never lose a stone during a weaponskill, meaning it does not work. Any double attacks during WS's are traits or in equipment that gives the trait.
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#17 Mar 13 2009 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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Requim wrote:
Also, it is justice/joy. Not joy/justice. You main hand justice because it can proc double attacks on top of the virtue stone proc. When you vorpal that gives you an extra 4 possible max hits if DA and virtue stones proc per hit. Joy can't proc with DA, so even though it's max damage is higher, you don't want to main hand it (possibly the only time you use a lower base damage weapon in main hand).


I remember seeing several tests (just can't find a one now...) where this is not true. If my memory is correct, neither can proc on WS's. Thus, you're better off with Joy over Justice for the higher base damage.
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#18 Mar 13 2009 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Ah, wasn't sure on the WS, but it does stack with DA for normal hits, so as far as potential on a single weapon you're still better off with justice because 12 delay seems tiny when you get 10% more proc and stacks with DA/TA. So if you can get the stones you're probably better off with justice.

Also the fstr essentially makes them same base damage though right? So you get more proc and sometimes more base damage from justice, so you should see higher returns from using justice over joy while non-dw'ing. Bummer it can't proc on WS, so joy/justice, though imo justice > joy for single wielding.
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#19 Mar 13 2009 at 8:47 PM Rating: Default
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I'm thinking Joy/war would be better...
what is the difference in double attack and off handing a justice ?
shield + reprisal vs usts
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Atonement with Provoke

with Atonement I think Joy/war would be pretty good in merits ... I can't test vs nin as I do not have justice sword. Even if It's worse at least you'd save stones.

#20 Mar 13 2009 at 8:55 PM Rating: Good
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Joyeuse doesn't stack with DA, so you're seeing less DA's proc than you otherwise would. Sure, you'll see a few more than if you weren't /WAR, but you're losing a lot.

And, for merits, you also lose out on shadows. The entire point to merit parties is that the DDs take as little hate as possible. /WAR doesn't help in that respect without also giving up DD, in which case, you won't have hate to begin with.

And, to Requiem: fstr will boost both of them at the same rate, until capped. PLD, although it has a high STR rating, is probably not going to cap either sword out (too lazy to run the numbers). I can see an argument for Justice in the slightly higher DA rate, but the base damage on Joyeuse will always be higher, thus leading to better WS's.
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#21 Mar 14 2009 at 1:10 AM Rating: Good
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Dracoth wrote:
And, to Requiem: fstr will boost both of them at the same rate, until capped. PLD, although it has a high STR rating, is probably not going to cap either sword out (too lazy to run the numbers). I can see an argument for Justice in the slightly higher DA rate, but the base damage on Joyeuse will always be higher, thus leading to better WS's.


I think hes referring to justice vs joy , for single use. Where the 7str on justice would bring the damage difference between joy and justice to about the same. After all its only 35 vs 34. Basically what its going to come down to is can the lower delay and 1damage difference in Ws out weigh 10% more DA. My guess is that they are going to be virtually identical. Justice might pull ahead most of the time. However, if the piercing becomes of use, in otherwords if you can get the piercing bonus from Joy, Joy wins.
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#22 Mar 14 2009 at 8:03 AM Rating: Good
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hitoseijuro wrote:
Dracoth wrote:
And, to Requiem: fstr will boost both of them at the same rate, until capped. PLD, although it has a high STR rating, is probably not going to cap either sword out (too lazy to run the numbers). I can see an argument for Justice in the slightly higher DA rate, but the base damage on Joyeuse will always be higher, thus leading to better WS's.


I think hes referring to justice vs joy , for single use. Where the 7str on justice would bring the damage difference between joy and justice to about the same. After all its only 35 vs 34. Basically what its going to come down to is can the lower delay and 1damage difference in Ws out weigh 10% more DA. My guess is that they are going to be virtually identical. Justice might pull ahead most of the time. However, if the piercing becomes of use, in otherwords if you can get the piercing bonus from Joy, Joy wins.


Duh. Should've realized that's what he was referring to. And, yeah, that will bring them about even excepting piercing bonus.
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#23 Mar 14 2009 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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I would take 10% more DA and full effectiveness of /WAR or a Brutal Earring over a Tiphia Sting in my ammo slot, any day. Unless the piercing mattered (or I was too lazy to farm stones) I would always choose a Justice over a Joyeuse.
#24 Mar 15 2009 at 1:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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When single wielding, several pro joyeuse arguments have been made.

