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MP merits for Galka?Follow

#1 Jun 02 2008 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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Anonymous wrote:
Hello Scar

Well I am send you this message as I respect your opinon and would like some help in my upcoming merit options.

I am a Galka and have mp issue's so I was thinking of meriting mp for the full 8, I was also thinking of doing some +emnity as well for 2.

But then I got to thinking about shield skill and going that for 4/4. So i guess my question is will I be able to do this in the tier 1 merit's or not. I am not sure how the merits work quiet yet, even tho I have looked them up on the wiki.

I did not want to start a new thread about this and thought that I might ask an experienced PLD like your self.

/salute


I received this PM and figured I'd reply to it in the forums so that others could read and maybe learn something.

First of all, when it comes to endgame, MP merits aren't going to do a heck of a lot for your Galka PLD. The only thing that matters as far as MP goes is your Refresh rate. Thanks to spells and abilities like Ballad I/II, Refresh, Evoker's Roll, and Devotion, your PLD should have plenty of MP to play with while tanking. Instead of MP merits, you could carry around 1-2 stacks of Mulsum and some Ethers/Hi-Ethers. Once you do Sea and get gear like Homam, Ethereal and Loquacious Earrings, you'll find max MP to not be an issue, regardless of race. HP 8/8 is what a serious endgame tank will merit.

The tier 2 merit update simply expanded the max possible upgrades in those categories. Instead of being able to go 3/3, now you can potentially go 5/5 in 2 of the 4 options- Chivalry, Fealty, Iron Will, or Guardian.

Here's my recommendations for PLD merits and the order to do them in-

1. Unlock Chivalry (1/5)
2. Shield 4/4
3. Sword 8/8
4. Critical Hit Rate 4/4
5. Enmity 4/4
6. Unlock Fealty (1/5)
7. HP 8/8
8. Guardian 4/5
9. Sentinel 5/5
10. Cap Chivalry 5/5
11. Rampart 5/5
12. STR 5/5

Sword merits and Critical Hit Rate are recommended to help you get more merits faster, and are optional if you're meriting strictly for endgame, and using another job to get the merits with. The STR merits are optional as well, but will help with melee potential for all jobs.




Edited, Jun 2nd 2008 12:28pm by ScarShiva
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#2 Jun 02 2008 at 8:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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I do feel kinda sorry for galka with their little mp pools. A sympathy that quickly diminishes when I see that they have a base hp higher than what I can get even with 8/8 HP merits <.<
I do think that its wrong to say that one size fits all. The races ARE different and I personally think they ought to be considered differently. I don't think that putting merits into mp for galka is necessarily a bad idea although I am aware that for the majority of races and situations it won't be all that effective (as Scar says, its your refresh rate that's more significant than your max mp). On the flip side, if you've got more hp than you know what to do with then what's the point of adding more via merits?

All I can suggest is that the OP gets out into the realms of endgame and sees for themselves. They have plenty of merits they need to accumulate in the mean time (shield, chiv), they can shove 4 merits into hp and then depending on their play-style, if they feel their small mp pool is actually being a problem during events, make their own decision on where they need those last 4 hp/mp merits.

I'd love to give more solid advice, but I can't - I'm a mithra :(
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#3 Jun 02 2008 at 8:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you have (or are at the top of the list for) a Valor Surcoat, would you forgo the rampart merits in favor of cover merits? I'm at the top of the list for surcoat and have plans on capping cover duration. Any reason I shouldn't?
#4 Jun 02 2008 at 2:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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In my opinion, depending on your style of tanking...I would think reducing the time on rampart and provide magic defense to party as well as getting hate using the ability is more important than increasing duration on cover...

Edited, Jun 2nd 2008 3:43pm by EvlSmily
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#5 Jun 02 2008 at 7:08 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If you have (or are at the top of the list for) a Valor Surcoat, would you forgo the rampart merits in favor of cover merits? I'm at the top of the list for surcoat and have plans on capping cover duration. Any reason I shouldn't?


It depends on what context you use your PLD in.

Mine is used either for solo or endgame tanking, for little group events I use my DRK. Cover merits, while they would be nice to have for the Valor Surcoat given its short duration, translate into near useless. Even on HNMs if you cover someone else (the other tank) I find it not firing off at times despite standing right infront of your cotank (very frustrating.)

I'd say 5/5 Sentinel and then either 5/5 Shield Bash, or 5/5 Rampart, leaning more towards the Rampart. Shield Bash became an option since now its a gurantee stun, it would be nice for a good hate build/way to get shadows back up.

#6 Jun 02 2008 at 7:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well thank you scar for your reply.

I was mainly thinking of going MP for the extra mp going into RDM and BLU later in my game life.

Also my hp at 75 is going to be about 1480 or so and my mp is a measly 140 or so, this is without gear.

I was not even sure if I should merit Sword as PLD has an A+ in it already but I guess the extra att and acc from it wont hurt.

I also took a look at that Crit hit rate and thought it would be good to have as well. So I am glade to see you have it on the list.

At least now I know what to do first and when to do it.

Again thank you



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#7 Jun 02 2008 at 11:36 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Also my hp at 75 is going to be about 1480 or so and my mp is a measly 140 or so, this is without gear.

It's worth noting that my NIN/DRK, with gear, has about 140mp, and gets by just fine. Obviously that's not a directly relevant parallel because a NIN/DRK's spells are cheaper, but even spamming spells as fast as I can I rarely run out, which gives an idea of how much more important refresh rate is than actual maximum mp.
#8 Jun 02 2008 at 11:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd have to disagree with you. As Galka PLD, I did 5 MP and 3 HP, and i don't think I would change that at all. 50 MP is still pretty huge for Galka, especially since not everything I do is blink tank. I chose 3/5 HP/MP simply because I like being over the 1600 mark in HP, I dunno why. You really should never need any more than that, but I would prefer not having any less.

Really any combination of HP/MP is fine, but I would reccomend atleast a few MP as Galka; if nothing else, it helps Cure spam macros, which are awesome. Other than that, I would agree with that Merit point setup, but maybe in a different order. Although if you merit often enough, it should not make a huge difference.

