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Ravager Set+2 What exactly does it do?Follow

#1 Jan 21 2011 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
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Hello, I'm sorry if this topic has been raised before but I would really like to know if anyone knows what the proc rate is with a full 5/5 set? Ive been trying to search via Google, and all I found was one person on FFXI-AH who parsed a 4/5 Set at roughly 4% Proc rate. His Sample size was rather small (1200~ swings, 370~ Double Attacks) but it was enough to get the Idea it looks like. But is SE hiding the full benefit of an Armor set until the full 5/5 is worn? I'm really hoping I dont complete this set to be sorely disappointed :( Do any WARs out there have the full +2 set? Or does anyone have any answers to my question? Thank you for your time.
#2 Jan 23 2011 at 2:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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All the sets seem to have roughly the same proc rate;

1 piece: 0%
2 pieces: ~2%
3 pieces: ~4%
4 pieces: ~6%
5 pieces: ~10%

like the WotG gear sets, where 5/5 gives a -extra- bonus on top of the additional piece.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#3 Jan 23 2011 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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ah, thank you very much.
#4 Jan 24 2011 at 10:05 AM Rating: Default
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So the question I have is, is it even woth it to upgrade warrior +2 head.

AF3 Legs 7% + Feet 5% + Belt 4-6% (lets say 5%) = 17% I.e. need 8% to cap haste.

So you can equip that tiara (forget name) for 8% so then you could 4/5, but is the 5/5 bonus going to win?

Obviously ^&%$ is situational, but lets assume not a high haste scenario i.e. no brd. I am thinking 5/5 would win?

Thoughts?




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#5 Jan 25 2011 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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Tyleron wrote:
So the question I have is, is it even woth it to upgrade warrior +2 head.

AF3 Legs 7% + Feet 5% + Belt 4-6% (lets say 5%) = 17% I.e. need 8% to cap haste.

So you can equip that tiara (forget name) for 8% so then you could 4/5, but is the 5/5 bonus going to win?

Obviously ^&%$ is situational, but lets assume not a high haste scenario i.e. no brd. I am thinking 5/5 would win?

Thoughts?






I think the 8% haste is gonna beat the extra DA.

The reason i think it will is this.

Taken from The Warrior Index:

KWileyStyle wrote:
5) DA isn't something you should pile on at the expense of haste/acc. It has diminishing returns unlike haste which actually get better the more you have.
- Going from 0% DA to 10% DA = 110/100 = 10% increase, while going from 10% DA to 20% DA = 120/110 = 9% increase. This will continue to go down the more you add.




If im not mistaken there used to be alot of discussion on the Haste VS DA topic around here including alot of math from Pahn supporting the above statement by KwileyStyle.

Id look it up... but im lazy.
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#6 Jan 25 2011 at 12:42 PM Rating: Default
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Af3+2 head is WAR's best piece for Raging Rush and Ukko's Fury. TP should be Ravager's body/legs/feet +2, Goading, Zelus, and Perle hands, swapping to af3+2 hands when Restraint is up. You don't need to wear them for WS. Other pieces should be whatever sTP you need to 5hit with your weapon of choice and WAR af3 accessories in left over slots. WS in STR, oh god STR, thank you Atma and cruor buffs.
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Allatards/uber casuals hate haste, as valuing it would acknowledge that elitists are right


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#7 Jan 25 2011 at 6:39 PM Rating: Default
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KWileyStyle wrote:
5) DA isn't something you should pile on at the expense of haste/acc. It has diminishing returns unlike haste which actually get better the more you have.
- Going from 0% DA to 10% DA = 110/100 = 10% increase, while going from 10% DA to 20% DA = 120/110 = 9% increase. This will continue to go down the more you add.


His understanding of what diminishing returns means is wrong.

Going from 0% DA to 10% DA is 110 - 100 = 10 increase.
Going from 10% DA to 20% DA is 120 - 110 = 10 increase.
Going from 20% DA to 30% DA is 120 - 110 = 10 increase.

The amount of damage gained by each addition to DA is constant. If you graph the damage increase, the points form a straight line. This is linear returns, not diminishing.

This is not to say that the argument of haste being better than DA is wrong. Haste is in fact increasing returns.

Increasing returns > linear returns

Haste > DA

But, there is no amount of DA at which you are getting less benefit by stacking more onto it (unless you've actually hit 100%).
#8 Jan 25 2011 at 7:12 PM Rating: Good
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Your understanding of just how many long, boring threads have been made on that topic is wrong.

Lets put it this way. Ain't is in the dictionary now. You aren't going to win.
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Dooom wrote:
BG elitists <3 haste.

