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Ideas for Standing setup?Follow

#1 Feb 19 2009 at 1:24 AM Rating: Good
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I don't have a set dedicated only to standing, wondering how to make the most out of idle time. Apparently, from what I can gather, the generally accepted idea is Haste + Accuracy + Refresh. Are there any "Must Haves" or "Dos" and "Do Nots" for standing? Should I go all-out with my TP setup(Check Sig)? Any info is appreciated.
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#2 Feb 19 2009 at 2:06 AM Rating: Decent
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I’d go acc over haste on anything I would use a ‘standing’ set on. I don’t know about you but my acc is pretty terrible while eating pasta vs lvl 85+ NMs.

My shell leader would kill me if he saw me idling in a hauby (for now, I’m slowly working on him), but I usually swap in woodsmans, life belt, suppa, chiv for my standing set.

Looking at your sig I’d swap swift belt for life. Otherwise that set should do well. Improvements are pretty obvious, but gear that has -hp is a bad idea like a t sting, especially with you being Taru.

Just make sure your mages use <stpt> and <stal> for all the blinking you will be doing and you have Enmity, Haste and Shield Skill + macroed in as usual. Some mobs just aren’t made for this though. Byakko would be an example of a bad choice, at any given moment he can diaga, triple attack then tp you into the red. All while your mages are drunk / high and paralyna the mnks and sams before you. Not a good time to be down 100def and 20vit.




Edited, Feb 19th 2009 10:09am by Yashnaheen
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#3 Feb 19 2009 at 8:16 AM Rating: Good
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I wouldn't swap swift for life belt.
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#4 Feb 19 2009 at 8:32 AM Rating: Good
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Yashnaheen wrote:
My shell leader would kill me if he saw me idling in a hauby (for now, I’m slowly working on him), but I usually swap in woodsmans, life belt, suppa, chiv for my standing set.


I leave my Hauby on any time my shadows are up. You'd be surprised at it. Really, though, it's only got a touch lower defense than Gallant (which is the most used piece for beginning end game PLDs, anyway) - you don't take all that more damage just because you idle in a Hauby.

Yashnaheen wrote:
Looking at your sig I’d swap swift belt for life. Otherwise that set should do well. Improvements are pretty obvious, but gear that has -hp is a bad idea like a t sting, especially with you being Taru.


-hp isn't a horrible thing, but it should generally be avoided if it is possible. Tiphia Sting is a meh piece (imo), anyway. A single accuracy isn't worth the loss of hp.

Yashnaheen wrote:
Just make sure your mages use <stpt> and <stal> for all the blinking you will be doing and you have Enmity, Haste and Shield Skill + macroed in as usual. Some mobs just aren’t made for this though. Byakko would be an example of a bad choice, at any given moment he can diaga, triple attack then tp you into the red. All while your mages are drunk / high and paralyna the mnks and sams before you. Not a good time to be down 100def and 20vit.


Where are you getting the 100 def deference? I'm assuming you're just estimating it. And, the 20 VIT, as well, for that matter. MOST of the DD gear we have is only a few defense behind the DD gear. It's the loss of VIT and Enmity, really, that kicks in. I practically full time my homam pieces regardless of what I'm fighting. Even Byakko can be blink tanked successfully. And, Haste actually wins out over accuracy so long as you're getting the spell. The chance to swing more often can result in a higher DoT than simply increasing your accuracy can. I find that it's more about hitting the mob for more than 0 rather than just trying to hit the mob. But, again, I only through Gallant on for spells/abilities.
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#5 Feb 19 2009 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I leave my Hauby on any time my shadows are up. You'd be surprised at it. Really, though, it's only got a touch lower defense than Gallant (which is the most used piece for beginning end game PLDs, anyway) - you don't take all that more damage just because you idle in a Hauby.


