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HNM Tanking as PLD/NIN- A Beginner's F.A.Q.Follow

#1 Jun 20 2007 at 4:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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PLD/NIN isn't a new concept. It's been around for quite some time now. Anybody who's been playing FFXI at the end game level for any amount of time has more than likely seen PLD/NINs, NIN/DRKs, RDM/NINs and maybe even other combos such as PLD/RDM and NIN/RDM being used with great effectiveness. If this is true in your case and you understand the basic concepts of how these combos work, what kind of gear is ideal and why, this F.A.Q. probably isn't for you.



Why PLD/NIN?


This is usually one of the first questions asked by PLDs unfamiliar with how PLD/NIN works.

After all, they've most likely been subbing /WAR since their first XP party as PLD and continued to do so all the way to 75. Some of them might not even have their /NIN sub leveled to 37 yet. They might have taken /NIN to 18 as a subjob for WAR, or possibly used /MNK or /THF and grinded out 30-37 WAR as quickly as they could so they could get back to leveling PLD. Some of them might have even went WAR/PLD with a Sword and Shield. They might not understand exactly how a PLD/NIN could keep hate at all without abilities like Provoke, and why Utsusemi would be preferable to Defender, especially since PLDs aren't very good at evading things to begin with.

So, again, why would a PLD choose to sub /NIN to tank a particular mob?

If they're able to keep hate without resorting to /WAR and they're able to keep Utsusemi up fairly often, /NIN can reduce a lot more physical damage than /WAR, and Utsusemi can also absorb single target enfeebles and spells that could potentially 1-shot a /WAR.



Is PLD/NIN always the best option?


No. PLD/NIN works well on monsters that don't use a lot of AOE shadow stripping TP moves or spells, and works best with a co-tank to share hate (although this part is true for /WAR as well). PLD/NIN also requires certain gear and the proper support for the best results.




How is it possible to tank without /WAR?


Subbing /WAR gives access to some great abilities that help to control hate and reduce damage. Provoke, Warcry, and Defender are the main benefits a 75 PLD gets from /WAR sub.

Job abilities such as Sentinel, Rampart, and Shield Bash and spells like Flash and Cures don't require a /WAR subjob, though, and they also happen to generate a lot of hate, especially with a good amount of +Enmity gear.

However, while the job abilities are nice, they're on fairly long timers, which leaves nothing but spells to generate the majority of hate. Fortunately, Flash generates a nice amount of hate, even though it can only be cast once every 45 seconds.



Wait, Flash can only be cast every 45 seconds?


No, I lied.

The recast will be 45 seconds only if you have no Haste whatsoever. If a RDM or WHM casts the Haste spell on you, you'll be able to cast Flash every 37 seconds.

Here's where it gets interesting. The Haste spell increases your overall Haste% by 15%. If you wear gear that adds Haste%, the recast time on Flash will be lowered even further. There are also BRD songs that add Haste%. Victory March adds 11% and Advancing March adds 9% Haste, respectively.

People started testing Haste% once they figured out it cut recast timers on spells as well as reduced melee speed, and they've discovered there's a 50% cap on Haste as far as spell recasts are concerned.

If you can hit that 50% Haste cap between gear and buffs, your recast on Flash will be 22 seconds. Casting Flash this often (or close to it) is how PLD can generate incredible amounts of hate even without Provoke, especially if they pile on the Enmity+.



Wait, Utsusemi is considered a spell, right? Does Haste% affect it in the same way?


It most certainly does, and it's the entire trick to making PLD/NIN work most effectively. When you can cast Utsusemi: Ichi every 15 seconds and Utsusemi: Ni every 22 seconds, it becomes much easier to keep shadows up the majority of time, especially if you have a co-tank generating similar amounts of hate and you're able to share hate well with each other.



This requires incredibly expensive gear I'll never be able to afford?


Not necessarily. Luckily, Speed Belt isn't a required piece of gear to make this work. Also, there are plenty of rare/ex pieces which make it easier for a PLD/NIN to put together an effective Haste% build.



Wait, you said Rare/Ex, didn't you? I suppose now you're going to say I need Zilart and CoP complete and doing all those "Limboose" runs for "Homamamy" gear or whatever, right?


Not necessarily, although having CoP complete and being able to do Limbus runs for Homam gear certainly doesn't hurt if you want the best PLD/NIN build you can put together.



OK, how much Haste% gear do I actually need, and what are my options?


If you have a BRD for double March and a WHM or RDM for Haste, you're looking at a total of 35% Haste. That means you'll only need to wear 15% worth of Haste from gear to cap your recast timers at 50%. Try to get at least 10-12% Haste if you can't manage to get 15% or more.

Remember, when it comes to Haste%, more is better. A single BRD in the tank party can sing something other than March X 2 (like Ballad II or Foe Sirvente) if you and your co-tanks have a strong enough Haste% build.

If you don't have any Haste% gear and you're still trying to clear Promyvion-Mea to continue your CoP progress, your options are a bit limited. Let's go over them though.

Budget Items-
  • Blitz Ring (Ring)- Haste+1%
  • Walahra Turban (Head) - HP+30, MP+30, Haste+5%
  • Capricorn Staff (Staff) - Haste+5%
  • Quick Belt (Waist) - HP-15, Haste+2%
  • Haste Belt (Waist) - DEF: 4, Enchantment: Haste (I believe Enchantment is 10% Haste but I'd have to test it to make sure. The effect does stack with the Haste spell)

Items that require a bit more effort-
  • Dusk Gloves (Hands) - DEF: 24, HP+20, Haste+3%
  • Dusk Ledelsens (Feet) - DEF: 23, HP+25, Haste+2%

Items even harder to obtain-
  • Dusk Gloves+1 (Hands) - DEF: 25, HP+22, Haste+4%
  • Dusk Ledelsens+1 (Feet) - DEF: 24, HP+27, Haste+3%
  • Speed Belt/Velocious Belt - Haste+6%

Items that require a certain amount of CoP Missions complete as well as a significant time investment-

Mission 4-2 - The Savage completed or higher (required for access to Sacrarium)
  • Swift Belt- Haste+4%

Mission 7-5 - A Warrior's Path completed or higher (required for access to Al'Taieu and Limbus)
  • Homam Manopolas (Hands) - DEF: 20, HP+20, MP+20, ACC+3, Enmity+3, Haste+3%
  • Homam Cosciales (Legs) - DEF: 35, HP+26, MP+26, ACC+3, Enhances Fast Cast Effect, Haste+3%
  • Homam Gambieras (Feet) - DEF: 16, HP+31, MP+31, ACC+6, Haste+3%
  • Homam Zucchetto (Head) - DEF: 26, HP+22, MP+22, ACC+4, Magic ACC+4, Haste+3%



OK, I've got 10-15% Haste or higher from gear. What do I focus on now?


Good question. Enmity should be your biggest priority after you have enough Haste%, because as much hate generation as possible is your goal.

Try to add as much HP as you can without neglecting Enmity+. Pieces which add both Enmity+ and HP+ like High Breath Mantle, AF/AF2 (in slots not filled by Haste), and Sattva Ring are often great choices for this very reason.

I strongly recommend Harmonia's Torque (VIT-5, Enmity+3) for the neck slot until you can obtain the Ritter Gorget (DEF: 8, HP+25, Evasion+5, Enmity+3), an item which can be purchased from the Einherjar NPC, Kilusha, for 15,000 Ampoules of Therion Ichor.



This F.A.Q. makes everything sound so easy, but surely PLD/NIN's not as simple as piling on the Haste% and Enmity+ and casting Flash as much as possible, curing and using job abilities appropriately? Or is it?


Yes and no. It's honestly not that hard of a concept, and it's easy to generate a nice amount of hate fairly easily just by casting Flash every 22 seconds with a high +Enmity score and casting Cures as needed.

With that being said, there's a certain room for finesse. Firing off Sentinel just because the timer is up isn't always the best approach. Job abilities can be useful to spike hate and grab it off your co-tank when they get caught with shadows down, so it's definitely something to keep in mind before you use one. Rampart is best used to reduce AOE damage from -ga spells or any magical based move that strips or goes through shadows.

Job abilities can also be saved to help get hate back easier when you know you might lose it to someone other than your co-tank. Some mobs have hate reset moves and saving Sentinel or Rampart for those times really helps minimize the problems this can cause. Finesse and the awareness of what's the best choice in each and every situation will only come with more experience and practice, and is exactly what separates the veteran tanks from the newer guys who need a F.A.Q. like this in the first place.

