Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

War Tank/DD in Salvage?Follow

#1 May 13 2009 at 1:17 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
****
4,864 posts
Background:
I run a salvage group and we typically have been taking 2 MNK, MNK + SAM, or 2 MNK + a SAM, in addition to our Brd, Rdm, Thf, Blu and sometimes a WHM or BLM.

Last night we only 6 on, and I'm usually our Thf and our normal MNK and SAM were absent, so we went SAM + WAR tank with no Thf.

This setup worked surprisingly well - actually better damage mitigation than we have ever had in any Salvage run so far, but I don't wanted to get overjoyed from one experience.

Has anyone else dual-tanked as Warrior in Salvage so far? If so, how did it work out on the MB?
____________________________
Carbuncle


#2 May 13 2009 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
*
52 posts
I myself was the SAM in a SAM + WAR tanking duo for nearly 200 runs.
The majority of which were successful.

It's a combo that works well, from my experience.
While I wouldn't say that the MNKs I occasionally tanked with were masters of their jobs, I ALWAYS preferred my WAR compatriot :P

Meh, don't know if I answered your question, just thought I should compound the statement that WAR and SAM aren't tanks to be sniffed at simply because they're not MNKs.

Anyway, good luck in the future :D

Edit:
Thought I should just mention our normal set up. Worked **** near every time ^.~
WAR
SAM
BRD
RDM
WHM
DRG
THF

Edited, May 13th 2009 5:36pm by Monkiwastaken
____________________________
Monki~Cerberus
SAM75-MNK75
TP|WS
Linkshell:TeleTubbies
#3 May 13 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
986 posts
I've duo tanked LAC and Armored Chariot, haven't tried discoid chariot and failed hard on LBC. Usually pinch in if one of the mnks go down.

Sometimes I think the chariots have slashing resist / blunt weakness. >.> At least LBC. It's odd, I failed hard at getting hate, when in merit parties sky, I almost always put out more dmg than mnks. (even the LS leader's mnk who I tanked with) The mnks per-hit and my per-hit weren't far apart (at least not enough considering mnk's attack rate). Anyways, LBC sucks for any job to tank pretty much.

On the boss chariots it's usually not that bad, usually quite manageable. I'd say MNK or even SAM would be a better chariot tank than WAR IMO. But it's pretty easily substituteable.
____________________________
Eltio - Bastokan Galka of Hades Server
lvl 75 {dirty}

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Tokitoki wrote:
Is Pikko secretly Eltio?
#4 May 13 2009 at 8:07 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
****
4,884 posts
The only experience I can offer from tanking chariots is from doing so in Nyzul. I know those aren't nearly as hard as in Salvage, but they still suck.

Personally I hate tanking them. But Ive never really seen how much dmg a mnk actually takes from them. Counterstance is usually enough to fall backon that it allows MNK to get shadows up much easier than WAR can. I won't say war can work better than mnk, I somehow don't see that being possible. Maybe someone can explain why that would be the case.

However, wars can cap gear haste just like mnks but... i really don't know what I'm saying.
____________________________
Want to know what I am listening to? Click here for my Zune Profile!
lolgaxe wrote:
Lucinus wrote:
WARs do what they do best.

Provoke the foe and break it in half.
Coincidentally, that's how I met my wife.
#5 May 14 2009 at 12:21 AM Rating: Good
**
359 posts
War/Sam is actually really good for shared tanking. Our LS groups have always done Sam + War or Mnk + War. Seigan + Third Eye mitigates very well against the chariots because it doesn't get wiped by all the AoE WSs that they spam. Granted any high damage DD could probably tank a chariot. The key to fighting chariots is very support and usually being to being able to do a lot of damage.

