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Valor SurcoatFollow

#1 Feb 16 2009 at 7:19 PM Rating: Decent
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So! For any PLD who has gotten Valor Surcoat, how long did it take you to get it? Ive heard some PLDs say it took them 4years, im really hoping my luck isnt that bad. ; ;
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#2 Feb 16 2009 at 8:04 PM Rating: Decent
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3 years, got it a week before they increased dynamis drop rate :)
With increased drop rate, I wouldn't be too pessimistic if I were you. Good luck!
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#3 Feb 16 2009 at 8:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Your "luck" depends on a great many things, such as how often you do Dynamis, how often your LS does Xarc or Tavnazia, what their lotting rules are, and how many people are ahead of you.

Edit: I've been playing for 4 years and got my Surcoat last week, but I didn't do Dynamis regularly until the price-change and we spent a lot of time doing Cities (never again, thank you COP zones dropping City AF) and COP zones. First Surcoat for us dropped on our (4th?) Xarcabard.

Edited, Feb 16th 2009 11:27pm by NCCoda
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#4 Feb 16 2009 at 8:41 PM Rating: Good
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#5 Feb 16 2009 at 11:50 PM Rating: Good
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hate you D:
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#6 Feb 17 2009 at 12:51 AM Rating: Good
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Hello, I'm the leader of the Kazoku Dynamis linkshell on Fenrir. I saw your post in the job section menu so I'll try and take a stab to answer that question^^


Your luck on obtaining the Valor Surcoat depends on 3 factors: 1) the frequency of your shell doing Xarcabard, 2) your competition among your fellow members of the linkshell and 3) farming efficiency within Xarcabard. The first and second categories are probably the biggest obstacles any plds will face when trying to obtain the surcoat. Generally, you want to be in a linkshell that does Xarcabard as often as possible (2-3 runs per month) if you're wishing to see a low to moderate movement in the AF line. Your competition also matters big time. If you have recently entered a linkshell with 4-5 people ahead of you, you can definitely expect to wait for the item 2-4 months before you get to the top three. The only way to break this bubble is to either keep up your pace in points hoping that your competitors will waste their points on other items or simply get involved with leadership roles and perform various tasks like being a main tank and such. Lastly, farming efficiency is very important because the rate of AF drops depends on how well your linkshell handles mobs. You can actually gauge this efficiency once you clear all of the tower NMs. Having 1 hour 30 min to 2 hours left on the clock after the last tower NM & time extension is dead is a good sign of linkshell progress. Clocking out of Xarcabard before or during the clearing the wall of eyes is a very bad sign of farming efficiency.


Most of my top PLDs in my shell have received their Valor bodies in various ways, some are lucky, some are not. Since the start of the shell, my oldest member PLD recieved his Valor Surcoat in 6 months since he joined. Thereafter, 2 recieved Valor bodies 3 weeks after that run (1 from NM, 1 from regular mob SE from the Wall of Eyes). We recieved several more and I'm observing its probably 1 out of every 4-5 Xarc runs.


Anyways, the point is don't despair about this item, it is certainly obtainable however you must figure out where your position is because 40% of getting this item is based on where you are in this linkshell for priority, 30% is based on farming efficiency, and 30% is based on the luck of it dropping.


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#7 Feb 17 2009 at 6:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I was lucky lol took me about 3 months maybe 4 of being a 75 PLD but, another pld had 55+ xarc runs no surcoat. In my new dyna shell we had 3 surcoats drop in one run.
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#8 Feb 17 2009 at 7:16 AM Rating: Decent
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We are doing Xarc this weekend, and I should be first in line for it, ill know once the points are updated. If anything im second in line for it. Last Xarc run we did PLD body dropped, so maybe it will drop for us again lol.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 10:18am by Markynaz
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#9 Feb 17 2009 at 9:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Why is it though that all the idiots get Valor Surcoat above the players that actually know what they're doing?

Last Xarcabard run we did Surcoat went to a PLD who full times Valor Boots and Durendal.

/facepalm
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#10 Feb 17 2009 at 9:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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I started Dynamis in 2005, and our LS only saw 2 surcoats between that time and the time I left them spring '08. One was in 2005 around christmas, and the other was in 2007 fall/christmas time. So roughly 2 years apart. In 08, after I left, and after the increase drop rates in northlands update happened, we saw 2 coats drop on...the same night I believe. If not, it was within a 2 week period(the interval in which I spoke with a friend in the shell). Our RDM hat drop rate was the same, and we got one hat before the drop rate update, and one or two after the update, whereas previously we only had one EVER drop from the shell's inception, in early 2004.

Fear not my friend. Those who waited 2-4 years are those who finally got theirs near/around the time of the update. Newer PLD's who are just entering into Dynamis will find it much easier. I'd say expect somewhere between 2 months and 1 year, max.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 11:36am by FenrirXIII
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#11 Feb 17 2009 at 9:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Here's my Surcoat story...

After 41 straight beaudicine glacier runs without getting my DRG relic body (and I was at the top of my shell's list by a lot), I finally got my drop and had my 5/5 for DRG. I switched my main lot then to PLD, paid my fee for switching my main lot, and waited the 2 weeks (as our rules stipulate) for eligability.