Sometimes, you'll even want to stop firing the Flashes every 22 seconds, just because your hate is just that much higher than your co-tank, and they need a bit of leeway to catch up. Other times, you'll be working overtime just because your co-tank is that much ahead of you.

Remember, mistakes are a part of the learning process, and they're going to happen from time to time. The important thing is not repeating them.



Is there any use for +Shield gear?

Yes. One thing you need to learn very quickly is playing PLD/NIN depends a lot more on creative gear swapping to get the most out of it.

While this is true for PLD/WAR and any other job in FFXI as well, many PLDs don't utilize macro swaps as much as other jobs do on the road to 75, especially if it's their first post-30 job.

Macroing in +Shield gear can be useful during Utsusemi recasts, as a shield block will prevent it being interrupted thanks to Shield Mastery.

It's also a smart thing to swap in +Shield gear when you have hate, your shadows are down, and you're waiting on timers.

Utilizing macros to their fullest also applies to Haste% gear.

Maybe your Haste% gear isn't spectacular, so you decide to pick up a Blitz Ring to put you at Haste+12-14%. You might want to consider swapping that ring in just for Utsusemi recasts, and swapping Hercule's Ring in its place for Flash and Cures. Also, it's a good idea to macro out that Swift Belt for a Warwolf Belt for Cures and Job Abilities as well.



What about resistance sets? I've heard a lot about those. How do they apply to PLD/NIN?


I won't cover this too much, but you'll want to work on creating an all purpose -Magic Damage% set and possibly a Resistance set to a certain element (depending on the mobs you'll be tanking).

For instance, if you can get your overall Fire Resistance to over 300, you'll dramatically increase your resistance rate, and the amount of damage Tiamat does to you while in the air casting Firagas will be laughable. You'll want to get at least 150 Fire resistance, along with Barfira from a WHM and Fire Carol from a BRD to hit 300+ if you're going for a resistance build.

Alternatively, you could stack as much Magic Defense Bonus items and -Magic Damage% with a bit of Fire Resistance in other slots and reduce the amount of damage taken in that manner.

There's a thread over on KI that goes into much greater detail than I'm going to here. http://ffxi.killvoid.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=147809



Can you please give us a better idea of what equipment to wear for PLD/NIN, outside of Haste%? I understand why focusing on +Enmity would be important, but are there any specific "must-have" pieces or any situational gear that screams PLD/NIN?


I tried to avoid mentioning specific gear other than Haste% since my hope was anyone reading this would pick up the basics regarding gear choices from this F.A.Q. and then apply those principles when putting together a PLD/NIN build for themselves. I didn't want people to have the mistaken belief they can't successfully tank as PLD/NIN unless they have certain items, which is another reason I neglected to mention specific pieces.

For a more comprehensive list of items which can be worked into a PLD/NIN tanking build, I recommend checking out NCCoda's Extensive PLD Gear and Food Guide, specifically the sections entitled "PLD Equipment - Endgame Tanking," "PLD Equipment - Magic Resistance & Haste Gear," and "PLD Equipment - Misc Categories."

However, I'll make a short list of some non-Haste items that are worth incorporating into your build if they're available to you.

Additional recommended items for PLD/NIN
  • Ethereal Earring (Earring) - HP+15, Attack+5, Evasion+5, Converts 3% of Damage taken to MP (Great item every PLD should strive to obtain)
  • Loquacious Earring (Earring) - MP+30, Enhances Fast Cast Effect (Reduces Spellcasting time by 2%, and Spell recast time by 1%)
  • Valor Surcoat (Body) - DEF:55, HP+23, DEX+3, Enmity+4, Enhances Cover Ability (Converts 20% of damage taken while Cover is active to MP)
  • Hydra Haubert (Body) - DEF: 45, HP-20, MP+20, ACC+10, Enmity+9 (rare drop from Dynamis-Tavnazia that boosts +Enmity greatly)
  • Aegishjalmr (Head) - DEF: 23, HP+25, MND-7, CHR-7, Enmity+7 (Great boost to +Enmity and worth using over Walahra Turban if you already have a solid Haste% build)
  • Bahamut's Mask (Head) - DEF: 32. Enhances Dragon Killer Effect, Enmity+8 (Aegishjalmr+1)
  • Boxer's Mantle (Back) - Guard Skill+10, Evasion Skill+10, Shield Skill+10, Parrying Skill+10 (Great swap item for +Shield if you're not using a High Breath Mantle)
  • Gigant Mantle (Back) - DEF:4, HP+80 (Can be macroed in and out along with other +HP gears as a way to generate additional hate when you're not taking much damage)
  • Flawless Ribbon (Head)- DEF:18, Light Resistance+30, Dark Resistance+30, Enhances Killer Effects, Increases Resistance to All Status Ailments (underrated piece that has its uses, but only worth getting if you have Ancient Beastcoins to burn)
  • Macahuitl+1 (Sword) - DMG:37, Delay: 227, ACC-4, ATK+11, Enmity+4 (best source of Enmity in this slot and relatively cheap to boot)
  • Wivre Shield/Wivre Shield+1 (Shield) - DEF:12/13, Enmity+5/6 (this size 3 shield which adds a bit more +Enmity to your build than Koenig was added in the 8-27-07 update)



Currently, I can only manage to scrape together a total of 10% Haste from gear, and my linkshell sometimes has a low BRD turnout on days we do events, which means I'm not going to be anywhere close to 50% Haste a lot of the time. Is casting Flash every 22 seconds (or close to it) the only way a PLD/NIN can generate hate?


Of course not. Whether you sub /NIN, /WAR, or even /DRG, Flash is only one of many hate tools. While casting Flash as often as possible is very important when building hate, it's not the only thing that makes PLD/NIN work.

Ignoring the other hate tools PLD has such as Cures and Job Abilities like Sentinel and Rampart or prioritizing a small amount of Haste% gear over a large amount of +Enmity isn't doing anybody any favors, and will severely limit your overall potential as a tank.

Also, there are other hate tools I forgot to mention that are specific to /NIN. Spells like Kurayami: Ichi (Blind) and Dokumori: Ichi (Poison) generate a small amount of hate, even if resisted. They can be used to conserve MP and as an additional source of hate when waiting on Job Ability and spell recast timers, and especially come in handy when kiting.

If you're lucky enough to have Homam Manopolas, Homam Cosciales, and a Swift Belt, you'd have a total of 10% Haste as well as an extra 1.5% shaved off your timers thanks to the Fast Cast from Homam Cosciales. You'd be making a mistake to go with Walahra Turban full time if you had access to either Aegisjhalmr or Bahamut's Mask. Giving up Enmity+7/8 for a couple extra seconds shaved off your spell recasts isn't worth it.

With that being said, acquiring plenty of Haste% gear and getting those recasts on Flash and Utsusemi as low as possible is very important if you want to make the most out of this combo. Just don't make the mistake it's the only thing to focus on.



How do you decide where to draw the line between enmity and haste? You mentioned it might be better to wear Bahamut's Mask instead of Walahra Turban. That was one of my exact questions, since I have a Bahamut's Mask. I'm also picking Swift belt over my Trance belt usually, and Homam Cosciales over my Valor Breeches. What do you think about the Capricorn Staff over the Machahuitl+1/Koenig Shield? Seems like a similar argument to W. Turban vs. B. Mask... lots of enmity lost for a bit of Haste%... and even worse, the ability to shield block. Without it, though, I'm left with Homam hands/legs (no feet yet) and a Swift Belt for 10% haste (+ a Loquacious Earring).


Macro in Walahra Turban for Utsusemi recasts, and replace it with Bahamut's Mask the rest of the time if an extra 5% Haste will make it easier for you to keep up Utsusemi.

If blinking your character causes problems for your WHMs, who cares? They shouldn't have to be curing you that much anyways. :D

As far as Capricorn Staff goes, I actually prefer using it over Machahuitl+1/Koenig Shield if I'm not already at the Haste% cap between buffs and gear. Blasphemy, right? To be honest, I'd only macro it in for Utsusemi if it didn't cause TP loss (Chivalry), but since it does, I leave it equipped full time. Keeping up Utsusemi is more important to me than boosting my +Enmity to the point where I'm taking damage simply because my Utsusemi recast isn't ready.

In the end, you need to find a balance between Haste% and +Enmity that works for you. Everyone has slightly different tanking styles and everyone is working with co-tanks and mages of varying skill/experience levels. There is no correct answer, as there's too many factors to consider.