And:

Quote:

Where are you getting the 100 def deference? I'm assuming you're just estimating it. And, the 20 VIT, as well, for that matter. MOST of the DD gear we have is only a few defense behind the DD gear. It's the loss of VIT and Enmity, really, that kicks in. I practically full time my homam pieces regardless of what I'm fighting. Even Byakko can be blink tanked successfully


No longer an estimate:
-75def
-19vit
-153hp

That is the difference between me idling in some acc accessories vs throwing on my DD gear to idle in. Hauby vs the usual Gallant or Adaman isn't a big deal. 1 piece at a time vs another isn't going to be a big deal. Ammo, head, neck, 2 earrings, body, 2 rings, back, waist together is. If you are missing both homam and askar hands / head, that's 2 more swaps from defense gear to dd gear, again slightly worse and adding to your total.

Perhaps I'm doing it wrong, so Ill tell you what I do. Taking Byakko while /nin as an example again I set a goal of never going under 550 def, 100 vit or swapping gear to go under 1450hp. In this case I can't spare a whole lot, but I can add in 29 ACC including 5 sword skill. Most of the time the majority of the damage is blinked away. Even if he is **** off and triple attack -> ws -> triple attack Ill still be standing there, well into the red while I likely shed enough hate getting mauled for him to turn to my co tank. I'd be standing there far, far less often If I didn't limit how much defensive stats and hp I swap out.

Yes, Byakko can be blinked tanked successfully. A nin in my LS solo tanked him a number of times when the shell was just getting off the ground. Its just not always doable, and I'd prefer to be standing there when he isn't being a nice kitty then just staying alive when he is.

Quote:
-hp isn't a horrible thing, but it should generally be avoided if it is possible. Tiphia Sting is a meh piece (imo), anyway. A single accuracy isn't worth the loss of hp.


-hp is a horrible thing when you swap below your margin of safety vs what is in front of you. This HP mark gets higher as you take out defensive stats. -HP is especially a concern to the OP due to Taruness. Sting is an example of a bad choice, yes.


So I guess the moral is better communication, to rephrase my first post: Set a lower limit to your stats respective to what is in front of you, do not go under it. Set an ACC mark, then do the tp gain math when choosing between a haste piece and an acc piece.
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#6 Feb 19 2009 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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This is a good discustion, I have lately been trying a few different things in Sky, and am goign haste and acc.

I full time Hauby now, as we have a ton of people healing cross pt, I avoid blinking as much as possible.

I have also swaped to eating sushi. But I am still on the fence about sushi.

I am only at

about 490-500 defense,
1400 hp.
90 vit
14 enimity
12% haste

I have noticed a spike in amount of dmg i eat with this set up, but, as I have gotten more comftorable with it, I have noticed a nice increase in Hate.

I am now landing 2 Atonements easily and often 3. If we are rocking and thanks to LS, stuning, paralyna, etc, I have managed to keep shadows up consistently, I have been dishign out 500-730 Atonements.

While this is not a lot of dmg, I am now adding in minimim of 2k and max of 3k dmg(650 spirits, 500, 500, 500 = 2150, add in say 300-500 from melee hits), which makes keeping hate a Breeze. (and I think smothes out the fight)

Without sushi I only get in 1 attonement.

I am still on the fence because, with no def food, I think mistakes are less forgiving.

We have been without a brd most of the time, but I think this set up would only be easier with haste from brd.



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#7 Feb 19 2009 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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WALL OF TEXT WARNING

Yashnaheen wrote:
Quote:
I leave my Hauby on any time my shadows are up. You'd be surprised at it. Really, though, it's only got a touch lower defense than Gallant (which is the most used piece for beginning end game PLDs, anyway) - you don't take all that more damage just because you idle in a Hauby.


And:

Quote:

Where are you getting the 100 def deference? I'm assuming you're just estimating it. And, the 20 VIT, as well, for that matter. MOST of the DD gear we have is only a few defense behind the DD gear. It's the loss of VIT and Enmity, really, that kicks in. I practically full time my homam pieces regardless of what I'm fighting. Even Byakko can be blink tanked successfully


No longer an estimate:
-75def
-19vit
-153hp

That is the difference between me idling in some acc accessories vs throwing on my DD gear to idle in. Hauby vs the usual Gallant or Adaman isn't a big deal. 1 piece at a time vs another isn't going to be a big deal. Ammo, head, neck, 2 earrings, body, 2 rings, back, waist together is. If you are missing both homam and askar hands / head, that's 2 more swaps from defense gear to dd gear, again slightly worse and adding to your total.