Edit: In terms of Valor Surcoat = Cover Merits?: I have the Surcoat, and yes the effect is amazing, but I find myself hardpressed to find times i can use it. The only guaranteed time is fighting Demon NMs in Dynamis-Xarc, and occasionally on Wyrms during flight. But the Galka role also plays into that. Even blowing my MP to 0, it does not take long to fill my MP bar back up, atleast not long enough for Cover's effect to wear off, so Cover merits would be absolutely useless for me. It's very situational; depends highly on Race/Gear, and probably also what you're tanking. Higher damage = higher MP return, and Xarc NMs can pack a punch.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2008 4:07am by SirGanon
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#9 Jun 03 2008 at 3:16 AM Rating: Good
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i had to rework the list and moved things around from scars list, my lil mithra has no HP just, under 1300 w/ gear :O (carbonara/HBM FTW!) and takes some big shots

only up to 3/8




Edited, Jun 3rd 2008 6:17am by krazyrs
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#10 Jun 03 2008 at 5:49 AM Rating: Good
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Having a Valor Surcoat, and doing many lowman events with friends outside of the Endgame/HNM scene, I selected my tier1 merits as follows:

Sentinel 3
Cover 3
Shield Bash 2
Rampart 2

My reasoning for this was I am often placed in situations where a DD will unleash on a mob, and we have nowhere near the curing abilities to keep them alive. A 27 second cover (15 second base + 12 seconds from merits) is awesome for buying people time. Plus, if I am not at full HP/MP, the Valor Surcoat cover enhancement pretty much means I am taking free damage. Have to love getting 20% MP back on hits. With efficient cures, thats approximately 86% damage negation during a cover assuming I cure it all back with bonus MP. (I usually get something around 380HP back for 88MP, so I have roughly a 4.31 to 1.0 HP:MP ratio on my cure IVs. That also calculates to about 99% damage negation assuming you have an Ethereal Earring to boost the MP from damage to 23% instead of 20%...) That's pretty cool in my opinion. It's kinda like a second Sentinel to me, so I have no regrets meriting it. Instead of a straight up hate boost, this ones lets me save other people too, and I generally notice the hate gained from curing myself back up is greater than the hate lost form getting hit.

I lowered the recast of Shield Bash and Rampart so they were closer to the recast of Sentinel. I like to pop those two off during Sentinels sometimes for spike hate when the need comes up. Besides, stun and magic shield are fun abilities too.

Thinking about it though, if I didn't have the Valor Surcoat, I would have probably gone Sentinel 5, and either Rampart 3 Shield Bash 2, or Rampart 5.
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#11 Jun 03 2008 at 8:38 AM Rating: Decent
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If I were a Galka Paladin, I would merit 8/8 MP just because you have enough HP on you as a GALKA. Other than End game you will most likely have 2-3 different level 75 jobs, and 50% of the time doing your own things outside end game. 80 MP will benefit you more in general. Seriously though as GALKA PLD, HP is not an issue for overall effectiveness you can merit other things first.
#12Enghorr, Posted: Jun 03 2008 at 8:41 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Also I would like to remind you, that PALADIN is receiving a NEW MAGIC SPELL (REFLECT) so it is wise to merit 8/8 MP.
#13 Jun 03 2008 at 9:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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And we know nothing about level/mp cost, yet, so I wouldn't say 8 MP merits is the way to go just yet. Wait until the details hit - then you can talk about needing 80 more MP just to get a spell going.
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#14 Jun 03 2008 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
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In the end, merit whatever you like. However, the simple fact is that if you fight tough HNMs you're going to live because you had 80 more max hp a lot more often than you're going to live because you started the fight with 80 more mp. Maximum hp helps you constantly because your hp will be cured to maximum frequently, while max mp gives you extra mp once at the start of the fight and again only when you use Chivalry or a WHM uses Devotion.

Remember also that when you reach 75 your gear maybe isn't so great, and you feel like your mp maximum is a bit low. However, start adding some decent endgame equipment (especially Homam) and you'll see your max mp go up quite a bit.
#15 Jun 03 2008 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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In the end, a Galka PLD with 0 MP merits, Homam Hands, Feet, and Legs, Loquacious/Ethereal Earring, and Refresh + Ballad I/II or Evoker's Roll and maxed Chivalry, is never going to have MP problems if played correctly with the proper alliance.

A Galka PLD with full HP merits is an absolute beast, almost impossible to bring down if everyone's paying attention. There's enough tricks like Devotion these days to make the MP arguments absolutely moot.

HP will always improve survivability and also allows for very high buffer on latent effect items, such as Sorceror's Ring, etc. If you chose Galka, I hope it wasn't to merit MP and be an Elvaan with slightly higher base HP and VIT. By meriting HP and eating Carbonara, you can do some incredible things as a Galka WHM, Devotions capable of capping off a Taru SMN, for instance. That same Galka WHM with 8 MP merits isn't anything special.
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#16 Jun 03 2008 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry, I respect your opinion on most things, but again, I completely disagree. If having 80 more HP really saves your life more than 80 MP, you're getting hit too much/too hard, or fighting Poto-Ultima. Do you NEED more MP merit as Galka? No. But you NEED HP Merits far, far, FAR less.

Quote:
A Galka PLD with full HP merits is an absolute beast, almost impossible to bring down if everyone's paying attention.


If everyone is paying attention, 80 HP is completely negligible. Yeah Homam/Loq Ear/Refresh/Ballad is a ton of MP, but I like using my MP when I have it. If I'm sitting on full MP (and yes, even Galka can sometimes) I use it. Flash when I can, HP Down > HP Up > Cure Macro, when flash is down. On stuff like JoL, and Ouryu, if you're not blowing MP, you're probably not holding hate. (To Clarify, PLD/RDM full time for Ouryu and JoL. The better I can hold hate, the harder the DD/Mages can nuke, and the faster I can get those dreadfully boring fights over with. These 2 of course being the only times i really reccommend blowing through most of your MP)

Quote:
If you chose Galka, I hope it wasn't to merit MP and be an Elvaan with slightly higher base HP and VIT.


