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Pixie Earring for Ridill/JoyeuseFollow

#27 May 18 2009 at 3:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Master of weapons is such an antiquated notion it's a joke now.

As for /Nin again I didn't say it didn't have it's uses but the fact is Great Axe just does more damage. If you go fight certain NMs like Hydra you'll get destroyed if you're not /Nin so yes it has it's place I never said it didn't. You're really making mountains out of mole hills.

An Axe/Ridill build can do ok but you lose out on your maximum damage potential because you have to merit Axe/Sword. As for you never being out damaged Axe/Sword vs a GAX /Nin odds are you weren't up against people with similar gear or merits. The huge boost to acc/att from using a 2-hander is no joke. Ridill seems awesome because it's so rare but it's really not anything that special anymore. Ask any of the 4 Wars in my LS that have both and they'll tell you they parse better War/Nin using Perdu. They didn't even have to re-merit to notice the difference (though +16 skill helps a lot.)

As for a lot better survivability that's not quite true. In certain situations yes /Nin has it's advantages but in most situations seigan + third eye properly used is awesome. Third eye won't get wiped out by most magical based AoEs and also if you save in merit timing it well rushing drub, vorpal blade, pecking flurry, etc. are a joke. If you're solo tanking sure /Nin is better but then your damage is going to be hurt yet again by spending time casting ichi.


Edited, May 18th 2009 4:54am by OrsonBastokChampion
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#28 May 18 2009 at 4:56 AM Rating: Decent
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OrsonBastokChampion wrote:
Master of weapons is such an antiquated notion it's a joke now.

As for /Nin again I didn't say it didn't have it's uses but the fact is Great Axe just does more damage. If you go fight certain NMs like Hydra you'll get destroyed if you're not /Nin so yes it has it's place I never said it didn't. You're really making mountains out of mole hills.

An Axe/Ridill build can do ok but you lose out on your maximum damage potential because you have to merit Axe/Sword.


That's why I merited 8 Sword and 8 Great Axe.

OrsonBastokChampion wrote:
As for you never being out damaged Axe/Sword vs a GAX /Nin odds are you weren't up against people with similar gear or merits. The huge boost to acc/att from using a 2-hander is no joke. Ridill seems awesome because it's so rare but it's really not anything that special anymore. Ask any of the 4 Wars in my LS that have both and they'll tell you they parse better War/Nin using Perdu.


This is total rubbish. The WARs in your LS just suck.

Edited, May 18th 2009 8:58am by TheSecretOfHorutoto
#29 May 18 2009 at 7:47 AM Rating: Default
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No they don't suck, they are some of the best wars on my server. You're disillusioning yourself, the difference might not be big but GAX almost always has a slight edge now. You're talking about using Ridill/Joyeuse over GAX that's on average a net loss of about 50 acc and att you really think that the extra swings (which diminish DA) and the dual wield bonus is going to make up for that? I'm telling you that you're the one who's fooling yourself trying to justify Ridill being better than it is. Colibri's be about the only place I'd toy with the idea of using Ridill/Joytoy and then you'd still have to use sushi or marinara pizza.


Edited, May 18th 2009 8:57am by OrsonBastokChampion
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#30 May 18 2009 at 9:37 AM Rating: Good
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OrsonBastokChampion wrote:
No they don't suck, they are some of the best wars on my server. You're disillusioning yourself, the difference might not be big but GAX almost always has a slight edge now. You're talking about using Ridill/Joyeuse over GAX that's on average a net loss of about 50 acc and att you really think that the extra swings (which diminish DA) and the dual wield bonus is going to make up for that? I'm telling you that you're the one who's fooling yourself trying to justify Ridill being better than it is. Colibri's be about the only place I'd toy with the idea of using Ridill/Joytoy and then you'd still have to use sushi or marinara pizza.


Edited, May 18th 2009 8:57am by OrsonBastokChampion


A correctly merited axe/sword or sword/sword war shouldn't need to resort to sushi on colibri, don't talk out of your ***.


