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HNM Tanking as PLD/NIN- A Beginner's F.A.Q.Follow

#27 Jun 26 2007 at 12:08 AM Rating: Good
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Again, I wanted to avoid mentioning specific gear because I don't want people to feel they can't use this combo with great success unless they have 3/5 Homam, Aegisjhalmr/Bahamut's Mask, etc.


That's how I felt before this post ; ;

#28 Jun 28 2007 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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bump.... can someone sticky this?
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#29 Jun 28 2007 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent
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bump.... can someone sticky this?


Added to the forum index sticky.
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#30 Jun 28 2007 at 11:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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On the cotanks thing, tanks are going to compete for hate, but really they shouldn't. Sure you COULD be a total *** and spike your hate so high that nothing can take it off you. Thats when tiamat lands, rips through your shadows and two shots you, instead of bouncing between tanks as shadows are lost.


That being said, if you're lagging behind on hate, your cotank shouldn't really slack off so much as you should step up your game. But things like letting your cotank cure you when you're getting hit in the air from a wyrm(and vice versa) instead of just spamming cure 4 on yourself endlessly and hogging all the hate is just not good for anyone really.


On the main topic, first kudos to the guide.


One thing I'd recommend looking at as well, for certain fights is using templar mace and possibly hospitaler earring(even if only macrod in) for cures. This would only apply to fights where you WILL be doing a healthy amount of curing. Wyrms are the biggest example of this since they'll spend half the fight spitting out decent damage magic attacks as well as middle to high damage AoEs(at least tiamat will since she wings or blasts every time she flies pretty much). Cerb can also deal enough damage that you'll cure enough to make that 15% cure worth it(cerb can really rape timers when he feels like it), but khim I've found doesn't usually spit out enough damage to be constantly curing enough and I stick to mac+1 on him.

Basically the idea is that if you're curing alot, then that 10% cure potency is a very very nice thing to have since it makes your cures more efficient MP wise as well as hate wise. If you're getting TP at a fast enough rate you can spam moonlight as well(I think moonlight is the second tier one).

Regardless I always macro in hospitaler in over ethereal for cures, and on mobs that will actually let me stretch my MP by curing I use templar full time as well.


On the general gear idea, as I still don't have a piece of homam, my original gear set for pld/nin leaned instead towards enmity moreso over haste(seriously like the only piece of haste gear I used was dusk gloves and that was cause they were the only gloves I was using on pld period. switched in swift belt soon as well).

I'd say around 30 enmity is a healthy number to shoot for on pld/nin. You'll prolly have more before you get homam(I had like 40 when I was first using pld/nin). 13-15% haste(depending on if you're lucky enough to have a speed/velo belt) and as I said around 30 enmity ends up being the ideal.


Point is though that if you're still not looking good on the haste front, enmity isn't that bad of a way to go, your flashes and what not will gain more hate which will somewhat make up for not having them come quite as often if not so much the timers issue.
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#31 Jul 18 2007 at 5:57 AM Rating: Good
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bump. Please sticky!!
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#32 Jul 19 2007 at 8:53 AM Rating: Good
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oh yes.. im bumping
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#33 Jul 20 2007 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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Read it for first time. Nicely done. Was feeling a bit of trepidation jumping into end game tanking when my pld hits 75 since my LS is already highly developed and most of the tankers are already hardcore veterans, since tanking is about the only thing I do not have prior experience to draw experience upon...

We do have have couple of pld/war specialists in my ls, but only 1 or 2 pld/nin specialists (and they usually come on other jobs) so I might have found my tanking niche since I should more then have my 15% min haste by the time pld is ready.
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#34 Jul 24 2007 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
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>.>....<.<.......... bump
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#35 Aug 10 2007 at 3:03 AM Rating: Good
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bump
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#36 Aug 10 2007 at 7:45 AM Rating: Good
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Excellent.. Thanks Scar.
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#37 Aug 10 2007 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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You have some good information for beginning PLD/NIN. A few issues I have are the level of difficulty you put on obtaining certain gear, Homam and Swift Belt especially. A competant group can kill Omega without difficulty (and with how easy they made COP now, everyone should have access to Sea at least), and its not hard to farm a swift belt up. I wouldn't suggest not subbing nin to something that strips AOE (Fafnir/Nidhogg etc), if you are at the point where you can't get shadows back up after it wings, you need to sleep it and recover. Khimaira hits like a ******* truck without shadows, same with Cerb and Tiamat. KB is the only HNM my shell subs war to, and thats because its a kite fight and you shouldn't be taking much damage anyways. KV we sub nin only to hold it, then we zerg it down. I would really rethink using Capricorn Staff, losing 7 enmity/better chivalry, access to spirits within/shield mastery, is not worth 5% haste. Macuahuitl +1/Koenig Shield is almost a third of the enmity you would be wearing, and that's only two slots.
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#38 Aug 10 2007 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
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/Sigh, if only this was around when Escape was still in business... then it wouldn't have been just Brill who knew how to tank Jormy... instead of the multiple 4 hour+ bloodbaths. Excellent guide, if only I wasn't on a break, then I'd go and fine tune that combo for myself.
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#39 Aug 11 2007 at 1:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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sharksie wrote:
You have some good information for beginning PLD/NIN. A few issues I have are the level of difficulty you put on obtaining certain gear, Homam and Swift Belt especially. A competant group can kill Omega without difficulty (and with how easy they made COP now, everyone should have access to Sea at least), and its not hard to farm a swift belt up.


