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5-hit build on Great Axe?Follow

#1 Jul 27 2010 at 6:46 AM Rating: Good
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I was looking at 5-hit builds for my Sam and Drk, and now I'm wondering if it's possible on War with a 102 dmg Bonesplitter or 97 dmg Store TP Sumeru?
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#2 Jul 27 2010 at 7:35 AM Rating: Good
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Its not the damage that matter for a X hit build, its the delay.

Our standard ( Perdu voulge, Byakko's, berserker's ) Great Axes have Delay 504.

The bonesplitter has 504 delay - it is exactly as difficult to make a bonespliter 5-hit as it is for our current great axes.

The Stp Sumeru has delay 488 - it is even harder to make a X-hit build than with our standard axes. But it does give some Stp to compensate.


So, short answer: No.
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#3 Jul 27 2010 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
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In order to get a 5hit with the STP GA, you need 52 total STP

With a normal GA you need 46.

If it is even possible you are going to end up having to use some weird gear, lets see

/SAM : 15
Rajas: 5
Aurumn: 7
Rose: 4
Goading: 5
Brutal: 1

All of the above is still only +37. It is +43 if you are using the STP GA. Still need quite a bit, and starting to really sacrifice stats for STP after the gear I mentioned above. Could add in stuff like Ecphoria(1), White tathlum(2), and the Hoard ring(4). Even with that you need 8 more. Carbonara is 6... so getting close, add in.. a Fourth division mantle and you -technically- have it. However, I can't imagine that giving up that much gear is worth the 5 hit.

#4 Jul 27 2010 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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You forgot the fact that the Stp Gaxe has lower delay than 504. So it needs even more Stp.
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#5 Jul 27 2010 at 2:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Either way, the amount of gear you need to do it, regardless of the axe, seems to be giving up way to much in the way of other stats to be useful.

Edited, Jul 27th 2010 4:40pm by ShamanTaru
#6 Jul 27 2010 at 10:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I think a better question to consider, is what about 6 hits builds with the < 504 delay GA's?
Like... Empyrean GA, and a few of the other new GA's that recently arrived.
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#7 Jul 27 2010 at 10:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Need 27 STP for 6 hit on 488 delay GA

15 /SAM
5 Rajas
1 Brutal
6 Carbonara / 7 Aurumn body

27/28 And not giving up to much or anything if you eat the carb.


Edited, Jul 28th 2010 12:47am by ShamanTaru
#8 Jul 27 2010 at 10:49 PM Rating: Good
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Looks like we're stuck on 6-hit builds on Gaxe... Oh well, we kick **** anyway ^^
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#9 Jul 28 2010 at 1:08 AM Rating: Good
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Is there anything inherently wrong with a 6-hit that's also fast and furious?
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#10 Jul 28 2010 at 5:40 AM Rating: Good
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No, but I was looking at options ^^ They should hav gave us better Gaxe magian trials, our weapon barely hit 100 dmg, yet DRK can get up to 105-109 on WS trials easily... I'll be rocking Perdu until Bonesplitter 102 dmg then...
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#11 Jul 28 2010 at 9:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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ShamanTaru wrote:
In order to get a 5hit with the STP GA, you need 52 total STP

With a normal GA you need 46.

If it is even possible you are going to end up having to use some weird gear, lets see

/SAM : 15
Rajas: 5
Aurumn: 7
Rose: 4
Goading: 5
Brutal: 1

All of the above is still only +37. It is +43 if you are using the STP GA. Still need quite a bit, and starting to really sacrifice stats for STP after the gear I mentioned above. Could add in stuff like Ecphoria(1), White tathlum(2), and the Hoard ring(4). Even with that you need 8 more. Carbonara is 6... so getting close, add in.. a Fourth division mantle and you -technically- have it. However, I can't imagine that giving up that much gear is worth the 5 hit.

At that point it might be a "5-hit plus 1/2/3-whiff" build.
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#12 Jul 28 2010 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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Get the Vermeil Bhuj form Abyssea if you can.. 104 DMG and 8 STR is the best you can get atm I would suspect.
#13 Jul 28 2010 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Heavy Darksteel Axe lv59 dmg85 delay529

it would be much easier to try and hit the 5 hit with this axe. however, is it worth using a 85dmg gaxe?
#14 Jul 28 2010 at 1:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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No, it is not.
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#15 Jul 28 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
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No, it is not.
What he said.
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#16 Jul 28 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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What he said.
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#17 Jul 28 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
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ShamanTaru wrote:
In order to get a 5hit with the STP GA, you need 52 total STP

With a normal GA you need 46.

