Defense comparison for DD and tank gearFollow

I'd be willing to do it, but I have a small problem: Most of my old tanking gear is gone, and I don't really want to invest in much of it again. I'll look in to it and let you know, though - I'm almost to the point that I can compare Hauby to Gallant Body (level 57 right now, should be 60 in a day or two).

And, for the record, I favor the DD build. Started as soon as I could equip a Woodsman Ring and have since decked out mostly in DD pieces. Fortunately, my SAM and BLU get to enjoy the pieces, too.

PLD doesn't need an update.

Here, I'll quote myself so all the fail PLDs who think we actually need an update can rate me down again. LMAO

Paladins per say don't need an Update.

What does need updated is the formula for Def how does having 999 def = the same as having 500 def.

What I do want cause im a greedy person is that Shield Reflect Dmg thing they was talking about. you teased me with it now give it to me!!!!

I am so looking forward to stuffing my shield into something's face and actually hurting them with it. I hope they add pointy spikes to the front of all of them. And sluices for the goo to drain cleanly. And maybe a battery pack to shock their exposed flesh with. Oh, and covered with poison. That explodes. That would be cool.

We don't need an update. o.o
****Skip to the last paragraph if you don't want to read the first hand experience but just the summary of ideals mentioned***
This is how I feel about tanking in DD gear vs. 'turtle' or tanking gear.

When you try to excell to the best point of both builds, gear wise and performance wise. On a Turtle setup, you can reduce damage so much with koenig and valor pieces, along with defender and defense food, and specially now with protect 5. This setup works on hate in a unique way. See, typically a PLD holds hate via provoke, flash, and curing. When we reduce the dmg we take to such a low amount, we have less and less HP to heal back, thus less and less hate. When a melee wears no enmity yet pulls hate off a tank with 30 enmity and who takes next to no substantial amount of dmg, we can clearly see the hate potential dealing raw damage can create. This is where a DD setup comes into play.

With the most recent updates to shield, shield mastery etc; Shield has easily come ahead at being more important than any of our other defensive gear, traits, or abilities, in single performance. If you took away everything we had to tank and had to chose one thing, it would be shield because if its phenominal defensive capabilities. Thusly, if you enhance shield via shield skill+, and trade off some tanking/vit/turtle gear for a mix of enmity and accuracy/attack, you maintain slightly more damage taken while dealing more damage as the trade off.

The thing is. When you look at it you cannot look solely at how much extra damage we take in a DD setup. What you want to look at is how we stil manage to hold hate at the same rate, but with the DD build we are contributing to killing the enemy that much faster. In a game of parsers where one DD is 5% ahead of another DD and bla bla bla; Having your PLD increase his DD from 10% to 17 or 20% is definitely worth the trouble. I was in a greater colibri party a week and a half ago, setup was WAR WAR NIN PLD/war(me) DNC(74) RDM(73 or 74).
My setup was:
Ohat
Haubergeon
Spikex2 earring
Company sword (used joyeuse as well, half and half because of the sheer difference in WS dmg between the joy and company)
Parade gorget
Woodsman
Venerer's ring
Amemeit +1 mantle
Life/warwolf belt
AFpants(yeah working on that)
Af boots

No food. Overall, All of my melee were able to eat food as I held hate through the first TP move, after the first they usually died before the 2nd tp move went off. xD I had sanction refresh and between me and the DNC we main healed. I wasn't in a turtle setup, I was taking much more damage than if i had been in a turtle/tanking setup. The key is we were still able to sustain unhindered speed on chaining enemies, while I was contributing to faster kills than we would have normally.

****In the end, its all about faster exp. Kill faster and you get faster exp. Seems simple to me. =) But only for Merit parties. Everywhere I go I take a mix of tank and DD gear to apply individually to each situation. To answer your question, yes, there is a difference. There is no sense in wearing tanking gear without using the full works, which include food and protect, and defender etc. To measure damage taken between a DD gearset and a tanking setup without using protect or food or defender etc. is a waste of time IMO because you are 1.) half assing the tank setup and 2.) not taking in account the amount of damage output increase from the DD setup, thus both contributing to skewed results from whatever conclusion you're trying to get to. D:

[edit] woops forgot to add. I will parse my next merit pt and take both gear setups. Ill parse dmg dealt by the melees and dmg i take in both gear setups.[/edit]

Edited, Jan 21st 2008 3:50pm by FenrirXIII

Things I'd love to see:

Your parse as a DD in that party;

Not only the average damage per hit, but your total damage taken per fight;

The total damage taken by other members of your party per fight;

The time difference per fight between turtle and DD PLD; and

Your xp average per hour both ways.