The first Xarcabard run we did after I was eligable to lot, a Surcoat dropped at the last camp before the princes. I passed my opportunity to lot (still being way ahead on points)for one of my shell's cornerstone PLDs. 20 minutes later (give or take), the PLD prince felt generous and dropped a second Surcoat for the run, which I was gently encouraged to lot on, making me 5/5 on PLD relic. 2 completed relic sets within a month.
#12 Feb 17 2009 at 9:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Why is it though that all the idiots get Valor Surcoat above the players that actually know what they're doing?

Last Xarcabard run we did Surcoat went to a PLD who full times Valor Boots and Durendal.

/facepalm


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#13 Feb 17 2009 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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i sense a few people are upset with amdgsrt's story. (at least one **** hurt person anyhow). Nice to know people will pass up good af2 for someone else that they care about who is next in line.

I was waiting for pld for probobly 8 months but it finally dropped for me(thats 8 months @1 - around an extra 8 months waiting in line to just be @1 lol). Got a few dents for it in sky shortly after lol.

edit somehow i double post to extra story for yall!

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 12:58pm by Xellith
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#14 Feb 17 2009 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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I've passed on surcoat for my paladin like 3 times now, so I don't have to toss it when I finish my ares body.

Its a good body, but theres a million alternatives to it available, and 2 enmity over gallant won't make or break you.
#15 Feb 17 2009 at 10:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Its a good body, but theres a million alternatives to it available, and 2 enmity over gallant won't make or break you.


But it's so shiny T_T
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#16 Feb 17 2009 at 10:23 AM Rating: Good
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I can't argue against the Ares piece... but the Surcoat's latent Cover effect should be its selling point regardless if you're a 35piece or a few imperial wootz ingots short of completion.

At the very least... You can always store the entire set

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 1:25pm by amdgsrt
#17 Feb 17 2009 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
I've been doing dynamis for about 3 or 4 years now and not once have I seen a surcoat drop. My LS has only gotten around 3-5 surcoats total from Xarcabard. It just really hates to give us PLD relic. On a side note, we got 5 RDM hats after about a year of no hats so maybe there's still luck there for PLD.
#18 Feb 17 2009 at 12:47 PM Rating: Default
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amdgsrt wrote:
I can't argue against the Ares piece... but the Surcoat's latent Cover effect should be its selling point regardless if you're a 35piece or a few imperial wootz ingots short of completion.

At the very least... You can always store the entire set

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 1:25pm by amdgsrt


I won't get the rest of the set either because the effects are too small to even waste inv space on them. The boots would be ok in the rare occasions I blood tank, but I rarely blood tank. My paladin is more the backup "this just popped so we need a fast good tank" tank. Legs I already have hydra, IR, wlegs, mlegs, and homam. There is no situation where I'd ever use legs. Hands? Not worth carrying for an extra 10 damage to bash. Head? Wooowwww, 15 more seconds on rampart.

Body is the only piece that I could ever use, since the latent cover effect is so utterly useless (I can't imagine a single situation I'd ever use it....I've never even ever had to Cover anyone, ever). Co-Tanks either survive or are 1-shot. Theres no room or time to cover. And I can't imagine ever attempting to Cover someone at a Fafhogg, tiamat, or any other thing I'd ever see myself tanking.

The pieces do have uses, but my inventory can't handle carrying them for the incredibly small series of uses while I collect them, and then take them out.
#19 Feb 17 2009 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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you cover for the latent not to cover them
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#20 Feb 17 2009 at 1:02 PM Rating: Default
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The latent involves getting punched in the face and recovering MP. I don't get hit, and I'm not going to intentionally cover the cotank, then drop shadows and let the mob hit me for 30 seconds.

In a situation where you have a high chance of being hit anyway, and you have to cover someone, its worth having. But the fact that in every situation I tank theres no such thing as Cover since it only covers your own party, makes the surcoat latent suck.

I know you cover for the latent. Thats pretty no crap.
#21 Feb 17 2009 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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I finally got mine, 2 years after joining my dyna shell. In that time, I saw one other drop.

To be more clear, I had two other sets 5/5, 2/5RDM, and 4/5DRG (with Armet) before I got my valor body.
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#22 Feb 17 2009 at 4:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Asdrabael wrote:
I don't get hit


Never ever ever ever?
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#23 Feb 17 2009 at 5:06 PM Rating: Decent
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NCCoda wrote:
Asdrabael wrote:
I don't get hit


Never ever ever ever?


Rarely enough that I'd rather wear something for a better use than for a maybe proc during a Cover situation that will never happen.

Theres a million better idle pieces.
#24 Feb 17 2009 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Got the body for my lvl 62 pld not very long ago. I had always wanted to lvl pld to 75 so I actually put that in my /seacom all the time when we do dynamis just in case all 75 plds have it and it doesn't go to someone with lvl 1 pld. So finally I got it after being lvl 62 for 1 year or so, now my pld is lvl 70 and going to be 75 soon. I have always had been this way, getting gears before I have the job at 75. I had drg af2 5/5 and pld af2 5/5 before reach 65. I just like lvling into gears I got, that gives me the greatest thrill.

