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#27 Apr 29 2010 at 4:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriously, what the f*ck is with people going off because they get told something they don't want to hear? Get the f*ck over it and use a Great Axe. If you want to use a Polearm level DRG.


i think its because war is supposed to be the master of all weapons but, due to game mechanics, they end up just being good at one (great axe), just like all the other jobs. not to say war can't put up good numbers with other weapon types, just that they get the best numbers with their best weapon. since wars job is to do the most dmg possible, the most logical thing to do would be use their best weapon.

the same people who get mad when asking which weapon to use are also usually the type who get mad when people say rdms should stay a back line job and not try to melee. its not that rdm can't melee, its that it is a support role and gets the most utility when using its support abilities and spells.
#28 Apr 29 2010 at 7:43 PM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
but of course i might be overlooking something.


You're overlooking Mighty Strikes. Penta isn't meant to crit. War can do 2.3k Pentas on DL with a 6 hit pole every ws.
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#29 Apr 29 2010 at 8:03 PM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
Strai wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
doctorugh wrote:
If well geared, its better on birds.


At which point you should probably have just leveled Dragoon.


A proper war pole build can smash the sh*t out of gaxe or dragoon on things like a DL zerg. I know that wasn't the point of your post but I thought I'd just mention.


let's see some math for this... on the face of it, your claim is obviously false. not parses, but reasoning/math please. SAM polearm zerg maybe, but not WAR. given that RR > penta, GA base damage > polearm, and drakesbane > penta, i don't see how in the world your claim could be true, but of course i might be overlooking something.


It's not a smash the sh*t out of Gaxe, but it is better for me.

For the numbers of it, I'll have to use me as a basis (Galka, crit 4/4, STR merits, pole 4/8, Gaxe 8/8, Zerk merits 5/5, DA merits 5/5 vs 81.5 birds (67 VIT,324.5 def w/ -0.325 lvl correction)
Haste,H.Samba,Marchx2,Hasso,Dia2 (def 293 avg) (I'm leaving off warcry from all setups, cuz it matters very little if I leave off of both sets)

Pole TP(squid): Gondo/Rose/Bombcore
Turban/Chiv/Fowling/Brutal
Hauberk+1/Dusk/Rajas/Flame
Foragers/Swift/B.Hiadate/Aurum

STR 80+5(hasso)+23 = 108 (D=11)
DEX 68+6(squid)+29 = 103 (Crit = 14%+6%Gondo=20%)
Att 248(skill)+8(base)+10(trait)+81(STR)+44(eq)= 391 (488)
Acc 243(skill)+10(hasso)+77(DEX)+28(eq) = 358x1.16(squid) = 415 (cap at 407)
Adjusted Hit rate including 25% zanshin = 96.1875%
Avg Ratio (zerk down, 20% crit) = 1.209
Avg Ratio (Zerk up, 20% crit) = 1.541
Adjusted Ratio for 72% Zerk up/28% down = 1.448

Avg TP Damage per WS round: 1.448 x 1.25(p) x (85+11) = 173.73 x 5 hits to WS = 868.63

Pole WS(penta w/squid): Gondo/Rose/Bombcore
Aurum/K.bead/Fowling/Brutal
Hauberk+1/Alky/Rajas/Flame
Foragers/Warwolf/B.Hiadate/Rutter

STR 80+5+46= 131 (D=17, 20% STR mod = 21)
DEX 68+6+29= 103 (20% DEX MOD = 16)
Att 248+8+10+98+48 = 412 (515 zerk)
Avg Ratio (zerkup/zerkdown) = 1.3342
Avg WS damage (includes 20% DA for first 2 hits): 5.44x1.3342x1.25(p)x0.95(acc) (85+17+21+16)= 1198.03

WS/melee round time(74%haste): (480/60)/0.9618(acc)/1.2(DA) x (284/1024)(haste) x 5(hits per round) +2 (ws animation) = 11.61 Seconds/Round

Damage per second (868.63+1198.03)/11.61 = 178.01

Perdu TP (meat mith): Perdu/Pole/Bombcore
Turban/Chiv/Fowling/Brutal
Hauberk+1/Dusk/Rajas/Uthalum
Foragers/Swift/B.Hiadate/Aurum

STR 80+5(meat)+5(hasso)+18 = 108 (D=11)
DEX 68+29 = 97 (Crit 12%)
ACC 282(skill)+10(hasso)+72(dex)+37(gear)= 401
Adjusted hit rate(includes aggr/zanshin/both levels of birds)= 95.73%
Att 292+8+10+81+58 = 449(+60good) (561+60 zerk+food)
Ratio (zerkdown,12% crit) = 1.532
Ratio (Zerkup,12% crit) = 1.914
Adjusted Ratio (zerkup/down) = 1.807
Avg melee damage per WS round: 1.807(96+11) = 193.4 x 5(hits) = 966.9