Edited, May 18th 2009 5:44pm by Demonviper
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#31 May 18 2009 at 10:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not to mention man/ramming the **** out of stuff and tearing it a new one.
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#32 May 18 2009 at 10:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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A correctly merited axe/sword or sword/sword war shouldn't need to resort to sushi on colibri, don't talk out of your ***.


Maybe not, but let's not fool anyone into thinking that merits alone are going to make up for the ACC you lose by going from GA to sword...
#33 May 18 2009 at 11:12 AM Rating: Excellent
Really guys do we need to argue aboutnegligable %s in damage difference between builds?

Sh*ts situational if you have a Ridill/Joy enjoy it dont get caught up in max/mining in a situations where either will work well. If your merited for Swordchucks why not break them out every once and a while. Sheesh
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#34 May 18 2009 at 11:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe not, but let's not fool anyone into thinking that merits alone are going to make up for the ACC you lose by going from GA to sword...


With full sword merits and suppa you sit at 271 skill vs. 292 skill of fully merited GA. That's a difference of 21 skill or 18.9 acc if you assume .9 acc per skill point after 200. (also let's not forget fortitude torque +7 skill)

If you have sword chucks it's pretty advisable to merit bergressor 5/5 so with aggressor up every 3:00 out of 4:10 which is a flat +25 acc boost the acc loss, while not negligible is certainly not THAT huge of a gap, especially for colibri which is what demonviper was referring to.

I suppose you could debate about GA having agressor up as well would make the difference but not really much so on colibri because with agressor up and assuming you're not geared like a moron you should be pretty near acc cap if not already at it.

tl:dr
Merits make all the difference. Especially for Dual-Wield.
(at least on lolcolibri which don't really count. HNM are a totally different discussion)

Edited, May 19th 2009 6:10am by Dynas
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#35 May 18 2009 at 11:20 AM Rating: Default
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A correctly merited axe/sword or sword/sword war shouldn't need to resort to sushi on colibri, don't talk out of your ***.


I'm not talking out my ***. There's no way even with max merits you'll be anywhere near the acc cap with a B ranked, 1-hander weapon. You're freaking retarded if you think you can.

P.S. Dynas you're also forgetting the acc bonus from dex that a 2-hander weapon gets. Sitting there saying that 1-handers get suppa is irrelevant because a 2-hander build gets brutal earring or can equip another acc/att earring.


Edited, May 18th 2009 12:25pm by OrsonBastokChampion
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#36 May 18 2009 at 11:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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I thought it was generally accepted that as long as you were at ~85% acc eating meat was perfectly acceptable? You don't need to cap your acc to perform well.
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#37 May 18 2009 at 11:29 AM Rating: Default
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Show me a parse of 85% acc with Ridill/Joytoy without sushi or marinara pizza. I don't think you'll hit that high without a huge amount of acc gear sacrificing haste or att.
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#38 May 18 2009 at 11:35 AM Rating: Excellent
I believe this is the Kenage symbol?
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#39 May 18 2009 at 12:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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you guys are both a good bit off. One of you is overestimating the power of ridill, the other is underestimating a solid sword-chuck build.

You can't really say "Gaxe vs Swordchucks with similar gear" since there are some obvious pieces (suppa) and some not so obvious things that an optimum set will account for.

The optimum swordchucks build (including merits) will likely outdo most great axes in terms of DoT. However, Optimum gaxe with Perdu or better will out pace swordchucks most of the time. Furthermore, great axe will almost always be better for anything outside of merits, because of endgame mobs defense and evasion, and the 2h stat bonus.
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#40 May 18 2009 at 12:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Now I'm no top notch mathematician and all but I am a thinker. With this setup you should be able to pull off meat fine on colibri:

Ridill/joy
Fire Bomblet
Askar Head
Fort. Torque/PCC
Suppa/Assault
Haubergeon
Askar Hands
Woodsman x2
Amemet +1
Swift Belt
Byakko's Haidate
Aurum Sabatons

Granted it's not your average AH setup but honestly if you have a Ridill/Joy combo I pray to god you have at least something close to this. Didn't include E.Body or +1's here either.