Doing so without lotting over any lvl 75 of the above jobs? priceless... all those were lotted after all lvl 75s have it. :D
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#25 Feb 17 2009 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
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Asdrabael wrote:
NCCoda wrote:
Asdrabael wrote:
I don't get hit


Never ever ever ever?


Rarely enough that I'd rather wear something for a better use than for a maybe proc during a Cover situation that will never happen.

Theres a million better idle pieces.


But you said "I don't get hit", not "I don't get hit enough to warrant etc etc".
There's a clear difference.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 10:32pm by NCCoda
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#26 Feb 17 2009 at 10:28 PM Rating: Decent
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In my first ever dynamis xarca run it dropped.

I was a 75 PLD for probably about a year and a half before that run.

I can feel the hatred!

#27 Feb 17 2009 at 11:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Why are people fighting about the cover effect on Surcoat? Asdrabael, basically sum'd it up. Imo, Cover is a crappy ability, Im sorry but it is for /nin. You want to use cover, best way to make the best of it is as /war in dyna or something, if you go /war to dyna.

Basically, your dropping your shields to take damage to replenish your mp? The only time you need mp is to either keep yourself alive, another member live, or for hate. Taking damage is going to drop your CE, but you got mp back ,so you cure youself, so your doing 2 things, gaining the CE you lost and losing the mp you just got. Putting you back at square one. I dont see you gaining anything more than a few measly CE points, if youre that disperate for hate, someones doing it wrong.

And Im not up for giving the mob a chance to double attack crit me either...
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#28 Feb 17 2009 at 11:27 PM Rating: Decent
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The problem is, if you ever say that 1 gear that looks pretty isn't 100% as good and useful as another gear, then people are going to fight for no reason.

Lots of paladins dream of getting valor surcoat (why nowadays, i dunno. Its just some average eyecandy gear), and I said its ok but i'd never waste inventory space on an item that I might not use once in a 6 month period. Its not that the gear is bad, its just that its skill enhancement sucks, and theres other gear available with better stats.

Plus I'm an elitist, so I have a few fanboys who follow me and rate me down whereever I go.
#29 Feb 18 2009 at 12:15 AM Rating: Good
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I'm just chop-bustin ya Asdrabael, I don't rate anyone down for expressing their thoughts :P

I do kinda hate that the Surcoat will see such limited useage when I finish Ares's, but my inventory isn't so clogged that I can't keep it on me for JAs/Flash.
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#30 Feb 18 2009 at 1:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Im not hating on Surcoat. I actually like it.I always wanted to get one. But now that I have other idling pieces, I dont need it.

Its basically this, if you dont have Atonement, and AF the only piece you have, Surcoat is very nice. However, if you do have Atonement, imo, hauby will do much better than having 4enm. If you want to be a maximizer and macro it into your flashes for the added 7CE, thats fine, or any JA/cure.

Atm, I have Avalon, and will soon be working for an Ares body piece. Id probably keep Avalon still until I could get a Hydra drop........which means ill probably never sell my Avalon as by that time it will be worth 2 gil (._. )
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#31 Feb 18 2009 at 1:51 AM Rating: Decent
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My ls doesn't do visible gear swaps either, so I couldn't keep surcoat even for that.
#32 Feb 18 2009 at 5:57 AM Rating: Good
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Ive used the plenty in low-man wyrm fights when mp actually becomes an issue. I don't understand why it covers its attacks in the air (which are magical as far as I know since resist gear/ rampart works on them) but ill swap it on, refill my mp and be good to go. This shouldn't be an issue with a full ally etc, but you won't always have that with you =P

Endgame isn't the only thing to do either =P I can't personally think of a time I needed it in a mission, but I was done with them all when I got it lol. Im sure there are plenty of situations outside of endgame where it would come in handy.

It's true, you would probably never need it if everything always went perfect, but people dont't always have the perfect set up available to them. To some it may be a waste of space, but to the person that wants to optimize their performance for every single possible situation in the game, it's a great piece to have.
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#33 Feb 18 2009 at 5:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I received mine about 5 months after joining the ls. dropped from the "Very Last" mob in dyna-xarcabard(Full moon =o) with 30 secs remaining....LS Leaders were screaming for everyone to pass... it was awesome. Just stay positive and go to all your runs and get as many points as you can... or good luck if you're in Free lot ls <.<
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#34 Feb 19 2009 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't even want it, yhelothar Hydra Haubert.
#35 Feb 20 2009 at 5:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Last night my ls had our first Xarc run, during which I was chatting with one of the other plds casually, we got to the NM's and after clearing the first few groups with no drops I jokingly told them about the supposedly higher drop rate on nm's, I then go on and say that I don't believe a word of it, just as I say that Pld nm dies and drops my Surcoat... we laugh and I explain what just happened to another friend who laughs and says yeah higher drops were a joke, as he said this Thf nm dies and drops for a very good friend of mine.

