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War end gameFollow

#1 Mar 25 2009 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
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So some people in my LS asked why I leveled war, I told them because I like the in your face melee/damage they do and I find war/nin enjoyable. Also because I want to help tank end game....and that's where they started laughing and said good luck with that. Anyways, I left the game about 6 years ago and then war and pld were basiclly main tanks in parties and end game. What changed so much to make war not able to tank end game now? I remember in the LS I use to be in everyone prefered war/nin or nin/nin over pld since they were more mp drainers.
#2 Mar 25 2009 at 12:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'll field this one, since I have both pld and war at 75.

I think the answer you're looking for is that war can tank most mobs decently, but pld and nin just do it so much better.

Keeping in mind, of course, that the following explanations are for endgame type mobs. Bigger stuff, if you will.

Over the years pld has been handed a pile of new abilities and modifications to make it really shine as a first class tank, and in the right hands are certainly not mp sinks. How so, you ask? PLD/NIN. Before you go lulzpldwithoutprovoke, we've since seen (and some have conducted themselves) testing that shows that the Volatile Enmity (VE, or hate that decays over time) generated by Provoke decays at a rate that by the time 30 seconds have passed, all Enmity generated by Provoke has disappeared. The way pld/nin handles the loss of provoke (and it's not much of a loss to start with) is by mitigating far more damage with Utsu than they would ever generate with provoke, thereby sustaining Cumulative Enmity, the kind that you lose when you take a shot to the face.

Ninja handles hate building in a similar manner, by slowly building up a vast amount of CE by subbing drk and spamming blind, stun, sleep, and other spells. With the amount of refresh that can be given to them (spell, ballad, Evokers Roll, etc) they for the most part have little issue with mp and mitigate damage through shadows, like pld.

Warrior can tank decently, we mitigate our damage in the same manner as the above two jobs, and we hold hate through our damage. As we all know, war can and will tank at times whether we want to or not. Sometimes though, that damage just isn't enough, and we don't have the slew of abilities that pld has, nor the option of subbing a hate building sub AND keeping shadows, our greatest survival tool.

Hope that clears a few things up!
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#3 Mar 25 2009 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks for the reply, can you also explain if war can still tank end game mobs like sky/sea? Or is that mostly only now when the main tanks have died? I don't mind not being a "main" tank end game just thought I could help out a little bit more then I thought...like if none of our main tanks were online that night or something.
#4 Mar 25 2009 at 12:33 PM Rating: Excellent
Warrior is one of the top and certainly the most versatile DDs endgame or otherwise. They aren't, however, considered main tanks over PLDs or NINs.
Paladins have a host of abilities and gear that make them desirable for end game and the 'nin tank onry' days are long gone. It's all situational.

I'm just wondering why they would question your desire to be one of the bread-and-butter jobs in the game.

You may need to run far away from that shell. Smiley: dubious
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#5 Mar 25 2009 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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Ah you're from the fairy server. That was the server I was on actually with my LS named Paradigm, but that was many moons ago...only names I can remember on there were Doshu (rng) and Dbone (smn). Anyways, thanks for clearing things up guys..I'm level 65 now so just trying to get a picture of what to look forward to end game these days.
#6 Mar 25 2009 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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As someone who loves tanking (75 war, pal, nin & rdm) i'll say this, warrior can tank many endgame mobs (indeed, i have done) but normally if a paladin, Nin or situationally Rdm is around you are going to be DDing.

The best advice i can give any up & coming war with hopes of tanking is to have kick *** DD & weaponskill sets, then work on building a kick ***/decent Enmity set and carry all 3 with you in any situation where you could be called on to tank. Having a decent warrior whos able to tank in endgame (lets say sky) can often free up a Paladin & let your linkshell double its effectivness (like being able to kill Mother globe & Zipacna at the same time without risking a second linkshell taking one) and can even save wipes on mobs like seiryu (yes, i know no linkshell should wipe to him, but it has happened before) if your paladins and/or nins are all dead after a ***** up with hundred fists that warrior whos just switched into +50 enmity can make the difference.

