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Kirin issueFollow

#1 Apr 22 2010 at 7:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Did my first Kirin today, we won, but I walked away frusterated. My damage sucked. Please tell me what I did wrong:

Job: war/sam, fulltime hasso
Food: Coeurl Subs
Merits: 8/8 Great Axe, 4/4 Crit
WS: Raging Rush

I started out with this tp gear for the first half of the fight:
Erlking's Kheten (96 dmg, +7 attack, +1 double attack... first try too :D)
Pole Grip
Bomb Core
Chiv Chain
Fowling Earring
Assault Earring
2x Woodsman Ring
Forager's Mantle
Headlong Belt
Walahra Turban
Hauberk
Dusk Gloves
Barone Legs
Dusk Feet

This is the ws gear I used for the first half of the fight:
2x ruby rings
optical hat
potent belt
heroic feet (+2 str)
af hands


So, I was hitting Kirin for between zero and 120ish (crits). Average was about 50 damage when I didn't miss. But I missed a lot, and what's more, my ws was horrible. Best ws was 488 damage I think. Also, it's nearly impossible to do a kited fight in dusk (as I learned tonight). So then I thought, must be accuracy, so I just fulltimed this rig:

Erlking's Kheten
Pole Grip
Bomb Core
Optical Hat
Chiv Chain
Fowling Earring
Assault Earring
2x Woodsman Ring
Forager's Mantle
Life Belt
Hauberk
AF Hands
Barone Legs
Heroic feet


Still sucked.

Now, he did face me a few times, and even dropped what he was doing to kill me on two occasions. But still, my ws damage was horrible. Suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2010 10:49pm by Thydonon
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#2 Apr 23 2010 at 12:20 AM Rating: Good
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on a kited kirin with no buffs, everyone's damage is going to suck. kirin rapes your damage potential with level correction, so you need a ton of attack to do decent damage on him. like 2 minuets at least, preferably soul voiced.

people could give you obvious gear suggestions, but at the end of the day, they won't make as much of an improvement as you hope it will. so again, without buffs on a kited kirin, everyone's damage sucks.

although, as long as your LS uses the same strategy, don't bother with haste equips. acc and att are too valuable (at least until lv cap change).
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#3 Apr 23 2010 at 4:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, the issue is that your subbing samurai for a HNM like kirin. Unless you have nearly maxed gear and bards I wouldn't come with a multihit ws. You didn't mention food, you should have been using sushi. You need a really good build to support meat properly.

You should have subbed thf and SA+Steel Cyclone. All jobs really suck on kirin when it's kited and you have no buffs, do not feel bad. SA+SS is gonna net you prolly 600-1k with ur gear i'd say. That's where the majority of dmg comes from on a kited kirin is ws, that's why sam excel. Ranger as well, but because they can used ranged which is a different reason.

Also, grats on the Gaxe... thats what I was after except str instead of the DA to beat out perdu. Still haven't got a decent augment yet.
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#4 Apr 23 2010 at 5:09 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, going on a kite fight against kirin without someone to help buff you will really knock down your damage. If you can get into a party with a bard or corsair, that will help out a lot. I personally don't think /sam's a bad choice, but if you wanna do /thf to buff up your WS damage, knock yourself out.

A few suggestions since you asked for gear tips.
AF hands could be upgraded to tarasque mitts, adaman mufflers or warrior's mufflers if you're hurting on acc/att.
Heroic boots could be upgraded to Amir boots, and eventually the ideal would be Aurum Sabatons.
An eventual goal would be to get a PCC.

Some things that will help you out in the long run: see if you can get your LS to learn to straight tank Kirin. That doesn't mean you have to TP burn him (although that works fine too). My current LS usually has only about 20 members when we pop kirin, which isn't quite enough for a reliable TP burn of him. So we'll kite while we kill summons, then just straight tank him. Have 2-3 tanks that bounce between each other, DDs have a way easier time killing kirin, and the mages don't have to chase people around that big huge room.

