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#1 Apr 03 2010 at 11:04 PM Rating: Decent
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So I took a break for a few months from about Oct '09 to Jan '10. Since I've been back I haven't merited at all just been doing LS events and doing some subs for the upcoming cap increase.

So today I went out with a few LS members to merit on birds. We picked up a couple of random pick up guys. It was Brd, Rdm, Sam, War, War and Mnk (me). The Brd we has sang Att/Acc songs the entire time. I was the only one using food (mithkabobs) and wanted Att/Haste songs instead (I have the gear to support it).

After the pt was done and talking with the Brd (he's a friend of mine), he was saying that Att/Acc is the best way to go at birds. Now he's not an idiot and a really good player so this seemed really odd to me. Another really talented and well geared LS friend, who plays Sam, also says that Att/Acc are the best way to go as well. When I merit on my War, I would HATE to have Att/Acc songs over Att/Haste. It would literally be the biggest waste as a 2 hander.

Now I have Brd, Mnk, Nin, and War all leveled so I have a VERY good idea of what songs would be the most ideal. Before I took my break in Oct, Att/Haste was always the way to go. So my question is: Did something change to make Att/Acc more ideal at the bird camp?

Even in a pick up group, what songs do you guys usually ask the Brd to sing?
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#2 Apr 04 2010 at 12:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Using songs/rolls for accuracy is a waste, since you can get a larger relative increase in damage by using sushi/pizza for their respective benefits than you could by using accuracy buffs.

Along the same lines, any reasonably geared player is going to benefit more from 2x March than any other buffs... over about 14% gear Haste combined with Haste (spell) and March is going to win out. Double Marches with Haste and 15% gear Haste is ~15.4% increased DoT, which wins out over Valor Minuet at 66/.154 = 428 attack, which is pretty low when you consider Berserk and Dia II.

None of this takes time into account time, either. While more attack is typically going to equal more damage, it's often turned into overflow. That is, it doesn't always reduce the length of time you spend fighting a mob, it just increases the damage per hit. If a mob has 100 hp left over, and you do 200 damage, 100 of that is overflow. Haste always reduces the length of time a fight takes... if a mob has 100hp left, and you hit it for 100 damage 15% sooner than otherwise, you have increased your exp/hr by a significant amount. On average Haste is going to far outweigh attack.
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#3 Apr 04 2010 at 12:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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There is almost nothing better for any melee then double March's. Its a combined 20% haste, which is stacked with the Haste spell and gear haste. Your friend was misinformed.... majorly.
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#4 Apr 04 2010 at 1:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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since you posted this thread twice, i'll answer twice: haste/haste. i've done a lot of meriting on BRD, and if asked to sing something else, i would politely decline. also, DDs who don't use food = remember their names and don't invite them again (for me, at least). if you can't afford mithkabob and crab sushi spam, you should be farming, not meriting.
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#5 Apr 04 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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This.
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#6 Apr 05 2010 at 6:34 AM Rating: Good
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Haste/Haste is the top choice.

Acc can be worth it if you have plenty of dual wielder that have trouble getting to the hit cap. Even then, Haste/acc is the top choice.

Atk lost a lot of its worth a few updates ago, where maximum pDif was capped at 2.0. Now if you ever have over 606 attack on birds you have too much and you are wasting attack.
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#7 Apr 05 2010 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Now if you ever have over 606 attack on birds you have too much and you are wasting attack.


327*2.2 = 719 w/ no debuffs

(327*.9)*2.2 = 647 w/ Dia II

(327*.85)*2.2 = 611 w/ Dia III or w/ Dia II & Box Step

(327*.8)*2.2 = 575 w/ Dia III & Box Step

Easy way to optimize your gear if you have the same group all the time. A group with a COR doing Chaos Roll will need either Dia III or Dia II w/ Box Step to consistently cap attack sans food. With food you can get away with just Chaos Roll and Dia II.

edit - Oops, good catch. Good thing I merit on COR.

Edited, Apr 5th 2010 12:24pm by TybudX
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Dooom wrote:
BG elitists <3 haste.

Allatards/uber casuals hate elitists.

Allatards/uber casuals hate haste, as valuing it would acknowledge that elitists are right


kerberoz wrote:
People don't hate emo kids because they're "misunderstood." People hate emo kids because they're useless.


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PUP is an average to above average DD... when not in a zerg situation... or on particularly hard targets... and when properly configured... on windsday... with a RDM...
#8 Apr 05 2010 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
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TybudX wrote:
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Now if you ever have over 606 attack on birds you have too much and you are wasting attack.


327*2 = 654 w/ no debuffs

(327*.9)*2 = 588 w/ Dia II

(327*.85)*2 = 555 w/ Dia III or w/ Dia II & Box Step

(327*.8)*2 = 523 w/ Dia III & Box Step

Easy way to optimize your gear if you have the same group all the time. Also means that any group with a COR doing Chaos Roll and a healer who consistently casts Dia II is going to be attack capped almost all of the time.


Lets assume we are using a Gaxe. 2.2 Ratio instead of 2 (720 attack with no debuffs)

Edited, Apr 5th 2010 1:03pm by doctorugh
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#9 Apr 05 2010 at 5:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheKhory wrote:
Haste/Haste is the top choice.

Acc can be worth it if you have plenty of dual wielder that have trouble getting to the hit cap. Even then, Haste/acc is the top choice.

Atk lost a lot of its worth a few updates ago, where maximum pDif was capped at 2.0. Now if you ever have over 606 attack on birds you have too much and you are wasting attack.


say you have 15% gear haste, hasso, and spell haste, so 40%. let's say v.march is 11% haste. that's 22.5% DoT. assuming madrigal is ACC+34, it beats 11% haste if ACC is around 75%~ (if it's ACC+30, that drops to 66%~). obviously, if melees have below 80%ACC, that's a problem and needs to be solved by gear and sushi.

but since haste has increasing returns, the latter 9% haste from march1 actually adds 22.5%~ DoT as well. so if march2 beat ACC in the first place, so does march1. further, both spells together constitute a 50% DoT increase (more than 22.5% + 22.5%, of course, again because of increasing returns). mad2 + min4 won't get you that. starting with 400ATT vs a lv82 colibri without dia on it, and getting the max attack from min4--66--only gives about a 23% *melee* DoT increase, so it obviously loses to haste since it doesn't even give you more TP.

so 1 march on its own beats mad and min with modest haste gear even in situations that favor ACC and ATT. but if 1 march beats the competitors, the 2nd must too, because the 2nd does just as much or more as the first. further, both together represent a larger increase than either does on its own, so all the more you should sing 2 marches instead of 1.

march/march is what you should sing in merits if you don't have a party of all RNGs. lots of non-2handers isn't the exception. weak melees isn't the exception. killing too fast is definitely not the exception. *there is no exception* as long as TP and damage is coming from melee attacks.

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edit: way back in the day, i used to criticize black belt monks (before i had black belt) for going all out on haste when they didn't have enough ACC and ATT. i would routinely outparse these monks. however, the reason for the outparsing is probably that the BRD wouldn't be singing 2x march like they should have been, and the monks with whom i was partying would engage/target lazily, fail to WS at 100%TP, and fail to tailor their WS macro (and TP, besides the haste) to maximizing damage. i was still wrong when i criticized their haste whoring. haste is the god stat. you want more and more of it. there are very few exceptions (some PUP gear choices are/were exceptions b/c of their low skill and base damage).

Edited, Apr 5th 2010 7:12pm by milich
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