Any suggestions on a hate build routine for initial hate when I can't rely on a SATA partner? This is where I seem to struggle with PLD/NIN. Longer fights like Ouryu or Bahamut 2 are outstanding and enable me to cling to the hate ceiling but the initial hate build gives me fits. Right now I'm trying to get in an initial Flash, wait 10 seconds or so, then pop Sentinel (fully merited guardian)and Flash/Shield Bash while the enmity boost from Sentinel is still in effect. My alliance usually stays full HP at all times through most all fights, so there isn't a lot to cure to build hate on. My co-tank is an excellent NIN/DRK who spams spells and stays at the hate ceiling constantly and takes almost no damage.


As far as trying to get a jump start on hate, I'd equip enough Haste% to get Flash recast around 22-25 seconds. Get on the mob hate list with something other than Flash, immediately Sentinel, Flash, swap in full Enmity+, Shield Bash, Rampart, and cast a 2nd Flash before Sentinel wears off. You'll definitely be at top of the hate list after all that. However, I wouldn't stress this as being important. If your alliance is normally at full HP, it sounds like you and your NIN/DRK co-tank are getting the job done.

If the NIN/DRK has hate on him nearly full time, and this is the reason you're wanting to get a better jump on initial hate, let your mages know to concentrate on -na spells, Barspells, and Erase until you're at 35% MP or less. You really should be handling the majority of the NIN/DRK's healing needs, as it creates stronger overall hate for both of you, as well as makes it easier to share hate. Cover can also be used whenever the NIN/DRK needs a breather or is riding recast timers.

Oh, and Bahamut 2 is a long fight? If you've got the people and jobs available to pull if off (and you probably do), I strongly suggest TP burning it.



I just leveled my NIN sub to 37, and learned Utsusemi: Ni. Are there any tricks to blink tanking you could pass along? Also, are there any differences to keep in mind when blink tanking as a /NIN instead of a NIN?

Good questions.

One of the first things I suggest is filtering any information you can live without. This makes it easier to read the log and keep track of how many shadows you have left.

Secondly, I recommend changing the default font colors for "Actions you Evade". To do this, go to Config > Font Colors > Actions you Evade. I make this a bright red color by sliding Red all the way to the right, and Blue and Green all the way to the left. In this way, any time you evade or parry an attack, it will show up bright red in the log, making it very easy to count shadows, regardless of how many or few filters are actually turned on.

Once you've got your filters and chat colors set in this way, it will be much easier to keep track of how many shadows you have up at any given time.

If you've done some tanking as NIN past 37, you're probably familiar with most of the basic concepts. If you aren't, you might want to read this- Jahava's Guide to Blink Tanking and Utsusemi.

Note: Everything that follows here assumes you understand the information found in Jahava's guide. Check it out if you're unsure.

One of the biggest differences between NIN and /NIN tanking is Utsusemi: Ni. It only gives 3 shadows instead of 4 if you're /NIN. What does that mean for PLD/NIN? There's no benefit to Utsusemi: Ni other than the much shorter casting time.

Typically, most NIN/WARs or NIN/DRKs will cast Utsusemi: Ni at the beginning of a battle and only cast Utsusemi: Ichi if/when their shadows are about to fall and their Utsusemi: Ni recast timers aren't ready.

As PLD/NIN or RDM/NIN, I cast Utsusemi: Ichi at the start of a battle, cast Utsusemi: Ichi when my first or second shadow is gone (depending on if the mob double attacks or not) and only cast Ni when my Ichi recast timers aren't ready.

If I'm keeping hate high and so is my co-tank, I can often tank Utsusemi: Ichi> Utsusemi: Ichi> Utsusemi: Ni and let hate bounce back to my co-tank before that last Ni shadow is gone.

There's one big benefit to tanking Utsusemi: Ichi> Utsusemi: Ichi whenever possible that might not be immediately apparent- it's a lot easier to put up Utsusemi: Ni after an AOE or multi-hit attack that strips all remaining shadows.





Edited, May 12th 2008 12:48am by ScarShiva
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#2 Jun 20 2007 at 5:16 PM Rating: Good
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I have never tried PLD/NIN. Ever. But all i'v ever had the pleasure of tanking was sky gods. I have turben, would need to work on swift belt. It's going to be a pain in the ass getting all that gear ; ;

I'v been looking for a excuse to get dusk gloves for a long time though... if only just for my DD pld or pld/rdm set up.

Anyhow, nice guide Mr Scar. Please can you add a idea of what equipment to wear for PLD/NIN (outside of haste) I'm guessing stuff like mach and koenig shield would figure in these kind of set ups.
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#3 Jun 20 2007 at 5:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well done Scar. Looks fantastic. And you set it up so people who don't know how to go about Pld/Nin can easily understand it.
#4 Jun 20 2007 at 8:29 PM Rating: Decent
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It's a great guide, but it I had one complaint,
Quote:
gears
#5 Jun 20 2007 at 10:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Excellent guide Scar, thank you very much for all the work.
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#6 Jun 20 2007 at 11:07 PM Rating: Default
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Nice guide. I do have a comment though.
Quote:
If you can hit that 50% Haste cap between gear and buffs, your recast on Flash will be 22 seconds. Casting Flash this often (or close to it) is how PLD can generate incredible amounts of hate even without Provoke

You make it sound like Flash on a 22-second timer is what lets a PLD/NIN generate and hold hate. Casting Flash 1.5 times more often is nice, but it hardly creates "incredible" amounts of hate relative to what a PLD normally generates, especially a PLD/WAR. A short recast on Flash is a side-effect of a /NIN's haste build, not the reason for it.

I point this out because a PLD who thinks that Flash is the secret to holding hate on /NIN is going to perform poorly.
#7 Jun 21 2007 at 1:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nice guide :)

Quote:
You make it sound like Flash on a 22-second timer is what lets a PLD/NIN generate and hold hate. Casting Flash 1.5 times more often is nice, but it hardly creates "incredible" amounts of hate relative to what a PLD normally generates, especially a PLD/WAR. A short recast on Flash is a side-effect of a /NIN's haste build, not the reason for it.

I point this out because a PLD who thinks that Flash is the secret to holding hate on /NIN is going to perform poorly.


I also noticed that Scar forgot to mention the main reason why /NIN is often better than /WAR. On top of casting Flash every 22-25 seconds, using cures and JAs, the main advantadge of /NIN comes from being able to blink away high amounts of damage, thus not losing as much hate as /WAR does. If it weren't for this hate loss, a PLD/WAR could generate more hate over time, gearing themselves up for haste and using the same tools as a PLD/NIN on top of Provoke. But the amount of hate generated by Flash alone is better than the one generated by Flash + Provoke + getting hit.








Edited, Jun 21st 2007 5:36pm by jillia
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#8 Jun 21 2007 at 2:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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jillia wrote:
Nice guide :)


Thanks.

jillia wrote:
sallemand wrote:
You make it sound like Flash on a 22-second timer is what lets a PLD/NIN generate and hold hate. Casting Flash 1.5 times more often is nice, but it hardly creates "incredible" amounts of hate relative to what a PLD normally generates, especially a PLD/WAR. A short recast on Flash is a side-effect of a /NIN's haste build, not the reason for it.

I point this out because a PLD who thinks that Flash is the secret to holding hate on /NIN is going to perform poorly.


I agree I hammered home the importance of Haste% as hard as I could to the point of making it sound too good to be true. It was intentional.

However, I added a couple questions and answers that hopefully clear up any confusion, and also points people in the right direction when it comes to gear questions.

jillia wrote:
I also noticed that Scar forgot to mention the main reason why /NIN is superior to /WAR. On top of casting Flash every 22-25 seconds, using cures and JAs, the superiority of /NIN comes from being able to blink away high amounts of damage, thus not losing as much hate as /WAR does. If it weren't for this hate loss, a PLD/WAR could generate more hate over time, gearing themselves up for haste and using the same tools as a PLD/NIN on top of Provoke. But the amount of hate generated by Flash alone is better than the one generated by Flash + Provoke + getting hit.


Sure about that? :D

ScarShiva wrote:
If they're able to keep hate without resorting to /WAR and they're able to keep Utsusemi up fairly often, /NIN can reduce a lot more physical damage than /WAR, and Utsusemi can also absorb single target enfeebles and spells that could potentially 1-shot a /WAR.


I also pointed out situations where PLD/NIN doesn't work as well.

ScarShiva wrote:
No. PLD/NIN works well on monsters that don't use a lot of AOE shadow stripping TP moves or spells, and works best with a co-tank to share hate (although this part is true for /WAR as well).


You're right, though. I didn't spell out exactly what hate bleed is and exactly how it works. Hopefully, anyone reading this F.A.Q. as I first posted it would make 2 assumptions-

1. Taking a lot of damage as PLD/NIN negates the advantages of the combo

and

2. It's possible to generate enough hate without /WAR to take advantage of the additional damage reduction /NIN can provide.