Reality is chariots are dangerous if not handled correctly but you can really make them into pathetic bosses where you're more fighting the clock than anything else. Regular debuffs, penance, and the newly added auspice it's awesome they hardly WS at all during the first 75%.
____________________________
"Now! This is it! NOW is the time to choose. Die, and be free of pain; or LIVE, and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories. Your fate is in your hands!"
- Auron

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?92889
#6 May 14 2009 at 10:47 AM Rating: Excellent
**
503 posts
Can WAR work as a salvage tank? Yes. Should you use WAR if you have access to a MNK? Assuming player skill and gear quality are similar, no.

Sorry to all the WARs... I have WAR and MNK, both very well geared, and I love playing both jobs... but there's no way anything that WAR has can match the usefulness of Counterstance in Salvage.

If you're comparing, say, a very well-geared and skilled WAR with a fresh-75 MNK in a SH and strike subligar who thinks kick attacks gear will beat full Usu, then yeah choose the WAR.

Your better damage mitigation was very likely caused by people being more cautious and careful than usual. For NM farming pretty much any job setup works... but I can't see any job beating MNK on simultaneous tanking + DD ability on things like chariots.
#7 May 14 2009 at 2:35 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
KaiaPhoenix wrote:
Can WAR work as a salvage tank? Yes. Should you use WAR if you have access to a MNK? Assuming player skill and gear quality are similar, no.

Sorry to all the WARs... I have WAR and MNK, both very well geared, and I love playing both jobs... but there's no way anything that WAR has can match the usefulness of Counterstance in Salvage.

If you're comparing, say, a very well-geared and skilled WAR with a fresh-75 MNK in a SH and strike subligar who thinks kick attacks gear will beat full Usu, then yeah choose the WAR.

Your better damage mitigation was very likely caused by people being more cautious and careful than usual. For NM farming pretty much any job setup works... but I can't see any job beating MNK on simultaneous tanking + DD ability on things like chariots.


vs a mob with ATT so high counterstance has almost no damage penalty, there's just no way at all something can be more useful than 40%-50%~ counter rate (w/ cs up and 5 merits, rate is ACC%*.5, and ACC%*.6 if you had melee gaiters on when you used cs). add that MNKs have chakra and (generally) more haste and (always) more subtle blow, there's no room for argument. as for DD and epeen, that's for another thread.

____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#8 May 14 2009 at 11:18 PM Rating: Good
**
359 posts
I think you're seriously underestimating how much damage War/Sam or Sam/War does to the chariot bosses. You're saying similarly geared so assuming the mnk and the other DD has top notch gear they're going to be very close. Mnks main advantage is being a little bit easier to defend and obviously subtle blow but if you go /War you can't really counterstance and /Nin you spend a lot of time using Utsesumi: Ichi at 4 seconds a cast that does slow your damage. Seigan + Third Eye are not taken out by chariot WS. Sam/War and War/Sam also have Voke to bounce hate a bit easier. Also now because of auspice TP gain isn't a huge issue either that's not really an issue at all. The other be advantage War or Sam has as well is if you're in a rush and need to kill the chariot boss fast their 2hrs are much safer. Using HF on certain chariots is asking for special move spam. Chakra is nice but really you use it what like 3-4 times during a fight? If War and Sam are similarly geared to Mnk then how can you say that Mnks generally have more haste? That's a big contradiction, average haste gear being Mnks w.turban, brown belt, b.haidate, and fuma 21% vs. War w.turban, swift belt, dusk gloves, b.haidate, and aurum/dusk/unicorn boots 19-20%? Let’s not get into the difference of att/acc.

Personally I find it's less of a performance issue and more just what you're comfortable with. Wars, Sams, and Mnks are all really good and if you aren't well geared and merited you're just going to suck no matter what job. I realize salvage is the only place mnk really gets to shine in the spotlight but having other jobs sharing that spotlight doesn't hurt Mnk really.
____________________________
"Now! This is it! NOW is the time to choose. Die, and be free of pain; or LIVE, and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories. Your fate is in your hands!"
- Auron

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?92889
#9 May 15 2009 at 3:15 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
1,500 posts
I have tried with both just with War in salvage, I found it like a fine tank until I had the chance to go inside with a Mnk.