And 2-3 bards/corsairs will help out a lot too.
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#5 Apr 23 2010 at 5:51 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks for all the replies, lemme see if I got this:

On a HNM fight:
1) come war/thf
2) gear straight acc > att > str and do NOT gear swap on ws
3) use only sneak attack + steel cyclone


Do I do steel cyclone at 100% tp or wait until 300%?
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#6 Apr 23 2010 at 6:19 AM Rating: Good
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Thydonon wrote:
Thanks for all the replies, lemme see if I got this:

On a HNM fight:
1) come war/thf
2) gear straight acc > att > str and do NOT gear swap on ws
3) use only sneak attack + steel cyclone


Do I do steel cyclone at 100% tp or wait until 300%?


1.) Yes.
2.) WHAT. Of course you gear swap. And yes gear for as much ACC as possible as hitting the mob is more important than whiffing faster.
3.) Basically, for Kirin. Mini-gods go nuts!
4.) Personally, I wait until 100% TP then SA+SC. Too much crap happens to be sitting on TP. Martial Bhuj is nice for this, but it's not worth the price for situational use.

Steel Cyclone's mods are 50% STR and 50% VIT, although the general rule of thumb is to prioritize STR first. VIT in spots where they come with STR or are in large quantities (Genbu's Bucket for example).

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#7 Apr 23 2010 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks, I actually realized that I should gear swap about four hours after I wrote this post. If you use Sneak Attack, you get a critical hit that cannot miss. I haven't used war/thf in forever.

So, go war/thf and eat Sole Sushi. TP in full accuracy gear, WS in full STR gear. Because of the high attack in a Steel Cyclone and the crit that comes with Sneak Attack, I do not need to stack Attack as a top priority, just use Attack to fill around ACC in tp gear and around STR in ws gear.

Is that correct? Or should I ignore attack altogether?

Thanks for the help on this, it's almost making sense. I think I'm just confused about attack and how it plays into this.
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#8 Apr 23 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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You pretty much got it with ur last post, that's about what you have to do. Mainly it's about getting tp as fast as possible to ws the real dmg.

Kirins evasion is really high so you should go all out on acc in tp gear. You can slowly take off an acc piece and see how well you hit with a little less if your using sushi, generally tho ur prolly gonna need all you can get. STR > VIT > ATK on SC ws /thf.

I REALLY reccomend that you recruit a few bards or cors to the ls for buffing, it helps ALOT. Straight tanking is also the way to go if your ls has the proper jobs and gear for it.
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#9 Apr 23 2010 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
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If possible, see if you can get a good parser, or have a friend help parse your accuracy. You may not need/want to use sushi. Consider marinara pizza and pizza +1 as those give pretty good amounts of accuracy (up to +40 accuracy at cap) while still giving you +attack and it's still pretty inexpensive.

From lurking on these forums, I have seen people say that Steel Cyclone has a set accuracy (please correct me if I'm wrong) so go ahead and swap your gear for SC. If you're going /thf and using SA to crit+guarantee a hit, then definitely swap in as much as you can.
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#10 Apr 23 2010 at 11:56 PM Rating: Decent
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2,890 posts
The first hit of any WS has 95% accuracy (actually its more like some insane +150 accuracy or some other boost) with all subsequent hits using regular accuracy. Since a 1-shot wonder WS like SC only has 1 hit and your SA'ing it, you can expect 100% accuracy with high pDiff.

Yeah for kited Kirin's just go /THF and SAWS whenever he stops to do something. Also keep flee on a macro handy ... I've pulled mad hate and to haul a$$ to not get squished.
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#11 Apr 24 2010 at 12:32 AM Rating: Default
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I'd /sam for a Kirin fight, kited or not. All /thf gets you is one hit every 60 seconds at +1 pDIF; the 100% hit is somewhat negated by the accuracy bonus on the first hit of Steel Cyclone. In a best case scenario this will get you about 25% more damage... that requires insanely low pDIF (one-ish), and getting TP every 60 seconds for use with SA. Subbing SAM is getting you a 6hit build (16.7% WS freqency), 10 accuracy all the time (which helps in TP damage and WS frequency), -10% delay (not that big a deal, since you are kiting and can't take advantage of it), and Meditate, which even gimped /sam is going to do a lot to negate the benefit of SA.