One of the reasons I avoided mentioning hate bleed was because for the very reasons you pointed out. I didn't want to make the claim that /NIN is "superior" to /WAR. Just because /NIN can often a better choice, it isn't always. Both combos can be used effectively, and both combos can generate plenty of hate.

Sometimes, PLD/RDM or PLD/WHM can be "superior" to either combo. In the end, subjobs are situational. It's nice to know PLD can stand on its own, and successfully use many different subjobs.

I've went to Sky as PLD/DRK and had a lot of fun alternating both Flash and Stun. I guarantee my overall hate potential is much higher as PLD/DRK than it is as PLD/NIN, even though I definitely take a lot more damage. Souleater + Vorpal Blade alone makes sure of that.







Edited, Jun 21st 2007 12:44pm by ScarShiva
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#9 Jun 21 2007 at 3:30 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
jillia wrote:
I also noticed that Scar forgot to mention the main reason why /NIN is superior to /WAR. On top of casting Flash every 22-25 seconds, using cures and JAs, the superiority of /NIN comes from being able to blink away high amounts of damage, thus not losing as much hate as /WAR does. If it weren't for this hate loss, a PLD/WAR could generate more hate over time, gearing themselves up for haste and using the same tools as a PLD/NIN on top of Provoke. But the amount of hate generated by Flash alone is better than the one generated by Flash + Provoke + getting hit.


Sure about that? :D


Yea ._. I did a little test tanking sky gods, sporting an Aegis as /WAR and I had an easier time tanking them as /NIN and not getting hit at all. Maybe I'm just too used to /NIN @_@; Granted, when I was /WAR everyone and their dog was SATAWSing the other tank, but meh, I still find /NIN to be better for almost all NMs (leaving aside zerged fights like this Jailer of Hope for example, which died in under a minute, in which case /WAR was the subjob choice for my PLD friend who knew he'd need all the spiked hate in the world).

If I know that a fight is going to be short (most Jailers) and that someone is going to do an insane amount of damage per nuke (JoFort) or WS, then I use /WAR. If I know that the fight will take long enough for me to build up enough hate and that nobody is going to chuck away 20% of the mob's health with one move, then I sub /NIN.

And if I'm cotanking with my boyfriend's NIN/DRK then I just /NIN and the LS can go all out :) Gotta love good cotanks.




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#10 Jun 21 2007 at 6:27 AM Rating: Good
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AWSOME WORK!!!! Thank you for taking my request seriously. I very much apperciate this fine guide you have created that will help Now and futuer Plds!


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#11 Jun 21 2007 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
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If you're lucky enough to have Homam Manopolas, Homam Cosciales, and Homam Gambieras, along with a Swift Belt, you'd have a total of 12% Haste. You'd be making a mistake to go with Walahra Turban full time if you had access to either Aegisjhalmr or Bahamut's Mask. Giving up Enmity+7/8 for a couple extra seconds shaved off your spell recasts isn't worth it.


Just being pedantic but : Homam hands/legs/feet are all +3%, swift belt is +4% for 13% haste, not 12%. That also doesn't take into account the fast cast on the homam pants which adds another 1.5-2.5% depending on who you ask. Effectivly you can cap out your 15% recast with just the 3 pieces of homam and swift belt.
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#12 Jun 21 2007 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Eh, I'll add another comment while I'm here.
Quote:
If you have a BRD for double March and a WHM or RDM for Haste, you're looking at a total of 35% Haste. That means you'll only need to wear 15% worth of Haste from gear to cap your recast timers at 50%.

I'd personally rather have March and Ballad than March x2. Keeping shadows up really shouldn't be an issue with a co-tank, debuffs, or stunners, and the extra mp for cures will generate a fair bit more hate than Flash slightly more often. Some PLD/NINs will be past the 15% mark with gear anyway, and most NIN/DRK will be as well.

Haste is fantastic, but only insofar as it lets you keep shadows up. After that, I'd much rather have more mp.

And, yeah, I totally recognize that this is meant to be a beginner's guide, and it does that really nicely. I do think, though, that since haste is in many ways the core of most modern HNM straight-tanking styles, it's worth looking at it in a slightly more nuanced way.
#13 Jun 21 2007 at 10:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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ttalis wrote:
Just being pedantic but : Homam hands/legs/feet are all +3%, swift belt is +4% for 13% haste, not 12%. That also doesn't take into account the fast cast on the homam pants which adds another 1.5-2.5% depending on who you ask. Effectivly you can cap out your 15% recast with just the 3 pieces of homam and swift belt.


You're absolutely right. I threw together that question and answer in a little over a minute and never bothered to double check my figures.

I changed that response somewhat to both fix the math and get across what I was trying to say a bit better.

sallemand wrote:
Eh, I'll add another comment while I'm here.
ScarShiva wrote:
If you have a BRD for double March and a WHM or RDM for Haste, you're looking at a total of 35% Haste. That means you'll only need to wear 15% worth of Haste from gear to cap your recast timers at 50%.

I'd personally rather have March and Ballad than March x2. Keeping shadows up really shouldn't be an issue with a co-tank, debuffs, or stunners, and the extra mp for cures will generate a fair bit more hate than Flash slightly more often. Some PLD/NINs will be past the 15% mark with gear anyway, and most NIN/DRK will be as well.


I was pretty sure I covered that here-

ScarShiva wrote:
Remember, when it comes to Haste%, more is better. A single BRD in the tank party can sing something other than March X 2 (like Ballad II or Foe Sirvente) if you and your co-tanks have a strong enough Haste% build.


sallemand wrote:
Haste is fantastic, but only insofar as it lets you keep shadows up. After that, I'd much rather have more mp.


Honestly, I'd want to be at capped timers and have Ballad too if at all possible. :D

I guess I'm spoiled in that I often have two BRDs in the party when I go PLD/NIN, NIN/DRK, or RDM/NIN.

However, barring 2 BRDs in the tank party, getting as much Haste% from gear is important as it allows that much more flexibility in how you can approach a specific fight and what kinds of songs a BRD is able to sing.

I completely agree that March + Ballad is often a better choice once you have a pretty solid build, but when Walahra Turban is your only Haste% gear, you're most likely better off with the March X 2.

sallemand wrote:
And, yeah, I totally recognize that this is meant to be a beginner's guide, and it does that really nicely. I do think, though, that since haste is in many ways the core of most modern HNM straight-tanking styles, it's worth looking at it in a slightly more nuanced way.


I think that last question and answer I added to the F.A.Q. clears up the issues you have surrounding Haste%. I basically spell it out that there's tradeoffs to consider when you're making decisions between Haste% and Enmity+. I made sure to point out focusing on Haste and Flash to the exclusion of everything else is a mistake.







Edited, Jun 21st 2007 8:54pm by ScarShiva
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#14 Jun 21 2007 at 11:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Edit- Double

Edited, Jun 21st 2007 9:16pm by ScarShiva
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#15 Jun 21 2007 at 11:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Triple...

Edited, Jun 21st 2007 9:16pm by ScarShiva
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#16 Jun 21 2007 at 11:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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jillia wrote:
Quote:
jillia wrote:
I also noticed that Scar forgot to mention the main reason why /NIN is superior to /WAR. On top of casting Flash every 22-25 seconds, using cures and JAs, the superiority of /NIN comes from being able to blink away high amounts of damage, thus not losing as much hate as /WAR does. If it weren't for this hate loss, a PLD/WAR could generate more hate over time, gearing themselves up for haste and using the same tools as a PLD/NIN on top of Provoke. But the amount of hate generated by Flash alone is better than the one generated by Flash + Provoke + getting hit.


Sure about that? :D


Yea ._. I did a little test tanking sky gods, sporting an Aegis as /WAR and I had an easier time tanking them as /NIN and not getting hit at all. Maybe I'm just too used to /NIN @_@; Granted, when I was /WAR everyone and their dog was SATAWSing the other tank, but meh, I still find /NIN to be better for almost all NMs (leaving aside zerged fights like this Jailer of Hope for example, which died in under a minute, in which case /WAR was the subjob choice for my PLD friend who knew he'd need all the spiked hate in the world).

If I know that a fight is going to be short (most Jailers) and that someone is going to do an insane amount of damage per nuke (JoFort) or WS, then I use /WAR. If I know that the fight will take long enough for me to build up enough hate and that nobody is going to chuck away 20% of the mob's health with one move, then I sub /NIN.