Counterstance, Subtle Blow and the fact that they push Charriots %Hit below the cap(aka the actually evade), make them preferred tanks for salvage, w/o even mention that they don't sacrifice 1 inch of DD potential.

Being said that, a better than average War can perform decently, and if you have an enmity set for voke you can even hold more hate over the fight.

Sincerely.

Ken.
____________________________
"Maybe it means: you're the evil man, and I'm the righteous man, and Mr. Nine-millimeter here, he's the shepherd protecting my righteous **** in the Valley of Darkness." - Jules.
FFXIV: Mabel Rand (Gugnir)
FFXI: Kenage, retired.
K&K forever!,
#10 May 15 2009 at 5:10 AM Rating: Good
**
389 posts
KaiaPhoenix wrote:
Can WAR work as a salvage tank? Yes. Should you use WAR if you have access to a MNK? Assuming player skill and gear quality are similar, no.

Sorry to all the WARs... I have WAR and MNK, both very well geared, and I love playing both jobs... but there's no way anything that WAR has can match the usefulness of Counterstance in Salvage.


This is true. WAR/SAM is fairly good for co-tanking, but Third Eye is a fickle bastard. There are those times when you will have it down on first hit, and then you get double attacked and a tp move. At MNK has counterstance to fall back on, and has more hps to survive a oh **** moment.

SAM/WAR is as good as WAR/SAM on tanking. It has more evasion, but evasion means nothing on salvage. Especially on a hauby.

What i see is: WAR and SAM can tank equally well on salvage. Both fall short of MNK.
#11 May 15 2009 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
****
4,884 posts
OrsonBastokChampion wrote:
I think you're seriously underestimating how much damage War/Sam or Sam/War does to the chariot bosses. You're saying similarly geared so assuming the mnk and the other DD has top notch gear they're going to be very close. Mnks main advantage is being a little bit easier to defend and obviously subtle blow but if you go /War you can't really counterstance and /Nin you spend a lot of time using Utsesumi: Ichi at 4 seconds a cast that does slow your damage. Seigan + Third Eye are not taken out by chariot WS. Sam/War and War/Sam also have Voke to bounce hate a bit easier. Also now because of auspice TP gain isn't a huge issue either that's not really an issue at all. The other be advantage War or Sam has as well is if you're in a rush and need to kill the chariot boss fast their 2hrs are much safer. Using HF on certain chariots is asking for special move spam. Chakra is nice but really you use it what like 3-4 times during a fight? If War and Sam are similarly geared to Mnk then how can you say that Mnks generally have more haste? That's a big contradiction, average haste gear being Mnks w.turban, brown belt, b.haidate, and fuma 21% vs. War w.turban, swift belt, dusk gloves, b.haidate, and aurum/dusk/unicorn boots 19-20%? Let’s not get into the difference of att/acc.

Personally I find it's less of a performance issue and more just what you're comfortable with. Wars, Sams, and Mnks are all really good and if you aren't well geared and merited you're just going to suck no matter what job. I realize salvage is the only place mnk really gets to shine in the spotlight but having other jobs sharing that spotlight doesn't hurt Mnk really.


Well, remember you are talking to a guy that thinks mnk is the end all-be all... (admittedly)

These are all good points, I also agree about the haste. Besides, if a war really needed to cap haste for shadows, all they need to do is put on a rune chopper and remove a couple pieces of haste gear. They can also eat rabbit pie if they really want to negate some chariot attk as well. Not to mention any retaliated hits (which you will take anyway) feed TP for a faster kill = less damage taken in the end.

I still think mnk is more suited to it, but really only because counter helps you get shadows back up quicker, and really for no other reason except store TP. Black belt changes the discussion, but not every mnk has a black belt.

Edited, May 15th 2009 1:52pm by LordMnementh
____________________________
Want to know what I am listening to? Click here for my Zune Profile!
lolgaxe wrote:
Lucinus wrote:
WARs do what they do best.