I don't wanna split hairs, but i highly doubt anyone thinks: "Time to make a new character, be a Galka PLD and Merit MP."

Quote:
By meriting HP and eating Carbonara, you can do some incredible things as a Galka WHM, Devotions capable of capping off a Taru SMN, for instance. That same Galka WHM with 8 MP merits isn't anything special.


True, but I'm pretty sure the OP's message was pertaining mainly to PLD. Taking other jobs into account can completely change your merit choices, All I can really say is 75 lvls of having absolute garbage MP really taught me to appreciate MP where I can get it, and not have it negatively affect my tanking ability; and MP only enhances that. PLD isn't my only job but it is definitely my main job, which is more than enough to warrant a whole group of merits dedicated to 1 job. I'm a big supporter of any race playing any job, but Meritting is one area that I can't say should be exactly the same for every person.

Again: to each his own. Depends on Job/Race/Person/Mob/Linkshell/Alliance/Sheeeeet-is-situational.

Edited, Jun 4th 2008 2:07am by SirGanon
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#17 Jun 04 2008 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
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I agree with both sides of the debate here.

Being a Galka Pld myself I have to agree more with Sirgannon.

My personal choice in this matter is 2HP merits and 6MP merits

As Sirgannon stated he wanted over 1600 My goal was to hit 1600.

60 xtra Mp is a god send when you have gotten used to working with ur Very limited amount of mp.

Also If this is the Galkas first 75 and just getting into merits Access to all of those wonderfull pieces of SEA armor are probably not an option.

I would say the Average New player Gets Sky, then Sea.

I just started playing Pld/Rdm and I am looking for a way to boost my pool of mp.

What I play with is
Turban
Lamia Bow
Lamia Mantle
Heirich Belt
Astral Ring (as soon as I can afford a Serket gonna replace that)
Wlegs
Wfeet
Parade Gorget

I have so far only 1 or 2 mp merits (I decided to finish Sam Merits First) and
that puts me at 400+ Mp. Add the serket and the rest of the Mp Merits I'll easily be at 500Mp.

If you are the Main pld in an HNM as a Galka go for the 8/8 HP
if you are 2nd and lower on the list of Plds in your Hnmls Get The MP. Cause you will find that the Mages dont always pay attention to the plds down the list.
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Get bent.
#18 Jun 04 2008 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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ccstwocents wrote:
If you are the Main pld in an HNM as a Galka go for the 8/8 HP if you are 2nd and lower on the list of Plds in your Hnmls Get The MP. Cause you will find that the Mages dont always pay attention to the plds down the list.


If you want to be that main PLD in your LS, you're meriting that HP 8/8 regardless of race. You know what the best merits for tanking are, you swap out gear for JA, spell casting, and Magic Damage reduction, and that's why you're the main PLD of an HNMLS.

If you're 2nd or lower, don't merit your character for HNM fights, and realize nobody is going to give a damn when they're giving the main guy a breather and letting you step in for him. They'll let you die because you're expendable, a tank who's making their jobs much more difficult instead of easier.

Again, 12 Mulsum > 8/8 MP merits. Absorbing and surviving a Citadel Buster just on raw HP alone= priceless.





Edited, Jun 7th 2008 3:03am by ScarShiva
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#19 Jun 04 2008 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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Well ccstwocents points out this is my first job to 75.

As to endgame stuff my current LS does not do them.

I would like to get into a LS that does them but my days off are Thursday and Fridays, and I dont get home till about 12am EST. So finding an LS that does Endgame stuff on these days is a bit difficult.

I can get used to having no mp but without a refresher in the party it is tougher to maintain cap on mp. I am starting to look into +hmp more and more now, but when the puller only gives you 10secs rest and no refresh 128mp (current lvl without gear)is not going to last long. With 10 secs I might be able to make back about 80mp or so. (I have not looked into all the numbers yet for this)

No cure 4 (88mp) that is for sure and flash(25mp)is 45sec's recast, so maintaining hate is a bit more of a challange through mp usage.

If Square could give us Galka 100mp extra at lvl 75 for PLD and Mage jobs I think we would all be a bit happier.

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#20 Jun 06 2008 at 12:29 PM Rating: Default
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Coincidentally, it has been expressed within our LS among some of the members (including myself) in all seriousness, that if SE would give us the option to change race just once, knowing what we know now compared to back then, would become an eunuch a Galka in a heartbeat. (and one of them doesn't even have pld(or nin) lvled, to my knowledge.)
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And not so we can max our MP merits...
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#21 Jun 06 2008 at 7:56 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If everyone is paying attention, 80 HP is completely negligible.

Except that even when everyone is paying attention a tank can still die. I'm pretty confident that every PLD in this thread gets killed sometimes, even when support is on the ball. An extra 80hp isn't huge, but it's also not negligible.
Quote:
If I'm sitting on full MP (and yes, even Galka can sometimes) I use it.

You should never be sitting at full mp. Even with an absurd refresh rate (which, again, would be an argument against mp merits), you can always find three seconds to cure for hate. That's the whole reason people aren't in favour of mp merits: they literally do you no good once the fight starts and your mp never maxes again. Even with Chivarly and Devotion you're getting that 80mp once every five minutes at the absolute most, and one extra Cure3 every five minutes simply isn't more useful than +80hp.

It's not that +80hp is godly -- it's not. It will keep you alive once in a while, and otherwise just give your healers a chance to breathe and be a smidge more mp efficient in curing you. However, that's still more than an extra 80mp offers. A PLD's max mp could be half what it is and have no effect at all on his performance in big fights.
#22 Jun 06 2008 at 11:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Caesura wrote:
Quote:
If everyone is paying attention, 80 HP is completely negligible.

Except that even when everyone is paying attention a tank can still die. I'm pretty confident that every PLD in this thread gets killed sometimes, even when support is on the ball. An extra 80hp isn't huge, but it's also not negligible.
Quote:
If I'm sitting on full MP (and yes, even Galka can sometimes) I use it.