:P

...and don't WS in defensive headgear >.>

Apologize in advance: Wall of Text, but it relates to my testing. Also, any pointers given about my gear would be recommended, but note that I talk about my selection a bit later. Big thing that I'm looking at currently is the weapon. And the Gluttony Sword seems like such a waste of a sword, I don't want to bother with it.

OK, forgot to parse the experience, but I'll be able to shortly. Due to getting AF, I've found that I actually HAVE a tanking set (halfway through 58, and all I need is the NM fight for the body; should note, I've already bought a Hauby and it sits in my inventory mocking me for being too low level). As far as sword go, I've found that the one I'm using works fine. Especially now that we're in ToAU areas, I'm only seeing slight improvements with getting the +1/+2 versions (slightly faster, a few more damage), so I'm still using my trusty Tct.Mag. Espadon. I felt getting the hauby was more important that getting a new sword. Here's my two setups:

Level 58 Elvaan PLD

DD Gear
Main: Tct.Mag. Espadon
Sub: Ryl.Kgt. Army Shield
Ranged: -
Ammo: Olibanum Sachet
Head: Valkeryie's Mask
Neck: Parade Gorget --> Spike Necklace (when latent isn't active)
Ear1: Insomnia Earring
Ear2: Antivenom Earring
Body: Parade Cuirass
Hands: Ryl.Kgt. Mufflers
Finger1: Venerer's Ring
Finger2: Woodsman Ring
Back: High Breath Mantle
Waist: Astral Rope -> Life Belt
Legs: Ryl.Kgt. Breeches
Feet: Gallant Leggings

Tanking Gear
Main: Tct.Mag. Espadon
Sub: Ryl.Kgt. Army Shield
Ranged: -
Ammo: Olibanum Sachet
Head: Gallant Coronet
Neck: Parade Gorget
Ear1: Insomnia Earring
Ear2: Buckler Earring
Body: Parade Cuirass
Hands: Gallant Gauntlets
Finger1: Verve Ring +1
Finger2: Woodsman Ring
Back: High Breath Mantle
Waist: Astral Rope
Legs: Gallant Breeches
Feet: Gallant Leggings

Max MP Gear
Main: Tct.Mag. Espadon
Sub: Ryl.Kgt. Army Shield
Ranged: -
Ammo: Olibanum Sachet
Head: Valkeryie's Mask
Neck: Parade Gorget
Ear1: Insomnia Earring
Ear2: Antivenom Earring
Body: Parade Cuirass
Hands: Magna Gauntlets
Finger1: Venerer's Ring
Finger2: Woodsman Ring
Back: High Breath Mantle
Waist: Astral Rope
Legs: Magna M Chausses
Feet: Magna M Ledelsens

Couple of notes:

1) My brother and I own a PC between the two of us. Since I'm staticing with him and he's playing THF, he gets to use the PC. We're running a couple of more BCNMs so I can have my own. We've got the right setup - NIN/WAR, BLU/NIN, RDM/NIN or BLM/NIN, BLM/NIN, BLM/NIN - and we've done several runs. Have gotten three total so far, but have sold two of them. When I have one, this will replace my Spike Necklace.

2) The Buckler Earring I have macro'd for when I think I'm just taking too much damage. Really, though, I need to replace both earrings with spike earrings. It'd up my tp a little bit without sacrificing a whole lot.

3) When we started the party in Gustav Tunnel, we were over camping. I was barely into 57, and everyone else was 56 or less. Fights still went fast, but due to difficulty, I was usually able to use my Max MP gear. Once our lowest party member hit 57, though, things REALLY picked up, and we capped out at 6k/hr. The DD gear stayed on full time at that point, and between Parade Gorget, RDM Refresh, and Auto-Refresh, I was rarely below 100 mp by the end of a fight.

4) I actually found that I held hate better with the DD set up than with all the enmity from the Tank set up. I only lost hate twice the whole night (outside the 'first voke' thing, which was quite frankly really annoying - I can't WAIT for 60 for SO many reasons) to the SAM both times while in the Tank gear set.

