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MP merits for Galka?Follow

#1 Jun 02 2008 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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Anonymous wrote:
Hello Scar

Well I am send you this message as I respect your opinon and would like some help in my upcoming merit options.

I am a Galka and have mp issue's so I was thinking of meriting mp for the full 8, I was also thinking of doing some +emnity as well for 2.

But then I got to thinking about shield skill and going that for 4/4. So i guess my question is will I be able to do this in the tier 1 merit's or not. I am not sure how the merits work quiet yet, even tho I have looked them up on the wiki.

I did not want to start a new thread about this and thought that I might ask an experienced PLD like your self.

/salute


I received this PM and figured I'd reply to it in the forums so that others could read and maybe learn something.

First of all, when it comes to endgame, MP merits aren't going to do a heck of a lot for your Galka PLD. The only thing that matters as far as MP goes is your Refresh rate. Thanks to spells and abilities like Ballad I/II, Refresh, Evoker's Roll, and Devotion, your PLD should have plenty of MP to play with while tanking. Instead of MP merits, you could carry around 1-2 stacks of Mulsum and some Ethers/Hi-Ethers. Once you do Sea and get gear like Homam, Ethereal and Loquacious Earrings, you'll find max MP to not be an issue, regardless of race. HP 8/8 is what a serious endgame tank will merit.

The tier 2 merit update simply expanded the max possible upgrades in those categories. Instead of being able to go 3/3, now you can potentially go 5/5 in 2 of the 4 options- Chivalry, Fealty, Iron Will, or Guardian.

Here's my recommendations for PLD merits and the order to do them in-

1. Unlock Chivalry (1/5)
2. Shield 4/4
3. Sword 8/8
4. Critical Hit Rate 4/4
5. Enmity 4/4
6. Unlock Fealty (1/5)
7. HP 8/8
8. Guardian 4/5
9. Sentinel 5/5
10. Cap Chivalry 5/5
11. Rampart 5/5
12. STR 5/5

Sword merits and Critical Hit Rate are recommended to help you get more merits faster, and are optional if you're meriting strictly for endgame, and using another job to get the merits with. The STR merits are optional as well, but will help with melee potential for all jobs.




Edited, Jun 2nd 2008 12:28pm by ScarShiva
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#2 Jun 02 2008 at 8:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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I do feel kinda sorry for galka with their little mp pools. A sympathy that quickly diminishes when I see that they have a base hp higher than what I can get even with 8/8 HP merits <.<
I do think that its wrong to say that one size fits all. The races ARE different and I personally think they ought to be considered differently. I don't think that putting merits into mp for galka is necessarily a bad idea although I am aware that for the majority of races and situations it won't be all that effective (as Scar says, its your refresh rate that's more significant than your max mp). On the flip side, if you've got more hp than you know what to do with then what's the point of adding more via merits?

All I can suggest is that the OP gets out into the realms of endgame and sees for themselves. They have plenty of merits they need to accumulate in the mean time (shield, chiv), they can shove 4 merits into hp and then depending on their play-style, if they feel their small mp pool is actually being a problem during events, make their own decision on where they need those last 4 hp/mp merits.

I'd love to give more solid advice, but I can't - I'm a mithra :(
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#3 Jun 02 2008 at 8:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you have (or are at the top of the list for) a Valor Surcoat, would you forgo the rampart merits in favor of cover merits? I'm at the top of the list for surcoat and have plans on capping cover duration. Any reason I shouldn't?
#4 Jun 02 2008 at 2:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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In my opinion, depending on your style of tanking...I would think reducing the time on rampart and provide magic defense to party as well as getting hate using the ability is more important than increasing duration on cover...

Edited, Jun 2nd 2008 3:43pm by EvlSmily
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#5 Jun 02 2008 at 7:08 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If you have (or are at the top of the list for) a Valor Surcoat, would you forgo the rampart merits in favor of cover merits? I'm at the top of the list for surcoat and have plans on capping cover duration. Any reason I shouldn't?


