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#1 Mar 25 2009 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
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So some people in my LS asked why I leveled war, I told them because I like the in your face melee/damage they do and I find war/nin enjoyable. Also because I want to help tank end game....and that's where they started laughing and said good luck with that. Anyways, I left the game about 6 years ago and then war and pld were basiclly main tanks in parties and end game. What changed so much to make war not able to tank end game now? I remember in the LS I use to be in everyone prefered war/nin or nin/nin over pld since they were more mp drainers.
#2 Mar 25 2009 at 12:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'll field this one, since I have both pld and war at 75.

I think the answer you're looking for is that war can tank most mobs decently, but pld and nin just do it so much better.

Keeping in mind, of course, that the following explanations are for endgame type mobs. Bigger stuff, if you will.

Over the years pld has been handed a pile of new abilities and modifications to make it really shine as a first class tank, and in the right hands are certainly not mp sinks. How so, you ask? PLD/NIN. Before you go lulzpldwithoutprovoke, we've since seen (and some have conducted themselves) testing that shows that the Volatile Enmity (VE, or hate that decays over time) generated by Provoke decays at a rate that by the time 30 seconds have passed, all Enmity generated by Provoke has disappeared. The way pld/nin handles the loss of provoke (and it's not much of a loss to start with) is by mitigating far more damage with Utsu than they would ever generate with provoke, thereby sustaining Cumulative Enmity, the kind that you lose when you take a shot to the face.

Ninja handles hate building in a similar manner, by slowly building up a vast amount of CE by subbing drk and spamming blind, stun, sleep, and other spells. With the amount of refresh that can be given to them (spell, ballad, Evokers Roll, etc) they for the most part have little issue with mp and mitigate damage through shadows, like pld.

Warrior can tank decently, we mitigate our damage in the same manner as the above two jobs, and we hold hate through our damage. As we all know, war can and will tank at times whether we want to or not. Sometimes though, that damage just isn't enough, and we don't have the slew of abilities that pld has, nor the option of subbing a hate building sub AND keeping shadows, our greatest survival tool.

Hope that clears a few things up!
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#3 Mar 25 2009 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks for the reply, can you also explain if war can still tank end game mobs like sky/sea? Or is that mostly only now when the main tanks have died? I don't mind not being a "main" tank end game just thought I could help out a little bit more then I thought...like if none of our main tanks were online that night or something.
#4 Mar 25 2009 at 12:33 PM Rating: Excellent
Warrior is one of the top and certainly the most versatile DDs endgame or otherwise. They aren't, however, considered main tanks over PLDs or NINs.
Paladins have a host of abilities and gear that make them desirable for end game and the 'nin tank onry' days are long gone. It's all situational.

I'm just wondering why they would question your desire to be one of the bread-and-butter jobs in the game.

You may need to run far away from that shell. Smiley: dubious
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#5 Mar 25 2009 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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Ah you're from the fairy server. That was the server I was on actually with my LS named Paradigm, but that was many moons ago...only names I can remember on there were Doshu (rng) and Dbone (smn). Anyways, thanks for clearing things up guys..I'm level 65 now so just trying to get a picture of what to look forward to end game these days.
#6 Mar 25 2009 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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As someone who loves tanking (75 war, pal, nin & rdm) i'll say this, warrior can tank many endgame mobs (indeed, i have done) but normally if a paladin, Nin or situationally Rdm is around you are going to be DDing.

The best advice i can give any up & coming war with hopes of tanking is to have kick **** DD & weaponskill sets, then work on building a kick ass/decent Enmity set and carry all 3 with you in any situation where you could be called on to tank. Having a decent warrior whos able to tank in endgame (lets say sky) can often free up a Paladin & let your linkshell double its effectivness (like being able to kill Mother globe & Zipacna at the same time without risking a second linkshell taking one) and can even save wipes on mobs like seiryu (yes, i know no linkshell should wipe to him, but it has happened before) if your paladins and/or nins are all dead after a **** up with hundred fists that warrior whos just switched into +50 enmity can make the difference.