Perdu WS(KJ+meat): Perdu/Pole/Bombcore
Aurum/Soil/Fowling/Brutal
Hauberk+1/Alky/Rajas/Flame
Foragers/Warwolf/B.Hiadate/Aurum

STR 80+5+5+39 = 129 (D=16, 50% str mod = 53)
DEX 68+28=96
Acc 282+10+72+39 = 403 (94.6% adjusted for bird levels)
Att 292+8+10+96+58 = 464(+60) (580+60zerk)
Adjusted Ratio (zerkup/down) = 1.748
Avg WS damage(includes soil and 22% DA for first 2hits): 1.78 x 0.946(acc)x 3.54 (96+16+53) = 983.6

Time per melee/WS round: (504/60)/0.9573(acc)/1.22(DA) x (284/1024)haste x 5(hits per WS) +2 (WS animation) = 11.97s

Damage per second (983.6+966.9)/11.97 = 162.94


So thats what I come up with. I'm sure some tweaking could put perdu ahead, but this is the gear I have to work with. So about 9% better for Gondo over Perdu for me.

Sorry if it looks messy; I didnt do well in art class.







Edited, Apr 29th 2010 9:06pm by doctorugh
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#30 Apr 30 2010 at 7:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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doctorugh wrote:
milich wrote:
Strai wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
doctorugh wrote:
If well geared, its better on birds.


At which point you should probably have just leveled Dragoon.


A proper war pole build can smash the sh*t out of gaxe or dragoon on things like a DL zerg. I know that wasn't the point of your post but I thought I'd just mention.


let's see some math for this... on the face of it, your claim is obviously false. not parses, but reasoning/math please. SAM polearm zerg maybe, but not WAR. given that RR > penta, GA base damage > polearm, and drakesbane > penta, i don't see how in the world your claim could be true, but of course i might be overlooking something.


It's not a smash the sh*t out of Gaxe, but it is better for me.

For the numbers of it, I'll have to use me as a basis (Galka, crit 4/4, STR merits, pole 4/8, Gaxe 8/8, Zerk merits 5/5, DA merits 5/5 vs 81.5 birds (67 VIT,324.5 def w/ -0.325 lvl correction)
Haste,H.Samba,Marchx2,Hasso,Dia2 (def 293 avg) (I'm leaving off warcry from all setups, cuz it matters very little if I leave off of both sets)

Pole TP(squid): Gondo/Rose/Bombcore
Turban/Chiv/Fowling/Brutal
Hauberk+1/Dusk/Rajas/Flame
Foragers/Swift/B.Hiadate/Aurum

STR 80+5(hasso)+23 = 108 (D=11)
DEX 68+6(squid)+29 = 103 (Crit = 14%+6%Gondo=20%)
Att 248(skill)+8(base)+10(trait)+81(STR)+44(eq)= 391 (488)
Acc 243(skill)+10(hasso)+77(DEX)+28(eq) = 358x1.16(squid) = 415 (cap at 407)
Adjusted Hit rate including 25% zanshin = 96.1875%
Avg Ratio (zerk down, 20% crit) = 1.209
Avg Ratio (Zerk up, 20% crit) = 1.541
Adjusted Ratio for 72% Zerk up/28% down = 1.448

Avg TP Damage per WS round: 1.448 x 1.25(p) x (85+11) = 173.73 x 5 hits to WS = 868.63

Pole WS(penta w/squid): Gondo/Rose/Bombcore
Aurum/K.bead/Fowling/Brutal
Hauberk+1/Alky/Rajas/Flame
Foragers/Warwolf/B.Hiadate/Rutter

STR 80+5+46= 131 (D=17, 20% STR mod = 21)
DEX 68+6+29= 103 (20% DEX MOD = 16)
Att 248+8+10+98+48 = 412 (515 zerk)
Avg Ratio (zerkup/zerkdown) = 1.3342
Avg WS damage (includes 20% DA for first 2 hits): 5.44x1.3342x1.25(p)x0.95(acc) (85+17+21+16)= 1198.03

WS/melee round time(74%haste): (480/60)/0.9618(acc)/1.2(DA) x (284/1024)(haste) x 5(hits per round) +2 (ws animation) = 11.61 Seconds/Round

Damage per second (868.63+1198.03)/11.61 = 178.01

Perdu TP (meat mith): Perdu/Pole/Bombcore
Turban/Chiv/Fowling/Brutal
Hauberk+1/Dusk/Rajas/Uthalum
Foragers/Swift/B.Hiadate/Aurum