It depends on what context you use your PLD in.

Mine is used either for solo or endgame tanking, for little group events I use my DRK. Cover merits, while they would be nice to have for the Valor Surcoat given its short duration, translate into near useless. Even on HNMs if you cover someone else (the other tank) I find it not firing off at times despite standing right infront of your cotank (very frustrating.)

I'd say 5/5 Sentinel and then either 5/5 Shield Bash, or 5/5 Rampart, leaning more towards the Rampart. Shield Bash became an option since now its a gurantee stun, it would be nice for a good hate build/way to get shadows back up.

#6 Jun 02 2008 at 7:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well thank you scar for your reply.

I was mainly thinking of going MP for the extra mp going into RDM and BLU later in my game life.

Also my hp at 75 is going to be about 1480 or so and my mp is a measly 140 or so, this is without gear.

I was not even sure if I should merit Sword as PLD has an A+ in it already but I guess the extra att and acc from it wont hurt.

I also took a look at that Crit hit rate and thought it would be good to have as well. So I am glade to see you have it on the list.

At least now I know what to do first and when to do it.

Again thank you



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#7 Jun 02 2008 at 11:36 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Also my hp at 75 is going to be about 1480 or so and my mp is a measly 140 or so, this is without gear.

It's worth noting that my NIN/DRK, with gear, has about 140mp, and gets by just fine. Obviously that's not a directly relevant parallel because a NIN/DRK's spells are cheaper, but even spamming spells as fast as I can I rarely run out, which gives an idea of how much more important refresh rate is than actual maximum mp.
#8 Jun 02 2008 at 11:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd have to disagree with you. As Galka PLD, I did 5 MP and 3 HP, and i don't think I would change that at all. 50 MP is still pretty huge for Galka, especially since not everything I do is blink tank. I chose 3/5 HP/MP simply because I like being over the 1600 mark in HP, I dunno why. You really should never need any more than that, but I would prefer not having any less.

Really any combination of HP/MP is fine, but I would reccomend atleast a few MP as Galka; if nothing else, it helps Cure spam macros, which are awesome. Other than that, I would agree with that Merit point setup, but maybe in a different order. Although if you merit often enough, it should not make a huge difference.

Edit: In terms of Valor Surcoat = Cover Merits?: I have the Surcoat, and yes the effect is amazing, but I find myself hardpressed to find times i can use it. The only guaranteed time is fighting Demon NMs in Dynamis-Xarc, and occasionally on Wyrms during flight. But the Galka role also plays into that. Even blowing my MP to 0, it does not take long to fill my MP bar back up, atleast not long enough for Cover's effect to wear off, so Cover merits would be absolutely useless for me. It's very situational; depends highly on Race/Gear, and probably also what you're tanking. Higher damage = higher MP return, and Xarc NMs can pack a punch.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2008 4:07am by SirGanon
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#9 Jun 03 2008 at 3:16 AM Rating: Good
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i had to rework the list and moved things around from scars list, my lil mithra has no HP just, under 1300 w/ gear :O (carbonara/HBM FTW!) and takes some big shots

only up to 3/8




Edited, Jun 3rd 2008 6:17am by krazyrs
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#10 Jun 03 2008 at 5:49 AM Rating: Good
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Having a Valor Surcoat, and doing many lowman events with friends outside of the Endgame/HNM scene, I selected my tier1 merits as follows:

Sentinel 3
Cover 3
Shield Bash 2
Rampart 2

My reasoning for this was I am often placed in situations where a DD will unleash on a mob, and we have nowhere near the curing abilities to keep them alive. A 27 second cover (15 second base + 12 seconds from merits) is awesome for buying people time. Plus, if I am not at full HP/MP, the Valor Surcoat cover enhancement pretty much means I am taking free damage. Have to love getting 20% MP back on hits. With efficient cures, thats approximately 86% damage negation during a cover assuming I cure it all back with bonus MP. (I usually get something around 380HP back for 88MP, so I have roughly a 4.31 to 1.0 HP:MP ratio on my cure IVs. That also calculates to about 99% damage negation assuming you have an Ethereal Earring to boost the MP from damage to 23% instead of 20%...) That's pretty cool in my opinion. It's kinda like a second Sentinel to me, so I have no regrets meriting it. Instead of a straight up hate boost, this ones lets me save other people too, and I generally notice the hate gained from curing myself back up is greater than the hate lost form getting hit.