Whilst not conclusive, when in doubt complain about things lol.
#36 Feb 20 2009 at 7:00 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Whilst not conclusive, when in doubt complain about things lol.


my LS actually has a running joke about the amount of times that **** has led to AF2. When we dont get any AF2 people get accused of not **** hard enough lol :P

a lot of the time i say on teamspeak "WHERE IS THE GOD **** AF TWO!?" and then we get WAR body or BST hands drop >.> wish we got as many rdm hats as we did war and bst..
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#37 Feb 22 2009 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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4 years, going on 5. Still don't have it unfortunately. I've had pretty bad luck when it came to that one piece. I believe I am 1st in line for lotting it against someone else in my shell though, so hopefully I get lucky and am able to get it soon. But with my luck, probably not.
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#38 Feb 22 2009 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
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Just got Valor Surcoat today in dynamis. Cant wait to finish dynamis and go use it! lol
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#39 Mar 05 2009 at 11:04 PM Rating: Default
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Now, in my defense, I haven't been to this forum for a long long time.

That said...

Am I hearing people right in saying they are calling Surcoat the "Situational" piece and the 8mil+ Verm-Cloak the *far* better "Fulltime" option?

Tsk Tsk...I thought better of some of you older players.


Quote:
Lots of paladins dream of getting valor surcoat (why nowadays, i dunno. Its just some average eyecandy gear)


You can buy MP meds, only eye candy here is full-time-pld-ares-body.

Get a vile exlier or a VC to wear in-between targets, and wear the extra enmity.

End game speaking of course.

Whatever you want to wear in Dynamis or whatever is your own issue.

Ares fulltime is good for a handful of jobs, drg/support, drk with enough accuracy and uhh... a rampart macro?

But really? 8Mil for 1MP a tic, (12 vit? yay rampart?)? Far superior over Valor Surcoat?


Quote:
and theres other gear available with better stats.


Yeah! Hydra Hauberk! Avalon Breastplate? Yes, I will totally agree with those two pieces being the far better options. I have a funny feeling we are not speaking of either of those two.


Quote:
I've passed on surcoat for my paladin like 3 times now, so I don't have to toss it when I finish my ares body
.

I'm a pretty level-guy. Really! I promise... but wow.. You go chief! Toss that worthless piece of **** for your waste-of-time-because-I-could-have-spent-8-mil-in-MP-meds.

You can't buy enmity. End of story.

Meh, maybe im too old fashioned for this. Maybe i'm trying to apply silly things like "logic" and "reason' to these situations.

I'll go back to lurking.


Edit: At this point, i'd like to point out that if the discussion was Avalon Breastplate I would 100% support it.

As that is an actual superior piece of equipment,and not horribly hard to come by. It wins, hands down.


...Really...Ares Body?...Am I reading this right? Am I reading the pld forums and not the drg or drk?

Is this the same "M-Body is amazing for everything I do! Lets full time that crap!" Crowd?

Edited, Mar 6th 2009 2:24am by midgardDamac

Edited, Mar 6th 2009 2:25am by midgardDamac
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#40 Mar 05 2009 at 11:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Just got my Are's body so I'm playing around with different setups, but the three points I can make so far:

1. The 1mp/tick helps over the course of a long fight, 2mp/tick naturally becomes 3mp/tick with it, which becomes 6mp/tick with Refresh, which etc etc, more Refresh is never a bad thing since you should never be sitting at full MP.

2. I'm hating the ACC loss from not idling in a Hauby +1, I'm not whiffing all the time but I am missing more than I would like, although it remains to be seen if this is accurate or if it's just me freaking out and feeling like my ACC took a nosedive. (Haven't parsed is what I mean)

3. I macro my Valor in Flash and JAs, so I'm not losing anything there, I'm having the same Enmity gain combined with more Refresh.

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#41 Mar 06 2009 at 1:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Midgarddamac wrote:
A lot of stuff


sh*t always has been and always will be situational.

Valor surcoat is an JA/CURE/Atonement/Cover piece.

Haub(+1), Homam, avalon - all superior Idle for most situations.

Ares's body - Great low mp idle, great for holding mobs where your focus is more on staying alive than dealing damage/spamming hate.

Plenty of other body options.



NCCoda wrote:
2. I'm hating the ACC loss from not idling in a Hauby +1, I'm not whiffing all the time but I am missing more than I would like, although it remains to be seen if this is accurate or if it's just me freaking out and feeling like my ACC took a nosedive. (Haven't parsed is what I mean)


Assuming none of the ACC from haub+1 was wasted (Only needing some of it to cap 95%), 7.5% Hit rate is a pretty noticeable hit% decrease.


I currently Idle in Homam body, and ares's gets swapped on when under 70% MP, thanks to spellcast.

Edited, Mar 6th 2009 4:52am by Kaolas
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#42 Mar 06 2009 at 2:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Ares is the end-all best idle piece to tank in if you're not going acc for some reason.

There is -never- a time as paladin if you're not just standing with your thumb up your **** that you should be full of mp. If you're not curing other people in the ally, you should be spam curing yourself. You're not a nin/drk or rdm/nin, you don't have lots of fast spells to use, so you have to use cures to keep the mobs attention on you. If you need acc, you can eat sushi.

Avalon, in the average hnm fight, is really only useful for its accuracy. 4 minutes in, all that enmity you're trying to stack onto your body just stopped working because you capped hate. Now all you have to do is spam spells and maintain. Oh wait, theres a useful body that leaves the hat open that gives you more mp and makes you hit harder so you get less 0's while meleeing for atonement!