5) The Tank Gear set only came on when I needed to maximize my defense because my health was falling quickly (four crits in a row followed by Big Scissors does that to a person...). I actually changed the name of the macro to "Oh $#17" for kicks. Noticed a small reduction in damage and, due to the Buckler Earring, I was able to get my cures off. I'm definitely keeping that earring around for that reason, though. Even if it's the only thing in the "Oh $#17" macro.

6) We didn't have a single death til the THF linked a crab while pulling an alchemist. Would have been fine, but our SAM decided to engage the crab JUST as the THF hit hide. Only the THF lived through that, and the party ended.

Like I mentioned earlier, I've got a Hauby coming and I'm to the NM fight of the Gallant Surcoat. I'll try parsing both sometime, since I'm at the ideal level range to do so. I'll also compare Sushi to Tacos, but I'm not really looking forward to that. I love my sushi too much.

Parse results will be forthcoming.

One final thing - 4 of the people in the parse will be static. I'm partying with my brother again, and we'll have the following set ups to every party we run. Notice the only thing missing are DD's. We should never have a problem putting the party together, and it'll be nice to have some constants to test against so that it isn't always a changing party - the more we can control the better. In fact, the MNK/WAR we partied with wanted to party with us again, so I may be able to have even more control over the variables in the test.

I think I'll start with doing a parse of both the tanking setup with defense food, a tank setup with sushi (Dorado, most likely), a DD setup with defense food, and a DD setup with sushi. I already have a good suspicion of what each will look like

PLD/WAR (me)
THF/NIN or THF/WAR (he wants to compare the two for himself)
RDM/WHM
WHM/BLM
DD
DD

Very interested in seeing the results... Tarudin 57 right now, and farming for Hauby, got Tct Mgc Espadon +1 instead of Gluttony, using Life Belt and Rajas Ring, and want to use Amemet Mantle +1 @ 61.

Pretty sure that I'll have more hate, just waiting to see if I'll take more damage, that setup is sacrificing about 18 VIT.

Not exactly, Attack becomes more and more useless because it takes so damn much of it to raise cRatio another .10 after you reach 2.0 and because of the 2.4 cap the "extra" attack ends up not being applied. Currently there is some sort of pDiff "floor" for when we're hit by monsters. After a certain point of Defense you simply can not lower the monsters cRatio anymore, this is also true with VIT and fSTR. Monsters don't have ridiculously high attack / STR, they have stupidly high base damage. Imagine a Greataxe DMG: 120 delay:250 and thats kinda what the mobs using at lvl 75. This is why shield skill is so great, its a percentage reduction so it cuts the damage regardless of the monsters stats.

SE doesn't need to make defense "mean more" as that would destroy the DDs output, they need to remove / alter the pDiff "floor" the monsters seem to have. Really once you reach enough defense so that the mobs hitting 1.0 cRatio anything beyond that seems useless. Really unless the mob uses an +attack move "berserk / warcry / boiling blood" 500+ defense won't make a noticeable difference.

On RDM/BLU I can get ridiculous amounts of defense, arround 750-800. I go fight EP monsters (without signet) and get hit for the same as my 500ish defense. So it shows there isn't a "defense cap" but rather a monster attack "floor".

{Yes, please.}

That was my original hope for this thread - to get some numerical insight on this. Perhaps with it we can have some more information on gear sets we can bring to events, and if there really is a difference between tanking monsters in DD gear versus turtle gear.

Rate up!

As always, Saev, I love your advice. I knew this, as well, but wasn't really factoring it in. My point was that my DD gear set held hate far better than my "tanking" gear set, despite having less enmity. I think a lot of it had to do with your point, though, in boosting the amount of damage done (which, as far as I've been able to follow, hasn't been completely figured out yet).

This parse is purely from the stand point of proving what most of us already know. Not to prove things one way or the other, so, as stated, I'd like to control as many variables as possible. If my party members allow, I'll even try to get their gear sets so that we can even see that information. My only fear is in not having enough data to give an adequate data set for analysis, and I don't know if I want to play this game forever. Like I said, Wednesday (tomorrow) night, I'll try the setups I've listed.

Well duh, WS swaps are a given. And anyway, my defensive headgear of choice has +evasion and +attack. But I still WS with a STR/DEX option.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 10:47pm by madrone

I had originally done some testing efforts to try to figure out more about the differences between how we hit mobs and how mobs hit us, and at the time, with some help from testers at BG, we found that, surprisingly, mobs do take into account level difference, and they take it into account both ways. That is, for every level they're higher than you they get a bonus, but they also get penalized when they're lower level than you.