And if I'm cotanking with my boyfriend's NIN/DRK then I just /NIN and the LS can go all out :) Gotta love good cotanks.


I agree with you completely. PLD/NIN is often the better choice if you have the gear and support for it.

When I asked, "Sure about that?", I meant I did mention the advantages of /NIN, in that it can often reduce damage taken significantly.

There's reasons I didn't go any further than that, though, and start talking about hate bleed and how /NIN helps reduce that, and it's mainly because I wanted to avoid saying certain combos are better than others.

The second I say something like /NIN is "superior" to /WAR, there's going to be some hardheaded PLD/WARs who throw up the blinders and dismiss this F.A.Q. completely.

There's a lot of tanks who take a lot of pride in their abilities, and saying they're inferior because they don't sub /NIN isn't going to exactly appeal to them.





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#17 Jun 21 2007 at 1:40 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The second I say something like /NIN is "superior" to /WAR, there's going to be some hardheaded PLD/WARs who throw up the blinders and dismiss this F.A.Q. completely.

There's a lot of tanks who take a lot of pride in their abilities, and saying they're inferior because they don't sub /NIN isn't going to exactly appeal to them.


My bad, didn't think I'd sound so harsh ^^; Edited~

By the way, will you include a comprehensive gear guide and some guidepoints about how to play /NIN? I often get asked about it in game, so it'd be nice if I could point them to a post instead of repeating myself over and over^^; I (and other PLDs in the boards) could help you out with that in case you needed it, just ask us.

And, if you do it, sticky it so new PLDs learn to love a very nice subjob for PLD.
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#18 Jun 22 2007 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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early *bump*
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http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?127304 <------------Tank set up
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#19 Jun 23 2007 at 5:17 AM Rating: Good
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#20 Jun 23 2007 at 5:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Somebody PM'd me some questions and I answered them at the tail end of the F.A.Q.

If anybody else has any questions, feel free to PM me or ask me in the thread, and I'll do my best to answer them.

jillia wrote:
By the way, will you include a comprehensive gear guide and some guidepoints about how to play /NIN? I often get asked about it in game, so it'd be nice if I could point them to a post instead of repeating myself over and over^^; I (and other PLDs in the boards) could help you out with that in case you needed it, just ask us.

And, if you do it, sticky it so new PLDs learn to love a very nice subjob for PLD.


I can probably add a couple questions and answers addressing how to work Utsusemi recasts. There's a few differences between NIN and /NIN, so I'll choose to focus on that for the most part once I make the time for it.

As far as a comprehensive gear guide, it's pretty much covered IMO. I mentioned every significant piece of Haste% gear as well as some other recommendations. More importantly, I linked to NCCoda's Equipment Guide, and everything is in there. Again, I wanted to avoid mentioning specific gear because I don't want people to feel they can't use this combo with great success unless they have 3/5 Homam, Aegisjhalmr/Bahamut's Mask, etc.

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#21 Jun 23 2007 at 8:53 PM Rating: Good
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Good guide... but: (saw that coming^^)
I think Walmart turban/sword and board are a far stronger combination than Carpicorn/B.Mask|Aegischallerthanger. You give up far too much for 0 or 1 (in reference of the BMask) enmity. You lose shield bash, shield blocks and your ability to hold your TP. Capricorn is really only useful in situations where you have to stack all your Haste, including Walmart. I strongly believe it should never be used as a surrogate to replace Walmart and sacrifice Shield Mastery.

I'm also starting to believe that Full Enmity swap prior to JAs is the real use for Bmask. That and possibly a macro, for when you don't have hate, to macro in full enmity for your Cures, since Haste doesn't drastically benefit them as much.
Spam tanks are currently insanely strong. RDM/NIN and NIN/DRK have cheap (6-9mp) spells along with Cures or Stun to use as hate tools. Really your alliance should be built with that in mind, double marches creates an insane hate capability for spam tanks. That leaves us PLDs sitting with only our Flash and of course Utsu timers greatly reduced. Outside of Gjesushorn, or double BRD tank party's, we're more of a safety tank for the main tank, at least until mid/late fights.
Really, PLDs need a one or two cheap MP spells with a fixed hate effect.
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#22 Jun 24 2007 at 1:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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ashael wrote:
Good guide... but: (saw that coming^^)
I think Walmart turban/sword and board are a far stronger combination than Carpicorn/B.Mask|Aegischallerthanger. You give up far too much for 0 or 1 (in reference of the BMask) enmity. You lose shield bash, shield blocks and your ability to hold your TP. Capricorn is really only useful in situations where you have to stack all your Haste, including Walmart. I strongly believe it should never be used as a surrogate to replace Walmart and sacrifice Shield Mastery.


Whenever I use Capricorn, I'm wearing full Haste% for Utsusemi and Flash. I don't swap out Capricorn Staff to prevent any TP loss, but I do swap in more +Enmity for Cures and Job Abilities like Sentinel and Rampart. These days, I normally go with Macahuitl+1/Koenig Shield simply because I have double March the majority of the time, and I hit the Haste% cap from my other slots.

As far as Shield Mastery goes, I was tanking successfully as PLD/NIN with Capricorn Staff before they added that update that made Shield Blocks prevent interruption. I consider Shield Mastery a crutch when people start depending on it to make up for their inefficiencies. It's a great bonus, and certainly makes us much stronger soloers and tanks, but it shouldn't be needed to recast Utsusemi.

In other words, if the only reason you're able to recast Utsusemi: Ichi is Shield Mastery, you've got lots of room for improvement.

Don't get me wrong, though. I agree with what you're saying. If you're only looking to add 5% Haste, Walahra Turban is the way to do it. It gives you a lot more flexibility as far as equipment swaps go (no TP change), access to Shield Bash without having to swap out weapons, and, of course, Shield Mastery.

Sometimes, you might want to add as close to 25% Haste from gear as possible, though, and Capricorn Staff is often overlooked even though it's a great boost to getting to that level of Haste%.

ashael wrote:
I'm also starting to believe that Full Enmity swap prior to JAs is the real use for Bmask. That and possibly a macro, for when you don't have hate, to macro in full enmity for your Cures, since Haste doesn't drastically benefit them as much.


I already do this with +Enmity gear. Flash and Utsusemi I wear as much Haste% as needed to cap out timers, and go with +Enmity everywhere else. Then, I macro out the Haste% for additional +Enmity for Cures and Job Abilities.

ashael wrote:
Spam tanks are currently insanely strong. RDM/NIN and NIN/DRK have cheap (6-9mp) spells along with Cures or Stun to use as hate tools. Really your alliance should be built with that in mind, double marches creates an insane hate capability for spam tanks. That leaves us PLDs sitting with only our Flash and of course Utsu timers greatly reduced. Outside of Gjesushorn, or double BRD tank party's, we're more of a safety tank for the main tank, at least until mid/late fights.
Really, PLDs need a one or two cheap MP spells with a fixed hate effect.


Co-tanking with a well played NIN/DRK is a workout. However, it's possible to build enough hate as PLD/NIN to be doing your share of the tanking, especially if you plan ahead and make the most of Sentinel.

I've been tanking as RDM/NIN a lot lately, and it takes quite a bit of time to build up hate compared to NIN/DRK or PLD/NIN. However, it's hard to beat once it gets going.

On the other side of the fence, with a bit of coordination, it's very easy to work well with a PLD/NIN co-tank. As RDM/NIN, Sentinel+ Convert+ Cure IV from both myself and the PLD/NIN is a lot of hate for the tank party. As NIN/DRK, swapping in Katanas and firing off Souleater creates insane hate for both myself and the PLD/NIN if he handles the majority of the curing, especially if Sentinel is used beforehand. Cover can make Souleater usage very safe as well.

Once co-tanks quit trying to compete with each other and concentrate on working together instead, incredible things are possible.







Edited, Jun 24th 2007 1:32pm by ScarShiva
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#23 Jun 24 2007 at 8:58 AM Rating: Good
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I don't totally agree that cotanks should not be competing. Tanks should be always doing something, always pressing their hate higher. If one tank is having to stop to allow his cotank to catch up, then that's also allowing the BLMs and the RNGs to catch up.
You should definetly be working together, aiding each other as well you can. But it should more be a brotherly rivalry, seeing how high you can set the bar and expecting your cotank to do the same. With the exception of popping invincinble 2 seconds into the fight, hate whoring is the way to go, it isn't a bad thing.
I too have been playing RDM/NIN occassionaly, and it makes me strongly desire Convert when I go back to playing PLD/NIN;p. Nothing like wasting all your MP for hate, then regenning all your MP AND getting 2-3 Cure IVs in.
*EDIT*
WRT to my Shield Mastery comment, I'm not saying you need Shield Mastery, nor should you ever count on a percentage ability to allow you to recast shadows. I am saying you should always maximize your chances. If a situation comes where you have to cast Ichi lagged, you shield provides a get out of jail free card.