Other bodies are situationally useful, but ares is useful in more situations than all the others.
#43 Mar 06 2009 at 6:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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midgardDamac wrote:
You can't buy enmity. End of story.


Adaman body is +3 enmity and only 100k. 1% is not a huge deal, hell, use that free gallant body which is almost as good.

I understand what you actually meant, as far meds etc... but you don't full time enmity. You macro it in, so Valor surcoat is not amazingly useful. Its a very situational piece. Don't get me wrong, I love it in those situations, but they aren't very common, especially compared to the amount of time you would use Avalon or Ares.
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#44 Mar 11 2009 at 1:56 AM Rating: Decent
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I've had mine for a few years now. Took ages to get though back then.
#45 Mar 12 2009 at 11:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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midgardDamac wrote:
But really? 8Mil for 1MP a tic, (12 vit? yay rampart?)? Far superior over Valor Surcoat?

Yes it is. Take a look at it like this. After a few minutes, you're going to hit your hate cap. Sure it will drop here and there very little. However, youll be spamming your spells still or ws(if atonement is available). Thus keeping your VE from depleting on its self.

As you reach this point, most of all your emnity is generally going to waste as it wont take much to bounce hate between you and your co-tank, or if soloing, it wont take much to keep hitting your VE cap. Youll find that you could maintain your hate without so much of your emnity on as what youll be relying on wont be huge amounts of emnity but basically lower recasting timers.

Therefore its much more helpful that 1 extra tic of mp. More importantly because its always on. With parade it requires you to fulfil a requirement.

Btw the str and att on ares also helps you not hit for 0s on HNMs you are fighting, small bonus, but a bonus none the less.

Its only 4 emnity, take off your mac+1 and tank, youll see you wont suffer any loss from it. Unless you are really hurting in emnity to begin with, and if you are that shouldnt alter Ares performance. Ares is a good piece, whether its a good piece for you, or someone else, I can not say as I dont know the rest of the gear or circumstance. Again, the piece itself is good, how it performance is up to the person equiping it.
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#46 Mar 12 2009 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
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Ares's vs. Valor is a pretty pointless argument for people that have both, since idling in Enmity gear purely for the Enmity isn't doing much vs. the ability to either damage the mob or get MP back faster to spam cures more often.

Also, you can macro Valor into Cover if you tend to Cover people often, and you can even macro it into all of your JAs, Flash, Cures, or some combination of those. (In before another stupid blinking argument)
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#47 Mar 12 2009 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I think we missed my point, in that the majority of your time spend in most events on pld, will be spent building hate through your MP.

"Idle" time is so few and far between and it can fit a number of descriptions depending on what you're doing but during an actual fight it doesn't work.

The majority of your hate is gained through Cures. We can all agree you can reach cap fairly quickly but holding and maintaining that cap takes effort, more than most would give credit for.

I stepped out of end game but do monsters no longer do AoEs? Cast spells? Have shadow stripping TP moves? Am I missing something? Hate is easy to cap, but to claim once you're there your job is done is pretty silly.

Macro'ing in Valor Surcoat for cures, flashes, job abilites, cover etc. What time does that actually leave you in the other situational pieces? (again, endgame, high-end fights only) Seriously think about this. My playstyle makes it so I am rarely just sitting there "swinging" or idiling, but hey, that's just me!

In short, you can argue that "it keeps me hitting for 0's" but let's be honest here; that seems to be a tried excuse that can be met by doing a very large number of other things. Cerb Mantle? maybe a ring slot? Fort Torque full-time perhaps? orr... Maybe finish those sword merits to begin with?

I'll cede that Atonement has changed alot of equipment options and viability when it comes to hate holding. On that same note, it seems Ares loses even still, bringing 0 accuracy to the table, why this over a Haub (Still has attack and str), Homam, or even the best of the pick being Avalon? Accuracy, enmity and a bit of damage negation all rolled into one, seems to me a silly argument.

Does Ares have it's situational use? For sure! Dynamis I could say it would be a wonderful piece, DDing on lower tier targets, IE: Limbus etc. Also very good.

Is Ares worth the money to be "full timed" over most everything else? Not even close.

I think we're not looking at each piece stat by stat. It looks neat, it's the hardest to come by for *most* people. It has a couple neat tricks, but it doesn't get the job done at the end of the day. Each person has their own play-style, but don't come harking that it is the only way to do it, or even the better way.

If you're idling what importance is the head piece then! If you're doing something, you should be wearing something else. I think this is logic? Cures, Flash, JA's, recasts on shadows, are we honestly not doing anything for that long?



Edited, Mar 12th 2009 9:54pm by midgardDamac
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#48 Mar 12 2009 at 8:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I think we missed my point, in that the majority of your time spend in most events on pld, will be spent building hate through your MP.

Thats basically everyones point for Ares. The majority of time youll be spending casting spells, which is where the refresh affect becomes potent.

The enmity on valor surcoat is only going to give you 7CE/51VE on your flashes and roughly about the same on your cures. In a 30 minute fight, you are going to get 600mp back from the 1tic of refresh on ares body. Thats 24 flashes or 13 cure IIIs or 6 cure IVs that you got to squeeze out of the mp that ares provided you with.