I lowered the recast of Shield Bash and Rampart so they were closer to the recast of Sentinel. I like to pop those two off during Sentinels sometimes for spike hate when the need comes up. Besides, stun and magic shield are fun abilities too.

Thinking about it though, if I didn't have the Valor Surcoat, I would have probably gone Sentinel 5, and either Rampart 3 Shield Bash 2, or Rampart 5.
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#11 Jun 03 2008 at 8:38 AM Rating: Decent
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If I were a Galka Paladin, I would merit 8/8 MP just because you have enough HP on you as a GALKA. Other than End game you will most likely have 2-3 different level 75 jobs, and 50% of the time doing your own things outside end game. 80 MP will benefit you more in general. Seriously though as GALKA PLD, HP is not an issue for overall effectiveness you can merit other things first.
#12Enghorr, Posted: Jun 03 2008 at 8:41 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Also I would like to remind you, that PALADIN is receiving a NEW MAGIC SPELL (REFLECT) so it is wise to merit 8/8 MP.
#13 Jun 03 2008 at 9:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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And we know nothing about level/mp cost, yet, so I wouldn't say 8 MP merits is the way to go just yet. Wait until the details hit - then you can talk about needing 80 more MP just to get a spell going.
#14 Jun 03 2008 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
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In the end, merit whatever you like. However, the simple fact is that if you fight tough HNMs you're going to live because you had 80 more max hp a lot more often than you're going to live because you started the fight with 80 more mp. Maximum hp helps you constantly because your hp will be cured to maximum frequently, while max mp gives you extra mp once at the start of the fight and again only when you use Chivalry or a WHM uses Devotion.

Remember also that when you reach 75 your gear maybe isn't so great, and you feel like your mp maximum is a bit low. However, start adding some decent endgame equipment (especially Homam) and you'll see your max mp go up quite a bit.
#15 Jun 03 2008 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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In the end, a Galka PLD with 0 MP merits, Homam Hands, Feet, and Legs, Loquacious/Ethereal Earring, and Refresh + Ballad I/II or Evoker's Roll and maxed Chivalry, is never going to have MP problems if played correctly with the proper alliance.

A Galka PLD with full HP merits is an absolute beast, almost impossible to bring down if everyone's paying attention. There's enough tricks like Devotion these days to make the MP arguments absolutely moot.

HP will always improve survivability and also allows for very high buffer on latent effect items, such as Sorceror's Ring, etc. If you chose Galka, I hope it wasn't to merit MP and be an Elvaan with slightly higher base HP and VIT. By meriting HP and eating Carbonara, you can do some incredible things as a Galka WHM, Devotions capable of capping off a Taru SMN, for instance. That same Galka WHM with 8 MP merits isn't anything special.
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#16 Jun 03 2008 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry, I respect your opinion on most things, but again, I completely disagree. If having 80 more HP really saves your life more than 80 MP, you're getting hit too much/too hard, or fighting Poto-Ultima. Do you NEED more MP merit as Galka? No. But you NEED HP Merits far, far, FAR less.

Quote:
A Galka PLD with full HP merits is an absolute beast, almost impossible to bring down if everyone's paying attention.