Never be scared of your voke macro young warrior.








Edited, Mar 25th 2009 6:42pm by Demonviper
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#7 Mar 25 2009 at 5:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mercediz wrote:
Thanks for the reply, can you also explain if war can still tank end game mobs like sky/sea? Or is that mostly only now when the main tanks have died? I don't mind not being a "main" tank end game just thought I could help out a little bit more then I thought...like if none of our main tanks were online that night or something.
I would say, it depend on the war.

EndGame tanking(or even low endgame events like sky) demand serious preparation to be performed properly, simple tanking is the core job of the fight, and the one who require more responsibility.

If you(War) prepare properly for, it's viable to tank, if a nin or pld do the same, is wise to let them tank, of course if the level of the mob increases, your chances to take a shot at tanking it and doing it well are fewer.

And definitely tanking a Sky God just with War(s) main tanking it's a bit risky(besides Genbu of course.)

I hope it helps.

Ken.

P.D.btw great answer Axciom ^^d
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#8 Mar 26 2009 at 2:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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axciom wrote:
I think the answer you're looking for is that war can has tanked most mobs decently, but pld and nin just do it so much better.
A little fix, but still correct.
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#9 Mar 26 2009 at 5:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Here's a recent Kirin story:

I straight tanked Kirin for a minute solid somehow with War/Sam while we were doing kite method. I died a bunch of times over the course of both fights because... well it's Kirin, but I decided to do a Doom Cyclone on him. I was prepared to die, but I wanted to live through my 2 hour as long as possible. I put up seigan/te and straight tanked for the entire duration of my 2 hour when he decided to spam tail swipe and my anticipates decided not to disappear after the first one. Then my healers were on the ball enough to keep me alive when I lost the anticipates. A lot of that was luck (not getting oneshotted by Deadly Hold, or getting spammed any of the through-shadows magic damage abilities, or getting a Stonega IV to the face) but it was fun. I still didn't die the duration of that fight, despite having hate many times.

Moral is, War can do enough damage even to tank high defense targets, especially ones who spam magic abilities plds and nins can't blink. Though it isn't nearly as efficient as a pld doing it with MDB gear on. (we get the same gear though)

I did about 1700 on that Doom Cyclone btw, iirc.
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#10 Mar 26 2009 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
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WAR end-game



I keed, I keed >_>
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#11 Mar 26 2009 at 9:37 AM Rating: Good
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The biggest barrier stopping WAR from tanking endgame is not our ability to tank but the community that rejects it.

Edited, Mar 26th 2009 1:38pm by TheSecretOfHorutoto
#12 Mar 26 2009 at 1:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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kenage wrote:
P.D.btw great answer Axciom ^^d


Thank you sir! :D
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#13 Mar 27 2009 at 3:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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TheSecretOfHorutoto wrote:
The biggest barrier stopping WAR from tanking endgame is not our ability to tank but the community that rejects it.
I'd think the bigger barrier is that three other jobs can do it better.
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#14 Mar 27 2009 at 3:32 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
TheSecretOfHorutoto wrote:
The biggest barrier stopping WAR from tanking endgame is not our ability to tank but the community that rejects it.
I'd think the bigger barrier is that three other jobs can do it better.
^
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#15 Mar 27 2009 at 4:00 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
TheSecretOfHorutoto wrote:
The biggest barrier stopping WAR from tanking endgame is not our ability to tank but the community that rejects it.
I'd think the bigger barrier is that three other jobs can do it better.
I'm going with this one too, if you have pld, rdm or nin leveled is very easy to see the dramatic difference in damage mitigation/enmity generation that those jobs have.

Ken.
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#16 Mar 27 2009 at 9:40 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
I'd think the bigger barrier is that four other jobs can do it better.


Fix'd.
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#17 Mar 27 2009 at 9:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
The biggest barrier stopping WAR from tanking endgame is not our ability to tank but the community that rejects it.

Every melee WHM/NIN out there feels your pain. If only player community were more open to things that work worse than other things, we would all be happier.