LOL. I never said they were hard to obtain at all...

"Items that require a certain amount of CoP Missions complete as well as a significant time investment-"

Sure, it's easy to get a Swift Belt, but when there's 10 people who need one, you're down there for a while. I tanked over 13 Swift Belt NMs before I got to use my Fomor Codex. I tanked my **** off over a 2 day period before I got mine.

Just getting together the people for a Swift Belt run and farming your Codex often takes a "significant time investment".

As far as Proto-Omega, again, I never said it was hard. Even then, you need to put in the time to show up to multiple Limbus runs, and then hope and pray the body pieces you need drop once you're able to lot. I did a few runs where I saw nothing but Omega's Eyes X 2 drop.

Guess what, obtaining Homam requires a "significant time investment", regardless of whether it's easy or not. It can take 2-6 months to get a full set even if you have a big group and pop him once a week.

I certainly agree Proto-Omega is a joke of a fight to any but the most incompetent group, and that's why I never said Homam was hard to get. However, it does require a "significant time investment".

See where this discussion is going?


sharksie wrote:
I wouldn't suggest not subbing nin to something that strips AOE (Fafnir/Nidhogg etc), if you are at the point where you can't get shadows back up after it wings, you need to sleep it and recover.


Meh, I'd go to Fafnir/Nidhogg as /WAR just for a chance at claim with Provoke. If your shell can't support your tanks unless they're NIN or /NIN, you shouldn't be there in the first place IMO.

Good shells take down Fafnir rather quickly, and Nidhogg isn't much harder, although multiple wings can be a workout.

Granted, /NIN works just fine if you've got plenty of bots there to claim him and you just show up to tank.

sharksie wrote:
Khimaira hits like a @#%^ing truck without shadows, same with Cerb and Tiamat. KB is the only HNM my shell subs war to, and thats because its a kite fight and you shouldn't be taking much damage anyways. KV we sub nin only to hold it, then we zerg it down. I would really rethink using Capricorn Staff, losing 7 enmity/better chivalry, access to spirits within/shield mastery, is not worth 5% haste. Macuahuitl +1/Koenig Shield is almost a third of the enmity you would be wearing, and that's only two slots.


If I have Double March and Haste, I don't need Capricorn Staff to cap my timers and I don't use it.

However, in the instances I do use Capricorn Staff, I'm most likely fighting something shorthanded and lacking the proper support. Granted, that extra +7 Enmity is great for reaching the hate cap more quickly, until you get smacked with shadows down due to falling behind on timers. You keep better hate if you minimize the hate bleed as much as possible. In those kinds of situations, keeping up shadows is what's most important and Haste% is what makes it happen.

I'm willing to bet you didn't even really read what I said about Capricorn Staff though.


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#40sharksie, Posted: Aug 11 2007 at 9:26 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Uh, sorry, we don't bot. Flash is a better claiming tool then provoke, since it doesn't get eaten nearly as much. And I did read what you said about the staff, and its still stupid. You lose out on 100% (read that number again) spell interruption with a shield block (that means if you're casting ichi and you get hit but shield procs, it doesn't get interrupted). You lose out on spirits within, you lose out on 7 enmity (yes im saying that again because 7 enmity substantial). When you do get hit with a staff equiped, its virtually impossible to get ichi up if ni is down, unless if you dont have hate (which is probably why you dont notice a difference). Think of how much "hate bleed" you're doing when you're constantly getting hit for 300s, because you don't get any damage reduction from a shield. And the 7 enmity isnt for a hate cap, its so that you can stay above the melees, the mages, and the other tank (yes, co-tanking should be treated as a competition) every step of the way. i can guarantee you that i would outtank you, me wearing a sword/shield, and you wearing that staff. my shell takes down fafnir in 10 minutes, nid in a bit under 20. we have two tanks, and we never have hate issues. oh, and you can do a swift belt run with 6, we got 3/6 people a belt in 2 hours. Limbus is a 45 minute event 2 times a week, thats not a big time commitment either.
#41 Aug 11 2007 at 11:49 PM Rating: Decent
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I think you need to reread what he said again, carefully.