Edited, Jun 24th 2007 1:03pm by ashael
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#24 Jun 24 2007 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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the only time a co-tank should not compete for hate is during a SATA setup. There's nothing worse than turning the mob during a SATA. ive seen all sorts of disasters from the other tank moving and TA missing and the sam dieing, to just things going fubar TP getting wasted and DRKs dieing (not that it doesnt happen all the time anyways)
#25 Jun 24 2007 at 2:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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ashael wrote:
I don't totally agree that cotanks should not be competing. Tanks should be always doing something, always pressing their hate higher. If one tank is having to stop to allow his cotank to catch up, then that's also allowing the BLMs and the RNGs to catch up.


I agree with what you're saying, and I feel both co-tanks should be doing everything they can to keep hate higher than the rest of the alliance. I can definitely see where my comments could have been taken the wrong way though.

When I said working together, I gave 2 examples of what I meant. A PLD/NIN can take the opportunity to build some hate by Sentinel + Flash + Curing either a RDM/NIN who just Converted or a NIN/DRK using Souleater, using Cover to help out as well.

With that being said, sometimes it's just smart to hold back a few seconds if it results in a co-tank with Utsusemi up getting "smacked" instead of you with Utsusemi down getting smacked. If your co-tank is competing with you hate-wise, holding back for just a few seconds makes it easier to bounce hate for those kind of reasons.

ashael wrote:
You should definetly be working together, aiding each other as well you can. But it should more be a brotherly rivalry, seeing how high you can set the bar and expecting your cotank to do the same. With the exception of popping invincinble 2 seconds into the fight, hate whoring is the way to go, it isn't a bad thing.


It's only a bad thing if your WHMs are curing you instead of you or your co-tank, but I definitely agree. Actually coordinating Job Abilities to increase both tank's levels of hate is more of what I was referring to when I mentioned working together.

ashael wrote:
I too have been playing RDM/NIN occassionaly, and it makes me strongly desire Convert when I go back to playing PLD/NIN;p. Nothing like wasting all your MP for hate, then regenning all your MP AND getting 2-3 Cure IVs in.


Chivalry is nice, but doesn't even come close to Convert. I miss Stun from /DRK whenever I'm not on NIN main as well.

ashael wrote:
*EDIT*
WRT to my Shield Mastery comment, I'm not saying you need Shield Mastery, nor should you ever count on a percentage ability to allow you to recast shadows. I am saying you should always maximize your chances. If a situation comes where you have to cast Ichi lagged, you shield provides a get out of jail free card.


I don't think you should always maximize your chances to cast Utsusemi: Ichi without being interrupted by always wearing a Shield. Every situation is different.

Depending on what you have to work with support wise (shorthanded fights don't always include a BRD right away), that additional Haste% from Capricorn Staff might well serve you better at times.



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#26 Jun 24 2007 at 2:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou you had perfect timing with this post. My linkshell was just discussing how soon we shall be leaving sky, and none of our PLD's are prepped to try /nin yet. This gives me an excellent 'compass' as to which direction I should take my PLD/NIN build.
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#27 Jun 26 2007 at 12:08 AM Rating: Good
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Again, I wanted to avoid mentioning specific gear because I don't want people to feel they can't use this combo with great success unless they have 3/5 Homam, Aegisjhalmr/Bahamut's Mask, etc.


That's how I felt before this post ; ;

#28 Jun 28 2007 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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bump.... can someone sticky this?
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#29 Jun 28 2007 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent
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bump.... can someone sticky this?


Added to the forum index sticky.
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#30 Jun 28 2007 at 11:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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On the cotanks thing, tanks are going to compete for hate, but really they shouldn't. Sure you COULD be a total ass and spike your hate so high that nothing can take it off you. Thats when tiamat lands, rips through your shadows and two shots you, instead of bouncing between tanks as shadows are lost.


That being said, if you're lagging behind on hate, your cotank shouldn't really slack off so much as you should step up your game. But things like letting your cotank cure you when you're getting hit in the air from a wyrm(and vice versa) instead of just spamming cure 4 on yourself endlessly and hogging all the hate is just not good for anyone really.


On the main topic, first kudos to the guide.


One thing I'd recommend looking at as well, for certain fights is using templar mace and possibly hospitaler earring(even if only macrod in) for cures. This would only apply to fights where you WILL be doing a healthy amount of curing. Wyrms are the biggest example of this since they'll spend half the fight spitting out decent damage magic attacks as well as middle to high damage AoEs(at least tiamat will since she wings or blasts every time she flies pretty much). Cerb can also deal enough damage that you'll cure enough to make that 15% cure worth it(cerb can really rape timers when he feels like it), but khim I've found doesn't usually spit out enough damage to be constantly curing enough and I stick to mac+1 on him.

Basically the idea is that if you're curing alot, then that 10% cure potency is a very very nice thing to have since it makes your cures more efficient MP wise as well as hate wise. If you're getting TP at a fast enough rate you can spam moonlight as well(I think moonlight is the second tier one).

Regardless I always macro in hospitaler in over ethereal for cures, and on mobs that will actually let me stretch my MP by curing I use templar full time as well.


On the general gear idea, as I still don't have a piece of homam, my original gear set for pld/nin leaned instead towards enmity moreso over haste(seriously like the only piece of haste gear I used was dusk gloves and that was cause they were the only gloves I was using on pld period. switched in swift belt soon as well).

I'd say around 30 enmity is a healthy number to shoot for on pld/nin. You'll prolly have more before you get homam(I had like 40 when I was first using pld/nin). 13-15% haste(depending on if you're lucky enough to have a speed/velo belt) and as I said around 30 enmity ends up being the ideal.


Point is though that if you're still not looking good on the haste front, enmity isn't that bad of a way to go, your flashes and what not will gain more hate which will somewhat make up for not having them come quite as often if not so much the timers issue.
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#31 Jul 18 2007 at 5:57 AM Rating: Good
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bump. Please sticky!!
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#32 Jul 19 2007 at 8:53 AM Rating: Good
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oh yes.. im bumping
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#33 Jul 20 2007 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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Read it for first time. Nicely done. Was feeling a bit of trepidation jumping into end game tanking when my pld hits 75 since my LS is already highly developed and most of the tankers are already hardcore veterans, since tanking is about the only thing I do not have prior experience to draw experience upon...

We do have have couple of pld/war specialists in my ls, but only 1 or 2 pld/nin specialists (and they usually come on other jobs) so I might have found my tanking niche since I should more then have my 15% min haste by the time pld is ready.
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#34 Jul 24 2007 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
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>.>....<.<.......... bump
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#35 Aug 10 2007 at 3:03 AM Rating: Good
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#36 Aug 10 2007 at 7:45 AM Rating: Good
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Excellent.. Thanks Scar.
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#37 Aug 10 2007 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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You have some good information for beginning PLD/NIN. A few issues I have are the level of difficulty you put on obtaining certain gear, Homam and Swift Belt especially. A competant group can kill Omega without difficulty (and with how easy they made COP now, everyone should have access to Sea at least), and its not hard to farm a swift belt up. I wouldn't suggest not subbing nin to something that strips AOE (Fafnir/Nidhogg etc), if you are at the point where you can't get shadows back up after it wings, you need to sleep it and recover. Khimaira hits like a @#%^ing truck without shadows, same with Cerb and Tiamat. KB is the only HNM my shell subs war to, and thats because its a kite fight and you shouldn't be taking much damage anyways. KV we sub nin only to hold it, then we zerg it down. I would really rethink using Capricorn Staff, losing 7 enmity/better chivalry, access to spirits within/shield mastery, is not worth 5% haste. Macuahuitl +1/Koenig Shield is almost a third of the enmity you would be wearing, and that's only two slots.
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#38 Aug 10 2007 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
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/Sigh, if only this was around when Escape was still in business... then it wouldn't have been just Brill who knew how to tank Jormy... instead of the multiple 4 hour+ bloodbaths. Excellent guide, if only I wasn't on a break, then I'd go and fine tune that combo for myself.
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#39 Aug 11 2007 at 1:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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sharksie wrote:
You have some good information for beginning PLD/NIN. A few issues I have are the level of difficulty you put on obtaining certain gear, Homam and Swift Belt especially. A competant group can kill Omega without difficulty (and with how easy they made COP now, everyone should have access to Sea at least), and its not hard to farm a swift belt up.