You should never be sitting at full mp. Even with an absurd refresh rate (which, again, would be an argument against mp merits), you can always find three seconds to cure for hate. That's the whole reason people aren't in favour of mp merits: they literally do you no good once the fight starts and your mp never maxes again. Even with Chivarly and Devotion you're getting that 80mp once every five minutes at the absolute most, and one extra Cure3 every five minutes simply isn't more useful than +80hp.


This is exactly what I was saying earlier- max MP isn't what's important endgame. It's all about the Refresh rate.

Caesura wrote:
It's not that +80hp is godly -- it's not. It will keep you alive once in a while, and otherwise just give your healers a chance to breathe and be a smidge more mp efficient in curing you. However, that's still more than an extra 80mp offers. A PLD's max mp could be half what it is and have no effect at all on his performance in big fights.


One of the biggest benefits of HP merits is the flexibility it gives you. You can equip more +Enmity gear while retaining the same survivability, or go with your max HP set for even greater survivability.

And, you can also go with Serket Ring/Ether Ring at start of fight and macro in before Chivalry/Devotion, effectively gaining an additional 80 MP with no real HP loss. Burn off that MP and swap back to +Enmity rings once the MP is spent.
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#23 Jun 07 2008 at 12:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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ScarShiva wrote:
If you want to be that main PLD in your LS, you're meriting that HP 8/8 regardless of race. You know what the best merits for tanking are, you swap out gear for JA, spell casting, and Magic Damage reduction, and that's why you're the main PLD of an HNMLS.

If you're 2nd or lower, don't merit your character for HNM fights, and realize nobody is going to give a damn when they're giving the main guy a breather and letting you step in for him. They'll let you die because you're expendable, a tank who's making their jobs much more difficult instead of easier.

Again, 12 Mulsum > 8/8 MP merits. Absorbing and surviving a Citadel Buster just on raw HP alone= priceless.


Could not have said it better myself.

80MP has never made or broken a fight for me, but 80HP has saved my butt more times than I can remember.
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#24 Jun 07 2008 at 12:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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It feels like a moot point to keep playing the race card, but that's really the only argument I can make, since that is entirely what the original post was about. All I can really say is that in everything endgame I have done (which is, pretty much all engame mobs, aside from maybe 1 or 2) I have never EVER needed, wished I had, or died solely due to a lack of 80HP. I really didn't think the HP/MP ratio from Galka to Hume was that big, but if people really feel that strongly about 80HP, then i guess it is.

1600 HP, without equipping any items solely for HP is awesome, and I love it. I would not turn down more HP, but it gets to a point where a mob tearing through 1600+ HP before I can cure myself or be cured, just does not happen. And I feel what you said for HP as buffer holds true for MP. Yeah its only 50 MP, but that's still more time before I need to pop that Chivalry or ask for Devotion.

So yes I can see where HP Merits could greatly help/save another race, but I honestly have just not had that problem as a Galka. It all just comes down to race, again. I'm perfectly comfortoable in my HP, just as other races are in their MP, I'm sure.
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#25 Jun 07 2008 at 6:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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yes race should not make a difference in choice.... but race does make a major difference in what merits you should select.

Galka
1445
143

Elf
1324
266

Hume
1233
342

Mith
1233
342

Taru
1037
525

Those who say get 8/8HP have still yet to try and play with the Base MP pool that a Galka comes with.

Is it douable yes yes it is. But what would make it easier More Mp. Same with a Taru can a taru do pld with that few hps, yes it is.

You just equip gear different to overcome your weakness. Show me where I can equip 75 mp on a ring? show me where I canequip 80 mp on a back piece.

Get the MP merits as a Galka it will help with Hate Control cause it will give you the extra chance to Get and Maintain Hate.

Remember if you Move up to that #1 pld spot you can always Demerit and Lvl HP up later.

But the Right Here and now is Mp will help you More than Hp ever will... In the Future HP may very well be the way to go.

The very first thing you should merit is Chivalry Then Do Shield Skill, then make your decision about Hp and Mp.

Even after the 80 mp in merits other races still dont have to worry about the lack of MP issue. So to them it isnt a issue because at no time do they have that low of an amount of Mp.


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Get bent.
#26 Jun 07 2008 at 6:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Serket Ring/Ether Ring


O.o

So in the same breath Don’t use Mp merits because you can equip rings that will give you the Mp at the Cost of HP?

What sense does that make?

That just comes across as a total hypocritical statement to make. Don’t lvl Mp because you need more survivability. You need the 80 Hps to Survive.

But you could put on Serket and Ether that Sacrifices you Hp to give you more MP.

NO NO NO... make yourself more Survivable by getting the Mp in merits that way you don’t need the -hp gear to make up for your lack of Mp and you can then still pile on +hp gear and +enmity gear and still have greater Survivability then the other races playing pld.

____________________________
ScarShiva wrote:
Disclaimer: There seem to be a lot of PLDs on this board who get upset when I have the nerve to suggest things like wearing Peacock Charm full-time in XP is preferable over Shield Torque, Parade Gorget is a macro piece only, Tacos are worthless, Loquacious Earring > Boxer's Mantle for PLD/NIN, Polearm is a crock of sh*t for PLD, and all other types of heresy.

Get bent.
#27 Jun 07 2008 at 6:31 AM Rating: Decent
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SirGanon wrote:
It feels like a moot point to keep playing the race card, but that's really the only argument I can make, since that is entirely what the original post was about. All I can really say is that in everything endgame I have done (which is, pretty much all engame mobs, aside from maybe 1 or 2) I have never EVER needed, wished I had, or died solely due to a lack of 80HP. I really didn't think the HP/MP ratio from Galka to Hume was that big, but if people really feel that strongly about 80HP, then i guess it is.

1600 HP, without equipping any items solely for HP is awesome, and I love it. I would not turn down more HP, but it gets to a point where a mob tearing through 1600+ HP before I can cure myself or be cured, just does not happen. And I feel what you said for HP as buffer holds true for MP. Yeah its only 50 MP, but that's still more time before I need to pop that Chivalry or ask for Devotion.