Allatards/uber casuals hate elitists.

Allatards/uber casuals hate haste, as valuing it would acknowledge that elitists are right


kerberoz wrote:
People don't hate emo kids because they're "misunderstood." People hate emo kids because they're useless.


Realix wrote:
PUP is an average to above average DD... when not in a zerg situation... or on particularly hard targets... and when properly configured... on windsday... with a RDM...
#9 Jan 25 2011 at 7:33 PM Rating: Decent
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TybudX wrote:
Your understanding of just how many long, boring threads have been made on that topic is wrong.

Lets put it this way. Ain't is in the dictionary now. You aren't going to win.

LOL! You have an excellent point.

I'm not even hoping to convince people who have their minds made up. My only concern is the new people who come along and are not yet tainted with misinformation. If the first thing they see is wrong and nobody counters it, they'll just believe it.

FYI, Rog actually admitted he was wrong. It only took like 15 pages.

You know what would be cool? We need a math professor on Alla with the ability to add red pen comments to all the math posts on here.
#10 Jan 26 2011 at 9:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok so the added stats of 5/5 +2 (including the Set bonus) is likely to lose to 4/5+2 with Haste gear.

I was hoping that the 5/5 set bonus on the +2 would win out.
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#11 Jan 26 2011 at 10:11 AM Rating: Default
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That would involve DA beating Haste which would be dividing by zero :/
#12 Jan 26 2011 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Tyleron wrote:
Ok so the added stats of 5/5 +2 (including the Set bonus) is likely to lose to 4/5+2 with Haste gear.

I was hoping that the 5/5 set bonus on the +2 would win out.

With 0% haste and a high delay weapon, there is a chance that 5/5 +2 with the set bonus would win. Since the benefits of haste do increase the more you stack on, the scale is going to shift significantly in haste's direction based on other haste gear/songs/spells you have on you. Most likely, you're well past the point where haste wins.
#13 Jan 27 2011 at 5:50 AM Rating: Good
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Niakohr wrote:

KWileyStyle wrote:
5) DA isn't something you should pile on at the expense of haste/acc. It has diminishing returns unlike haste which actually get better the more you have.
- Going from 0% DA to 10% DA = 110/100 = 10% increase, while going from 10% DA to 20% DA = 120/110 = 9% increase. This will continue to go down the more you add.


His understanding of what diminishing returns means is wrong.

Going from 0% DA to 10% DA is 110 - 100 = 10 increase.
Going from 10% DA to 20% DA is 120 - 110 = 10 increase.
Going from 20% DA to 30% DA is 120 - 110 = 10 increase.

The amount of damage gained by each addition to DA is constant. If you graph the damage increase, the points form a straight line. This is linear returns, not diminishing.

This is not to say that the argument of haste being better than DA is wrong. Haste is in fact increasing returns.

Increasing returns > linear returns

Haste > DA

But, there is no amount of DA at which you are getting less benefit by stacking more onto it (unless you've actually hit 100%).

god, do NOT start the @#%^ing double attack is not diminishing returns bullsh*t again. That's been done to death and back to many times already.

However, when one is considering haste vs DA one also has to consider the net over all gain of double damage procs on DA vs haste, and whether or not you're actually getting enough haste in a given situation for the haste to win out. Not everyone is going to be doing every event with Haste and double march. I sure as **** don't. Between preoccupied/lazy whms, and utter lack of bards, I know a lot of people don't play under high haste scenarios 90% of the time, so it's not really realistic to assume haste is ALWAYS better, given that at -just- gear haste cap, Turban vs Ravager's Mask +1 is really close, and from my experience, leans towards ravager's.

Niakohr wrote:
TybudX wrote:
Your understanding of just how many long, boring threads have been made on that topic is wrong.

Lets put it this way. Ain't is in the dictionary now. You aren't going to win.

LOL! You have an excellent point.

I'm not even hoping to convince people who have their minds made up. My only concern is the new people who come along and are not yet tainted with misinformation. If the first thing they see is wrong and nobody counters it, they'll just believe it.

FYI, Rog actually admitted he was wrong. It only took like 15 pages.

You know what would be cool? We need a math professor on Alla with the ability to add red pen comments to all the math posts on here.


For the record, the thread you're referencing wasn't the first Diminishing returns argument thread. iirc, Rog wasn't involved in the first one at all.

