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#1 May 19 2010 at 10:39 PM Rating: Decent
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i've been reading everything in this forum. looking for equations, how things work. i've been through most of the previous post and have tried to do comparison's between weapons/armor sets but its difficult since the pages on wiki are made so simple that its hard to use them in game context. the only thing close to use is the sticky with an excel program for merit camps. im not looking for a plug in numbers and it pops up, but id like to see someone with the equation and what the different variables mean. i think it'd be good for war's and melee's in general. plus would get rid of this "gear A vs gear B" when they could actually figure it out themselves.

and if anyone has a way to compute haste into swings into damage done, id really appreciate it. ive been going through equations and math for the last 4 days and it keeps coming out off what would be expected. thanks
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#2 May 20 2010 at 1:34 AM Rating: Good
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Damage equations are all available on the wiki. By "the wiki" I mean ffxiclopedia.
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#3 May 20 2010 at 1:56 AM Rating: Good
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Nilatai the Intelligent wrote:
Damage equations are all available on the wiki. By "the wiki" I mean ffxiclopedia.
They don't always present them in an especially user-friendly fashion, though, but I can't think of any examples of that offhand.
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#4 May 20 2010 at 8:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Physical_Damage

Things are a bit complex to understand because the calculations are a bit complex.

Particularly on WSes.

But if you do have some knowledge of math and isnt afraid of understanding formulas, it isnt hard to understand how it works.
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#5 May 21 2010 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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As the person who wrote the new pDIF page, I can tell you its a bit off if you aren't over 1.66 (10/6) attack/defense ratio, but anything above that is spot-on (which is fine for most anything through merit mobs).

The pDIF page actually has a better overall view of damage calculation than the damage calculation page itself, but leaves out multiplying final pDIF by your base damage which is your weapon damage plus fSTR (which is something like 25% of your STR minus your targets VIT).

But that Calculating Physical Damage page should do you pretty good if you click each link (and some sublinks, like fSTR). You probably want this too:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Weapon_Skill_Damage
Particularly for physical WS.

Edited, May 20th 2010 11:07pm by Raelix
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#6 May 21 2010 at 1:59 AM Rating: Decent
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ok, so can someone look this over and tell me what you think. this isnt actually me at 75, but theoretical so i understand the idea behind the math.

so at 75, with perdu voulge. assuming capped 95% acc, 657att to achieve 1.66cRation, a 6hit build, and 91str ws damage on a 82 greater colibri using king's justice discounting double attack, and crit's:

weapon skill damage=(dmg+fstr+wsc)*ftp*pdif*#hits
max(96+(91-67)+(91*.5))1.0*(1.2*1.6)=317.76*3=953.28
min(96+(91-67)+(91*.5))1.0*(1.2*1.6-.8)185.36*3=556.08

melee damage=(dmg+fstr)*pdif
max(96+(91-67))*1.2*1.6=230.4
min(96+(91-67))*(1.2*1.6-.8)=134.4
average melee dmg=(230.4+134.4)/2=182.4

delay*(1-haste)/60=sec/hit
(sec/hit)^-1=hit/sec
(hit/sec)*(60sec/min)=hit/min

so 0%haste would be 504*(1-.0)/60=8.4sec/hit
((8.4sec/hit)^-1)*60sec/min=7.143hit/min

with 40%haste would be 504*(1-.4)/60=5.004sec/hit
((5.04sec/hit)^-1)*60sec/min=11.90hit/min

with 95%acc, 0% haste hits would be 7.143hit/min*.95=6.785hits/min
40% haste hits would be 11.90hit/min*.95=11.305hits/min

0%haste damage per min would be 6.785hits*182.4dmg=1236.67damage/min
40%haste damage per min would be 11.305hits*182.4dmg=2062.03damage/min

0%haste is 6 hits, 1 ws so 1236.67+953.28=2189.95 damage per min
40%haste is 11 hits, 1ws from 0tp and 1ws from 1ws from tp from previous ws is 2062.03+953.28*2=3968.59 damage per min



does this look right? where would things like double attack and zanshin fight into this?
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#7 May 21 2010 at 2:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Almost right, but fTP only applies to the first hit. Subsequent hits are effectively 1.0 fTP, so you add them to the fTP, thus KJ is 3.0 at 100tp.

But you pretty much screwed the pooch on everything else.

Try here too, but know that its way out of date in the pDIF/cRatio section, use the page on the wiki for that. Weapon rank, WSC calculation, and fSTR are much better explained.

Don't try to make one big mess of numbers to detail everything, stick to max damage for sake of comparisons and don't bother with minimums
    OR
use a 1.025 pDIF multiplier for a true 'average'.

fSTR is (dSTR+4)/4, not just dSTR

WS mods are much more complex, explained well at that VZX page. Its percentage of your stat * 0.83 for level 75 (which means we're gonna need new numbers next month).