You know, what's funny is that I was being sarcastic when I started writing that, but about halfway through it occurred to me that I might actually mean it.
#18 Mar 27 2009 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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Eltio wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
I'd think the bigger barrier is that four other jobs can do it better.


Fix'd.


Whm?
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lolgaxe wrote:
Lucinus wrote:
WARs do what they do best.

Provoke the foe and break it in half.
Coincidentally, that's how I met my wife.
#19 Mar 27 2009 at 9:57 AM Rating: Good
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o_O the real moral of this story is if you want to tank, great, find a community that is open to that sort of things. Odds are though, that community will have a pally and a ninja who want to tank and what are they going to do if you're tanking? Im sure they will have their off days, or days they mess up, and thats your chance to step up. I wouldn't expect it on a normal occurence though.

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#20 Mar 27 2009 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Whm?


Nin, Pal, Rdm & Salvage Mnk tanking i think.

Also whichever is better depends on what you're doing: (while its not really endgame) i'd rather tank a diorite farm on War than my Nin or Pal, but i'll agree that more often than not since i hit 75 on my other tanks i've used them more in endgame tanking situations than my warrior.


Edited, Mar 27th 2009 4:00pm by Demonviper
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#21 Mar 27 2009 at 12:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mnks suffer from the same problems War's do tanking the higher end defensive targets. ALL mnks can rely on is their damage. Warrior at least has several spike hate abilities they can depend on.

Monks are specialized tanks. Due to the nature of the opening floor of salvage, and the type of mob chariots are, mnks shine much more than any other tank on those specific targets.

That doesn't mean they are better tanks than war's, just that they are better in specific situations. Those happen to be the same situations though where other tanks have the same weaknesses as war.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Lucinus wrote:
WARs do what they do best.

Provoke the foe and break it in half.
Coincidentally, that's how I met my wife.
#22 Mar 27 2009 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
ALL mnks can rely on is their damage. Warrior at least has several spike hate abilities they can depend on.
Well, that and counterstance. Being able to counter at ~60% rate due to merits and AF2 boots goes a long way to getting shadows back up, when you get an unlucky shadow wipe from those Chariots. But yeah, that counterstance is what gives MNK the nod (along with subtle blow + penance).
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#23 Mar 27 2009 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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LordMnementh wrote:
Eltio wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
I'd think the bigger barrier is that four other jobs can do it better.


Fix'd.


Whm?


Nah, BLU. I'm not sure I'd consider Salvage endgame tanking. MNKs do a great job on chariots tho.
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#24 Mar 28 2009 at 10:23 AM Rating: Good
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Cyth wrote:
Quote:
ALL mnks can rely on is their damage. Warrior at least has several spike hate abilities they can depend on.
Well, that and counterstance. Being able to counter at ~60% rate due to merits and AF2 boots goes a long way to getting shadows back up, when you get an unlucky shadow wipe from those Chariots. But yeah, that counterstance is what gives MNK the nod (along with subtle blow + penance).
Can be higher.

Boost, High Haste, etc etc. I can't tank aswell on WAR as i can on MNK. I really miss counter on NIN, too.
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#25 Mar 28 2009 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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Another thing is I love raging rush and glad I've leveled my gaxe. I'm level 67 atm and maybe it's just my play style but I honestly really hate gaxe and the delay in swings vs x2 axes. I know gaxe is a little better now but I really want to swtich back to duel wield axes at some point. How much more gimped will I be by doing this, I think I read some where that if you have good gear it's not really that bad. It's more then just the "cool" factor of duel wielding I don't know how to put it but I just prefer it.