Eat Sushi if you have to, /sam, and try getting and/or using Hermes' Sandals to help you keep up with Kirin. Being in range will probably help you more than anything.
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#12 Apr 24 2010 at 8:09 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I'd /sam for a Kirin fight, kited or not. All /thf gets you is one hit every 60 seconds at +1 pDIF; the 100% hit is somewhat negated by the accuracy bonus on the first hit of Steel Cyclone. In a best case scenario this will get you about 25% more damage...


So, if my PDIF is at 1 and I add +1 to it from SA, then my total damage increase is 25%.

1 + 1 = 1.25, this must be that new math I've been hearing so much about.

If you meant to say that its a 25% damage increase overall (TP+every other WS); then please be more clear.
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#13 Apr 24 2010 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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You were using Raging Rush instead of Steel Cyclone. I'm not sure what kinds of buffs you were getting but apparently it wasn't much. Ruby rings on WS instead of acc rings (though if you were using Steel Cyclone that would have been a non-issue). You tried to TP in a haste setup in a kited fight (protip: haste loses all of its potential if you can't continuously hit the target), and worse yet, tried to use Dusk and apparently didn't swap out the dusk to run.

Your WAR overall is pretty entry level. I don't think you were prepared for how high of a level Kirin was and how nasty that makes his defense and evasion through level correction. I wouldn't use /THF, /SAM is fine. Just use Steel Cyclone unless you're getting proper buffs/debuffs. Marinara Pizza +1 is a good pick for kirin. If you get a bard he should be doing double minuets. You want to get up to at least ~750 attack to cap ratio with dia3 up.

By the by, this isn't entirely your issue either. Was a RDM keeping Dia III on the entire time? Because if nobody was, that's just asking for a painfully long fight. Even with fair attack, say 600, against Kirin, you can expect Dia III to improve that one DD's damage by ~40.7%, which is the same as adding about 106 attack. Increasing every melee's damage by that amount will drastically cut down on the length of the fight. With only 500 attack the boost is even more pronounced at a ~55.1% increase.



Edited, Apr 24th 2010 10:40am by bsphil
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#14 Apr 24 2010 at 10:38 AM Rating: Decent
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bsphill he specifically mentioned a kited fight, meaning 04 ~ 06 method of having Kirin chase a PLD (or two) around in a big circle. You spend most of your attack rounds with the message (your taget is too far away) as you chase him. You only get attack rounds off when Kirin stops to cast Stone or Stonega, sometimes your lucky and his TP moves take longer then usual and you get an extra swing in there. Bard buffs are out of the question cause nobody is stoping in one spot long enough for the BRD to sing buffs, same with COR rolls. The concept of 6 hit also doesn't work because you won't always be WSing at 100, sometimes you won't get a decent opportunity to WS (and not risk loosing TP) until you are 150 or more (its random).

ST fights are a bit different as melee's can stick in one spot long enough to actually deal damage. SA will nearly double the damage on SC but if Kirin isn't moving then you can hasso it up and employ different tactics. Of course in a ST fight your at the mercy of Stonega IV and your tanks will get their a$$ handed to them quickly.
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#15 Apr 24 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
If you meant to say that its a 25% damage increase overall (TP+every other WS); then please be more clear.


You obviously understood what I was saying, but yes, TP:WS split being ~50:50, best case going from 1.0 pDIF to 2.0 pDIF might double your WS damage. Happy?
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#16 Apr 24 2010 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Vs something IT I would agree ... vs Kirin .. not remotely close.