97 STR on a 50% mod is 45.5 (floor it), 45 * .83 = 37.35 and floor it again = +37 base damage

I'm just gonna use your STR number for melee hits as well to demonstrate most of the formula, then come back to WS:

Perdu Voulge is 91 damage, WRANK 10.

fSTR caps at +18 (WRANK+8), 135 STR on birds (just from memory). 135-91=44 STR away from fSTR cap, -11 fSTR for +7

91+7 = 98 base damage

Your Ratio/cRatio calculation is correct, just know that Ratio caps at 2.2 for 2-handers so the best cRatio you can get on these lv82 birds is 1.85 anyway. This last part is a new concept to people even three years after SE changed it, because you used to be able to push all the Ratio you wanted and have your cRatio capped at 2.2.

Another screwy bit is the secondary randomization they added to make capped crits not always be the same number, its a random number between 1.00 and 1.05 multiplied on the 'pDIFa' to get a new 'pDIFb'. 1.025 is a 1.0 pDIF average multiplied by a 1.025 average secondary randomizer, I'll use this later.

cRatio 1.66 * pdif multiplier 1.2 = 1.992 pDIFa

1.992 pDIFa * 1.05 max secondary randomization = 2.0916 pDIFb

2.0916 * 98 damage = 204(.9 but you floor it) max damage.

Average should be 1.66 * 1.025 * 98 = 166 damage.

For WS:
91 weapon + 7 fSTR + 37 STR50% = 135 base damage

No attack mod on WS. Going to use the 'average' of pDIF and secondary randomization because not all WS hits are gonna peak at the same time.

1.66 cRatio * 1.025 = 1.7015 * (1.0 + 1.0 + 1.0) = 5.1045 * 135 = 689 average KJ damage without DA or Crit.

A crit on any one hit is gonna have a pDIFb of (1.66+1.0)*1.025 = 2.7265, so:

One crit: 2.7265 + 1.7015*2 * 135 = 827 damage
Two crits: 2.72*2 + 1.70 * 135 = 963 damage
Three crits: 2.72*3 * 135 = 1101 damage

Look about right?
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#8 May 21 2010 at 3:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Almost right, but fTP only applies to the first hit. Subsequent hits are effectively 1.0 fTP, so you add them to the fTP, thus KJ is 3.0 at 100tp.


i had this, i just did x3 instead of 1+1+1 but i think it would end the same.

Quote:
fSTR is (dSTR+4)/4, not just dSTR


i have this written down like this, but i forgot to put it in.

Quote:
97 STR on a 50% mod is 45.5 (floor it), 45 * .83 = 37.35 and floor it again = +37 base damage


i think you mean 91str, but its late so cool. i didnt scroll down enough to see the .83 i think.

Quote:
Another screwy bit is the secondary randomization they added to make capped crits not always be the same number, its a random number between 1.00 and 1.05 multiplied on the 'pDIFa' to get a new 'pDIFb'. 1.025 is a 1.0 pDIF average multiplied by a 1.025 average secondary randomizer,


this is confusing and i didnt see this in any of the other sites. ill take this as a constant.
other than that i pretty much got it i think. i did the math again and the numbers are coming out the same as you. you kept using 91 for calculating damage for perdu but wouldnt it be 96 because of latent?

obviously since i screwed the avg dmg, melee dmg is skewed but is the haste concept right? id did haste math most the day in class so i think the hit/min should be right.
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#9 May 21 2010 at 4:28 AM Rating: Decent
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figster wrote:
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Another screwy bit is the secondary randomization they added to make capped crits not always be the same number, its a random number between 1.00 and 1.05 multiplied on the 'pDIFa' to get a new 'pDIFb'.

this is confusing and i didnt see this in any of the other sites. ill take this as a constant.

Yeah, its applied to all damage. After the first 2-hander update there were too many crits turning out the same number every time, SE wanted them to vary. I only briefly touched on it in the wiki page, it probably needs its own nice clean section.

Its apparent in the numbers and detailed over in this thread when I took the time to hammer all of this **** out.

tl;dr people kept finding 2.77 as a pDif 'cap'.

2.2 * 1.2 * 1.05 = 2.77

And high ratio 2-hander crits have always capped at 3.0, but now vary from 3.0-3.15, the latter of which is 1.05 * 3.0

This little bit of trickery made people go insane and give up trying to work out the new sh*t when clean numbers never came out (until you remove this 1.00-1.05 off the top of everything). Bravo SE.

Also, yeah, I only glanced at Perdu Voulge for the base damage. DRK gets to 'LOL, PERDU' now with the magian weapons going around.

Edited, May 21st 2010 3:31am by Raelix
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