OK... What gear are you swapping? Here's mine. Both sets are PLD/NIN and I swap between them based on need (shadows up or down).

Full on tanking gear

MAIN:	Joyeuse 
SUB:	Iron Ram Shield 
RANGE:	No Item 
AMMO:	Bibiki Seashell 
HEAD:	Iron Ram Sallet 
NECK:	Shield Torque 
EAR1:	Buckler Earring 
EAR2:	Merman's Earring 
BODY:	Gallant Surcoat +1 
HANDS:	Iron Ram Dastanas 
RING1:	Hercules' Ring 
RING2:	Rajas Ring 
BACK:	Resentment Cape 
WAIST:	Warwolf Belt 
LEGS:	Iron Ram Hose 
FEET:	Gallant Leggings +1


HP : 1441 
MP : 286 
Att: 399 
Def: 376 
Enm: +23 
STR: 73+17=90 
DEX: 61+10=71 
VIT: 73+18=91 
AGI: 51+00=51 
INT: 50-02=48 
MND: 68+00=68 
CHR: 63+05=68


Tanking with Shadows Up

MAIN:	Joyeuse 
SUB:	Iron Ram Shield 
RANGE:	No Item 
AMMO:	Smart Grenade 
HEAD:	Walahra Turban 
NECK:	Peacock Charm 
EAR1:	Fowling Earring 
EAR2:	Merman's Earring 
BODY:	Haubergeon +1 
HANDS:	Homam Manopolas 
RING1:	Woodsman Ring 
RING2:	Rajas Ring 
BACK:	Amemet Mantle +1 
WAIST:	Swift Belt 
LEGS:	Homam Cosciales 
FEET:	Amir Boots


HP : 1402 
MP : 362 
Att: 432 
Def: 319 
Enm: +3 
STR: 73+21=94 
DEX: 61+11=72 
VIT: 73+03=76 
AGI: 51-05=46 
INT: 50-02=48 
MND: 68+00=68 
CHR: 63+00=63


Difference?

HP: 1402-1441: -39 
MP: 0362-0286: +76 
Att: 432-399 : +33 
Def: 319-376 : -57 
STR:  94-90  : +04 
DEX:  72-71  : +01 
VIT:  76-91  : -15 
AGI:  46-51  : -06 
INT:  48-48  : -00 
MND:  68-68  : -00 
CHR:  63-68  : -05


You're losing 18 more Def, 4 more Vit, and 114 more hp than I am between sets. So, either you've got a **** of a lot better Standard gear than I do or my DD gear has more defensive stats than yours does. And, having tanked Byakko 3-4 times now in this setup, I've yet to die more than once. Maybe I'm just more comfortable with it than you are (presently), maybe I ride the line a bit more than you do or am more comfortable with riding the line than you are, or our support is vastly different. Until we see the gear sets, I don't think we'll know. I also typically eat Cabonoras, which'll boost my hp up (maybe you're calculating food, as well?), but that adds 175 hp to both sets (since they're both above the cap of 175), letting me sit at 1577 or 1616, depending on DD or turtle setup.

Yashnaheen wrote:
Perhaps I'm doing it wrong, so Ill tell you what I do. Taking Byakko while /nin as an example again I set a goal of never going under 550 def, 100 vit or swapping gear to go under 1450hp. In this case I can't spare a whole lot, but I can add in 29 ACC including 5 sword skill. Most of the time the majority of the damage is blinked away. Even if he is **** off and triple attack -> ws -> triple attack Ill still be standing there, well into the red while I likely shed enough hate getting mauled for him to turn to my co tank. I'd be standing there far, far less often If I didn't limit how much defensive stats and hp I swap out.