If everyone is paying attention, 80 HP is completely negligible. Yeah Homam/Loq Ear/Refresh/Ballad is a ton of MP, but I like using my MP when I have it. If I'm sitting on full MP (and yes, even Galka can sometimes) I use it. Flash when I can, HP Down > HP Up > Cure Macro, when flash is down. On stuff like JoL, and Ouryu, if you're not blowing MP, you're probably not holding hate. (To Clarify, PLD/RDM full time for Ouryu and JoL. The better I can hold hate, the harder the DD/Mages can nuke, and the faster I can get those dreadfully boring fights over with. These 2 of course being the only times i really reccommend blowing through most of your MP)

Quote:
If you chose Galka, I hope it wasn't to merit MP and be an Elvaan with slightly higher base HP and VIT.


I don't wanna split hairs, but i highly doubt anyone thinks: "Time to make a new character, be a Galka PLD and Merit MP."

Quote:
By meriting HP and eating Carbonara, you can do some incredible things as a Galka WHM, Devotions capable of capping off a Taru SMN, for instance. That same Galka WHM with 8 MP merits isn't anything special.


True, but I'm pretty sure the OP's message was pertaining mainly to PLD. Taking other jobs into account can completely change your merit choices, All I can really say is 75 lvls of having absolute garbage MP really taught me to appreciate MP where I can get it, and not have it negatively affect my tanking ability; and MP only enhances that. PLD isn't my only job but it is definitely my main job, which is more than enough to warrant a whole group of merits dedicated to 1 job. I'm a big supporter of any race playing any job, but Meritting is one area that I can't say should be exactly the same for every person.

Again: to each his own. Depends on Job/Race/Person/Mob/Linkshell/Alliance/Sheeeeet-is-situational.

Edited, Jun 4th 2008 2:07am by SirGanon
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#17 Jun 04 2008 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
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I agree with both sides of the debate here.

Being a Galka Pld myself I have to agree more with Sirgannon.

My personal choice in this matter is 2HP merits and 6MP merits

As Sirgannon stated he wanted over 1600 My goal was to hit 1600.

60 xtra Mp is a god send when you have gotten used to working with ur Very limited amount of mp.

Also If this is the Galkas first 75 and just getting into merits Access to all of those wonderfull pieces of SEA armor are probably not an option.

I would say the Average New player Gets Sky, then Sea.

I just started playing Pld/Rdm and I am looking for a way to boost my pool of mp.

What I play with is
Turban
Lamia Bow
Lamia Mantle
Heirich Belt
Astral Ring (as soon as I can afford a Serket gonna replace that)
Wlegs
Wfeet
Parade Gorget

I have so far only 1 or 2 mp merits (I decided to finish Sam Merits First) and
that puts me at 400+ Mp. Add the serket and the rest of the Mp Merits I'll easily be at 500Mp.

If you are the Main pld in an HNM as a Galka go for the 8/8 HP
if you are 2nd and lower on the list of Plds in your Hnmls Get The MP. Cause you will find that the Mages dont always pay attention to the plds down the list.
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Get bent.
#18 Jun 04 2008 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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ccstwocents wrote:
If you are the Main pld in an HNM as a Galka go for the 8/8 HP if you are 2nd and lower on the list of Plds in your Hnmls Get The MP. Cause you will find that the Mages dont always pay attention to the plds down the list.


If you want to be that main PLD in your LS, you're meriting that HP 8/8 regardless of race. You know what the best merits for tanking are, you swap out gear for JA, spell casting, and Magic Damage reduction, and that's why you're the main PLD of an HNMLS.

If you're 2nd or lower, don't merit your character for HNM fights, and realize nobody is going to give a **** when they're giving the main guy a breather and letting you step in for him. They'll let you die because you're expendable, a tank who's making their jobs much more difficult instead of easier.

Again, 12 Mulsum > 8/8 MP merits. Absorbing and surviving a Citadel Buster just on raw HP alone= priceless.





Edited, Jun 7th 2008 3:03am by ScarShiva
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#19 Jun 04 2008 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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Well ccstwocents points out this is my first job to 75.

As to endgame stuff my current LS does not do them.