Also if you don't think obtaining Homam gear isn't a time investment, I think your crazy. 2 times a week you need to gather, you need to setup. Unless your focus is only around apollyon zones, my linkshell does a temenos and an apollyon once a week. So it would take 4 weeks to farm up a Omega set, then you need to be able to cast lots, then you need to hope that a piece you need drops in the 2-3 that can drop, if not it's back to doing the zones again. If your not into endgame, then this will likely not happen. If you join a shell, then you are likely a long time away from getting a piece. If you make a shell, then you are a long time in setting it up, getting the pops, and making sure everyone is on the same level for the events.

If that's not a time investment, I don't know what is.

#42 Aug 12 2007 at 2:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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sharksie wrote:
Uh, sorry, we don't bot. Flash is a better claiming tool then provoke, since it doesn't get eaten nearly as much.


Flash + Provoke> Flash for claiming.

Unless you're playing on a LAN with everyone in your LS, and you know exactly what everyone's running on their PC, you really can't say you don't bot. You have no way of knowing whether that guy next to you is really PS2 player or not, etc.

sharksie wrote:
And I did read what you said about the staff, and its still stupid. You lose out on 100% (read that number again) spell interruption with a shield block (that means if you're casting ichi and you get hit but shield procs, it doesn't get interrupted).


It's a good thing you're PLD/NIN and not NIN/DRK or you'd be in trouble, bro.

My reply- Learn to Utsusemi...

sharksie wrote:
You lose out on spirits within,


lolSpiritsWithin

sharksie wrote:
you lose out on 7 enmity (yes im saying that again because 7 enmity substantial). When you do get hit with a staff equiped, its virtually impossible to get ichi up if ni is down, unless if you dont have hate (which is probably why you dont notice a difference). Think of how much "hate bleed" you're doing when you're constantly getting hit for 300s, because you don't get any damage reduction from a shield.


Think of how much your co-tank sucks if you're getting constantly hit for 300s and you still have hate.

Obviously, you don't understand what a shorthanded situation is. What if you claimed Khimaira with only yourself, another PLD/NIN, a WHM, and RDM, and you had to hold him until your DDs and BRDs showed up?

Do you honestly think Enmity+7 from Macahuitl+1 and Koenig Shield and a Swift Belt would do more for you than Capricorn Staff and Haste Belt?

The second set of items would do more to lower timers and reduce MP expenditure than the first set, as long as you know how to recast Utsusemi, that is. You clearly don't understand what the word "situational" means.

sharksie wrote:
And the 7 enmity isnt for a hate cap, its so that you can stay above the melees, the mages, and the other tank (yes, co-tanking should be treated as a competition) every step of the way.


You have little understanding of how hate actually works. There is a hate cap, and all +Enmity does is decrease the amount of time it takes to hit that cap.

In the situation I described with Khimaira, clearly +Enmity isn't as important as boosting Haste% to lower the amount of damage taken.

Co-tanking should be treated as a cooperative competition. Both co-tanks should be doing as much as they can to boost their hate unless it's counter-productive. If my Utsusemi timers aren't ready, and casting a Cure III or IV will result in me getting blasted instead of my co-tank with the full set of shadows ready, I'd be a fool to cast that Cure IV.


sharksie wrote:
i can guarantee you that i would outtank you, me wearing a sword/shield, and you wearing that staff.


Do you want a medal to pin to your chest that says, "I would outtank Scar if he was using that Capricorn Staff thingy" or something?

I *could* guarantee I can cast Utsusemi better than you, since I don't have any problems keeping shadows up even without Shield Mastery, but considering I've never seen you tank, I'd be a fool for saying it.

However, I have seen you write.

I can guarantee you that I'd outwrite you, me using paragraphs, proper spelling and punctuation, backed up with common sense and experience, and you writing wall-of-texts based on truthiness and which prove you have no idea of what certain vocabulary words really mean.

Don't forget, the people who have more "situational" gear and the knowledge to use it correctly can and will outtank, outnuke, outcure, outenfeeble, or outwhatever you. That's how this game works, and the sooner you understand that, the better you'll be as a player.

sharksie wrote:
my shell takes down fafnir in 10 minutes, nid in a bit under 20. we have two tanks, and we never have hate issues.