So yes, we do get walloped harder by IT mobs just because. One more reason not to overhunt.

Most DD gear out there has similar DEF to the equivalent Turtle/tank setup.
You lose very little DEF going with a more DD type setup.

You are then realistically comparing VIT vs ATK/ACC which is a dead arguement.

With todays 2-handed DD, you need to worry more about keeping hate then mitigating damage through blood tanking. You're gear needs Enmity and good DD status to keep hate. I know pld who didn't go DD but have Enmity coming out their ass and they can hold their own keeping hate.

I've found I've had to rebalance my setup slightly from a heavy DD to a hybrid DD/Enmity build to help maintain hate. The 2-handers did get that much better. The AF pieces with Enmity can be good pieces to swap in/out for macros.

I still can't get my hands on a Wivre shield but when I do the mobs will rarely look away from me again.

Again, a warning: Huge wall of text. All the numbers are at the top, though... take that as you will.

OK, finally, I have information. Remember my generalizations from the previous post, since they apply to this information.

Only fights taking place within the 30 minute period of the food are used. As such, I've only included time from the first hit on the mob (the pull) to the time when the experience is given for defeating the mob. I'm actually surprised by the results, but let me my opinions after giving the results of the parse.

I also have to give my brother credit - he knew the first part of this was going to go much slower, but he was still willing to party with me. Probably because I didn't abandon him for ToAU areas just yet. I mean, really, who hasn't installed ToAU after this long...

Tank Gear with Tacos
Total Number of Fights: 9
Total Time: 19 minutes, 55 seconds
Total Time as Integer: 19.92
Fights/Minute: 9/19.92 = .45
Average Kill Time: 1 minute, 57 seconds
Average Wait Time Between Fights: 17 Seconds
Max Chain: 3
Average Chain: 3
Total Chains: 2
Total Experience: 1300
Experience/Minute: 1300/19.92 = 65.27
Experience/Hour: 65.27*60 = 3916.32
Total Damage: 7742
Damage/Minute: 7742/19.92 = 388.72
Damage/Hour: 388.72*60 = 23323.18

DD Gear with Dorado Sushi
Total Number of Fights: 14
Total Time: 29 minutes, 01 seconds
Total Time as Integer: 29.02
Fights/Minute: 14/29.02 = .48
Average Kill Time: 1 minute, 42 seconds
Average Wait Time Between Fights: 41 Seconds
Max Chain: 5
Average Chain: 4
Total Chains: 2
Total Experience: 2165
Experience/Minute: 2165/29.02 = 74.61
Experience/Hour: 65.27*60 = 4476.74
Total Damage: 17419
Damage/Minute: 17419/29.02 = 600.31
Damage/Hour: 600.31*60 = 36018.61

Comparison: Due to not getting the extra 10 minutes from the tanking gear, the numbers might be a little skewed, but by looking at the /minute and /hour markers, we can see how well they compare. Counting the full thirty minutes against the Tank Gear would make it look far better than it actually is, and this is against the entire point of the thread.

Damage Taken is more meaningful in per minute readings, since that's how we deal with it - in the moment. Taking a total of 36000 damage may seem like a lot per minute, but it's more meaningful in the per minute chunks. In other words, if you and your healer's are able to handle 600 damage per minute, then you'll work out just fine.

As such, we have 600.31 for DD vs. 388.72 for Tanking. That's a difference of 211.59 per minute, or, a Cure III + a Cure I/II more every minute for the DD setup. This should be easily in the realm of possibilities, depending on your party. Add in a regen effect, and this is even more meaningful. Of course, we're talking generalizations here. Gives you an appreciation for that damage, doesn't it?

The other big marker is the experience/hour, which is really the only way to truly express this value. So, what do we have? 4476.74 for DD vs. 3916.32 for traditional, a difference of 560.42. How much does that mean exactly? Let's see:

At 58, which we were, a player needs 16400 xp to get to 59. Let's assume the player is at an even 0, requiring all 16400 xp. The DD party will take 3.66 hours and the traditional tank will take 4.19 hours. That's a difference of half an hour! Even if it doesn't seem like that much, but it is the difference between using one more sushi and saving it for the next level. Over time, this will add up, and as better DD gear becomes available (Hauby, in particular), and at the cost of an extra 70 mp per minute, I don't think this is really that unreasonable.