Set has 101 DEX, 43-46 acc depending on neck choice, and 17% haste vs. a level 82 mob with 337 EVA. Total acc is aruond 385.3 with Aggressor up which brings you to 85.1% acc against colibri.

Full disclosure: when Aggressor is down with this setup you drop down to around 72.6% acc, but that's why you fully merit Bergressor with swordchuck builds.

Basically all you need is about 50 acc points above the mob's evasion to get a decent hit rate. Now obviously with better gear like sniper +1's and E. Body will make this setup that much more ridiculous.

All I'm saying is it's possible.

Edited, May 18th 2009 3:21pm by Dynas
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#41 May 18 2009 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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With full sword merits and suppa you sit at 271 skill vs. 292 skill of fully merited GA. That's a difference of 21 skill or 18.9 acc if you assume .9 acc per skill point. (also let's not forget fortitude torque +7 skill)


You're mentioning Suppa and torque though... that's not merits. That's part of why I pointed out that merits alone are not going to bridge the gap.


Quote:
P.S. Dynas you're also forgetting the acc bonus from dex that a 2-hander weapon gets. Sitting there saying that 1-handers get suppa is irrelevant because a 2-hander build gets brutal earring or can equip another acc/att earring.


There's that too. There's also Hasso if you're using /SAM for your GA, whether you're able to fulltime it or at least keep it up partially.

Edited, May 18th 2009 4:34pm by Fynlar
#42 May 18 2009 at 12:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't see how I'm underestimating it, ya under the best of conditions you can do well with a Ridill. It's not low tier damage in the overall scheme of things. I've seen the results of Ridill builds vs GAX builds though and in most situations GAX comes out on top even with /Nin. Also you need to change maybe 3-4 pieces of gear for ridill vs. GAX so to say the builds are radically different wouldn't be quite accurate.

The main thing is though you shouldn't really use /Nin much. The only time you'll ever have use /Nin is on the rare HNM like Hydra or other rare fights. /Sam is more useful, has slightly lower damage mitigation, and yields far higher damage in most situations. So going after a Ridill build is really something more for fun if you get bored of GAX and /Sam. If you fall into that category then it boils down to, your time, your call.

Edited, May 18th 2009 1:48pm by OrsonBastokChampion
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#43 May 18 2009 at 12:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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You're mentioning Suppa and torque though... that's not merits. That's part of why I pointed out that merits alone are not going to bridge the gap.


Ah touche' batman. But honestly you should never even think of dual-wielding a sword without a suppa, suppa is automatically assumed. And honestly Fyn there's no debate that it's easier to pull off GA with better acc and efficiency that's not the point.

The point is that you can pull off multiple weapon types while correctly gearing and meriting yourself.

Lastly, I remember reading somewhere that Ridill (Joyeuse does) doesn't benefit from Brutal earring as much in a TP set since it takes away from it's triple attack procs and puts the bonus into the double attack procs. Don't quote me on that though.

Edited, May 18th 2009 3:54pm by Dynas
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#44 May 18 2009 at 12:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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The main thing is though you shouldn't really use /Nin much. The only time you'll ever have use /Nin is on the rare HNM like Hydra or other rare fights. /Sam is more useful, has slightly lower damage mitigation, and yields far higher damage in most situations. So going after a Ridill build is really something more for fun if you get bored of GAX and /Sam. If you fall into that category then it boils down to, your time, your call.


IDK what kind of awesome random pickup groups you're getting into but the only time I ever war/sam anymore is with my LS whom I've known for awhile now.