So yes I can see where HP Merits could greatly help/save another race, but I honestly have just not had that problem as a Galka. It all just comes down to race, again. I'm perfectly comfortoable in my HP, just as other races are in their MP, I'm sure.


It feels like a moot point, but are you saying you've never died endgame? Are you saying there's never been a point where maybe, just maybe, having an extra 50 HP would have allowed that Cure V to get through?

There's been plenty of times I've lived to tank an entire battle where I would have died had it not been for the HP merits and additional HP I've equipped from gear. I've co-tanked with plenty of Galkas with full HP merits who have narrowly survived due to their massive HP advantage.

Just to all the Galkas reading this, when you're pushed to the side for the Elvaan with more HP than you because you decided to merit MP instead of HP, realize you lost your biggest advantage as a Galka PLD by making the choice to merit MP instead.

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#28 Jun 07 2008 at 6:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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I am galka and I have 8/8 HP merits.

I have seen my HP drop below the 10 mark a couple times now with these, and several times below that 80 mark.

Sometimes, sh*t happens. Man am I glad I have those HP merits :)
#29 Jun 07 2008 at 6:34 AM Rating: Good
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I'm a galka pld, and honestly, the max mp doesn't bother me too much outside of ballista. (although more hp would be good in that too) While playing galka, you learn not to use all of your mp at once, if the refresh rate is good, thats all that matters... unless you wanna cast raise
#30 Jun 07 2008 at 6:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Just to all the Galkas reading this, when you're pushed to the side for the Elvaan with more HP than you because you decided to merit MP instead of HP, realize you lost your biggest advantage as a Galka PLD by making the choice to merit MP instead.


WHAT?

are you serious?

Put a Galka and a Elf Side By Side
Equipped the exact same way
Galka does 8 Mp
Elf does 8 hp

That elf still isnt going to have More Hp
the Galka will be +41 HPs and the Elf will be +43 Mp

And the Galka will hold the sword like a warrior instead of a Sissy, Galka gonna win out everytime for that alone : P
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ScarShiva wrote:
Disclaimer: There seem to be a lot of PLDs on this board who get upset when I have the nerve to suggest things like wearing Peacock Charm full-time in XP is preferable over Shield Torque, Parade Gorget is a macro piece only, Tacos are worthless, Loquacious Earring > Boxer's Mantle for PLD/NIN, Polearm is a crock of sh*t for PLD, and all other types of heresy.

Get bent.
#31 Jun 07 2008 at 6:41 AM Rating: Decent
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ccstwocents wrote:
Quote:
Serket Ring/Ether Ring


O.o

So in the same breath Don’t use Mp merits because you can equip rings that will give you the Mp at the Cost of HP?

What sense does that make?

That just comes across as a total hypocritical statement to make. Don’t lvl Mp because you need more survivability. You need the 80 Hps to Survive.

But you could put on Serket and Ether that Sacrifices you Hp to give you more MP.

NO NO NO... make yourself more Survivable by getting the Mp in merits that way you don’t need the -hp gear to make up for your lack of Mp and you can then still pile on +hp gear and +enmity gear and still have greater Survivability then the other races playing pld.



No, it's called start a fight with those on if you're so worried about the 80 MP, and macro them out as soon as you've spent that MP.

If you're like me and realize that 80 MP is worthless for the most part, you wouldn't even bother with the whole Serket Ring/Ether Ring at start, preferring to max your Haste% and Enmity+ from gear the majority of the time, while swapping in Magic Defense Bonus/Resist sets as necessary. The great thing about Galka is keeping a much higher base HP while swapping in those other sets.

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#32 Jun 07 2008 at 6:44 AM Rating: Decent
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ccstwocents wrote:
Quote:
Just to all the Galkas reading this, when you're pushed to the side for the Elvaan with more HP than you because you decided to merit MP instead of HP, realize you lost your biggest advantage as a Galka PLD by making the choice to merit MP instead.


WHAT?

are you serious?

Put a Galka and a Elf Side By Side
Equipped the exact same way
Galka does 8 Mp
Elf does 8 hp

That elf still isnt going to have More Hp
the Galka will be +41 HPs and the Elf will be +43 Mp

And the Galka will hold the sword like a warrior instead of a Sissy, Galka gonna win out everytime for that alone : P


Right, and there aren't people with better gear who will be able to surpass that 41 HP and have a higher HP than you...

I know you said equipped the same way, but if you don't have 3/5 Homam, you're going to get eclipsed by the Elvaan who does if you choose to merit MP instead of HP. It's that simple.




Edited, Jun 7th 2008 10:46am by ScarShiva
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#33 Jun 07 2008 at 6:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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again lets get back on track

I agree to lvl HP merits - lets just make sure we are all on the same page.

We are talking about a lvl 75 pld as a first time job. The +mp is gonna benifit this galka more than any +hp will do at any point in game at this time.

I don't really know any hnmls that makes a first job 75 PLD be the main Tank. Due to lack of experinece lack of knowledge.

this Galka probably doesnt have a whole lot accomplished in the rest of the game.

If he is gonna go do Capped fights The +mp is gonna do wonders for him/her.

So far the only fight that I wish I had more Hp is AV and how often does that happen for me not a whole lot.

Lets look at another scenario your in a party that has a Blm cast a AM spell way before they should have that takes hate away. (and JA are down)

The Mob hits the Blm you are now gonna Cure the Blm to get Hate

Cure 4 didnt take the hate away. You cant cast another large Cure spell because you don't have any more Mp. Because you have already Cast Flash and a Cure 3 on your self.

You now have a Dead Blm. If you had the xtra Mp you could have dropped another Cure 3 or 4 and probably got hate back and brought the hate back under control.

All of these things happen in game.

How many Times has it happened that you didnt have enough HP more times than it did me as a Galka.

How many times did someone else die because I didnt have the Mp more times than I have ever wished that I had that xtra Hp.