I would like to get into a LS that does them but my days off are Thursday and Fridays, and I dont get home till about 12am EST. So finding an LS that does Endgame stuff on these days is a bit difficult.

I can get used to having no mp but without a refresher in the party it is tougher to maintain cap on mp. I am starting to look into +hmp more and more now, but when the puller only gives you 10secs rest and no refresh 128mp (current lvl without gear)is not going to last long. With 10 secs I might be able to make back about 80mp or so. (I have not looked into all the numbers yet for this)

No cure 4 (88mp) that is for sure and flash(25mp)is 45sec's recast, so maintaining hate is a bit more of a challange through mp usage.

If Square could give us Galka 100mp extra at lvl 75 for PLD and Mage jobs I think we would all be a bit happier.

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#20 Jun 06 2008 at 12:29 PM Rating: Default
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Coincidentally, it has been expressed within our LS among some of the members (including myself) in all seriousness, that if SE would give us the option to change race just once, knowing what we know now compared to back then, would become an eunuch a Galka in a heartbeat. (and one of them doesn't even have pld(or nin) lvled, to my knowledge.)
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And not so we can max our MP merits...
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#21 Jun 06 2008 at 7:56 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If everyone is paying attention, 80 HP is completely negligible.

Except that even when everyone is paying attention a tank can still die. I'm pretty confident that every PLD in this thread gets killed sometimes, even when support is on the ball. An extra 80hp isn't huge, but it's also not negligible.
Quote:
If I'm sitting on full MP (and yes, even Galka can sometimes) I use it.

You should never be sitting at full mp. Even with an absurd refresh rate (which, again, would be an argument against mp merits), you can always find three seconds to cure for hate. That's the whole reason people aren't in favour of mp merits: they literally do you no good once the fight starts and your mp never maxes again. Even with Chivarly and Devotion you're getting that 80mp once every five minutes at the absolute most, and one extra Cure3 every five minutes simply isn't more useful than +80hp.

It's not that +80hp is godly -- it's not. It will keep you alive once in a while, and otherwise just give your healers a chance to breathe and be a smidge more mp efficient in curing you. However, that's still more than an extra 80mp offers. A PLD's max mp could be half what it is and have no effect at all on his performance in big fights.
#22 Jun 06 2008 at 11:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Caesura wrote:
Quote:
If everyone is paying attention, 80 HP is completely negligible.

Except that even when everyone is paying attention a tank can still die. I'm pretty confident that every PLD in this thread gets killed sometimes, even when support is on the ball. An extra 80hp isn't huge, but it's also not negligible.
Quote:
If I'm sitting on full MP (and yes, even Galka can sometimes) I use it.

You should never be sitting at full mp. Even with an absurd refresh rate (which, again, would be an argument against mp merits), you can always find three seconds to cure for hate. That's the whole reason people aren't in favour of mp merits: they literally do you no good once the fight starts and your mp never maxes again. Even with Chivarly and Devotion you're getting that 80mp once every five minutes at the absolute most, and one extra Cure3 every five minutes simply isn't more useful than +80hp.


This is exactly what I was saying earlier- max MP isn't what's important endgame. It's all about the Refresh rate.

Caesura wrote:
It's not that +80hp is godly -- it's not. It will keep you alive once in a while, and otherwise just give your healers a chance to breathe and be a smidge more mp efficient in curing you. However, that's still more than an extra 80mp offers. A PLD's max mp could be half what it is and have no effect at all on his performance in big fights.


One of the biggest benefits of HP merits is the flexibility it gives you. You can equip more +Enmity gear while retaining the same survivability, or go with your max HP set for even greater survivability.

And, you can also go with Serket Ring/Ether Ring at start of fight and macro in before Chivalry/Devotion, effectively gaining an additional 80 MP with no real HP loss. Burn off that MP and swap back to +Enmity rings once the MP is spent.
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#23 Jun 07 2008 at 12:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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ScarShiva wrote:
If you want to be that main PLD in your LS, you're meriting that HP 8/8 regardless of race. You know what the best merits for tanking are, you swap out gear for JA, spell casting, and Magic Damage reduction, and that's why you're the main PLD of an HNMLS.