Is it worth the cost? I dont think so, though Id be willing to pay 8mil for it. The 8mil isnt the killer, its the drop rate (._. ).

Valor surcoat is indeed a good piece, but if it came to deciding whether Id equip the surcoat or Ares. It be Ares, for me.

Then again, why not have both? There are fights that youll see yourself usually needing MP(for me thats cerb) and other fights where you never have to worry about MP so much(for me thats khim). In those situations you could decide for youself, emnity body or refresh body. Or both and blink, to each their own.





Edited, Mar 12th 2009 9:18pm by hitoseijuro
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#49 Mar 12 2009 at 8:22 PM Rating: Good
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midgardDamac wrote:
I think we missed my point, in that the majority of your time spend in most events on pld, will be spent building hate through your MP.


You're going to argue this and still claim that the refresh isn't as helpful? Really?

midgardDamac wrote:
"Idle" time is so few and far between and it can fit a number of descriptions depending on what you're doing but during an actual fight it doesn't work.


To me, I'll define "Idle" time as time not spent casting or using a job ability. Basically, when I'm swinging my swords.

midgardDamac wrote:
The majority of your hate is gained through Cures. We can all agree you can reach cap fairly quickly but holding and maintaining that cap takes effort, more than most would give credit for.


Umm.... I don't know about you, but Cures help me maintain my volatile enmity. They aren't the only thing I use to build it, though. I open a fight with Banish -> Sentinel -> Flash -> Rampart -> Cure IV (with accompanying macro). Net gain: CE: 886 VE: 8567. Usually, I have time for one more flash before Sentinel wears, yielding another 360 CE and 2560 VE, which will always be enough to cap it. Fit in another Cure IV, and I'm sitting at 1769 CE and 10000~ VE. The VE will slowly go down, but it should be maintained most of the time. It's EASY to maintain that. It's the CE that's a bit harder to keep up and why a good PLD uses Cure macros and shadows (more CE built from curing than anything, as you said, and shadows stop CE bleed).

midgardDamac wrote:
I stepped out of end game but do monsters no longer do AoEs? Cast spells? Have shadow stripping TP moves? Am I missing something? Hate is easy to cap, but to claim once you're there your job is done is pretty silly.


Once you're there, with the right support + /nin, it's easy to keep CE fairly high. VE is even easier since you only lose 60 per second and a cure IV or cure III macro should cap you out, especially coupled with a flash. So, yeah, it's just a matter of knowing your target and keeping at it from there.

midgardDamac wrote:
Macro'ing in Valor Surcoat for cures, flashes, job abilites, cover etc. What time does that actually leave you in the other situational pieces? (again, endgame, high-end fights only) Seriously think about this. My playstyle makes it so I am rarely just sitting there "swinging" or idiling, but hey, that's just me!


The idea is you have to swing some time so why not get some use out of good gear for it. Also, you have enough abilities that you're ALWAYS casting something? JA's take a minimum of time, barely reducing your swing time. And, again, since I gear for DD even on most end game mobs (once I'm comfortable with them), I'm swinging my joyeuse faster than my recasts on all my abilities, so it DOES matter. Maybe the argument for the Refresh has some weight, but since macros are momentary, even using abilities, you should be able to get the refresh to proc often enough.

midgardDamac wrote:
In short, you can argue that "it keeps me hitting for 0's" but let's be honest here; that seems to be a tried excuse that can be met by doing a very large number of other things. Cerb Mantle? maybe a ring slot? Fort Torque full-time perhaps? orr... Maybe finish those sword merits to begin with?


Even with all of that, it's still possible to hit for 0. The math is explained elsewhere. I don't like hitting for zero, so I gear for full DD in my idle. If I had an Ares, though, I'd consider using it over my Hauby +1. Maybe.

midgardDamac wrote:
I'll cede that Atonement has changed alot of equipment options and viability when it comes to hate holding. On that same note, it seems Ares loses even still, bringing 0 accuracy to the table, why this over a Haub (Still has attack and str), Homam, or even the best of the pick being Avalon? Accuracy, enmity and a bit of damage negation all rolled into one, seems to me a silly argument.


It's a toss up for Avalon/Ares. Hauby does win, especially for Vorpal, but it's not too hard to build for accuracy to get away without Avalon or Hauby if you need to.

midgardDamac wrote:
Does Ares have it's situational use? For sure! Dynamis I could say it would be a wonderful piece, DDing on lower tier targets, IE: Limbus etc. Also very good.

Is Ares worth the money to be "full timed" over most everything else? Not even close.


That's your opinion. Others have specified theirs.

midgardDamac wrote:
I think we're not looking at each piece stat by stat. It looks neat, it's the hardest to come by for *most* people. It has a couple neat tricks, but it doesn't get the job done at the end of the day. Each person has their own play-style, but don't come harking that it is the only way to do it, or even the better way.


I don't think many people are harking this is the only way to do it. I'll concede it's a side grade, not a be-all, end-all. But harking on it as not even being a side grade is just as bad, in my opinion.

midgardDamac wrote:
If you're idling what importance is the head piece then! If you're doing something, you should be wearing something else. I think this is logic? Cures, Flash, JA's, recasts on shadows, are we honestly not doing anything for that long?