> Joyeuse has higher base damage, therefore it's better than justice:

A: Joy only has higher base damage if you're at capped fSTR; otherwise the 7 STR from justice sword gives you 1-2 base damage from fSTR meaning you can have *higher* base damage with Justice.

> DA has diminishing returns, so justice is not significantly better than joyeuse:

A: In the same number of attack rounds, even if both weapons are base 50% DA, since justice DA stacks with DA/TA, you'll generate significantly more hits with it. In 100 attack rounds, joy @50% base DA with brutal will generate about 152.5 attacks. Under the same conditions, justice will generate 155. If you're subbing war, it'll be 157.5 v. 165 (still using brutal). That's about 4.76% more damage from justice.

There are two valid arguments against justice.

1.) Joy has lower delay:

The delay difference 224 v. 236 will add up over time, and if you're at the same number of hits with each weapon, this would be an advantage for joy.

2.) Joy allows other items in ammo slot:

The 2 att/acc or 4 att from ranged will give ~1.25-2% more damage, depending, and may or may not negate the advantage from justice's extra DAs.

Appendix:
Just/Joy # hit builds: (assuming 1 hit WS; numbers adjust slightly w/ vorpy or any other multi-hit WS)
Joy: (#hits, store TP value, time between WS (dly*[interval-1])
17 0-4___3584
16 5-11__3360
15 12-19_3136
14 20-28_2912
13 29-39_2688
12 40-51_2464
11 52____2240
Just:
16 0-6___3540
15 7-14__3304
14 15-22_3068
13 23-33_2832
12 34-45_2596
11 46_58_2360
10 59____2124

If you have a lower hit build with justice, then it generates WS slightly faster than joy (it also still generates fewer base attack rounds).

TP where just reaches 100 in fewer hits: (given in red)

00 (no STP)
01 02 03 04
05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45
46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60
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#25 Mar 15 2009 at 8:48 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure how to decode that. And I'm also not convinced that this is a question worth giving a **** about. Using justice sword by itself is a waste of stones; double them up, or use Joyeuse to save farming time.
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#26 Mar 16 2009 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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One other thing to take into account. Are you using Vorpal Blade, Atonement or some other weapon skill?

I find Atonement makes a change in how I gear or what weapon I use between Justice and Joy.





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#27 Mar 16 2009 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
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The real question is if a) does the piercing bonus matter? b) does the difference in justice vs joy when justice wins is big enough to expend the stones.

Chances are the difference won't be enough that I would want to go out of my way to get stones from sea just for the small increase. WS would matter in that if you are single wielding there is a high likelihood you would be using atonement, which I don't think you are aching to spam it at 100% tp or at least not to the same degree that you would with vorpal, therefore over tping wouldn't really matter for atonement?

Also I am confused on your DA math.
Joy has a proc rate of 45%, brutal bumps that up to "50%" except that there is a only a 65% chance that brutal would go off since Joy's proc would trump it.

So of the 100 hits, 45 joy procs + 3.25 brutal procs = 148.25 or about 148 wouldn't it? Adding in /war gets you 6.5 more swings.

Justice having a proc rate of 55% giving you 55 extra hits. Brutal would add another 5, /war another 10 so you would have 160 or 170 hits.

Taking into account that joy had tiphia it means about 1-2 or more hits would land (~+1% hit rate), but for swings justice still has a 10+ lead of 148.25 vs 160 or 154.75 vs 170.

Am I calculating something wrong because you got very different numbers... I do not understand how a joy with a 45% proc rate coupled with a 5% earring that does not stack would get more than 50% proc rate.
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#28 Mar 16 2009 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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requim wrote:

Am I calculating something wrong because you got very different numbers... I do not understand how a joy with a 45% proc rate coupled with a 5% earring that does not stack would get more than 50% proc rate.


Your math is correct, you'll note I said something along the lines of, "supposing just and joy had same base DA rate." I've never taken the time to calculate out the exact DA rates on them, and haven't seen the test where 45% was proven. So I've just been habitually skeptical.
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