Reason why /nin is advocated strongly is because of all the random bullcrap/idiocy everyone encounters with random pickup groups is made much safer and reliable with shadows. Plus you save on oils/powder buying, with the ninja counterparts :P

Going /nin doesn't mean you can't equip a GA.


Edited, May 18th 2009 3:52pm by Dynas
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Kaolian is become death; destroyer of all fun and good times.

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#45 May 18 2009 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Rukeshin proved a while back that Ridill still benefits from Brutal and regular DA. I think it was based on the fact Ridill attacks rates are something like 1 attack 40% 2 attack 35% 3 attack 25%. Obviously it's diminished but you'll still receive DA bonus to Ridill because it was found that Ridill is not 1-33%/2-33%/3-33% like prior thought.

Aye, /Sam can be a bit unreliable unless you have everyone going /Sam and have a decent group. Usually I don't party with strangers to be honest. In most pick up parties I end up having the mob glued to me because a lot of people just aren't as well geared and merited as myself. The rule of thumb for merits for me is have the party pick either /Nin or /Sam for everyone to use.

Edited, May 18th 2009 2:04pm by OrsonBastokChampion
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#46 May 18 2009 at 12:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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DA vs. DW debate is always
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#47 May 18 2009 at 11:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm pretty sure the most important thing here is that Pixie Earring doesn't sound manly enough. Pretty sure.
#48 May 19 2009 at 2:01 AM Rating: Excellent
I wanted to quote something that made me laugh in this thread but there were too many things.

From the ken signal that gets me every time, to man-ramming (use protection), to the pixe earring comment by sigue...

Oh, and by my math it doesn't matter what percentages your SA DA and TA are at, if brutal takes from both SA and TA procs evenly it will add NOTHING to your ridill. If he proved that it just takes from SAs then that's great (I'd like to see that proof), but even still it's greatly diminished benefits compared to using brutal on gaxe.

Of course I demand a ridill and a brutal earring immediately to test this myself.
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#49 May 19 2009 at 4:13 AM Rating: Decent
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I've been working on a Drk zerging spreadsheet to compare stuff like weapon vs weapon,
haste vs HP vs DA/TA vs Acc.

I'm almost done, but I can't figure out how to apply DA/TA to multi-hit weapons.
The best info I could find was this:
www32.atwiki.jp/studiogobli/pages/17.html
Quote:
* As for attack frequency occurrence ratio of [rideiru] 30: 50: With 20 average 1.90 attacks
o With DA probability 10% 1.91 times, with DA probability 20% 1.92 times


* As for attack frequency occurrence ratio of [jiyuwayusu] 50: With 50 average 1.50 attacks
o With DA probability 10% 1.55 times, with DA probability 20% 1.60 times


* As for attack frequency occurrence ratio of [kurakenkurabu] 5: 15: 25: 25: 15: 10: 3: Whether even average 3.82 attacks of 2 the [do] [tsu] you saw
o Therefore DA probability it rises with getting near to 2.00, frequency of attack it decreases
The 1st part was good info, stuff that do 1-3 has have a 30:50:20 ratio, and an avrg of 1.9 that needs 10% DA to add a 0.01 to it.



It was actually Studio Gobli that did the initial testing but the fact is DA does help Ridill be it at a diminished rate like I said.

Edit: Those that don't know or didn't figure it out rideiru is Japanese for ridill.

Edited, May 19th 2009 5:16am by OrsonBastokChampion
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#50 May 19 2009 at 4:50 AM Rating: Excellent
But 10%DA adds 0.01 attacks per round??
it says from 1.91 attacks per round to 1.92...

So adding the 5% of Brutal will net you a grand total 1.925/1.92 = 0.5% attack increase... Not that great.
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#51 May 19 2009 at 5:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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The best part of this thread was the kenage call. Close 2nd, watching mojo's name change as I scroll down the page.. Here's one you haven't tried yet:

Don Qixote de la Mojo Ocho

Edit: Fixd

Edited, May 19th 2009 9:36am by DodiOnMidgard
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