I think this, right here, makes a big difference. Namely:

Yashnaheen paraphrased wrote:
Goals are: 
Def: 550 
VIT: 100 
HP: 1450


My DEF RARELY, if ever, approaches 550. Notice it's 376 (436 with Prot V) for my heavy defensive set. It's only 319 (376) for my DD set. And, I've never had any issues. So, again, I think you've got a lot more defensive Defense gear than I do. I'm trying to figure out what it is, exactly, too, since I don't see many upgrades I'd think are worth the time/effort to pick up.


Yashnaheen wrote:
Yes, Byakko can be blinked tanked successfully. A nin in my LS solo tanked him a number of times when the shell was just getting off the ground. Its just not always doable, and I'd prefer to be standing there when he isn't being a nice kitty then just staying alive when he is.


Agreed, and NIN has an easier time of this than PLD, anyway. Four shadows from Ni helps a lot when you get Triple Attacked.

Yashnaheen wrote:
Quote:
-hp isn't a horrible thing, but it should generally be avoided if it is possible. Tiphia Sting is a meh piece (imo), anyway. A single accuracy isn't worth the loss of hp.


-hp is a horrible thing when you swap below your margin of safety vs what is in front of you. This HP mark gets higher as you take out defensive stats. -HP is especially a concern to the OP due to Taruness. Sting is an example of a bad choice, yes.


My HP total looks a LOT higher than your baseline to begin with. So, I don't recall a position where I get that close to hitting 0 without going from mostly full, anyway.

Specifically, however, I was referring to CE loss, anyway. Again, my "margin for safety" is apparently higher than yours. My lowest hp is 1577 in DD gear, 127 points higher than your safety margin for Byakko. Maybe that's why I'm not sweating a little -hp. Notice, I don't really have any in my build as it stands, anyway.

Yashnaheen wrote:
So I guess the moral is better communication, to rephrase my first post: Set a lower limit to your stats respective to what is in front of you, do not go under it. Set an ACC mark, then do the tp gain math when choosing between a haste piece and an acc piece.


I'll agree to this - I just set some of my marks far lower than you do. Hence, our disagreement.

Edit: Making it a little more readible... still a wall of text.

Edited, Feb 19th 2009 6:43pm by Dracoth

Edited, Feb 19th 2009 6:48pm by Dracoth
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#8 Feb 19 2009 at 10:33 PM Rating: Good
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You have like 350 more HP than me..... >_<

Anyway, if you're going to use a DD standing set, you need to make sure it's worth a damn. My first time on Byakko I wasn't sure what to expect, so I mixed and matched. I tanked less than half as much as my co-tank, and parsed about 25% accuracy. Now I know that I either need to use my "tanking" gear or pump myself full of accuracy. Hint hint, I chose accuracy. Although I use carbonara because of my **** HP.

TurboTom wrote:
Apparently, from what I can gather, the generally accepted idea is Haste + Accuracy + Refresh.

I would say that's exactly right.
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#9 Feb 20 2009 at 1:20 AM Rating: Good
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Just use full adaman gear like the rest of Ragnarok, Tom. Jesus

Peacock Charm/Parade Gorget*, Brutal Earring, Homam Manopolas are obvious improvements if you are shooting for Atonement spam.



*I'm a firm believe in always idling in at least one piece of Refresh gear, because instead of only getting 20 mp/minute from auto-refresh alone, you're getting 40. That's a free Flash or (almost) Cure 3 you could be used for hate. And until you get Ares's body, Parade Gorget is the next best thing for Auto-Refresh for PLD, cause fuck idling in a vermy lol.
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#10 Feb 20 2009 at 2:13 AM Rating: Good
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I idle in

head: Turban
neck: Peacock charm /parade
body: Avalon
hands: Homam
ring1: Snipers ring
ring2: Ulthalams ring
ear1: Brutal
ear2: Ethereal
Back: Cerb mantle
waist: Swift
legs: Lolcrimson
Feet: Homam

Im thinking of tossing my bushi for supp :3 dont tell the sam community :x

When I have a co-tank I use dual swords, depending on what HNM im fighting. Ive used this idle gear even before I had Atonement. Basically I have like 1400 HP and for me thats enough for most things. Most things dont take me down that they wouldnt of taken me down had I had HP gear. Hi2U tiamat DA crits for 900s >_>

I generally macro most things in and out. I cant say how much HP you should have on you. Thats something you need to work around and see how your mages do. More HP is usually to help your mages keep you up. Chances are, if youre taking damage, your shadows are down, while youre casting shadows you cant cast cures on you. So in that time you need to basically have the HP to stay alive for your tank or mages to toss you one to keep ya up for a sec. How much HP that is , again cant say, ppl just feel 1500-1600 is the sweet spot.