LOL. I never said they were hard to obtain at all...

"Items that require a certain amount of CoP Missions complete as well as a significant time investment-"

Sure, it's easy to get a Swift Belt, but when there's 10 people who need one, you're down there for a while. I tanked over 13 Swift Belt NMs before I got to use my Fomor Codex. I tanked my butt off over a 2 day period before I got mine.

Just getting together the people for a Swift Belt run and farming your Codex often takes a "significant time investment".

As far as Proto-Omega, again, I never said it was hard. Even then, you need to put in the time to show up to multiple Limbus runs, and then hope and pray the body pieces you need drop once you're able to lot. I did a few runs where I saw nothing but Omega's Eyes X 2 drop.

Guess what, obtaining Homam requires a "significant time investment", regardless of whether it's easy or not. It can take 2-6 months to get a full set even if you have a big group and pop him once a week.

I certainly agree Proto-Omega is a joke of a fight to any but the most incompetent group, and that's why I never said Homam was hard to get. However, it does require a "significant time investment".

See where this discussion is going?


sharksie wrote:
I wouldn't suggest not subbing nin to something that strips AOE (Fafnir/Nidhogg etc), if you are at the point where you can't get shadows back up after it wings, you need to sleep it and recover.


Meh, I'd go to Fafnir/Nidhogg as /WAR just for a chance at claim with Provoke. If your shell can't support your tanks unless they're NIN or /NIN, you shouldn't be there in the first place IMO.

Good shells take down Fafnir rather quickly, and Nidhogg isn't much harder, although multiple wings can be a workout.

Granted, /NIN works just fine if you've got plenty of bots there to claim him and you just show up to tank.

sharksie wrote:
Khimaira hits like a @#%^ing truck without shadows, same with Cerb and Tiamat. KB is the only HNM my shell subs war to, and thats because its a kite fight and you shouldn't be taking much damage anyways. KV we sub nin only to hold it, then we zerg it down. I would really rethink using Capricorn Staff, losing 7 enmity/better chivalry, access to spirits within/shield mastery, is not worth 5% haste. Macuahuitl +1/Koenig Shield is almost a third of the enmity you would be wearing, and that's only two slots.


If I have Double March and Haste, I don't need Capricorn Staff to cap my timers and I don't use it.

However, in the instances I do use Capricorn Staff, I'm most likely fighting something shorthanded and lacking the proper support. Granted, that extra +7 Enmity is great for reaching the hate cap more quickly, until you get smacked with shadows down due to falling behind on timers. You keep better hate if you minimize the hate bleed as much as possible. In those kinds of situations, keeping up shadows is what's most important and Haste% is what makes it happen.

I'm willing to bet you didn't even really read what I said about Capricorn Staff though.


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#40sharksie, Posted: Aug 11 2007 at 9:26 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Uh, sorry, we don't bot. Flash is a better claiming tool then provoke, since it doesn't get eaten nearly as much. And I did read what you said about the staff, and its still stupid. You lose out on 100% (read that number again) spell interruption with a shield block (that means if you're casting ichi and you get hit but shield procs, it doesn't get interrupted). You lose out on spirits within, you lose out on 7 enmity (yes im saying that again because 7 enmity substantial). When you do get hit with a staff equiped, its virtually impossible to get ichi up if ni is down, unless if you dont have hate (which is probably why you dont notice a difference). Think of how much "hate bleed" you're doing when you're constantly getting hit for 300s, because you don't get any damage reduction from a shield. And the 7 enmity isnt for a hate cap, its so that you can stay above the melees, the mages, and the other tank (yes, co-tanking should be treated as a competition) every step of the way. i can guarantee you that i would outtank you, me wearing a sword/shield, and you wearing that staff. my shell takes down fafnir in 10 minutes, nid in a bit under 20. we have two tanks, and we never have hate issues. oh, and you can do a swift belt run with 6, we got 3/6 people a belt in 2 hours. Limbus is a 45 minute event 2 times a week, thats not a big time commitment either.
#41 Aug 11 2007 at 11:49 PM Rating: Decent
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I think you need to reread what he said again, carefully.

Also if you don't think obtaining Homam gear isn't a time investment, I think your crazy. 2 times a week you need to gather, you need to setup. Unless your focus is only around apollyon zones, my linkshell does a temenos and an apollyon once a week. So it would take 4 weeks to farm up a Omega set, then you need to be able to cast lots, then you need to hope that a piece you need drops in the 2-3 that can drop, if not it's back to doing the zones again. If your not into endgame, then this will likely not happen. If you join a shell, then you are likely a long time away from getting a piece. If you make a shell, then you are a long time in setting it up, getting the pops, and making sure everyone is on the same level for the events.

If that's not a time investment, I don't know what is.

#42 Aug 12 2007 at 2:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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sharksie wrote:
Uh, sorry, we don't bot. Flash is a better claiming tool then provoke, since it doesn't get eaten nearly as much.


Flash + Provoke> Flash for claiming.

Unless you're playing on a LAN with everyone in your LS, and you know exactly what everyone's running on their PC, you really can't say you don't bot. You have no way of knowing whether that guy next to you is really PS2 player or not, etc.

sharksie wrote:
And I did read what you said about the staff, and its still stupid. You lose out on 100% (read that number again) spell interruption with a shield block (that means if you're casting ichi and you get hit but shield procs, it doesn't get interrupted).


It's a good thing you're PLD/NIN and not NIN/DRK or you'd be in trouble, bro.

My reply- Learn to Utsusemi...

sharksie wrote:
You lose out on spirits within,


lolSpiritsWithin

sharksie wrote:
you lose out on 7 enmity (yes im saying that again because 7 enmity substantial). When you do get hit with a staff equiped, its virtually impossible to get ichi up if ni is down, unless if you dont have hate (which is probably why you dont notice a difference). Think of how much "hate bleed" you're doing when you're constantly getting hit for 300s, because you don't get any damage reduction from a shield.


Think of how much your co-tank sucks if you're getting constantly hit for 300s and you still have hate.

Obviously, you don't understand what a shorthanded situation is. What if you claimed Khimaira with only yourself, another PLD/NIN, a WHM, and RDM, and you had to hold him until your DDs and BRDs showed up?

Do you honestly think Enmity+7 from Macahuitl+1 and Koenig Shield and a Swift Belt would do more for you than Capricorn Staff and Haste Belt?

The second set of items would do more to lower timers and reduce MP expenditure than the first set, as long as you know how to recast Utsusemi, that is. You clearly don't understand what the word "situational" means.

sharksie wrote:
And the 7 enmity isnt for a hate cap, its so that you can stay above the melees, the mages, and the other tank (yes, co-tanking should be treated as a competition) every step of the way.


You have little understanding of how hate actually works. There is a hate cap, and all +Enmity does is decrease the amount of time it takes to hit that cap.

In the situation I described with Khimaira, clearly +Enmity isn't as important as boosting Haste% to lower the amount of damage taken.

Co-tanking should be treated as a cooperative competition. Both co-tanks should be doing as much as they can to boost their hate unless it's counter-productive. If my Utsusemi timers aren't ready, and casting a Cure III or IV will result in me getting blasted instead of my co-tank with the full set of shadows ready, I'd be a fool to cast that Cure IV.


sharksie wrote:
i can guarantee you that i would outtank you, me wearing a sword/shield, and you wearing that staff.


Do you want a medal to pin to your chest that says, "I would outtank Scar if he was using that Capricorn Staff thingy" or something?

I *could* guarantee I can cast Utsusemi better than you, since I don't have any problems keeping shadows up even without Shield Mastery, but considering I've never seen you tank, I'd be a fool for saying it.

However, I have seen you write.

I can guarantee you that I'd outwrite you, me using paragraphs, proper spelling and punctuation, backed up with common sense and experience, and you writing wall-of-texts based on truthiness and which prove you have no idea of what certain vocabulary words really mean.

Don't forget, the people who have more "situational" gear and the knowledge to use it correctly can and will outtank, outnuke, outcure, outenfeeble, or outwhatever you. That's how this game works, and the sooner you understand that, the better you'll be as a player.

sharksie wrote:
my shell takes down fafnir in 10 minutes, nid in a bit under 20. we have two tanks, and we never have hate issues.


That's great.

sharksie wrote:
oh, and you can do a swift belt run with 6, we got 3/6 people a belt in 2 hours. Limbus is a 45 minute event 2 times a week, thats not a big time commitment either.


"Big time commitment" and "significant time investment" do not mean the same thing...