____________________________
ScarShiva wrote:
Disclaimer: There seem to be a lot of PLDs on this board who get upset when I have the nerve to suggest things like wearing Peacock Charm full-time in XP is preferable over Shield Torque, Parade Gorget is a macro piece only, Tacos are worthless, Loquacious Earring > Boxer's Mantle for PLD/NIN, Polearm is a crock of sh*t for PLD, and all other types of heresy.

Get bent.
#34 Jun 07 2008 at 6:59 AM Rating: Decent
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ccstwocents wrote:
again lets get back on track

I agree to lvl HP merits - lets just make sure we are all on the same page.

We are talking about a lvl 75 pld as a first time job. The +mp is gonna benifit this galka more than any +hp will do at any point in game at this time.

I don't really know any hnmls that makes a first job 75 PLD be the main Tank. Due to lack of experinece lack of knowledge.

this Galka probably doesnt have a whole lot accomplished in the rest of the game.

If he is gonna go do Capped fights The +mp is gonna do wonders for him/her.

So far the only fight that I wish I had more Hp is AV and how often does that happen for me not a whole lot.

Lets look at another scenario your in a party that has a Blm cast a AM spell way before they should have that takes hate away. (and JA are down)

The Mob hits the Blm you are now gonna Cure the Blm to get Hate

Cure 4 didnt take the hate away. You cant cast another large Cure spell because you don't have any more Mp. Because you have already Cast Flash and a Cure 3 on your self.

You now have a Dead Blm. If you had the xtra Mp you could have dropped another Cure 3 or 4 and probably got hate back and brought the hate back under control.

All of these things happen in game.

How many Times has it happened that you didnt have enough HP more times than it did me as a Galka.

How many times did someone else die because I didnt have the Mp more times than I have ever wished that I had that xtra Hp.



Every time I've died, I've probably have lived for at least an extra 10-20 seconds as a Galka. In an endgame scenario, 10-20 seconds is a long time.

As far as the BLM pulling hate, not going to happen unless your DDs aren't worth their alliance spot. BLMs these days are nothing more than Stun/Cure bots. True story.

But, let's play along. I'd pop some Mulsums if my MP was that low I couldn't cast a Cure spell on the BLM. Problem solved.
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#35 Jun 07 2008 at 7:20 AM Rating: Decent
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if I have homan HP merits is where its at.

Pop a Muslim or 2 and cast (problem solved) only if the Mage was a Galka.

Again We give advise based on The Ultimate perfect scenario Endgmae PLD.

Give advise thats more reasonable and more helpfull to the game at this point in playing.

He joins an ls that has an Aegis and Ares Pld I dont care what He does they are not unseating that pld from number one until That Person either Quits, Transfers Servers, gets hacked, or becomes equipped the same as that Pld.


get the mp now it will help more in the here and now.
____________________________
ScarShiva wrote:
Disclaimer: There seem to be a lot of PLDs on this board who get upset when I have the nerve to suggest things like wearing Peacock Charm full-time in XP is preferable over Shield Torque, Parade Gorget is a macro piece only, Tacos are worthless, Loquacious Earring > Boxer's Mantle for PLD/NIN, Polearm is a crock of sh*t for PLD, and all other types of heresy.

Get bent.
#36 Jun 07 2008 at 7:22 AM Rating: Good
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1,076 posts
and oh yeah Hey Scar did you miss me?

I missed you : P

Glad to be back
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ScarShiva wrote:
Disclaimer: There seem to be a lot of PLDs on this board who get upset when I have the nerve to suggest things like wearing Peacock Charm full-time in XP is preferable over Shield Torque, Parade Gorget is a macro piece only, Tacos are worthless, Loquacious Earring > Boxer's Mantle for PLD/NIN, Polearm is a crock of sh*t for PLD, and all other types of heresy.

Get bent.
#37 Jun 07 2008 at 7:36 AM Rating: Decent
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ccstwocents wrote:
if I have homan HP merits is where its at.

Pop a Muslim or 2 and cast (problem solved) only if the Mage was a Galka.

Again We give advise based on The Ultimate perfect scenario Endgmae PLD.

Give advise thats more reasonable and more helpfull to the game at this point in playing.

He joins an ls that has an Aegis and Ares Pld I dont care what He does they are not unseating that pld from number one until That Person either Quits, Transfers Servers, gets hacked, or becomes equipped the same as that Pld.


get the mp now it will help more in the here and now.


Meh, you're not going to get accepted to an LS like that to begin with unless you have another 75 job (such as BRD) you can bring to events.
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#38 Jun 07 2008 at 8:11 AM Rating: Good
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I was accepted into a LS like that and I was accepted without having /nin and no other 75 (not even close).

At the time that I was accepted We had 2 aegis Plds. And I was 3rd on the list of Plds.

I was responsible for Smns on Kirin fights and I was Main on farming/Gods to learn how to tank in Endgame.

Thats how I got Wlegs so fast into my short time of playing.

That Ls broke and I joined 3 other ls's and at no point did another drop come my way.

I ran into the aegis wearing pld again and saw that most of the original team had gotten back together.

And I was brought back in. At this point I sit at 75 Pld 75 Sam /nin /war /thf /rdm.

but now there multiple ares plds (some not even 75 yet >.<)(one w/ a aegis and 1-2 w/ hauticlaire) so I am doing sam now but when it comes time for land kings i still am called into the game as a pld.

____________________________
ScarShiva wrote:
Disclaimer: There seem to be a lot of PLDs on this board who get upset when I have the nerve to suggest things like wearing Peacock Charm full-time in XP is preferable over Shield Torque, Parade Gorget is a macro piece only, Tacos are worthless, Loquacious Earring > Boxer's Mantle for PLD/NIN, Polearm is a crock of sh*t for PLD, and all other types of heresy.

Get bent.
#39 Jun 07 2008 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good
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Let's face reality. 99% of players aren't going to ding 75 and immediately go out looking for fights against Nidhogg. Being in an HNMLS is a huge time investment if you plan to make the multitude of HNM camps that most of such LS camp each and every day. Most of that time could better be used preparing yourself to fill the role the LS will need you for.