Haste+Acc+refesh is made of win.

Edited, Feb 20th 2009 2:14am by hitoseijuro
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#11 Feb 20 2009 at 5:05 AM Rating: Decent
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#12 Feb 20 2009 at 7:46 AM Rating: Decent
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hitoseijuro wrote:

Haste+Acc+refesh is made of win.


Those are the most important things. Keep you hitting and fast to keep up enmity, and refresh is a nice plus.

If you can stack Enmity on top of that its great too.
#13 Feb 20 2009 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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Just out of curiosity what events/mobs are you guys talking about doing this for?
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#14 Feb 20 2009 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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I've used my above setup on all of the Sky Gods (including Kirin), Omega, and all of the Tier I and II ZNMs I've been a part of. Only had one Ultima so far and as a LS, we made the mistake of starting the zerg at 25%... Needless to say, we got hammered right about 20% and weren't fully able to recover. Got him down to 3%ish before getting wiped, which says something about our tenacity. All of the sea gods that I've been a part of have been kited (so far), mostly because I didn't make it to as many Sea runs as I would have liked. The first time I try something, I usually look at using my "Full On" tanking gear first until I get more comfortable with the fight, but as I "grew up" as a DD PLD, I've recognized it's uses. Fast macros and careful attention more than make up for the loss of Defense and Vit that I have.
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#15 Feb 20 2009 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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Fisban wrote:
Just out of curiosity what events/mobs are you guys talking about doing this for?


Sky Gods, Omega and Ultima, Zeni NMs, obviously Dynamis.

Haven't tried it on any Jailers yet, we usually low-man them so we haven't gone out as a group doing them in awhile.
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#16 Feb 20 2009 at 11:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fisban wrote:
Just out of curiosity what events/mobs are you guys talking about doing this for?

Omega,dyamis,Gears ZNM(other tiers I do as blm :x), Jailor of Temperance, Jailor of Faith(after getting him to 75% or 50% on the first volley of nukes ill kite it). Tiamat, Khim, Cerberus, Sand Worm+ BCNM mobs inside, Faf/nidd, Aspid, Dark Ixion(sometimes I idle in just shield gear and macro haste for shadow/flash coz he hits pretty fast at times).

I havent been in sky in a long long time, most of my gear has been upgraded, but Id probably still idle in it, and on byakko have my shield gear ready for macro if Im low on stuns or w/e.

You can really get by with not carrying a lot of hp in your gear for more haste and acc, but just remember, its really your backup, support or w/e that will help you know if you have enough HP.

Last night we had a lot of new members at Cerberus........worst fight ive ever been to, lets just say I took 14 or so Gates, Ill leave the rest for you in silence to know what happen. No right amount of HP gear(that wouldnt gimp me) would of helped, it all boiled down to being on top of stuns :/
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#17 Feb 20 2009 at 11:33 PM Rating: Good
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Double post.....hmmm

Edited, Feb 20th 2009 11:34pm by hitoseijuro
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#18 Feb 23 2009 at 5:16 AM Rating: Decent
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So do you guys melee Omega? I keep switching back and forth on whether or not to do that. I fought him for the first time since getting Atonement a little while ago, so I figured I'd try engaging, and between the hate resets and damage reduction he never took more than 200 damage.
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#19 Feb 23 2009 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
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Depending on the mode (2 legs, 4 legs, hybrid at the last 20%ish), Omega has a varying physical damage/magical damage resistance. I still melee him (I've only used the melee setup above once on him), but I don't have Atonement yet (stupid sword just won't drop for me) so I can't speak for it. I do remember others saying that it'll be resisted at varying times.

