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Returning to PLDFollow

#1 Mar 12 2009 at 4:31 PM Rating: Decent
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785 posts
Hey folks,

I started up my Galka years ago with the intention of making him a PLD. After a few distractions (lol Galka DNC rules) I've decided to come back to PLD. I'm seeing a lot of hubub about DD PLD, even at low levels, and I understand the concept: more damage = more hate and faster kills. I was competely turtle oriented before (Honour Sword at 52 because of 2 VIT for example).

I decided to throw in some more DD pieces. My setup, while not spectacular is as follows:


Paladin 54/WAR
Weapon: Tactician Magician's Espadon (good dps, and 12 attack)
Shield: Royal Knight Army Shield (good def, 2 str)
Ammo: Happy Egg
Head: Iron Musketeer's Armet (could be better I know)
Neck: Parade Gorget (this thing rules)
Earring: Hospitaler Earring
Earring: Anti-Venom Earring (I need MP, I'm a Galka)
Body: Gaia Doublet (4 VIT, woot!)
Hands: Elder's Bracers until I use the MP then AF
Ring: Verve Ring
Ring: Mana Ring
Back: High Breath Mantle
Waist: Life Belt
Legs: Mythril Cuisses (could be better)
Feet: AF


Now my gear could use some improving, but that's not the point. In the old days I'd be eatting +Defense food, and use Defender again with the intent of turtling. This time, I used Meat for more attack, and started off with neither Defender nor Berserk active.

Our PT was synched to 52 in Kuftal vs crabs. I took a LOT of damage, until I turned Defender on. After that things went fairly smoothly, and I only lost hate to the BLM casting Freeze two seconds into the fight, or when the puller started the fight when my MP was around 5.

I really don't understand how everyone says Defense doesn't matter! It's got diminishing returns I'm sure, and stacking it at the expense of all DDing stats is certainly a bad idea, but there seems to be a certain base amount you need in order to keep damage at reasonable levels. Getting there without either Defender or Defense food seems very unlikely.

So my question:

How can you tank without Defender or Defense food (not necessarily both at once) against (non lolibri) IT exp mobs?
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Miasto of Bismarck
Black Mage 75 Summoner 75 + misc. mages
Stabbywabby of Garuda
Dancing Galka 75
Jahion of Garuda
Corsair 71
#2 Mar 12 2009 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
The main thing to remember is that paladin is not a DEF tanker. It used to be, but the scaling of Str/Att vs Vit/Def is broken. It would be an enormous pain for SE to fix the calculations, so they switched Pld to a shield tanker role instead. This effectively killed the Earth Staff standing tank, making it primarily useful for kiting. This is why everyone tells you that you AF boots are godly, +10 shield skill. This also explains the price of the Buckler Earring.

That's not to say increased def doesn't have a purpose, it just has diminishing returns. 25% from food is noticable, 5 def for a different body piece is not. As you get closer to 75, you'll find that 25% more def most definitely does NOT mean 25% less damage. Shield skill through gear and skill level is going to have more effect than all but the most extreme defensive options.

This is one key to DD pld, the other is understanding that all the turtle gear in the world does no good when the mob is pounding on the Sam with poor impulse control. There's a couple of ways to work it, regardless, it's a good idea to have a DD gear set, a Turtle gear set, and a resting gear set. You can also set up a spike enmity gear set of all the +enmity you can get your hands on for when that single provoke MUST get hate.

What to use and when is pretty situational.

DD pld really works well for VT mob speed kills. It also works well if the dedicated DD in the party constantly pull hate. If you're not getting hit, your turtle set does nothing. I did the crawlers in Mount Zhayolm for a few levels using hauby and dorado sushi. I wouldn't have, but the DD couldn't control themselves and the enmity from the sushi, plus the damage from my other DD gear kept the mob mostly on me. It also made for noticably faster kills.

Turtle pld is really for slower kills, usually the result of bad DD or over camping. Yes, you will overcamp. There will be a point where you're starting to get the first kill of a chain for 115xp and someone suggests moving camp. It usually starts with. "Just the other day we did imps at 65, and it went fine." They don't remember that they had a bard and 5/6 people had 500k xp worth of merits. Now you have a rank 4 rdm who complains about subbing whm and a Sam wearing R.K chainmail at 65. This isn't gonna go so well.