Provoke the foe and break it in half.
Coincidentally, that's how I met my wife.
#12 May 15 2009 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
*****
15,262 posts
MNK ftw.
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#13 May 15 2009 at 12:19 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
LordMnementh wrote:
OrsonBastokChampion wrote:
I think you're seriously underestimating how much damage War/Sam or Sam/War does to the chariot bosses. You're saying similarly geared so assuming the mnk and the other DD has top notch gear they're going to be very close. Mnks main advantage is being a little bit easier to defend and obviously subtle blow but if you go /War you can't really counterstance and /Nin you spend a lot of time using Utsesumi: Ichi at 4 seconds a cast that does slow your damage. Seigan + Third Eye are not taken out by chariot WS. Sam/War and War/Sam also have Voke to bounce hate a bit easier. Also now because of auspice TP gain isn't a huge issue either that's not really an issue at all. The other be advantage War or Sam has as well is if you're in a rush and need to kill the chariot boss fast their 2hrs are much safer. Using HF on certain chariots is asking for special move spam. Chakra is nice but really you use it what like 3-4 times during a fight? If War and Sam are similarly geared to Mnk then how can you say that Mnks generally have more haste? That's a big contradiction, average haste gear being Mnks w.turban, brown belt, b.haidate, and fuma 21% vs. War w.turban, swift belt, dusk gloves, b.haidate, and aurum/dusk/unicorn boots 19-20%? Let’s not get into the difference of att/acc.

Personally I find it's less of a performance issue and more just what you're comfortable with. Wars, Sams, and Mnks are all really good and if you aren't well geared and merited you're just going to suck no matter what job. I realize salvage is the only place mnk really gets to shine in the spotlight but having other jobs sharing that spotlight doesn't hurt Mnk really.


Well, remember you are talking to a guy that thinks mnk is the end all-be all... (admittedly)

These are all good points, I also agree about the haste. Besides, if a war really needed to cap haste for shadows, all they need to do is put on a rune chopper and remove a couple pieces of haste gear. They can also eat rabbit pie if they really want to negate some chariot attk as well. Not to mention any retaliated hits (which you will take anyway) feed TP for a faster kill = less damage taken in the end.

I still think mnk is more suited to it, but really only because counter helps you get shadows back up quicker, and really for no other reason except store TP. Black belt changes the discussion, but not every mnk has a black belt.

Edited, May 15th 2009 1:52pm by LordMnementh


indeed i'll be the first to admit my MNK bias, but that's not really where the current conversation strand is coming from.

the thing is, chariots are heavy hitters, and 50%~ damage reduction from counterstance is huge. add shadows, subtle blow, steady heavy DD and relatively easy to get haste and they're the ideal chariot tank. is their DD potential greater than a WAR or SAM's? that's arguable, but the primary virtues of MNK tanks on chariots are defensive.

again, that's not to say other jobs can't tank chariots, obviously. i just posted (and am posting) to agree with kaia in her emphasis on counterstance's utility for this particular event.
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#14 May 15 2009 at 12:26 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
****
4,884 posts
Counterstance is **** broken, it's true.
____________________________
Want to know what I am listening to? Click here for my Zune Profile!
lolgaxe wrote:
Lucinus wrote:
WARs do what they do best.

Provoke the foe and break it in half.
Coincidentally, that's how I met my wife.
#15 May 15 2009 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
**
359 posts
Absolutely counterstance is what makes Mnks the go to tank in salvage usually. I just personally think over the course of the seigan addition, 2-hander update, and now recently auspice you're at luxury who can really tank well. Again it all depends on what you're comfortable with I'd definitely agree that Mnk/Nin is the easiest job to support and best defensively. The one thing that usually isn't big issue but if you get unlucky as Mnk and get hit AoE > DA right at the beginning of a fight your healers have to be careful not to pull hate early (guess that's usually where good mnks use chakra.)