Edited, Mar 28th 2009 3:36pm by Mercediz
#26 Mar 28 2009 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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I don't want to be a jerk, but this question's kind of beat to death. I think there's been two threads several pages long on it just this past month. I just don't want to see every thread turn into GA vs axe.
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#27 Mar 28 2009 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
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Ya I hear you, I'll just use what I prefer. Anyways thanks for the info guys on the subject ^^.
#28 Mar 28 2009 at 8:59 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Can be higher.
True, it could theoretically be higher. But you still need to keep in mind Accuracy rate effecting counterrate. Counterstance, capped merits and AF2 boots put you at 60%. You can toss on a few more pieces, but of course can't swap in too heavily, without making cuts into your accuracy rate elsewhere.
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#29 Mar 28 2009 at 9:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've never really seen Blue Mage tanks in action, so I can't really comment on it. I've never noticed if their spells spike hate as well as PLD, RDM, and /DRK, or if they can mitigate damage nearly as well as PLD, RDM, and NIN, but again, it's not like I've either witnessed it firsthand or looked elsewhere to draw similar conclusions. Also, I don't really consider things like Limbus and Nyzul as really "end game tanking" situations, as really, any job can tank a majority of the mobs involved in that, if not all of them.
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#30 Mar 29 2009 at 9:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Cyth wrote:
Quote:
Can be higher.
True, it could theoretically be higher. But you still need to keep in mind Accuracy rate effecting counterrate. Counterstance, capped merits and AF2 boots put you at 60%. You can toss on a few more pieces, but of course can't swap in too heavily, without making cuts into your accuracy rate elsewhere.
True. I only ever use specific counter gear when /DNC or in PvP anyway. Counterstance is almost always up though, our mages love me. Smiley: laugh
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#31 Mar 29 2009 at 4:36 PM Rating: Excellent
I really dont think anything matches up to blood tanking Nyzul bosses with retaliation and a fanatic's drink. I think war is the king of that situation for tanking, but like lolgaxe says, Nyzul is hardly AV.
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#32 Mar 30 2009 at 2:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Grandmother MojoVIII wrote:
I really dont think anything matches up to blood tanking Nyzul bosses with retaliation and a fanatic's drink.
I have to admit, if Retaliation is anything, it's fun.
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#33 Mar 30 2009 at 7:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Also, I don't really consider things like Limbus and Nyzul as really "end game tanking" situations, as really, any job can tank a majority of the mobs involved in that, if not all of them.


Nyzul, no. Limbus, yes. Nyzul would count if you couldn't use cheese items like fanatics, because bosses swing really fast, and hit really hard, and you can't enfeeble them for crap. Now, Omega and Ultima get the endgame tanking nod. Our biggest hurdle when fighting those (Ultima specifically) was getting talented, well-geared tanks. They both have annoying hate wipe moves that tanks need to recover hate from quickly. But they are a little easier to tank for normal mob tp because they aren't immune to slow/para/elegy.


Edited, Mar 30th 2009 11:26am by LordMnementh
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lolgaxe wrote:
Lucinus wrote:
WARs do what they do best.

Provoke the foe and break it in half.
Coincidentally, that's how I met my wife.
#34 Mar 31 2009 at 2:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, Omega and Ultima are the exceptions of what I said, of course, but the other areas of Limbus are perfectly easy to Warrior tank.
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#35 Mar 31 2009 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
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Well, I hope some of you don't get mad at my posts as this is my very first melee job ever. Only other job I ever had was smn and that was pretty darn simple imo. With that being said, does soloing as a warrior get a lil easier with Ni? I find solo wise it's hard as /nin pre Ni. I know if I had dancer leveled or more subjobs it could be easier but atm I only have mnk and nin to 37. Another thing is what's the best BSNM to do as warrior that drops the Ni scroll? I have almost 400k saved up from doing retrace/ninja/teleaport quests (I had to give in and get a Hauberk. Should I give in a buy Ni or try some BSNM fights, I only have about 60 beastman seals atm. But without Ni post 74 I think that's like a rdm without dispel etc. My gear right now is AF head,Royal Guard's Collar,Fang earring x2,Hauberk,Tarasque Mitts,Sun Rings x2,Amemet's Mantle,Life Belt,Barone Cosciales,Fighter's Calligae and Gawaine's Axe.

I could use some more money to upgrade my gear but don't know if I should get Ni first and just stick it out...please try to reply nice lol.
#36 Apr 01 2009 at 2:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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You need ni at 74.