Still, 200 damage is 200 damage. My Spirits Within usually got a little closer to 4-500, if I remember correctly, but I think that was in 4 legs mode.
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#20 Feb 23 2009 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Because my ls doesn't do visible gear swaps, my idle set is(and this varies depending on what the mob is):

Hauteclaire/Terror Shield/Rosenbogen
assjamer/parade gorget/buckler earring/ethereal
parade/homam/Sattva/BQ Ring
shadow mantle/warwolf/homam/homam

If I could do visible swaps, I'd go:
Haute/Terror/Rosen
Valhalla/gorget/buckler/ethereal
valhalla/homam/sattva/bq
shadow/warwolf/homam/gallant +1

Then on hate spells, i'd swap to
haute/terror/rosen
assjamer/ritter/hades +1/hades +1
parade/homam/sattva/hercules
cerberus/warwolf/hydra/askar

When I say hate spells, I also mean cures. My flash macro wouldn't switch homam to hydra, and it would put on homam over gallant or askar. Cures get the max enmity setup.

For a new paladin, a good starting standing set is
beavertail +1/koenig/whatever
turban/parade/buckler/cassie
gallant/dusk/hercules/get sattva or bq ring or something good. no jelly ring, please.
resentment/warwolf/adaman/gallant

That gives you 23 enmity which isn't bad. It also has 10% haste, 13 shield skill, and some decent hp.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2009 4:18pm by Asdrabael
#21 Feb 23 2009 at 4:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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I do Omega in a DD setup, damage is damage, and you can bust out 500-600 Spirits on him. (Not sure on Atonement, I fail at Nyzul since I'm doing Salvage so much)

As noted by Asdrabael, you need to find out if your LS allows or can support (by going through the arduous task of making macros in <stpt> or <stal>) a blinking tank. That will give you a starting ground and from there you can macro in DD gear as appropriate.

My current standing set when I'm DD-tanking is:

Joytoy/Koenig/Lamia+1
Turban or Ares/Fort Torque or Parade/Brutal/Suppa
Hauby +1/Homam/Ulthalams/Snipers or Sattva or BQR
Charger Mantle/Swift/Valor (QQ no Homam legs yet)/Homam

297-304 Sword, 10-15% Haste, 29-46 ACC, 31-43 Attack, combined with Pizza and you've got a good chance of contributing a decent amount of damage while tanking.

My LS has all of the WHMs using <stpt> and <stal> macros so we're free to blink like cheap christmas trees, so I swap into full Shield/Haste for Ichi, Haste for Ni, Haste/Enmity for Flash, Haste for Reprisal/Enmity for JAs and Cures, Shield for getting hit, etc etc.

I admit all the blinking will probably cause seizures at some point but oh well :P
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#22 Feb 23 2009 at 9:11 PM Rating: Good
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NCCoda wrote:
I admit all the blinking will probably cause seizures at some point but oh well :P


My Linkshell refers to me as Mr. Blinky over Vent.

"MR. BLINKY!!! MOVE TO THE STANDARD POSITION, DAMNIT!!! !@#$!!!"

But, they're used to it and I haven't died in a while. Our main WHM (who due to computer issues hasn't been on lately) types everything, anyway, and never complained about my blinking BEFORE BlinkMeNot hit, so I've been blinking my full endgame career. It just drives my brother (and our main thief) nuts. He adapted fast, though.
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Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
#23 Feb 27 2009 at 12:57 AM Rating: Good
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145 posts
Well you can make your Standing gear more defensive or offensive for whatever situation you find yourself in. You could include -DMG items such as Valhalla gear, jelly and defending rings, and Askar feet if your going to take a ridiculous beating (AV comes to mind). Obviously Parade gorget and Ares's Cuirass are great choices for the refresh effect. Gearing more towards DD in an Idle is a great option but I personally have other macros for TPing builds. Shadow ring is a great option for Idle as well as in a -MDT/MDB build.

Really depends on your style there are so many ways to approach this based on what you want. The important thing is that you have other builds for all your actions, if those are weak it doesn't really matter what you Idle in.
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Clayton of Ifrit
75 PLD WAR RDM
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