For example, most endgame LS will ask for an application, usually done over their personal website. On that application, they are going to ask what jobs you have to 75 and what merits you have, among other considerations such as mission status and crafting skills. If you're a brand new 75pld with 0 merits, odds are the members are going to vote against your joining since you're not bringing much to the table.

My recommendation:
Get to level 75 and bust your ass earning merits. Don't stop getting merits until you have everything finished. If you need a break from earning merits, then work on completing any missions you have to finish. Get ZMs done. Get PMs done. Get ToAU done. Go campaign battle and earn rank and allied notes (while earning merit points) to get the Iron Ram Sallet and Iron Ram Dastanas.

Either way, the whole deal with MP merits and why most people suggest against them is simply because once the fight starts you should never reach full MP again, except maybe after a Chivalry or Devotion. Having 80 extra MP that's nothing more than "blacked" out space at the end of your MP bar does you absolutely no good whatsoever. However, that 80 HP can be restored every time you cure yourself or someone cures you, without any need for messing around with gear.

Ultimately, HP>MP simply because you'll see full HP far more often than you'll ever see full MP.
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#40 Jun 07 2008 at 8:51 AM Rating: Decent
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ccstwocents wrote:
I was accepted into a LS like that and I was accepted without having /nin and no other 75 (not even close).

At the time that I was accepted We had 2 aegis Plds. And I was 3rd on the list of Plds.

I was responsible for Smns on Kirin fights and I was Main on farming/Gods to learn how to tank in Endgame.

Thats how I got Wlegs so fast into my short time of playing.

That Ls broke and I joined 3 other ls's and at no point did another drop come my way.

I ran into the aegis wearing pld again and saw that most of the original team had gotten back together.

And I was brought back in. At this point I sit at 75 Pld 75 Sam /nin /war /thf /rdm.

but now there multiple ares plds (some not even 75 yet >.<)(one w/ a aegis and 1-2 w/ hauticlaire) so I am doing sam now but when it comes time for land kings i still am called into the game as a pld.



There's a good chance you were invited to an LS like that simply because you were a Galka and so their main tanks could get a break from the joke we call Genbu, etc. Meriting HP would only look good on your application if you're applying for a PLD job- even if it's 2/8 HP, letting them know you intend to max that category out eventually.




Edited, Jun 7th 2008 1:40pm by ScarShiva
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#41 Jun 07 2008 at 11:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Just to all the Galkas reading this, when you're pushed to the side for the Elvaan with more HP than you because you decided to merit MP instead of HP, realize you lost your biggest advantage as a Galka PLD by making the choice to merit MP instead.


Lol, Sorry. I don't know what the people on your server are like, but if anyone aside from maybe a taru or mithra with no HP gear/merits is pushed aside from tanking, there are many sad, stupid people on your server.

And I never said I've never died in endgame; though no, aside from Dynamis I rarely do. I have total confidence in my mages, support, and co-tanks. All that will help me survive a hell of a lot longer than 50 HP. For me, MP=hate. No kidding more HP = more survivability, but that doesn't mean anything when I'm not the one holding hate. Like you said, if 80 HP from merits has saved your ass, then I guess having an extra 100-200 base. or however much more HP Galka has over a hume, saves me regularly, without me noticing. I don't usually think in terms of "Wow, I lived with 130 HP, thank God I'm not a hume!"

Again, I never said HP merits were bad, but but disregarding MP and whoring HP is just silly, especially for a Galka. It's getting hard to argue the point, since this is quickly turning into a 'Nuh-uh/Yeah-huh!' argument. So I'll just offer this: Neither HP nor MP merits are game breaking, but for any Galka needing an opinion, I'm 3/5 HP/MP Merits, and I feel it puts me at the perfect spot for my gear/endgame duties.

Edited, Jun 7th 2008 4:48pm by SirGanon
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#42 Jun 07 2008 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
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Is it just me or even with a max merited shell5 I sometimes get hit with citadel buster for like 100 more then my max hp even if I push it to 2150+. Annoys the hell out of me. ; ;

Of course the kinds of gear I wear to get that high would make a galka's mp near 0 lol...


The others nailed this one but in most situations you won't need megamax hp. Hp merits are there to mostly let you use other things in other slots while still trying to reach a comfortable amount of max hp. For most things you won't really have a need for more then 1500-1600 hp, though things like kirin or proto ultima you'd want a little more to be safer at times.

That being said I'd be annoyed to hell and back if I couldn't cast more then two cure4s back to back from full mp...

~Ori
#43 Jun 07 2008 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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Less max HP gear and more MDB and MDT gear?
#44 Jun 07 2008 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
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Well I didn't write that thought out completely. If I'm at 1800hp it could hit for 1900. If I'm at 1900 then it does 2000. 2150 -> pops for 2250. Usually I can survive with a good amount of hp to spare with just the shell but it's still annoying yet funny that it'll one-up me every so often like that when shell is supposed to be a flat reduction in magic dmg anyway... Just random bad luck sometimes (I remember on ventrilo my whm was cursing at how I got one-shotted with a freshly casted shell5 and my megamaxed hp, I laughed hard).

Oh well, didn't mean to multi-track drift the thread but just pointed out that there is at least one thing that can purely overcome any max hp with odd randomness for the unprepared. Just try to be more prepared to deal with those situations when you get there so your whm/team/etc don't roll their eyes.


~Ori
#45 Jun 07 2008 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
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Wow such a great debate over this.

Ok so here it is. I am not in a Endgame LS and from what you guys have mentioned it does not look like I will not get in one anytime soon.

From what I have read, I can see both sides of the story. Coming from me 143 base mp at lvl 75 sucks. So I think I will go 4/4 on hp/mp this way if I do get into a Endgame LS I dont have to make up 8hp merits but only 4.

But maybe you guys can help me further in this by explaining to me the following. What is the difference between the -hp to +mp gear like the electrum rings, to the Convert HP to MP like the Serket ring.