Kirin's level completely rapes your cRation, it practically puts you at hitting for 0's half the time when berserk isn't up. 17 level difference * .05 = -0.85 after cap. I believe Kirin has something like 420 or so defense (can't remember where it was estimated). 17 * -4 = -68 accuracy (or +68 evasion to monster) from level correction. And I have no clue what his VIT is but knowing SE something retarded. Dia III only plays into a zerg because of its very short duration. Level 1 is 30s, level 2 is 60s, nobody merits it over level 2 (most don't even go beyond level 1). A RDM will not be chasing down a HNM and casting a 45MP (41 as /SCH) spell every 30 ~ 60s during which time a melee ~might~ get a few hits off while they are chasing the same HNM. Cast it if your STing or zerging it, else wise don't bother.

At 700 attack (well buffed / fed / zerked WAR)
700/420 = 1.6 -0.85 = 0.81
Non buffed WAR using sushi (no zerg so counter his LCF evasion) is 500 or so attack.
500/420 = 1.19 -0.85 = 0.34 (your now hitting for 0's half the time).

Melee hits just don't do jack **** to Kirin, I've seen single digits before.

If your using SC your getting its x1.66 attack buff, this will put you at 2.2 pDiff cap without needing lots of attack.
500/420 = 1.19 * 1.66 = 1.975 (under cap) -0.85 = 1.12. SA will make it 2.12, 2.12/1.12 = 1.89 or a 89% increase in WS damage along with completely negating out the -68 accuracy penalty.

Assuming perfect scenario and you have enough attack to reach 2.2 cap on his 420 (approx) defense.
2.2 - 0.85 = 1.35, 2.35 (crit cap is 3.0) 2.35/1.35 = 1.74 or a 74% increase in WS damage along with negating the 68 accuracy penalty.

Damage on a kited Kirin is from WS not from melee hits, even on a ST Kirin the ~vast~ majority of your damage will be from WS's. Zergs are a bit difference as your SVing buffs with a three BRD rotation and trying to kill him before he has had a chance to kill you. In a zerg I'd use Dia III + Agnon for a combined 35% defense down, that translates into a 52.8% attack boost to everyone involved, of course his LCF still kicks you in the nuts.

tldr;
In a kited fight, /THF will do better then /SAM. In a ST fight its a coin toss depending on how many BRD's and COR's your ls can field. In a zerg you better be /SAM with an I.Wing and super buffed... else your prolly dead soon anyway.
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#17 Apr 24 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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saevellakshmi wrote:
bsphill he specifically mentioned a kited fight, meaning 04 ~ 06 method of having Kirin chase a PLD (or two) around in a big circle. You spend most of your attack rounds with the message (your taget is too far away) as you chase him. You only get attack rounds off when Kirin stops to cast Stone or Stonega, sometimes your lucky and his TP moves take longer then usual and you get an extra swing in there. Bard buffs are out of the question cause nobody is stoping in one spot long enough for the BRD to sing buffs, same with COR rolls. The concept of 6 hit also doesn't work because you won't always be WSing at 100, sometimes you won't get a decent opportunity to WS (and not risk loosing TP) until you are 150 or more (its random).
Well if you aren't a crappy BRD you can just reapply a minuet when it stops for a spell or someone pulls hate. It's not THAT bad. With some very basic gear you can get casting times down to ~5 seconds. If you really aren't a crappy BRD and have 5/5 night/troub like every BRD should, it's even easier.

Sky gods, despite what you might think, still give a roughly regular split of melee/WS damage. Only crappy DDs will have WS damage skewed higher.



Edited, Apr 24th 2010 3:24pm by bsphil
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#18 Apr 24 2010 at 3:19 PM Rating: Default
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So Shair manteel is now basic gear? Its 8s cast time BRD/WHM. Even down to 5s its still too long. Things don't happen in a vaccum, in a kited fight all the melee are not 3.5 distance the entire time, their staggered behind the guy depending on who's screen updated the quickest. And unless their using third party tools they have to stop to use JA's (animation forces them to), this includes Hasso / Meditate / Sneak Attack. The BRD would have to get to Kirin, start singing and hope it lands one everyone before Kirin takes off again. Its about as practical as having a RDM running behind Kirin Casting Dia III constantly. If the shell has the resources to do these things, they probably have the resources to ST Kirin after the spawns are dead.