Never be scared of your voke macro young warrior.








Edited, Mar 25th 2009 6:42pm by Demonviper
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#7 Mar 25 2009 at 5:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mercediz wrote:
Thanks for the reply, can you also explain if war can still tank end game mobs like sky/sea? Or is that mostly only now when the main tanks have died? I don't mind not being a "main" tank end game just thought I could help out a little bit more then I thought...like if none of our main tanks were online that night or something.
I would say, it depend on the war.

EndGame tanking(or even low endgame events like sky) demand serious preparation to be performed properly, simple tanking is the core job of the fight, and the one who require more responsibility.

If you(War) prepare properly for, it's viable to tank, if a nin or pld do the same, is wise to let them tank, of course if the level of the mob increases, your chances to take a shot at tanking it and doing it well are fewer.

And definitely tanking a Sky God just with War(s) main tanking it's a bit risky(besides Genbu of course.)

I hope it helps.

Ken.

P.D.btw great answer Axciom ^^d
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#8 Mar 26 2009 at 2:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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axciom wrote:
I think the answer you're looking for is that war can has tanked most mobs decently, but pld and nin just do it so much better.
A little fix, but still correct.
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#9 Mar 26 2009 at 5:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Here's a recent Kirin story:

I straight tanked Kirin for a minute solid somehow with War/Sam while we were doing kite method. I died a bunch of times over the course of both fights because... well it's Kirin, but I decided to do a Doom Cyclone on him. I was prepared to die, but I wanted to live through my 2 hour as long as possible. I put up seigan/te and straight tanked for the entire duration of my 2 hour when he decided to spam tail swipe and my anticipates decided not to disappear after the first one. Then my healers were on the ball enough to keep me alive when I lost the anticipates. A lot of that was luck (not getting oneshotted by Deadly Hold, or getting spammed any of the through-shadows magic damage abilities, or getting a Stonega IV to the face) but it was fun. I still didn't die the duration of that fight, despite having hate many times.

Moral is, War can do enough damage even to tank high defense targets, especially ones who spam magic abilities plds and nins can't blink. Though it isn't nearly as efficient as a pld doing it with MDB gear on. (we get the same gear though)

I did about 1700 on that Doom Cyclone btw, iirc.
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#10 Mar 26 2009 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
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WAR end-game



I keed, I keed >_>
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#11 Mar 26 2009 at 9:37 AM Rating: Good
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The biggest barrier stopping WAR from tanking endgame is not our ability to tank but the community that rejects it.

Edited, Mar 26th 2009 1:38pm by TheSecretOfHorutoto
#12 Mar 26 2009 at 1:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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kenage wrote:
P.D.btw great answer Axciom ^^d


Thank you sir! :D
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#13 Mar 27 2009 at 3:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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TheSecretOfHorutoto wrote:
The biggest barrier stopping WAR from tanking endgame is not our ability to tank but the community that rejects it.
I'd think the bigger barrier is that three other jobs can do it better.
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#14 Mar 27 2009 at 3:32 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
TheSecretOfHorutoto wrote:
The biggest barrier stopping WAR from tanking endgame is not our ability to tank but the community that rejects it.
I'd think the bigger barrier is that three other jobs can do it better.
^
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#15 Mar 27 2009 at 4:00 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
TheSecretOfHorutoto wrote:
The biggest barrier stopping WAR from tanking endgame is not our ability to tank but the community that rejects it.
I'd think the bigger barrier is that three other jobs can do it better.
I'm going with this one too, if you have pld, rdm or nin leveled is very easy to see the dramatic difference in damage mitigation/enmity generation that those jobs have.

Ken.
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#16 Mar 27 2009 at 9:40 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
I'd think the bigger barrier is that four other jobs can do it better.