That's great.

sharksie wrote:
oh, and you can do a swift belt run with 6, we got 3/6 people a belt in 2 hours. Limbus is a 45 minute event 2 times a week, thats not a big time commitment either.


"Big time commitment" and "significant time investment" do not mean the same thing...

Just gathering together a group of 6 people to do a Swift Belt run can take more than 2 hours. Farming a Fomor Codex can take more than 2 hours, which is why lazy people or people in a rush often buy them. Building up enough Fomor hate to even pop the NM can require a "significant time investment" if everybody is at level 1 hate. I could go on and on, but it's not worth the "significant time investment" to do so.

Attending Limbus for 45 minutes 8 times a month for 2-12 months before obtaining a full set of Homam is a "significant time investment," and that's not even factoring in the time required to farm the gil for entrance fees, tools, and food.

In any case, when I said "significant time investment", I simply meant you will have to put in some effort to get those items. You can't buy those items from the AH, you have to complete a certain amount of CoP missions to even attempt to acquire them, and you won't get a full suit of Homam in 15 minutes.

If you can't agree with what I'm saying here, we'll never agree. If you want to keep arguing, we can continue to do so. I don't mind derailing the guide. LOL






Edited, Aug 13th 2007 12:13am by ScarShiva
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#43 Aug 12 2007 at 2:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hmm, if you have decent backup, like you should for any planned pop like a god or ultima/omega, or you already have your people there at a HNM spawn, you should always be using sword/shield, because you should be able to hit the recast cap without needing capricorn staff.

That said, I see your point in using it if you are shorthanded, or if perhaps your alliance doesn't have a bard. Losing out on shield mastery is a bummer, but that 5% can be the difference in whether you're able to get your shadow recasts up in time or not. So, in most cases you will want to have macc+1 and koenig shield, but in a less than ideal situation, scar is right about sacrificing that for additional haste.

Edit: Just an addendum, I can't really recommend ever using a Haste belt, since when you use an enchanted item in battle, it stops you from doing anything else for the next several seconds. If you can do it while your co-tank has hate, then that's fine, but if the mob turns on you while you're unable to act, it could prove fatal.

Edited, Aug 12th 2007 6:29pm by WraithPK
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#44 Aug 12 2007 at 2:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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WraithPK wrote:
Edit: Just an addendum, I can't really recommend ever using a Haste belt, since when you use an enchanted item in battle, it stops you from doing anything else for the next several seconds. If you can do it while your co-tank has hate, then that's fine, but if the mob turns on you while you're unable to act, it could prove fatal.


It takes about 6-7 seconds to fire it off, and the effect lasts for 3 minutes. It can easily be activated after a fresh set of shadows are be put up.

In a shorthanded situation, 11% Haste (which doesn't count toward equipment Haste%) is worth the risk IMO.
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#45 Aug 12 2007 at 11:46 PM Rating: Good
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I can personally think of a good handful of situations where Cap. Staff might be of better use over sword/shield.

Small cerb/khim claming/holding parties are nice here unless you have a brd on the scene. IMO the point when the brd shows up its better to put the shield back on.

Bahamut V2 is a nice example of a situation Cap. Staff might be better. Shield procs on him are few and far between from what ive personally noticed. I actually didnt see any at all until I put 318ish shield skill on, and even then it was 1/8, Tried a buckler even, he still clowned my shield skill. Its better to only have 1 tank on this so you wont have a co-tank to bounce. He strips shadows often, and swings fast. Damage is very controlled in this fight so hate usually only comes from rdms trying to dispel and Healers, so going light on enmity wont get anyone killed here. You lose haste often do to his Roar spam so capping out haste in equip would be the best idea.

Quote:
(yes, co-tanking should be treated as a competition)


This is what gets people killed. Alpha-tanking doesnt work, LS's that have been around a bit generally have a set 3-4 tanks. They learn each others playstyles and they talk to each other. Get to know your co-tank, dont attempt to blow him out of the water.


Tanking gear is so situational you can not possibly say what is 100% for sure the best. Boils down to what your fighting, what your LS brings to the table and what you and your co-tank have equip-wise.

That being said, this is a Beginners FAQ, If your new to it then a Homam set would be extreamly hard to come-across, getting homam pieces takes alot of dedication and a good handful of luck. Without homam your only missing out on 6-9% haste this by no means, makes or breaks /nin. Its a very common mis-conception that Homam is needed before a pld can attempt /nin.