Edited, May 15th 2009 1:30pm by OrsonBastokChampion
____________________________
"Now! This is it! NOW is the time to choose. Die, and be free of pain; or LIVE, and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories. Your fate is in your hands!"
- Auron

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?92889
#16 May 15 2009 at 12:30 PM Rating: Excellent
**
330 posts
Quote:
w/ cs up and 5 merits, rate is ACC%*.5, and ACC%*.6 if you had melee gaiters on when you used cs

Oh snap, when was that determined? Last I heard it was all guessing games and half-baked theories. Can you provide more info on:
1) How counter merits play into that (ie counter rate without v with, how much each one improves. I assume + counter gear to work the same as merits, which would allow quantification of temple+1 v Byakkos no?)
2) How those numbers were arrived at
3) What the formula is without CS up?

If this is all common knowledge nowadays, my apologies, I haven't really looked into it in a while.

#17 May 15 2009 at 12:44 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
iheartninja wrote:
Quote:
w/ cs up and 5 merits, rate is ACC%*.5, and ACC%*.6 if you had melee gaiters on when you used cs

Oh snap, when was that determined? Last I heard it was all guessing games and half-baked theories. Can you provide more info on:
1) How counter merits play into that (ie counter rate without v with, how much each one improves. I assume + counter gear to work the same as merits, which would allow quantification of temple+1 v Byakkos no?)
2) How those numbers were arrived at
3) What the formula is without CS up?

If this is all common knowledge nowadays, my apologies, I haven't really looked into it in a while.



(1) i can't test, because i've had counter merits for so long.
(2) here (the implicit premise that max counter rate is 60%~ comes from when almalexia and i tested melee gaiters effect on counterstance vs TW/EP). there's more data near the end from a MNK/WAR + DRG/mage party.
(3) in the same thread, i tangentially posted a test of non-CS rate, which was 14%-15% with capped ACC. so, no merits: .1*ACC%, 5 merits, .15*ACC% (.15*.95=.1425, with me getting 14%~ in a sample of 3000 hits in that link).
(4) ???

edit: by the way, i'm fairly sure i have some chariot parses that also confirm the theory. let me see... nope, old salvage group leader did all the parsing in salvage. (shrug) further edit: unforunately, i can't use MNK/NIN parses as data, because there's no guarantee i didn't get hit disproportionately more with focus down (though if you think about it, that would be somewhat odd).

Edited, May 15th 2009 4:56pm by milich
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#18 May 15 2009 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
***
3,144 posts
My salvage group normally goes as

MNK/NIN Tarutaru (me)
WAR/NIN Mithra
BRD/WHM Hume
RDM/WHM Hume
WHM/BLM Hume
COR/NIN Mithra
THF/NIN Hume (Mandau THF)

Or

MNK/NIN Tarutaru (me)
WAR/NIN Mithra
BRD/WHM Hume
WHM/BLM Hume
DRG/SAM Hume (Gungnir DRG)
THF/NIN Mithra
RDM/WHM Hume

or something like that.

MNK/NIN and WAR/NIN CAN and DO co-tank effectively. I actually prefer it for silver sea when the boss charms. Retaliation allows the war not to be able to chase down the mages (runs REALLLLYY slow with dusk on too) and the provoke spike helps solidify hate.

Thats not to say I havent won it with 2 MNK/NINs - Ive just found it easier when you have a voker there.

We have co-tanked every salvage boss - it took us a few attempts at silver sea and bhaflau to get down our strategies and get used to working side by side but I personally feel that its worked out quite well.