Edited, Jan 27th 2011 5:53am by Jinte
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#14 Jan 27 2011 at 6:24 AM Rating: Default
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How can you start with 0% haste with gear that has haste on it?
#15 Jan 27 2011 at 6:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Neisan wrote:
How can you start with 0% haste with gear that has haste on it?
um..... 5/5, Atma of the Sea Daughter, and Blitz Ring? Smiley: laugh
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#16 Jan 27 2011 at 6:35 AM Rating: Default
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The one atma I did not get :(
#17 Jan 28 2011 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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The set bonus does not add double attack it augments DA. The augment is x2 damage chance on a DA round. 5/5 gives you a 5% chance of double damage.
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#18 Feb 03 2011 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Lady Jinte wrote:
However, when one is considering haste vs DA one also has to consider the net over all gain of double damage procs on DA vs haste, and whether or not you're actually getting enough haste in a given situation for the haste to win out. Not everyone is going to be doing every event with Haste and double march. I sure as **** don't. Between preoccupied/lazy whms, and utter lack of bards, I know a lot of people don't play under high haste scenarios 90% of the time, so it's not really realistic to assume haste is ALWAYS better, given that at -just- gear haste cap, Turban vs Ravager's Mask +1 is really close, and from my experience, leans towards ravager's.

I was trying to explain the trend rather than the specific math. As both numbers go higher, the benefit leans toward haste. You're right to point out that it was a gross generalization and individual situations vary.

Lady Jinte wrote:
For the record, the thread you're referencing wasn't the first Diminishing returns argument thread. iirc, Rog wasn't involved in the first one at all.

I knew it wasn't the first thread on the subject. I'm well aware that there were quite a few arguments about it long before I ever got involved. It was never resolved, people just finally got sick of arguing it. I had no intention of changing anybody's mind here. All I cared about was that somebody new didn't see wrong information posted without anybody saying, "Psst. That's a load of crap."
#19 Feb 03 2011 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
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TaintCerberus wrote:
The set bonus does not add double attack it augments DA. The augment is x2 damage chance on a DA round. 5/5 gives you a 5% chance of double damage.

LOL making DA increasing returns. (by such a minuscule amount it isn't worth debating)
#20 Feb 03 2011 at 6:29 PM Rating: Default
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No bonus to Activation for full set? Then again it seems DD jobs set bonuses either just proc too low, or Rdm lucked out and got a special bonus for full set.

Not that the full set is good for meleeing in in the first place.
#21 Feb 10 2011 at 6:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Going from 0% DA to 10% DA is 110 - 100 = 10 increase.
Going from 10% DA to 20% DA is 120 - 110 = 10 increase.
Going from 20% DA to 30% DA is 120 - 110 = 10 increase.


This is how diminishing returns work,

110/100 = 1.10 10% gain,
120/110 = 1.09 9% gain,
130/120 = 1.083 8.3% gain,
140/130 = 1.076 7.6% gain

See a pattern, as each unit of DA is added the percentage gain gets smaller and smaller.
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#22 Feb 10 2011 at 11:36 PM Rating: Default
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Quote:
Going from 0% DA to 10% DA is 110 - 100 = 10 increase.
Going from 10% DA to 20% DA is 120 - 110 = 10 increase.
Going from 20% DA to 30% DA is 120 - 110 = 10 increase.


This is how diminishing returns work,

110/100 = 1.10 10% gain,
120/110 = 1.09 9% gain,
130/120 = 1.083 8.3% gain,
140/130 = 1.076 7.6% gain

See a pattern, as each unit of DA is added the percentage gain gets smaller and smaller.


I SAID, DON'T ******* START IT AGAIN.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#23 Feb 11 2011 at 2:43 PM Rating: Default
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Good luck getting Saevel to stop...
#24 Feb 20 2011 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
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#25 Feb 25 2011 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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No offense but a lot of people have no clue what diminishing returns even means.

If you have 10 DA as a base:

1) If you add +10 DA do you gain 10% in the chance to DA (does it go from 10% to 20%)?
2) Do you gain less then 10% chance to DA (Does it go from 10% to any number less then 20)?


If its 1, its linear, if its 2 its diminishing.

You MUST MUST MUST measure the return with constant units. IE for every 10% DA you add, do you see a 10% increase in the rate of DA?
You dont measure it as
10->20% (increase of x2)
20->30 (increase of 1.5)


Go look it up in wiki or take an economics class, but that is such terrible information.
#26 Mar 04 2011 at 6:10 PM Rating: Default
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I havent posted in the war forums in over a year (since war is retired), but I had to get in on the last (hopefully) thread of adding DA isnt diminishing returns. I've been drinking, that is all, carry on.
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#27 Mar 05 2011 at 2:20 AM Rating: Default
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Calm down, bronies.
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#28 Mar 13 2011 at 2:28 PM Rating: Decent
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What Gaxe said
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#29 Mar 17 2011 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Lady Jinte wrote:
All the sets seem to have roughly the same proc rate;

1 piece: 0%
2 pieces: ~2%
3 pieces: ~4%
4 pieces: ~6%
5 pieces: ~10%

like the WotG gear sets, where 5/5 gives a -extra- bonus on top of the additional piece.