Ticks proc every 3 seconds from whenever the timer starts. For JA's, you can fit your gear swaps into that 3 seconds and still get the tick in with the refresh. With spells, it gets a little more tricky, but some of them, it's still possible to do. Yeah, it's probably not worth timing it out, but chances are, if you're idling in it, it'll be available most of the times the tick hits. And, as mentioned before, it doesn't have a horrible latent along with it.
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#50 Mar 12 2009 at 9:52 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I think we missed my point, in that the majority of your time spend in most events on pld, will be spent building hate through your MP.


This is why the refresh on Ares is so valuable. We need MP to build hate, having more lets us build more hate.

Quote:
"Idle" time is so few and far between and it can fit a number of descriptions depending on what you're doing but during an actual fight it doesn't work.


Idle sets do work. A number of the Paladins here use them, myself included.

Quote:
The majority of your hate is gained through Cures. We can all agree you can reach cap fairly quickly but holding and maintaining that cap takes effort, more than most would give credit for.


If you are casting non-stop you are burning thru your MP too quickly. While Tanking is a very active activity, you still have "idle" time.

Quote:
I stepped out of end game but do monsters no longer do AoEs? Cast spells? Have shadow stripping TP moves? Am I missing something? Hate is easy to cap, but to claim once you're there your job is done is pretty silly.


Once your hate is capped, you have to do less to keep it there. This gives us more "idle" time. In addition, a 750 damage weapon skill is a hate spike that doesn't even cost MP. So maximizing my idle set helps me build more hate, and not only does it let me build more hate with less MP spent but it actually helps me recover my MP faster.

Quote:
Macro'ing in Valor Surcoat for cures, flashes, job abilites, cover etc. What time does that actually leave you in the other situational pieces? (again, endgame, high-end fights only) Seriously think about this. My playstyle makes it so I am rarely just sitting there "swinging" or idiling, but hey, that's just me!


If you aren't swinging and are really constantly cure spamming, you are burning thru MP must faster than you need to be. Constant cure spamming is not sustainable from a MP perspective. If you are chain casting so much that you rarely swing your sword, you are going to run out of MP, if you aren't then you can benefit from maximizing your TP gain.

Quote:
In short, you can argue that "it keeps me hitting for 0's" but let's be honest here; that seems to be a tried excuse that can be met by doing a very large number of other things. Cerb Mantle? maybe a ring slot? Fort Torque full-time perhaps? orr... Maybe finish those sword merits to begin with?


There is a ring with 24Atk 12 Str and refresh? or a neck piece? or a back piece? Ares body is incredible because it gives you all of that in ONE slot. two flame rings is only 10 Str, a cerb mantle is only 15 Atk, Parade gorget is only refresh, name the one piece of gear that offers me all of this in one slot and I'll go buy it.

Quote:
I'll cede that Atonement has changed alot of equipment options and viability when it comes to hate holding. On that same note, it seems Ares loses even still, bringing 0 accuracy to the table, why this over a Haub (Still has attack and str), Homam, or even the best of the pick being Avalon? Accuracy, enmity and a bit of damage negation all rolled into one, seems to me a silly argument.


Atonement has dramaticly changed our gear options. I often eat sushi for the hugew boost to Acc, and I have enough acc in my other gear slots where the ares body's HUGE bonuses to atk and Str while giving me extra refresh is perferabel to any other body piece. Once again its the combination of all of these stats in one slot that make it an incredible piece. With sushi and my DD tanking kit, my Acc is around 90% on things like Cerberus and Khim. I don't use a Hauby +1 because the huge bonus to Str AND Atk AND Refresh are better then a just Acc in this slot.

The refresh on Ares body will result in better hate holding than a bit of enmity will. Even is situations where you aren't meleeing. Even if you remove the entire hitting for 0 and TP gain arguments, the refresh on it's own will end up generating more hate than a bit of enmity will over an extended fight.

Quote:
Does Ares have it's situational use? For sure! Dynamis I could say it would be a wonderful piece, DDing on lower tier targets, IE: Limbus etc. Also very good.


The situations where it is useful is most of the time. Even on stuff like tiamat in the air, Ares is better than Avalon. You can hit 310 fire resist without using a body for resist. You dont need 5% damage reduction when tia is already hitting your for extremely low damage already. The refresh will generate more hate than a 5% reduction in what is already minimal damage.

Even if you are being hit for 100 damage while tia is in the air *and that's a lot*, Avalon will drop that by only 5 Damage, and as you take less damage the value of -5% damage taken becomes worth even less. 1mp a tic refresh will generate more hate than taking 5 more damage will lose.

Vs JoL you can hit the cap on Magic damage taken without Avalon so once again ares for the refresh is better.

Cit. buster? Once again you can cap -MDT without Avalon so in my mind the refresh is perfered.

Avalon is a great body piece, but its not better than Ares.

Quote:
I think we're not looking at each piece stat by stat. It looks neat, it's the hardest to come by for *most* people. It has a couple neat tricks, but it doesn't get the job done at the end of the day. Each person has their own play-style, but don't come harking that it is the only way to do it, or even the better way.