If it is even possible you are going to end up having to use some weird gear, lets see

/SAM : 15
Rajas: 5
Aurumn: 7
Rose: 4
Goading: 5
Brutal: 1

All of the above is still only +37. It is +43 if you are using the STP GA. Still need quite a bit, and starting to really sacrifice stats for STP after the gear I mentioned above. Could add in stuff like Ecphoria(1), White tathlum(2), and the Hoard ring(4). Even with that you need 8 more. Carbonara is 6... so getting close, add in.. a Fourth division mantle and you -technically- have it. However, I can't imagine that giving up that much gear is worth the 5 hit.


Correct me if i'm wrong, RR/KJ are 3hit WS so you should only need 44STP for a Delay:504 Gaxe, 45STP Assuming one of the hits misses.
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#18 Jul 28 2010 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
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Sequ wrote:
ShamanTaru wrote:
In order to get a 5hit with the STP GA, you need 52 total STP

With a normal GA you need 46.

If it is even possible you are going to end up having to use some weird gear, lets see

/SAM : 15
Rajas: 5
Aurumn: 7
Rose: 4
Goading: 5
Brutal: 1

All of the above is still only +37. It is +43 if you are using the STP GA. Still need quite a bit, and starting to really sacrifice stats for STP after the gear I mentioned above. Could add in stuff like Ecphoria(1), White tathlum(2), and the Hoard ring(4). Even with that you need 8 more. Carbonara is 6... so getting close, add in.. a Fourth division mantle and you -technically- have it. However, I can't imagine that giving up that much gear is worth the 5 hit.


Correct me if i'm wrong, RR/KJ are 3hit WS so you should only need 44STP for a Delay:504 Gaxe, 45STP Assuming one of the hits misses.


I don't think this will make-or-break anything.
#19 Sep 03 2010 at 9:06 PM Rating: Default
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Hello all I am a Bravura user and I have a 5 hit build. Heres what I use:

Samurai Sub STP+15
Hachiryu Hands
Hachiryu Legs {STP+10 for 3 pieces of Hachiryu}
Hachiryu Feet
Aurumn Body STP+7
Rajas Ring STP+5
Rose Strap STP+4
White Tathlum STP+2
Brutal Earring STP+1
Atilla Earring STP+1
Ecphoria Earring STP+1
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carbonarra(Food) STP+6

All of this together nets +52 STP while allowing for an almost unaltered WS set. Macroing in Hands and Feet for more STR will drop the STP value, yes but if one is using Raging Rush or King's Justice (Raging Rush is my WS of choice ever since Critical Attack Trait lol) you will recieve more than 20% TP return with 2-3 hits as long as the first doesnt miss; Granting you a 5/4-hit.

This Set noticably trades off 10% Haste for 10% WS Frequency. This will drop one's Damage over Time Slightly but for those who are powerful WSer's this combo is quite nice, mobs only have so much HP, and a good WS can usually yank 25% - 75% of a mob's HP depending on what your fighting so having TP at one's finger tips can actually cheat other people out of a parse since they wont be able to get any hits in lol. But these days its all about abyssea anyway idk if I'd wanna try parsing an alliance idk about you guys.

Also, this set is done with really high end s*** but thats the bullet I have to bite for owning a Bravura. If you have a completed Sumaru, you can keep Hachi Legs for a WS piece and keep the Byakko Haidate for an extra 5% Haste, and can sub +1STP from either an Atilla Earring or that Ecphoria Ring for something you like better. A Goading Belt would also work (I'd be using one but I dont have one yet lol) Hachiryu Body would also be lovely but again, Dream on lol.

Hope this info helps some.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2010 11:08pm by Yandaime
#20 Sep 03 2010 at 10:35 PM Rating: Good
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here is my question. at what point does going from 5 hit to 6hit become better than using normal haste+ gear? im having a lot of sam's and war's asking me how to achieve a 5 hit build and i tell them but im not sure if its worth dropping haste gear to do it. at what point does a 5 hit with lots of stp out perform a 6 hit with lots of haste?
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#21 Sep 04 2010 at 9:29 AM Rating: Default
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Alot of it depends on the situation. Lets say your out doing a Nyzul Isle run or Limbus/Dynamis. Having TP at your finger tips would be the best thing so you can quickly swat mobs away and move on. But to answer your question:

in my Haste settup, I have 21%(20%) Haste as a 6/5 and in my STP set I have 11%(10%) Haste as a 5/4 so I lose 10% Haste

These will be perfect scenarios where one is never hasted, and one never misses just for an estimation under perfect conditions.