Now onto a pet peeve of mine, lately I've been noticing this "Difficulty Creep" in that the supposed "acceptable methods / bar" is raised every six months to a year or so, usually by people who no longer play. This game isn't full of HQ 75 players walking around slaughtering Kirin's like its nothing. Not every shell has a few relic wielders and half a dozen BRD's on demand. Most shells (especially sky shells) were and still are just doing whatever they can do get by, using whatever resources they have. Their leaders don't say "hey we don't have enough BRD's and KC's so we can't do any Kirin's until we got those", instead they look at what they do got and figure out some method. The OP's shell is just such a shell, he was asking a way to maximize his contributions to the shell's attempt to kill a spawned Lv 92 HNM. The answer isn't "go find a new shell", or "go find these other jobs and don't attempt without them". You can't expect your melee to have Kitty pants for a Byakko fight... if you catch the drift.

And lastly ... this is Sky we're talking about. Any shell that ~would~ have the abilities to zerg down Kirin by having its members come something like WAR/SAM would no longer be ~doing~ Sky on any regular basis. Instead they'd be doing ground kings, ToAU HNM's, Dark Ixion and all those higher tier mega money loot HNMs.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#19 Apr 24 2010 at 9:10 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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saevellakshmi wrote:
So Shair manteel is now basic gear?
No, Yigit Gomlek and Minstrel's ring are. Though as a BRD75 I did buy a Sha'ir Manteel as part of my basic 75 gear.

saevellakshmi wrote:
Things don't happen in a vaccum, in a kited fight all the melee are not 3.5 distance the entire time, their staggered behind the guy depending on who's screen updated the quickest. And unless their using third party tools they have to stop to use JA's (animation forces them to), this includes Hasso / Meditate / Sneak Attack.
/equip "item" /ja "something" has always worked to skip the animation of JAs to allow you to run while using them.

saevellakshmi wrote:
The BRD would have to get to Kirin, start singing and hope it lands one everyone before Kirin takes off again.
Correct. I'm glad you understand.

saevellakshmi wrote:
Its about as practical as having a RDM running behind Kirin Casting Dia III constantly.
No, not even close, but yes having a RDM constantly hit Kirin with Dia III is a fantastic idea.

saevellakshmi wrote:
Now onto a pet peeve of mine, lately I've been noticing this "Difficulty Creep" in that the supposed "acceptable methods / bar" is raised every six months to a year or so, usually by people who no longer play. This game isn't full of HQ 75 players walking around slaughtering Kirin's like its nothing. Not every shell has a few relic wielders and half a dozen BRD's on demand. Most shells (especially sky shells) were and still are just doing whatever they can do get by, using whatever resources they have. Their leaders don't say "hey we don't have enough BRD's and KC's so we can't do any Kirin's until we got those", instead they look at what they do got and figure out some method. The OP's shell is just such a shell, he was asking a way to maximize his contributions to the shell's attempt to kill a spawned Lv 92 HNM. The answer isn't "go find a new shell", or "go find these other jobs and don't attempt without them". You can't expect your melee to have Kitty pants for a Byakko fight... if you catch the drift.
Okay...?

saevellakshmi wrote:
And lastly ... this is Sky we're talking about. Any shell that ~would~ have the abilities to zerg down Kirin by having its members come something like WAR/SAM would no longer be ~doing~ Sky on any regular basis. Instead they'd be doing ground kings, ToAU HNM's, Dark Ixion and all those higher tier mega money loot HNMs.
Not remotely true. And still I'm not talking about zerging Kirin, I'm talking about kited kirin fights.



Edited, Apr 24th 2010 10:18pm by bsphil
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