You will never be able to solo efficiently as a warrior, thats my only complaint about the job.

Royal jelly drops it I believe, i've never had any luck though.
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yeah warriors have a weakness, people thinking they're inferior in both tanking and DD because they can do both.

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#37 Apr 01 2009 at 2:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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You'll definitely find situations where Ni is a lifesaver.
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#38 Apr 01 2009 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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Meh sucks I'll have to spend almost all my money on Ni ... oh well guess I'll have to try and do the sleepga 2 quest.
#39 Apr 01 2009 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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Mercediz wrote:
Meh sucks I'll have to spend almost all my money on Ni ... oh well guess I'll have to try and do the sleepga 2 quest.
LRN2RoyalJelly.
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#40 Apr 01 2009 at 8:11 PM Rating: Good
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Eltio wrote:
LordMnementh wrote:
Eltio wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
I'd think the bigger barrier is that four other jobs can do it better.


Fix'd.


Whm?


Nah, BLU. I'm not sure I'd consider Salvage endgame tanking. MNKs do a great job on chariots tho.
Really!?, I don't want to argue about the viability of blue for endgame tanking because the job have what it takes to do it half decent... but I stand with the big 3(2&1/2? even as much as I love RDM we really don't have what it takes for those ohh s--t moments) PLD, RDM, NIN.

But if we want to include Blu, I'm pretty sure that Blm and Whm also want a shot for the run, besides of course main Drk who isn't THAT bad for the spot either.

Sincerely.

Ken.
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#41 Apr 01 2009 at 9:31 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Grandmother MojoVIII wrote:
I really dont think anything matches up to blood tanking Nyzul bosses with retaliation and a fanatic's drink.
I have to admit, if Retaliation is anything, it's fun.


Idk, I always found Retaliation to be a pain in the **** outside of fighting MNK mobs, I never understood why SE added that stupid -run/walk.
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#42 Apr 02 2009 at 1:39 AM Rating: Excellent
Pluelf wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Grandmother MojoVIII wrote:
I really dont think anything matches up to blood tanking Nyzul bosses with retaliation and a fanatic's drink.
I have to admit, if Retaliation is anything, it's fun.


Idk, I always found Retaliation to be a pain in the **** outside of fighting MNK mobs, I never understood why SE added that stupid -run/walk.
Swings and roundabouts?

It's the same reason they added it on dusk gear. Makes you value it more during fights, but it's not something to be taken for granted and used 100% of the time! (unless you're in mmj and not moving at all, ever)
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#43 Apr 02 2009 at 2:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe I've been so used to Dusk gear that I hardly notice the -movement speed. Then again, the few merits I do on Warrior anymore is with like a totally awesome Bard who stages mobs right on top of me (I think he's trying to kill me), so I hardly actually move in parties to begin with. Either way, mob hits me, I hit him back.
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#44 Apr 02 2009 at 5:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Pluelf wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Grandmother MojoVIII wrote:
I really dont think anything matches up to blood tanking Nyzul bosses with retaliation and a fanatic's drink.
I have to admit, if Retaliation is anything, it's fun.


Idk, I always found Retaliation to be a pain in the **** outside of fighting MNK mobs, I never understood why SE added that stupid -run/walk.


I am convinced SE created hermes sandles for retaliation.

I am also convinced I should buy them right now insted of berk +1. price is going down on my server ; ;
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#45 Apr 02 2009 at 5:43 AM Rating: Good
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Eltio wrote:
LordMnementh wrote:
Eltio wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
I'd think the bigger barrier is that four other jobs can do it better.


Fix'd.


Whm?


Nah, BLU. I'm not sure I'd consider Salvage endgame tanking. MNKs do a great job on chariots tho.
I would've said SAM/NIN for lowman tanking stuff.
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#46 Apr 02 2009 at 7:05 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
I've never really seen Blue Mage tanks in action, so I can't really comment on it. I've never noticed if their spells spike hate as well as PLD, RDM, and /DRK, or if they can mitigate damage nearly as well as PLD, RDM, and NIN, but again, it's not like I've either witnessed it firsthand or looked elsewhere to draw similar conclusions. Also, I don't really consider things like Limbus and Nyzul as really "end game tanking" situations, as really, any job can tank a majority of the mobs involved in that, if not all of them.