This is not the case, A Turban, some misc. haste-bits, a good brd and a good whm or rdm will be the the far bigger factor. March and haste brings alot more to the table then 2-3 pieces of homam could ever dream to do.

Here is my beginner's guide:

Step 1: change your sub to /nin
Step 2: Find a skilled bard
Step 3: Have bard sing march for you and land elegy on your target.
Step 4: Find a skilled Rdm and/or whm.
Step 5: have rdm and/or whm cast haste on you and debuff your target.
Step 6: Come back to this guide to start to piece together your haste build as suggested in Scar's Guide of items to obtain. Put together what pieces you can and make this your current goal in FFXI to come up with the rest.
Step 7: Profit

Take your time with step 6, haste gear wont fall on your lap over-night. Go get started, practice your recasts and practice co-tanking and bouncing hate to maximize your recast timers.

It used to be done before the shield patch, before the release of homam and turbans etc.

pld/nin has always been around, and has always done well. Everyone was just scared of not having provoke. Your hate is in your cures, your Recasts timers are helped by your party buffs. Everything else just makes it easier.


Edit: flash does get owned on claims due to speed. Provoke can be spammed out of your menu until It reaches the small window of claimable. So you either get it or someone just had spammed it at a .01second better. Instant JA's are the best claim tool. There is no cast time to worry about having timed right. Instant Target effecting JA's are few and far between. Voke and shadowbind are usually your best contenders.

Spell-wise 1.25-1.5 is your goal for cast times for NM claims if im not mistaken. Not taking into account any sort of fast-cast. Flash is .5 so if your spamming it, you will more then likely get owned due to speed.


Edited, Aug 13th 2007 4:06am by midgardDamac
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#46 Aug 13 2007 at 4:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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I bet capricorn staff would be better for tanking the mini hnm's in nyzul assault.
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#47sharksie, Posted: Aug 13 2007 at 5:45 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) if you're trying to claim something, you don't have time to hit provoke, have it get eaten, then try to flash it. it's claimed after your first attempt with all the people in say aery. oh, and i've solo held khimaira with just a bard and rdm, with a sword/shield. nin can evade attacks, which is why its easier for them to get ichi up, plus they get another shadow from ni. paladin will need to get very lucky on a parry/evade to get ichi up if you aren't using a shield.
#48 Aug 13 2007 at 8:35 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Provoke can be spammed out of your menu until It reaches the small window of claimable.



Quote:
Small cerb/khim claming/holding parties are nice here unless you have a brd on the scene. IMO the point when the brd shows up its better to put the shield back on.


I think we missed something.

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#49 Aug 13 2007 at 11:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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sharksie wrote:
if you're trying to claim something, you don't have time to hit provoke, have it get eaten, then try to flash it. it's claimed after your first attempt with all the people in say aery.


Really? I didn't know that. LOL

Provoke for the claim attempt and Flash to solidify hate once you or somebody in your alliance claimed it.

sharksie wrote:
oh, and i've solo held khimaira with just a bard and rdm, with a sword/shield.


How can you solo hold anything with 2 people helping you? Food for thought.

And LOL at "with just a BRD and RDM". You do realize that's the best support in the game for holding anything, right? Even if it took 4-5 tries to stick Elegy, you do realize it's not that challenging to hold him once you have Slow II and Elegy stuck on him, right? Or was I supposed to be impressed?

I use Sword/Shield anytime I have RDM and BRD support, which is 99.99% of the time, so don't think I use Capricorn Staff much if at all. In other words, let it go, man.

sharksie wrote:
nin can evade attacks, which is why its easier for them to get ichi up, plus they get another shadow from ni. paladin will need to get very lucky on a parry/evade to get ichi up if you aren't using a shield.


NINs don't evade HNMs enough for it to be reliable, especially Khimaira with his random attacks, and especially when they don't gear for it.

Again, quit making excuses. If you can't keep up shadows without the crutch I call Shield Mastery, learn to Utsusemi.

Shield Mastery was a great addition, but the best PLD/NINs were tanking anything and everything in the game before it was even added. It makes things easier, but a good sense of timing makes it redundant.

sharksie wrote:
oh, and lol @ this being an english class. if that's all you got left, go somewhere else.


So, tell me, have you learned what "significant time investment" means yet? It's evident you haven't learned what the word "situational" means yet, or how to write a proper paragraph.

I fail as a teacher, obviously.







Edited, Aug 13th 2007 10:13pm by ScarShiva
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Retired
#50sharksie, Posted: Aug 13 2007 at 2:53 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Am
#51 Aug 26 2007 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
Bumped for an easy find.
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