STR 80+5(meat)+5(hasso)+18 = 108 (D=11)
DEX 68+29 = 97 (Crit 12%)
ACC 282(skill)+10(hasso)+72(dex)+37(gear)= 401
Adjusted hit rate(includes aggr/zanshin/both levels of birds)= 95.73%
Att 292+8+10+81+58 = 449(+60good) (561+60 zerk+food)
Ratio (zerkdown,12% crit) = 1.532
Ratio (Zerkup,12% crit) = 1.914
Adjusted Ratio (zerkup/down) = 1.807
Avg melee damage per WS round: 1.807(96+11) = 193.4 x 5(hits) = 966.9

Perdu WS(KJ+meat): Perdu/Pole/Bombcore
Aurum/Soil/Fowling/Brutal
Hauberk+1/Alky/Rajas/Flame
Foragers/Warwolf/B.Hiadate/Aurum

STR 80+5+5+39 = 129 (D=16, 50% str mod = 53)
DEX 68+28=96
Acc 282+10+72+39 = 403 (94.6% adjusted for bird levels)
Att 292+8+10+96+58 = 464(+60) (580+60zerk)
Adjusted Ratio (zerkup/down) = 1.748
Avg WS damage(includes soil and 22% DA for first 2hits): 1.78 x 0.946(acc)x 3.54 (96+16+53) = 983.6

Time per melee/WS round: (504/60)/0.9573(acc)/1.22(DA) x (284/1024)haste x 5(hits per WS) +2 (WS animation) = 11.97s

Damage per second (983.6+966.9)/11.97 = 162.94


So thats what I come up with. I'm sure some tweaking could put perdu ahead, but this is the gear I have to work with. So about 9% better for Gondo over Perdu for me.

Sorry if it looks messy; I didnt do well in art class.







Edited, Apr 29th 2010 9:06pm by doctorugh


hey, that doesn't look like math for a DL zerg.

---

edit: in light of this topic, i was looking at penta and GA WSs on wiki. the penta page mentions the first hit of penta having an ATT penalty. i'm not thinking too hard about the data the person posted to support their theory, but it looks decent.

i wonder if SE implemented the ratio/cRatio/pDIF (whatever it is) bonuses on single hit WSs during the same update they raised the fTP of penta to 1.0 (i'm remember correctly that that happened, yes?). it would make sense that some WS unfortunately get a negative multiplier. any thoughts on this math/test people?

Edited, Apr 30th 2010 9:47pm by milich
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#31 Apr 30 2010 at 10:31 PM Rating: Good
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hey, that doesn't look like math for a DL zerg.


Aw, I thought you were refering to my comment on birds....oh well, wasted math....
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#32 May 01 2010 at 1:18 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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#33 May 02 2010 at 2:08 AM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
BiggHowie wrote:
im on bismarck
God f*cking damnit.


Lmao, why'd you come here again?
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#34 May 02 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
not really my choice. not paying 30 bucks to find another server. and again, if ur so confident and sh*t since ur on the same server since GA just destroys pole arm merit with me so i can parse and compare! ^^

oh, let me fix my post so u wont emo /wrist bout something that has no relevance



Edited, May 2nd 2010 3:07pm by BiggHowie
#35 May 02 2010 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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in light of this topic, i was looking at penta and GA WSs on wiki. the penta page mentions the first hit of penta having an ATT penalty


This is fairly interesting. I have anecdotally noticed lesser damage on Penta than the numbers I put above would indicate. Looking at some parses I've got on this, it might be as much as 20%.
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#36 May 02 2010 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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BiggHowie wrote:
and again, if ur so confident and sh*t since ur on the same server since GA just destroys pole arm merit with me so i can parse and compare!
No.

Mainly because I don't think that GA still kills polearm at birds, though. I just found the way you attempt to communicate incredibly annoying to read. Though I'm biased towards WAR polearm, as DRG is my main I have 8/8 polearm merits and no g.axe merits.
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#37 May 02 2010 at 1:12 PM Rating: Default
even with this attk penalty the last bird pt i parsed i had a penta avg of 1200+ and something like 90% acc using meat and completely destroyed a full usu pole sam and a GA war. my GA avg is nowhere remotely close to that

Edited, May 2nd 2010 3:13pm by BiggHowie
#38 May 03 2010 at 4:33 AM Rating: Good
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#39 May 03 2010 at 5:41 AM Rating: Good
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full usu pole sam


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#40 May 03 2010 at 7:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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But dude obviously using full usu on sam is a good idea. You get 5% extra haste! Who needs turban, haidate, or dusk gloves (+1).


Honestly half the comparisons being talked about can be completely negated by someone being more ambivalent about their engage time or WSing. My pup used to out parse most people before the latest update just because I promptly engaged and aligned myself, not that I was necessarily dealing more damage per round. Caring about the parse will essentially give you a 30% damage increase just from attitude.

Also note that a polearm war using sushi gains essentially no benefit from aggressor since they are basically capped in basic gear (haidate, swift, rajas, aurum), whereas a GA war could swap to askar, flame ring, attack earring, bomb core etc etc.