Look at it stat by stat, what other piece gives refresh (Parade gives refresh but there is no reason not to stack these)? or 12 Str or 24 Atk? And we are ignoring the lol vit and Def of this piece, as well as the added HP which are all nice bonuses even though we wouldn't gear specifically for these stats. One again however, there is nothing that gives you ALL of this at the same time in only one slot.

As far as it "getting the job done". I am one of the main tanks in a very active HNMLS. Ares gets the job done for me and my LS on a daily basis. I had a Hauby +1 I have a Mbody, I have a Valor surcoat, I have used an Avalon breastplate. My opinion of Ares being the best body piece for a Paladin especially in the endgame arena is based off of having or having used just about every other body piece available to a Paladin. My opinions are based off of my experiences with these items and gear sets, I've tried the other options and Ares work the best in my opinion.

Quote:
If you're idling what importance is the head piece then! If you're doing something, you should be wearing something else. I think this is logic? Cures, Flash, JA's, recasts on shadows, are we honestly not doing anything for that long?


What value is the head piece? It's 5% haste or 12 Acc 12 Atk. This is ignoring the fact that Vermy doesn't have 24 Atk and 12 Str on it.

36 Atk 12 Str 12 Acc with refresh or 24 Atk 12 Str 5% Haste with refresh Vs just refresh

That seems pretty substantial to me, logic would dictate either of the first two gear sets is preferable. And considering how quickly I get TP I am quite sure we do spend enough time "idle" to make these sets worth it.

I really think you just over value enmity and undervalue refresh. There is a lot more information on the actual effect of enmity on our hate levels then they was in the past, and with all the info we have on hate caps and hate values I realize how I over valued enmity in the past. My gear set now doesn't have nearly as mush enmity as it had in the past, and in spite of that my hate holding hasn't suffered at all, quite the opposite it has gotten much better.

Sincerely,
Hankthetank

Edited, Mar 13th 2009 2:02am by Hankthetank
#51 Mar 13 2009 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I've worn my V-cloak since 2004, I wear it for everything I do when im not *actually* doing something.

Yes I do spam my MP, fight depending, and I wear my gear more towards enmity then most.


I've found that usually between, Sword merits, Fort Torque, and a cerb mantle there isn't much in the game that you will hit for 0 on. The 24 attack is nice, the 12 str is helpful but it isn't needed to break that cap on most targets. There isn't one piece of equipment that has that much, my point was you should only need a small boost that can be obtained in only one piece of minor equipment.

My point on swapping another piece of gear is, that is all the boost that should be needed assuming you have the merits to sustain it. I can't think of anything off hand that this is not the case for. It works for AU kings, it worked for Zilart kings, KS99s, ZNMs, Omega, Ultima and most everything in between.

Yes I do generally spam cure and spam my MP, I usually also come stocked with MP meds, Vile exlier, mulsums and the like. I used to think coming prepared was part of my role to a fight. This is a lost art now?

Ethereal-Earring, Chivalry, Devotion, Ballads, Auto-refresh, Refresh and a handful of meds can usually sustain me for most long fights. If i'm not Cure IIIing, im recasting shadows, im flashing or i'm doing something. Sure I idle, but its my opinion that time spent idling could be better spent in another piece of equipment, IE Haub, Homam, Avalon, Valor (no accuracy here but per point of O.P. I'll keep it in this list), Hydra, etc. etc. If Ares had 10 accuracy, I doubt we would have this issue.

That said, Hank you mentioned the use of sushi. If thats the case then I could cede that as well, but IIRC (and i'll look) no one else has said anything along those lines. Sushi would shut this issue up right away. I eat spagetti, I generally don't have accuracy problems, I like the additional HP but I also wear accuracy in equipment.


It's of my opinion that full timing Ares simply because it has 1 a tic (again, as most have stated), seems to be a silly option. I've always stressed how awesome Verm was for the cost that it was. I feel Ares is beyond the return for the time investment.

If you're eating sushi because thats what else your equipment is setup for then I will cede it is a decent piece. I think you can skip the sushi, drop 20k in MP meds if its an important fight, keep the enmity on for your cures and if you are wearing accuracy gear and hitting ok, but not hitting enough, why not eat meat? I think the 12 str and 24 attack doesnt out-weigh the other options, point-blank. (Options in this case being, wearing accuracy in gear and eating attack food)

A+ with merits shouldn't need much accuracy to hit decently.

Anyone who knows me, knows that, I'll come accross as pointed to stir things up to see if people actually pay attention to what they are saying and using and to defend why. Some of you stepped up and defended why they use it with reasons that fit for them. Sushi was what I was looking for here as an example, but I didn't get it from most. I feel the rest are going with the flow because a couple of abrasive gentlemen (or ladies? I hate to offend) may have headed the way.

1MP a tic is all some of you had, that doesn't cut it. You're talking to a guy who spends most of my free gil on Meds. As should most players.

At the end of the day, I guess I don't idle as much as others, perhaps thats a fault of my own. I sometimes run into MP issues quite often, but I can usually fix them in a pinch if needed.

In my setup, I just don't have room for a Byrnie with some extra str on it to do endgame with. I have my refresh equipment, I have my accuracy and DD gear, I don't eat sushi but I see my playstyle is a bit diffrent!



Edit: I think I broke the internet, what's this?

Edited, Mar 13th 2009 3:13pm by midgardDamac
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