Resting gear is pretty self explanatory and not that commonly used. PLD have a relatively small mp pool, with sanction refresh, parade gorget, job trait and a rdm, you're pretty self sufficient. If you do need resting gear, if you can wear it and it gives hMP, swap it in.

As far as food goes, meat truly is amazing, especially considering how cheap mithkabobs are. if you're IT camping, your acc isn't so hot, and the DD can't stop pulling hate, try dorado sushi, all the acc of regular sushi with +3 enmity. Obviously, Tacos are the Turtle food of choice. There are better options for all but the sushi, but you'll pay more than the difference is worth.
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#3 Mar 12 2009 at 6:32 PM Rating: Good
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2,720 posts
Self-promoting link.

Still working on finishing some sections, but the core stuff (especially the gear) is finished.

In my personal experience, I full timed Hauby +1 and used Dorado Sushi til level 72. Never had any problems. The few times I parsed the difference resulted in one extra Cure III per fight. If your support line can't support that, than you're overcamping, anyway.

Edited, Mar 12th 2009 8:33pm by Dracoth
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Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
#4 Mar 12 2009 at 8:11 PM Rating: Decent
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568 posts
"How can you tank without Defender or Defense food (not necessarily both at once) against (non lolibri) IT exp mobs?"

Short answer: You're right, you can't bloodtank IT++ non ToAU mobs without turtling to some extent, BUT no one fights those mobs anymore post 54 (nor for the most part should they), so it's a moot point.

Long Answer: see the other posts

P.S. Before level 54 there's still some room for def builds since obviously there aren't any weak ToAU mobs to be had, and some low level camps are super crowded. These two things often lead to "overcamping" in pickup parties and hence, situations where eating def food or popping defender might come in handy. But you're past that now.
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Leviathan
Elvaan Female
Windurstian
76PLD/75WAR/75COR/45NIN/39RNG/37SAM/26THF/25WHM
#5 Mar 13 2009 at 7:20 PM Rating: Decent
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785 posts
Thanks guys. Makes sense. I think the DD PLD advocates should perhaps be more careful in making absolute claims about their play style, since it is, like pretty much everything, situational. In the case of DD PLD, that situation is
T-VT chains and colibris.

I'd hate to see lowbie PLDs taking more damage than BLMs because they're decked out in DD gear trying to "do it right".
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Miasto of Bismarck
Black Mage 75 Summoner 75 + misc. mages
Stabbywabby of Garuda
Dancing Galka 75
Jahion of Garuda
Corsair 71
#6 Mar 13 2009 at 8:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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2,720 posts
PriestoftheVoid wrote:
Thanks guys. Makes sense. I think the DD PLD advocates should perhaps be more careful in making absolute claims about their play style, since it is, like pretty much everything, situational. In the case of DD PLD, that situation is
T-VT chains and colibris.

I'd hate to see lowbie PLDs taking more damage than BLMs because they're decked out in DD gear trying to "do it right".


I've DD PLD'd now in sync parties. From level 20-55. And, my first experiences being 55-75. I've never regretted not going with DD gear on VT-IT-'s. Hell, my first experience was craptastic DD gear showed an increase in 500 xp/hr at the cost of one Cure III per fight. Easily manageable, and we were overcamping on IT++'s at the time.

Specifically at lower levels, where the mobs have lower attack/defense ratings, the numbers have a little bit more value, sure. It's easier to put pdif in our favor either way. Sure, if you're REALLY over camping, then, yes, turtle PLD is the way to go. The problem is, because of the level ranges at various levels, IT at 20-45 ends up being low IT-VT at 75, so the level correction that most people are afraid of is actually the same.

Edit: Forgot the main thing I wanted to address.... The ONLY way a PLD is going to take more damage than a BLM is prior to defense job traits kicking in. MOST DD gear also has a modicum of defense. Far more than the mages get on most of their gear, so the PLD should still end up the clear winner there.

I'll admit it, too. I push DD PLD. I'll always push DD PLD. I've seen it work too many times NOT to think it should work. Even in the lower levels, you shouldn't be overcamping as often as everyone does. But, we're too used to xp'ing 1-50 the same ways we did before. DD PLD will always have a place. So will turtle PLD. For me, though, Turtle PLD is just a little too outdated for me to get behind.

Edited, Mar 13th 2009 10:33pm by Dracoth
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Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
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