I know the electrum rings takes my max hp down and boosts my max mp up.
So gear swapping the electrum rings is no good when you want max hp because when you take them off your max hp has just been pushed up but the amount you have is the same. Will this be the case on the serket ring as well.
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#46 Jun 07 2008 at 6:23 PM Rating: Default
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Do not underestimate cover merits...
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#47 Jun 07 2008 at 7:28 PM Rating: Good
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When an item has +mp/-hp it will always add the written amount of mp regardless of how much hp was actually subtracted while a convert hp->mp ring will take into account how much hp you actually have.

For example, say you're weakened and only have 2hp. An electrum ring will give you +20mp while a serket or ether ring will give 1mp since you can't be pushed to or below 0hp through gear.

Hope that answers your question.

As far as hp or mp merits, honestly you should be more then able to give yourself a good answer for whatever it is you do or have access to. That hp buffer is quite handy at times and at other times a little bit of a waste. You shouldn't really need more then 1500 to tank most things (kirin and ultima are special but you can be prepared for them in different ways so this hp limit doesn't really have to budge all that much). If you don't have access to certain gears then you could buff your hp a bit to try and help by having some extra slack to take hits but it won't work as well as being prepared the right way.

For galka before sea access and homam/loq I'd imagine it'd be annoying to have so little mp. You do have mp items for macroing, like rse1 and 2, but that could be annoying and troublesome at times. The less I have to macro things around the better I can deal with ps2's wonderful limitations... but if you're on pc/etc then you have a bit more options and ease of use.

It's usually when you reach the point where max mp is no longer a concern that max hp merits are more viable. You don't automagically get there when you hit lv75 for the first time; it can take a while for you to either start up or join a sea static, get sea, make/join a limbus group and work your way to homam/loq.

At least wturban is easy to get and a highly useful thing for plds and even moreso for galka getting things rolling.

~Ori

Edited, Jun 8th 2008 1:43am by orinthia
#48 Jun 07 2008 at 11:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Here's the deal. Merit your character how you like, but I feel HP merits are the best bet, regardless of race. If you want MP, merit Chivalry 5/5 once you're able to this upcoming update. It's as simple as that.

We know how the Enmity system works for the most part now, and a Galka PLD has more real MP to play with than a TaruTaru ever did before all these updates. What does that mean?

Imagine a world where there is no Auto-Refresh, no Evoker's Roll, no Sanction/Sigil bonuses, no Devotion, no Ares Cuirass. That's how I grew up playing PLD, and I had plenty of MP to do my job as a Hume.

With all the updates to improve PLD, somehow that max MP doesn't look quite so attractive anymore. Max HP GEAR doesn't either. It's all about /NIN, Haste, +Enmity and Refresh rate these days. Being able to wear all that gear, even if it's -HP (Hydra Haubert), and still be at a high level of HP is an incredible thing. Again, a Galka has more MP to play with than a Tarutaru ever did pre-update.

I so wish I could tank as a Galka with full HP merits, an Aegis, and a Gjallarhabard. I'd be able to macro in full Magic Defense Bonus/Resist sets, etc. while remaining at a very high level of HP. Being able to completely swap out HP gear when a WHM Cure V bombs me for no reason to cure back some of that hate while remaining at a comfortable level of HP just adds a tremendous amount of safety to any group activity, nice for when you're having an off day.

The few times you really need MP, you can always pop a med of some kind. You can't use Hi-pots when you're dead though.

And this is to SirGanon- you could always just merit those HP and start off each battle and each Devotion with a Serket Ring instead of Hercules, losing only +3 Enmity from one of your rings, and get generally the same effect as you do from those 5 MP merits.

If you made a personal choice to merit the MP 5/8 there, great. Do me a favor though. Post a screenshot of every death that occurs, and tell us how it happened. I'll bet it will never be because of lack of MP!






Edited, Jun 8th 2008 3:53am by ScarShiva
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#49 Jun 08 2008 at 12:47 AM Rating: Good
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TheRealPeleus wrote:
Ok so here it is. I am not in a Endgame LS and from what you guys have mentioned it does not look like I will not get in one anytime soon.

From what I have read, I can see both sides of the story. Coming from me 143 base mp at lvl 75 sucks. So I think I will go 4/4 on hp/mp this way if I do get into a Endgame LS I dont have to make up 8hp merits but only 4.


4/4 HP/MP sounds like a good choice for you. There's more to this game than standing in front of an HNM with an alliance of mages at your back. Don't buy into Scarshiva's hyperbole. Even at an endgame event, that extra MP at the start of a fight or from Devotion/Chivalry will prove useful at least as often as a few more max HP will save a galkan's life.
#50 Jun 08 2008 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I am not in a Endgame LS and from what you guys have mentioned it does not look like I will not get in one anytime soon.


>< That's not true. They've confused you.
When they spoke about "having to have good merits to get into an hnm ls" or whatever they were for the most part talking about big, well established lnkshells which already have well-geared tanks. Those kinds of linkshell are not likely to be interested in fresh 75s. However everyone starts somewhere, and its usually in a smaller linkshell doing some sky and smaller HNMs. Eventually those linkshells will grow big (taking you along with them) or they will split, hopefully when have enough experience to be of more interest to bigger shells.

The idea that you need several 75 jobs or maxed out merits or pimped gear or wtf-aegis to start endgame is absolutely rubbish. Its just looking at a different kind of linkshell.

When I joined my first endgame shell I was 72pld (my highest job). It was brand new and very small and I was one of only 2 pld and 2 nin tanks. The leader taught me all the basics of sky and tanking gods, and I was shoved in front of Seiryu at lvl72. Yeah I broke Shadowbind and died 7 times, but it was worth it xD

Rock on endgame!

____________________________
Yawa - Carbuncle - "Real" jobs: 75BRD 75PLD - But secretly BST :D hohoho!
#51 Jun 08 2008 at 8:10 AM Rating: Decent
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merit the way you want to... period...at least with this thread you got to see every Paladin has different way of Tanking and mindset. Merit is a Personal choice to how your game play experience is and how you plan to play as a PLD. good luck! /salute
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