I'm honestly wondering from where you pulling those numbers...
You definitely don't realize the impact your misinformation, voluntary or not doesnot matter, has on the following posts...

For the OP, I recently made also a parsing test for 4/5 ravager+2 set bonus, posted on same FFXIAH.com thread.
Numbers comes more closer to :
1 piece : 0%
2 pieces: 1%
3 pieces: 2%
4 pieces: 3%
5 pieces: 5% ?
...from 33% double attack total.

... pretty much like all other set+2 bonuses based on a random event.

Most important thing to insist on is :
Those % values are based ON A RANDOM EVENT (here double attacks), so if you asking for the real total %, have to calculate with total #hits+crits+misses (and not only the # of random events, here DAs only).
Obviously the final results will come out lot lower than 5%...

Additional note: that makes WAR set+2 much less appealing than a mixed gears set, same for other AF3+2 setss based on a random event. On other hand, AF3 sets like PLD's or BLU's arenot based on a random event but on a "controlled" event (1st is how much mob hits you -usually 95% of the time- and 2nd is how much you hit your spell macros), easy to guess overall % will be much higher than WAR's.

Edited, Mar 17th 2011 11:33am by Masamunai
#30 Mar 17 2011 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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Masamunai wrote:
Lady Jinte wrote:
All the sets seem to have roughly the same proc rate;

1 piece: 0%
2 pieces: ~2%
3 pieces: ~4%
4 pieces: ~6%
5 pieces: ~10%

like the WotG gear sets, where 5/5 gives a -extra- bonus on top of the additional piece.


I'm honestly wondering from where you pulling those numbers...
You definitely don't realize the impact your misinformation, voluntary or not doesnot matter, has on the following posts...

For the OP, I recently made also a parsing test for 4/5 ravager+2 set bonus, posted on same FFXIAH.com thread.
Numbers comes more closer to :
1 piece : 0%
2 pieces: 1%
3 pieces: 2%
4 pieces: 3%
5 pieces: 5% ?
...from 33% double attack total.

... pretty much like all other set+2 bonuses based on a random event.

Most important thing to insist on is :
Those % values are based ON A RANDOM EVENT (here double attacks), so if you asking for the real total %, have to calculate with total #hits+crits+misses (and not only the # of random events, here DAs only).
Obviously the final results will come out lot lower than 5%...

Additional note: that makes WAR set+2 much less appealing than a mixed gears set, same for other AF3+2 setss based on a random event. On other hand, AF3 sets like PLD's or BLU's arenot based on a random event but on a "controlled" event (1st is how much mob hits you -usually 95% of the time- and 2nd is how much you hit your spell macros), easy to guess overall % will be much higher than WAR's.

Edited, Mar 17th 2011 11:33am by Masamunai




Yeah I tp in 4/5 and barely ever see a proc.
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#31 Jul 13 2011 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Quote:
Going from 0% DA to 10% DA is 110 - 100 = 10 increase.
Going from 10% DA to 20% DA is 120 - 110 = 10 increase.
Going from 20% DA to 30% DA is 120 - 110 = 10 increase.


This is how diminishing returns work,

110/100 = 1.10 10% gain,
120/110 = 1.09 9% gain,
130/120 = 1.083 8.3% gain,
140/130 = 1.076 7.6% gain

See a pattern, as each unit of DA is added the percentage gain gets smaller and smaller.


That's diminishing returns when looking at percentage incremental gains, however that's simply a flawed and skewed manner of observing double attack, and all other probability based aspects of the game.

If you have 100 attacks of 1 damage each, and you add 10% double attack, you have a 10% chance of attack twice for another 1 damage each. This will end up being approximately 10 extra attacks, or essentially 10 extra damage. For every % of double attack you add, you're gaining that exact same % of your base number of attacks and essentially that exact same % of your base damage. Since you cannot double attack on a doubled attack, there is most certainly a hard cap of 100% at the most. This means, at the most, you can add 100% of your base damage.

Despite the argument of increasing, linear, or diminishing returns, the pieces in question result to this:

In what situations will haste +8% outdo STR+8, VIT+8, Acc/attack +14, Crit Hit rate +3%, Double Attack +4%, and Double Attack Damage +4%? (assuming 4/5 +2 as a constant)

That's a whole lot more to consider than just double attack +4% vs Haste +8%.
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