Fix'd.
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#17 Mar 27 2009 at 9:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
The biggest barrier stopping WAR from tanking endgame is not our ability to tank but the community that rejects it.

Every melee WHM/NIN out there feels your pain. If only player community were more open to things that work worse than other things, we would all be happier.

You know, what's funny is that I was being sarcastic when I started writing that, but about halfway through it occurred to me that I might actually mean it.
#18 Mar 27 2009 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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Eltio wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
I'd think the bigger barrier is that four other jobs can do it better.


Fix'd.


Whm?
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#19 Mar 27 2009 at 9:57 AM Rating: Good
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o_O the real moral of this story is if you want to tank, great, find a community that is open to that sort of things. Odds are though, that community will have a pally and a ninja who want to tank and what are they going to do if you're tanking? Im sure they will have their off days, or days they mess up, and thats your chance to step up. I wouldn't expect it on a normal occurence though.

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yeah warriors have a weakness, people thinking they're inferior in both tanking and DD because they can do both.

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#20 Mar 27 2009 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Whm?


Nin, Pal, Rdm & Salvage Mnk tanking i think.

Also whichever is better depends on what you're doing: (while its not really endgame) i'd rather tank a diorite farm on War than my Nin or Pal, but i'll agree that more often than not since i hit 75 on my other tanks i've used them more in endgame tanking situations than my warrior.


Edited, Mar 27th 2009 4:00pm by Demonviper
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#21 Mar 27 2009 at 12:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mnks suffer from the same problems War's do tanking the higher end defensive targets. ALL mnks can rely on is their damage. Warrior at least has several spike hate abilities they can depend on.

Monks are specialized tanks. Due to the nature of the opening floor of salvage, and the type of mob chariots are, mnks shine much more than any other tank on those specific targets.

That doesn't mean they are better tanks than war's, just that they are better in specific situations. Those happen to be the same situations though where other tanks have the same weaknesses as war.
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#22 Mar 27 2009 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
ALL mnks can rely on is their damage. Warrior at least has several spike hate abilities they can depend on.
Well, that and counterstance. Being able to counter at ~60% rate due to merits and AF2 boots goes a long way to getting shadows back up, when you get an unlucky shadow wipe from those Chariots. But yeah, that counterstance is what gives MNK the nod (along with subtle blow + penance).
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#23 Mar 27 2009 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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LordMnementh wrote:
Eltio wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
I'd think the bigger barrier is that four other jobs can do it better.


Fix'd.


Whm?


Nah, BLU. I'm not sure I'd consider Salvage endgame tanking. MNKs do a great job on chariots tho.
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#24 Mar 28 2009 at 10:23 AM Rating: Good
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Cyth wrote:
Quote:
ALL mnks can rely on is their damage. Warrior at least has several spike hate abilities they can depend on.
Well, that and counterstance. Being able to counter at ~60% rate due to merits and AF2 boots goes a long way to getting shadows back up, when you get an unlucky shadow wipe from those Chariots. But yeah, that counterstance is what gives MNK the nod (along with subtle blow + penance).
Can be higher.

Boost, High Haste, etc etc. I can't tank aswell on WAR as i can on MNK. I really miss counter on NIN, too.
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#25 Mar 28 2009 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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Another thing is I love raging rush and glad I've leveled my gaxe. I'm level 67 atm and maybe it's just my play style but I honestly really hate gaxe and the delay in swings vs x2 axes. I know gaxe is a little better now but I really want to swtich back to duel wield axes at some point. How much more gimped will I be by doing this, I think I read some where that if you have good gear it's not really that bad. It's more then just the "cool" factor of duel wielding I don't know how to put it but I just prefer it.

Edited, Mar 28th 2009 3:36pm by Mercediz
#26 Mar 28 2009 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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I don't want to be a jerk, but this question's kind of beat to death. I think there's been two threads several pages long on it just this past month. I just don't want to see every thread turn into GA vs axe.
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