~~There are 3600 seconds in an hour, Bravura's Delay is 488. Every 60 DEL = 1 Second
~~~I will assume an Average strike damage of 200 and again at 275
~~~I will use Metatron Torment as the WS since its probably the most simplistic and almost the same strength as Kings Justice.
~~~Metatron Torment's Mods are [DMG]x2.85 at all TP ranges STR60%. fSTR will be assumed as +80 (+48%) Gorget is in effect
~~~Assumed that Double Attack never procs
Torment will do around 844 Damage when hitting 200
Torment will do around 1160 Damage when hitting 275

21%(20%) Set: DEL = 390 = 6.5 Sec per swing = 553 Swings per hour
This set is a 6/5 so I would get 110 WSs in 1 Hour at most
This will give me 110,600 Melee Damage Per Hour and 92,840 WS Damage
~Total of 203,440 Damage per hour when hitting 200~

11%(10%) Set: DEL = 439 = 7.3 Sec per swing = 493 Swings per hour
This set is a 5/4 so I would get 123 WSs in 1 Hour at most
This will give me 98,600 Melee Damage Per Hour and 103,812 WS Damage
~Total of 202,412 Damage per Hour when hitting 200~

A 1.51% Difference in the Haste Set's Favor. Not very large given this runs through an hour.

==Now when we run that same "perfect" scenario when hitting 275==

21%(20%) Set: DEL = 390 = 6.5 Sec per swing = 553 Swings per hour
This set is a 6/5 so I would get 110 WSs in 1 Hour at most
This will give me 152,075 Melee Damage Per Hour and 127,600 WS Damage
~Total of 279,675 per Hour when hitting 275~

11%(10%) Set: DEL = 439 = 7.3 Sec per swing = 493 Swings per hour
This set is a 5/4 so I would get 123 WSs in 1 Hour at most
This will give me 135,575 Melee Damage Per Hour and 142,680 WS Damage
~Total of 278,255 Damage per Hour when hitting 275~

A Difference of 1.51% again.

As it stands, the Damage Outputs of both settups is nearly identical with the Faster set beeing only just barely, like wow thats not even an Inch, more Potent. However, this was done with a WS that is very clean and doesnt jump around. Now if we tried this with Raging Rush (its so awesome after this last update) You will probably see some interesting changes. My RR's currently average 1400 with spikes of 1700-2200 not too rarely. Idk about other WARs. And also considering that the two sets are nearly tied, I would have to say I favor the STP set just because of the situational usefulness of having TP all the time lol. Now if I get a Goading Belt, its over. With that Belt, Ill be able to close the Haste gap and still keep the really high WS Frequency.

**These were simulated tests run in a relatively perfect situation where no one ever misses and no randomness occurs. I prefer doing this rather than parsing cuz again, I dont like randomness lol**

hope this helps


Edited, Sep 4th 2010 11:31am by Yandaime
#22 Sep 06 2010 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
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Yandaime wrote:
Hello all I am a Bravura user and I have a 5 hit build. Heres what I use:

Samurai Sub STP+15
Hachiryu Hands
Hachiryu Legs {STP+10 for 3 pieces of Hachiryu}
Hachiryu Feet
Aurumn Body STP+7
Rajas Ring STP+5
Rose Strap STP+4
White Tathlum STP+2
Brutal Earring STP+1
Atilla Earring STP+1
Ecphoria Earring STP+1
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carbonarra(Food) STP+6


So... Comparing your set...

Hachy hands - 10 DEX, 5 acc
Hachy feet -
Hachy Legs - 10 STR, 5 atk
Aurum - 8 STR, 8 DEX, 15 atk
Rajas - 5 STR, 5 DEX
Rose Strap
White Tathlum
Brutal
Atilla
Ecphoria - 4 acc
Bravura - 20 acc
Carbonara

Total:
23 STR
23 DEX
20 Atk
25 acc


Against

Dusk Gloves - 3% haste, 5 atk
Aurum Sabatons - 2% Haste, 3 DEX, 5 acc, 5 atk
Byakko's Haidate - 5% Haste, 15 DEX
Haubergeon +1 - 6 STR, 6 DEX, 12 ACC, 12 ATK
Rajas - 5 STR, 5 DEX
Rose Strap
Fire Bomblet - 6 Acc, 6 Atk
Brutal
Merman's - 6 Atk
Ecphoria - 4 Acc
Perdu - 5 Acc, 10 Atk

Total:
10% Haste
11 STR
29 DEX
44 Atk
32 Acc


You are trying to sell that a 5-hit build is better than 10% haste? 10% Haste, extra attack and extra acc? 10% haste and 20 extra acc if you put a bravura on the second set?