Well, consider that BLU has AOE Flash (actinic burst), AOE stun (temporal shift), dispel (blank gaze and geist wall), sleeps--all key spells for RDM, PLD, and /DRK tanking, all with equivalent hate generation (slightly less but Conserve MP Job Trait makes up for it)--as well as a sizable hate tool noone else has, Terror (Jettatura). As well as the most MP efficient cure in the game (Magic Fruit). As well as a move that generates more hate than Invincible if it buffs 6 targets, and on a 10 minute timer (Diffusion + Exuviation). As well as MDB+50 spike spell (Saline Coat). As well as ability to cap phys. damage down without d.ring, can cap magic damage down with Shell V, MDB trait, auto-refresh, etc. etc. Oh, and lolDefense (50% defense boost from Cocoon).

The main downside to BLU tanking is that the recast timers are fairly blaaarrrrgh, but the quantity of spells makes up for it overall. And it doesn't have Shield to prevent ichi interrupts (altho flash and stun makes up for it slightly). The AOE nature of spells is a handicap too if therethings to miscast on. There isn't much in the way of enmity gear either, but haste functions well instead.

And to my knowledge BLU's tanked things such as Tiamat, Cerberus, Khim, etc.
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#47 Apr 02 2009 at 8:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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My friend on Pandy has tanked a lot of things on BLU and says diff/exu isn't even all that necessary, only need to do it once. Spammed Exu (highest CE/MP spell for BLU) and Actinic Burst (cost 1mp less than flash, but on 60s timer) and maybe Jettatura too? Been awhile.
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#48 Apr 02 2009 at 9:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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RedshiftOnPandy wrote:
My friend on Pandy has tanked a lot of things on BLU and says diff/exu isn't even all that necessary, only need to do it once. Spammed Exu (highest CE/MP spell for BLU) and Actinic Burst (cost 1mp less than flash, but on 60s timer) and maybe Jettatura too? Been awhile.


Yea, BLU can be a hate beast, when played right, and take the hits when they have to. We can also do damage to tank and mitigate it to keep that hate.

Also, like Eltio said, Diffusion+Exuviation is some insane hate.

Like any other endgame tank in the game though (PLD/NIN, NIN/DRK, even RDM/anything - they still need a solid backline to stay alive and keep hate) we need some support to do it right. No tank is gonna solo tank anything major without proper support. When the time comes where a job can tank something major solo, that's when FFXI is broken. You can have three Aegis on you, making out with their weird shield faces and still not be able to tank most things solo.
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#49 Apr 03 2009 at 3:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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It sounds feasible, but AoE hate tools can be massive liabilities, too. Just on paper, I'd rank it just slightly higher than Warrior itself, but even then I feel it might be debatable.
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#50 Apr 03 2009 at 5:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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I can see all of the tools at their disposal as a very good opportunity to tank heavily. However, they suffer the same problems as warriors when it really gets down to it:

1. They don't have 7 shadows and can't sub drk
2. They don't have a shield or fantastic JA to mitigate damage when they do get hit.
3. They don't have native tier 3-5 fast cast to make up for the lack of 1 or 2

They strike me as pretty much like rdm without fast cast. So I can see them doing as well as rdm if they can stick flashes/stuns/etc.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Lucinus wrote:
WARs do what they do best.

Provoke the foe and break it in half.
Coincidentally, that's how I met my wife.
#51 Apr 03 2009 at 5:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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I've always said, BLU/PLD is for when the linkshell you hate claims your dragon. "But Mr. GM sir, I was only trying to cure the plague aliment from my party members!"

EDIT: BLU won't be doing much damage on HNM though lol. BLU/RDM is my favourite to go to campaign though.

Edited, Apr 3rd 2009 10:03am by RedshiftOnPandy
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