Polearm can work well, but I am finding it hard to believe that a weapon with ~100 less attack (skill/food) and ~11% less base damage would be hitting for nearly as hard as a GA with only 25% piercing bonus. It seems far more likely that silly choices like ulthalam's ring and fowling earring with no listed aggressor sets, along with a desire for polearm to succeed, is playing a significantly larger role.
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#41 May 03 2010 at 10:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Requim wrote:
Honestly half the comparisons being talked about every job vs job or weapon vs weapon damage comparison in the game can be completely negated by someone being more ambivalent about slow with their engage time or WSing.


fixed. this is why parsing with people to show things about weapons or jobs doesn't matter.
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#42 May 03 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
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Also note that a polearm war using sushi gains essentially no benefit from aggressor since they are basically capped in basic gear (haidate, swift, rajas, aurum), whereas a GA war could swap to askar, flame ring, attack earring, bomb core etc etc.


Why couldn't you also wear the aforementioned items on pole war with aggressor?


Quote:
silly choices like ulthalam's ring and fowling earring


What's wrong with these?

Edited, May 3rd 2010 4:02pm by doctorugh
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#43 May 03 2010 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
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Why couldn't you also wear the aforementioned items on pole war with aggressor?


Because once you exceed enough accuracy for 95% hit rate the added accuracy is a waste?

Basically in order to get to 82.5% hitrate with sushi means wearing 0 acc gear. Polearm + haidate/rajas/squid/hasso is 82% accuracy alone. If you're using swift belt, aurum boots, etc you've already overshot that range where you're fully benefiting.

Obviously if you're at 94% accuracy aggressor will help, but it's no where near as big of an improvement as another war *cough meat GA* capable of getting that full 25 accuracy out of it. Seeing as you can keep it up 60% of the time, that's pretty substantial.

Quote:
silly choices like ulthalam's ring and fowling earring

What's wrong with these?


Blitz ring will do you more good in a solid merit party. If you need accuracy sniper's+1/toreador's ring is better. If you don't need the accuracy use a flame ring. Thunder ring would be more helpful as a hybrid for a crit build. Ulthalam's, like woodsman and snipers, is just a cheap option as a bare minimum.

Assault earring should be giving you more benefit than fowling's because as I pointed out above, accuracy isn't really a concern for merit parties. If you need accuracy hollow would be a better choice. If you use spell cast you can make use of fenrir's earring. Fowling isn't bad per say, just that there are better options out there.

Note that accuracy isn't an issue because we're talking about polearm war. Typically this is only used against greater colibri, which aren't evasive OR in zergs where you have soul voiced madrigals and feint. Outside of those two situations (+that weakness limbus) there really isn't a standard for using polearm and therefore accuracy is not a serious concern.
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#44 May 03 2010 at 10:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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in light of this topic, i was looking at penta and GA WSs on wiki. the penta page mentions the first hit of penta having an ATT penalty


Did some limited testing on lesser colibri (avg fSTR=10.66, Ratio 288/235.66 (using def gear and defender)

With STR 94 (mod 14)and DEX 92(mod 14), that should have made an avg penta of 969.

5.4 x (.95) x (288/235.66) (85 + 10.66 + 14 + 14) x 1.25 = 969

I made sure to start fights with penta.

However, the actual average I came up with was 854. Basically a 13.4% (knowing SE prob 12.5%) attack penalty.

Edited, May 3rd 2010 11:01pm by doctorugh
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#45 May 04 2010 at 5:22 AM Rating: Good
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And here I came to this thread hoping to improve my pole.
Come to find out this is about poleARMS..... /sigh.
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#46 May 06 2010 at 6:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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People seem to be forgetting that he might just want to use polearm for the fun, in a casual meripo, knowing full well that Gaxe could be better.

I used to use swords, polearms, axes and gaxes in merit pts just to stop from going insane from the monotony of them. I'd only merit with friends, and they never minded if our exp/hr was maybe dropped by a couple of hundred if we were all keeping interested and happy. I'd argue that getting a fresh weapon out every now and then keeps you more focused in those 10 hour drags anyway.

But...he does...ask questions... like an idiot...
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#47 May 06 2010 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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Last time I was at birds in a merit party on WAR, I ended up needing to switch to g.axe just so I could lower my damage output so that the other DDs in the party could keep up and I wouldn't have to spend the entire time tanking as /SAM.
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#48 May 07 2010 at 5:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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That's because you're bsphil, The Polemaster.


edit: forgot to remove capitals...


Edited, May 7th 2010 11:41am by MojoVIII
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#49 May 07 2010 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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edit: forgot to remove capitals...
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#51 May 08 2010 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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Hay guys, I'm at a bowling alley on my one white day to say "ELLIPSES ELLIPSES ELLIPSES!"

Also, they took mah sniper rifle. Smiley: crymore
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