Just gathering together a group of 6 people to do a Swift Belt run can take more than 2 hours. Farming a Fomor Codex can take more than 2 hours, which is why lazy people or people in a rush often buy them. Building up enough Fomor hate to even pop the NM can require a "significant time investment" if everybody is at level 1 hate. I could go on and on, but it's not worth the "significant time investment" to do so.

Attending Limbus for 45 minutes 8 times a month for 2-12 months before obtaining a full set of Homam is a "significant time investment," and that's not even factoring in the time required to farm the gil for entrance fees, tools, and food.

In any case, when I said "significant time investment", I simply meant you will have to put in some effort to get those items. You can't buy those items from the AH, you have to complete a certain amount of CoP missions to even attempt to acquire them, and you won't get a full suit of Homam in 15 minutes.

If you can't agree with what I'm saying here, we'll never agree. If you want to keep arguing, we can continue to do so. I don't mind derailing the guide. LOL






Edited, Aug 13th 2007 12:13am by ScarShiva
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#43 Aug 12 2007 at 2:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hmm, if you have decent backup, like you should for any planned pop like a god or ultima/omega, or you already have your people there at a HNM spawn, you should always be using sword/shield, because you should be able to hit the recast cap without needing capricorn staff.

That said, I see your point in using it if you are shorthanded, or if perhaps your alliance doesn't have a bard. Losing out on shield mastery is a bummer, but that 5% can be the difference in whether you're able to get your shadow recasts up in time or not. So, in most cases you will want to have macc+1 and koenig shield, but in a less than ideal situation, scar is right about sacrificing that for additional haste.

Edit: Just an addendum, I can't really recommend ever using a Haste belt, since when you use an enchanted item in battle, it stops you from doing anything else for the next several seconds. If you can do it while your co-tank has hate, then that's fine, but if the mob turns on you while you're unable to act, it could prove fatal.

Edited, Aug 12th 2007 6:29pm by WraithPK
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#44 Aug 12 2007 at 2:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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WraithPK wrote:
Edit: Just an addendum, I can't really recommend ever using a Haste belt, since when you use an enchanted item in battle, it stops you from doing anything else for the next several seconds. If you can do it while your co-tank has hate, then that's fine, but if the mob turns on you while you're unable to act, it could prove fatal.


It takes about 6-7 seconds to fire it off, and the effect lasts for 3 minutes. It can easily be activated after a fresh set of shadows are be put up.

In a shorthanded situation, 11% Haste (which doesn't count toward equipment Haste%) is worth the risk IMO.
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#45 Aug 12 2007 at 11:46 PM Rating: Good
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I can personally think of a good handful of situations where Cap. Staff might be of better use over sword/shield.

Small cerb/khim claming/holding parties are nice here unless you have a brd on the scene. IMO the point when the brd shows up its better to put the shield back on.

Bahamut V2 is a nice example of a situation Cap. Staff might be better. Shield procs on him are few and far between from what ive personally noticed. I actually didnt see any at all until I put 318ish shield skill on, and even then it was 1/8, Tried a buckler even, he still clowned my shield skill. Its better to only have 1 tank on this so you wont have a co-tank to bounce. He strips shadows often, and swings fast. Damage is very controlled in this fight so hate usually only comes from rdms trying to dispel and Healers, so going light on enmity wont get anyone killed here. You lose haste often do to his Roar spam so capping out haste in equip would be the best idea.

Quote:
(yes, co-tanking should be treated as a competition)


This is what gets people killed. Alpha-tanking doesnt work, LS's that have been around a bit generally have a set 3-4 tanks. They learn each others playstyles and they talk to each other. Get to know your co-tank, dont attempt to blow him out of the water.


Tanking gear is so situational you can not possibly say what is 100% for sure the best. Boils down to what your fighting, what your LS brings to the table and what you and your co-tank have equip-wise.

That being said, this is a Beginners FAQ, If your new to it then a Homam set would be extreamly hard to come-across, getting homam pieces takes alot of dedication and a good handful of luck. Without homam your only missing out on 6-9% haste this by no means, makes or breaks /nin. Its a very common mis-conception that Homam is needed before a pld can attempt /nin.

This is not the case, A Turban, some misc. haste-bits, a good brd and a good whm or rdm will be the the far bigger factor. March and haste brings alot more to the table then 2-3 pieces of homam could ever dream to do.

Here is my beginner's guide:

Step 1: change your sub to /nin
Step 2: Find a skilled bard
Step 3: Have bard sing march for you and land elegy on your target.
Step 4: Find a skilled Rdm and/or whm.
Step 5: have rdm and/or whm cast haste on you and debuff your target.
Step 6: Come back to this guide to start to piece together your haste build as suggested in Scar's Guide of items to obtain. Put together what pieces you can and make this your current goal in FFXI to come up with the rest.
Step 7: Profit

Take your time with step 6, haste gear wont fall on your lap over-night. Go get started, practice your recasts and practice co-tanking and bouncing hate to maximize your recast timers.

It used to be done before the shield patch, before the release of homam and turbans etc.

pld/nin has always been around, and has always done well. Everyone was just scared of not having provoke. Your hate is in your cures, your Recasts timers are helped by your party buffs. Everything else just makes it easier.


Edit: flash does get owned on claims due to speed. Provoke can be spammed out of your menu until It reaches the small window of claimable. So you either get it or someone just had spammed it at a .01second better. Instant JA's are the best claim tool. There is no cast time to worry about having timed right. Instant Target effecting JA's are few and far between. Voke and shadowbind are usually your best contenders.

Spell-wise 1.25-1.5 is your goal for cast times for NM claims if im not mistaken. Not taking into account any sort of fast-cast. Flash is .5 so if your spamming it, you will more then likely get owned due to speed.


Edited, Aug 13th 2007 4:06am by midgardDamac
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#46 Aug 13 2007 at 4:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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I bet capricorn staff would be better for tanking the mini hnm's in nyzul assault.
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#47sharksie, Posted: Aug 13 2007 at 5:45 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) if you're trying to claim something, you don't have time to hit provoke, have it get eaten, then try to flash it. it's claimed after your first attempt with all the people in say aery. oh, and i've solo held khimaira with just a bard and rdm, with a sword/shield. nin can evade attacks, which is why its easier for them to get ichi up, plus they get another shadow from ni. paladin will need to get very lucky on a parry/evade to get ichi up if you aren't using a shield.
#48 Aug 13 2007 at 8:35 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Provoke can be spammed out of your menu until It reaches the small window of claimable.



Quote:
Small cerb/khim claming/holding parties are nice here unless you have a brd on the scene. IMO the point when the brd shows up its better to put the shield back on.


I think we missed something.

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#49 Aug 13 2007 at 11:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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sharksie wrote:
if you're trying to claim something, you don't have time to hit provoke, have it get eaten, then try to flash it. it's claimed after your first attempt with all the people in say aery.


Really? I didn't know that. LOL

Provoke for the claim attempt and Flash to solidify hate once you or somebody in your alliance claimed it.

sharksie wrote:
oh, and i've solo held khimaira with just a bard and rdm, with a sword/shield.


How can you solo hold anything with 2 people helping you? Food for thought.

And LOL at "with just a BRD and RDM". You do realize that's the best support in the game for holding anything, right? Even if it took 4-5 tries to stick Elegy, you do realize it's not that challenging to hold him once you have Slow II and Elegy stuck on him, right? Or was I supposed to be impressed?

I use Sword/Shield anytime I have RDM and BRD support, which is 99.99% of the time, so don't think I use Capricorn Staff much if at all. In other words, let it go, man.

sharksie wrote:
nin can evade attacks, which is why its easier for them to get ichi up, plus they get another shadow from ni. paladin will need to get very lucky on a parry/evade to get ichi up if you aren't using a shield.


NINs don't evade HNMs enough for it to be reliable, especially Khimaira with his random attacks, and especially when they don't gear for it.

Again, quit making excuses. If you can't keep up shadows without the crutch I call Shield Mastery, learn to Utsusemi.

Shield Mastery was a great addition, but the best PLD/NINs were tanking anything and everything in the game before it was even added. It makes things easier, but a good sense of timing makes it redundant.

sharksie wrote:
oh, and lol @ this being an english class. if that's all you got left, go somewhere else.


So, tell me, have you learned what "significant time investment" means yet? It's evident you haven't learned what the word "situational" means yet, or how to write a proper paragraph.

I fail as a teacher, obviously.







Edited, Aug 13th 2007 10:13pm by ScarShiva
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#50sharksie, Posted: Aug 13 2007 at 2:53 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Am
#51 Aug 26 2007 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
Bumped for an easy find.
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