Looking at the average time per fight, we see that the DD tank takes 15 less seconds per fight, actually saving about 2.5 attack rounds (I think - aren't attack rounds 6 seconds for most mobs?). It also allows us to amp up the xp/hour, since we're able to get more chains.

The average resting time seems VERY skewed to me, and when I looked at it, there were two resting periods that were both over a minute. ALL of the other ones were closer to 15 seconds, so I'm tempted to think that at least one of those was the result of the two goblin suicides we had in the course of the fight. I can't figure out why the second one had more than a minute wait time. Maybe someone went AFK or something. Regardless, both of these could have happened to EITHER tanking setup, so it's not really worth factoring in any differently, and we'll leave the 41 seconds as is. Just keep in mind that short of those killer single hits and people going afk, resting seems to be pretty close to the same.

The last thing I'm going to talk about is the chains. In both sets, two separate chains were achieved. In the traditional gear set, neither chain broke chain #2. Both chains had leeches interspersed, which helped to kill the total XP/hour, but not significanly, since the fights WERE fast. In the DD gear set, the first chain achieved chain #4 and the second achieved chain #5 (albeit, that was a LUCKY goblin suicide right at the end of the 30 minutes). So, it seems that at level 58, a DD party can achieve a consistent chain #4 (this was confirmed the rest of the night, I just don't have parses available at the moment).

What would be interesting to look at but would take more time than I care to pour into this, would be to see the number of cures that it takes to keep each tank alive per fight, so we could compare MP consumption as well. I'd be tempted to think the DD tank will take a little more mp, but the kills would be faster, giving more time for resting between fights for the mages.

That's all I've really got to say at the moment. If I could post the files (I've got an excel file I used as well as both parses - just remember that only information pertaining to the "food window" of each food against xp mobs is considered), I would, so if anyone has a place I can do that or can post them here, let me know through PM, and I'll either post the files or send them to you.

I should also note that another hour after I stopped parsing for this, we replaced the DRG with a DNC, and despite the lower DoT of the DNC, the entire party improved (atmosphere wise AND total party performance). We got closer to 5.5k/hour with the DNC, but I don't have parses to show that.

The parse was parsed using DirectParse 2.1.1.

Edit: Wrong Parser. >.>

Edited, Jan 24th 2008 8:07pm by Dracoth

You were overhunting and didn't have a BRD or COR to help compensate. I'd try that same camp at 60+ and compare the results again.

DD usually pulls out ahead in XP/hr even when overhunting from what I've seen, but going after VT/low IT mobs should be the goal.

I made the point simply because DD pulls so much further ahead of a tanking setup on level appropriate mobs it's not even funny.

wrong thread multi tab forum browsing = fail

Edited, Nov 26th 2008 7:13pm by shermantank

At 58, why use those items in a DD setting?
2x spike earrings and Royal Knights Chainmail would give you an additional +13 attack, 2str and 2 dex.

I know our Elvaan MP pool isn't the greatest but I wouldn't waist my ear slots on MP, especially in ToaU areas.

You're absolutely right. You're also about eight months late on the advice. Thanks, though.

The point was how much even small changes worked. And, the ENTIRE point of that I was using what I had, NOT what was optimal. If I did THAT much better with the SMALL changes, why wouldn't we believe that I'd do better with even more changes? Also, the Parade Cuirass helped with hate a little more than the Chain Mail would have and, at the least, I'd use it to macro in for Flash/JAs. Pretty simple analysis. But, remember, this was done a LONG time ago, and I didn't have the resources for gear that I have now.

Would I do it differently if I did it now? Most likely - for one, I wouldn't even consider using the MP earrings.

It got necrobumped. I'm happy to have it on the top page again, because it's somewhere new PLDs can see it. I'm also happy to have gone through the testing - it certainly made me realize the difference.

I noticed a difference just switching from Knightly Mantle (my turtle piece) and amemet mantle +1. I hold hate a little better now when I wear that, and a fowling earring for the accuracy+. Also a woodsman or sniper's ring on the second finger.

I will parse it within the next few days with my full dd gear vs full tank gear.

Edited, Oct 12th 2009 5:57pm by StephisaMAN