Im not sure you understand - 10% haste DOES give you 10% extra WS frequency. Because you gain the needed tp faster.
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#23 Sep 06 2010 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
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Im not sure you understand - 10% haste DOES give you 10% extra WS frequency. Because you gain the needed tp faster.


Some people put time into getting great gear and some people put time into understanding how it works. A good mix of both works best it would seem.
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#24 Sep 07 2010 at 12:03 AM Rating: Good
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10% haste is ..... Absolutely Massive.



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#25 Sep 07 2010 at 1:33 AM Rating: Decent
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going from a 6hit to 5hit is a 16.7% increase in ws frequency if my numbers are right. it seems like a good trade off for 16.7% increase compared to 10% haste. but if you start getting high haste: marches, hasso, dnc, haste im thinking that 10% will start to make a big difference. little ffxicalculator math is showing you'd need 14% haste to cap and thats pretty much what you'd be missing by using 5hit. im sure there's a cut off where 5hit>haste and vice versa.
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#26 Sep 07 2010 at 5:17 AM Rating: Good
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Going from 15% haste to 25% haste is a 13.3% increase in DoT & ws frequency
Going from 25% haste to 35% haste is a 15.4% increase in Dot & ws frequency
Going from 30% haste to 40% haste is a 16.7% increase in Dot & ws frequency


So you only need 30% haste (spell & gear?) before that 10% is makin a large impact. Any higher haste then 30% and it starts to get silly the losses your making. Thats just from the haste too, from what Thekhory said, your also losing ~10Acc and ~20Att sacrificing gear which is enough to make 5Hit inferior going from 15% to 25% haste.

Unless you have Mnk or Nin, I'd sell Hachiryu Kote, and I can't realy think of any use for the Sune-Ate bar some tailor specific Eva setup.

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#27 Sep 07 2010 at 8:07 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah this is one of those cases in which the sacrifice does not add up to the benefit. 10% haste (12% if he got Dusk Gloves +1 and Blitz Ring) and 25 acc and 20 attack is HUGE to give up. That is giving up a lot of DoT to WS more (which you are also giving up some damage in your WS set). Another thing to think about is that since Relics can't proc a triple damage on a WS, you only see that benefit during your DoT. So giving up more melee swings is going to lower your DoT even more due to not getting as many procs (this is a smaller increase but still there).

So here is a little breakdown for each loss:

11% haste to 23% haste is a 15.6% increase to DoT/WSfreq.
20 attack is roughly a 3% increase to DoT.
25 acc (if you get full benefit from it) is a 15.2% increase to Dot/WSfreq [going from 82.5% hit rate to 95%].

In a lot of older content you are probably beyond capped acc so you are still losing damage without any haste. Add any outside haste and this gap becomes larger and larger. The harder the content, the more the acc will come into play and again grow this gap. Also, the second set allows you to eat whatever food you want, so if high amounts of acc is needed you can switch to pizza (or sushi if crazy amount of acc is needed) or you could eat a more powerful attack food.
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#28 Sep 08 2010 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
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Loss of haste, acc, and eating a sub par atk food?

Have you tried posting this set up on BG yet lol?
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#29 Sep 14 2010 at 12:08 PM Rating: Good
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I think that with the December update(lvl 90 and possible new trials), a +2 version of the Sumeru+1 STP could allow us to get a 5-hit build without losing any haste ^^
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#30 Sep 15 2010 at 8:37 AM Rating: Decent
The Kunlun has delay514.

+

Eisen Grip RareExclusive
(Grips) All Races
Physical damage taken -2%
Lv. 76 WAR / PLD / DRK / BST / SAM / DRG


* Hidden effect: Increases delay by ~24%

I think that would be waaay more than enough for a 5hit.
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#31 Sep 15 2010 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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Let's see:

/sam : 15 STP
Sumeru +1: 11 STP
Rose strap: 4 STP
Brutal earring: 1 STP
Chivalrous chain: 1 STP
Aurum cuirass: 7 STP
Rajas ring: 5 STP
Bellenos mantle: +2 STP
Carbonara: 6 STP

Which ends up to 52 STP for a guetto 5hit build at 85 using carbonara food...doable but probably better on a 6hit since most AF3 have a **** of Double attack on it...
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