---

penance + auspice + monks roll = lolchariots btw

Edited, May 15th 2009 9:35pm by Xellith
____________________________
75BLM 75PLD 75RDM 75WAR 75MNK 75NIN 75THF 75SAM 75BRD 75RNG 75DRK 75SMN, 75DRG 75DNC 75WHM 75COR 75BST 75BLU 75PUP 75SCH - # of summoner burns = 0

http://sizedd.freeforums.org/

Quote a few months before the mass salvage banning:
couerlmaster wrote:
And stfu with the banstick, this is hardly traceable and so widespread throughout the EG community there's nothing SE can do w/o banning half the EG community on every server


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0O8qb58bHY
#19 May 15 2009 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,864 posts
Thanks for all the feedback. I'm looking for an alternate Thf or Sam for our group which will allow me to go as Warrior, and our normal Thf or Sam to come as either Thf or Sam (he's also Monk, but feels less comfortable in his Monk gear and job than he does as Sam). Our other 2 Monks who both have Blackbelt have kind of spotty attendance, albeit for good IRL reasons.
____________________________
Carbuncle


#20 May 16 2009 at 12:35 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
3,264 posts
If I had MNK leveled, I'd do Salvage on that, but I don't.

I've been doing Salvage for just at a year now, 3-4 runs per week, always going as WAR/NIN. Our group has just shy of 40 pieces, not counting a couple people who got a piece or two but had to quit due to RL commitments, and tons of 2/3 for several pieces (SSR can kiss my ass, and if I see one more double Skadi boss...)

Basically meaning, we're pretty effective, most zones we'll farm 35s and do the boss with a little time left over. (SSR is always 4NM + Boss, etc)

That entire time I've tanked on WAR/NIN, co-tanking with the MNK (Who has BB and pretty much everything but full Usukane). Tanking all of the bosses on WAR is pretty easy (Obviously MNK has a huge advantage with Counterstance), but I've never felt that I was holding the group back by being on WAR.

Having someone to voke things for that quick initial hate spike helps, and as long as the WAR is a capable tank (Knows how to cast Ichi basically, the rest is pretty common sense), and has good support, they can be quite capable in Salvage.
____________________________
Furionstormrage of Cerberus - PLD/WAR/RDM/NIN/WHM/DRK
PLD Equipment Guide
There's nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?
Ukonvasara, Hydra Haubert, Ares's Cuirass, Ebody, all thanks to awesome friends!
#21 May 16 2009 at 2:06 AM Rating: Excellent
**
330 posts
Quote:
(4) ???

Hah. I had completely forgotten about the Belgian Connection. When I originally skimmed that post I didn't haev mnk leveled and didn't pay any attention to it (other than the skype number). Rated up, thanks for the link.
#22 May 16 2009 at 6:35 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,877 posts
Once you have Abilities/Subs/Magic, WAR is actually a better tank the first few floors on most of them. Better hate holding, and even with shadows down, normally don't get hit for much.

But as you go higher up, MNK really does start doing better. And on chariots, obviously MNK is far better.

As said, you can do it with WAR all the way, but you will find for the most part it tends to be a tad slower, and far riskier.
____________________________
75: SMN, THF, WAR, WHM, DRK
#23 May 16 2009 at 8:34 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
986 posts
dakpluto wrote:
Once you have Abilities/Subs/Magic, WAR is actually a better tank the first few floors on most of them. Better hate holding, and even with shadows down, normally don't get hit for much.


Even if it's not the best, retaliation tanking the first two floors is godly. :3
____________________________
Eltio - Bastokan Galka of Hades Server
lvl 75 {dirty}

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Tokitoki wrote:
Is Pikko secretly Eltio?
#24 May 18 2009 at 5:58 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
****
4,884 posts
I'd still take a War over a Sam if I did Salvage, honestly. Ive done Salvage a couple times, and Ive tanked Chariots (lesser ones) and with equally good support, I'd take Mnk > War > Sam > Drk (everyone forgets how good a Drk/Nin can tank) for raw tanking/DD ability and usefulness throughout salvage. War really does have that role pretty close to mnk on all angles with the major exception of counterstance.
____________________________
Want to know what I am listening to? Click here for my Zune Profile!
lolgaxe wrote:
Lucinus wrote:
WARs do what they do best.

Provoke the foe and break it in half.
Coincidentally, that's how I met my wife.
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 15 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (15)