If you're 2nd or lower, don't merit your character for HNM fights, and realize nobody is going to give a **** when they're giving the main guy a breather and letting you step in for him. They'll let you die because you're expendable, a tank who's making their jobs much more difficult instead of easier.

Again, 12 Mulsum > 8/8 MP merits. Absorbing and surviving a Citadel Buster just on raw HP alone= priceless.


Could not have said it better myself.

80MP has never made or broken a fight for me, but 80HP has saved my **** more times than I can remember.
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#24 Jun 07 2008 at 12:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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It feels like a moot point to keep playing the race card, but that's really the only argument I can make, since that is entirely what the original post was about. All I can really say is that in everything endgame I have done (which is, pretty much all engame mobs, aside from maybe 1 or 2) I have never EVER needed, wished I had, or died solely due to a lack of 80HP. I really didn't think the HP/MP ratio from Galka to Hume was that big, but if people really feel that strongly about 80HP, then i guess it is.

1600 HP, without equipping any items solely for HP is awesome, and I love it. I would not turn down more HP, but it gets to a point where a mob tearing through 1600+ HP before I can cure myself or be cured, just does not happen. And I feel what you said for HP as buffer holds true for MP. Yeah its only 50 MP, but that's still more time before I need to pop that Chivalry or ask for Devotion.

So yes I can see where HP Merits could greatly help/save another race, but I honestly have just not had that problem as a Galka. It all just comes down to race, again. I'm perfectly comfortoable in my HP, just as other races are in their MP, I'm sure.
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#25 Jun 07 2008 at 6:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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yes race should not make a difference in choice.... but race does make a major difference in what merits you should select.

Galka
1445
143

Elf
1324
266

Hume
1233
342

Mith
1233
342

Taru
1037
525

Those who say get 8/8HP have still yet to try and play with the Base MP pool that a Galka comes with.

Is it douable yes yes it is. But what would make it easier More Mp. Same with a Taru can a taru do pld with that few hps, yes it is.

You just equip gear different to overcome your weakness. Show me where I can equip 75 mp on a ring? show me where I canequip 80 mp on a back piece.

Get the MP merits as a Galka it will help with Hate Control cause it will give you the extra chance to Get and Maintain Hate.

Remember if you Move up to that #1 pld spot you can always Demerit and Lvl HP up later.

But the Right Here and now is Mp will help you More than Hp ever will... In the Future HP may very well be the way to go.

The very first thing you should merit is Chivalry Then Do Shield Skill, then make your decision about Hp and Mp.

Even after the 80 mp in merits other races still dont have to worry about the lack of MP issue. So to them it isnt a issue because at no time do they have that low of an amount of Mp.


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Get bent.
#26 Jun 07 2008 at 6:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Serket Ring/Ether Ring


O.o

So in the same breath Don’t use Mp merits because you can equip rings that will give you the Mp at the Cost of HP?

What sense does that make?

That just comes across as a total hypocritical statement to make. Don’t lvl Mp because you need more survivability. You need the 80 Hps to Survive.

But you could put on Serket and Ether that Sacrifices you Hp to give you more MP.

NO NO NO... make yourself more Survivable by getting the Mp in merits that way you don’t need the -hp gear to make up for your lack of Mp and you can then still pile on +hp gear and +enmity gear and still have greater Survivability then the other races playing pld.

____________________________
ScarShiva wrote:
Disclaimer: There seem to be a lot of PLDs on this board who get upset when I have the nerve to suggest things like wearing Peacock Charm full-time in XP is preferable over Shield Torque, Parade Gorget is a macro piece only, Tacos are worthless, Loquacious Earring > Boxer's Mantle for PLD/NIN, Polearm is a crock of **** for PLD, and all other types of heresy.

Get bent.
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