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Haste & Zucchetto [Math]Follow

#1 Mar 15 2009 at 1:05 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not asking whether or not Askar Zucchetto or Walahra Turban is better, & I don't want any hearsay either.

What I would like to know, is when (if at all, within WAR's access to haste) does the Turban begin to outperform Askar hat? Specific numbers would be lovely, and I know you can't pinpoint it without knowing every variable, but assuming decent [good] accuracy . . 90-95% maybe . . ?


Again, "a lot" doesn't really help, so please, only if you know what you are talking about.

I'm alright at math, so please elaborate if you can, but I'm not sure I could comfortably come up with something substantial myself. If I had to purely guess, I would say around maybe 55% haste?




& if you would like, I haven't been able to decide between Askar, or keeping Adaman Celata in for WS [Raging Rush/Rampage]^^;

Thanks a bunch,




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#2 Mar 15 2009 at 1:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Here and here are two detailed posts that go into the math of Askar and Haste in general for different scenarios.

These should hold you over until milich/phil pop on to give you a more cut and dry answer.
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#3 Mar 15 2009 at 2:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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follow solrain's links. particularly:

haste	delay	hits/min	%increase (this 1 haste)	total change  
0	7.5	8.00	0.00%			0.00%  
1	7.425	8.08	101.01%			101.01%  
2	7.35	8.16	101.02%			102.04%  
3	7.275	8.25	101.03%			103.09%  
4	7.2	8.33	101.04%			104.17%  
5	7.125	8.42	101.05%			105.26%  
6	7.05	8.51	101.06%			106.38%  
7	6.975	8.60	101.08%			107.53%  
8	6.9	8.70	101.09%			108.70%  
9	6.825	8.79	101.10%			109.89%  
10	6.75	8.89	101.11%			111.11%		  
11	6.675	8.99	101.12%			112.36%  
12	6.6	9.09	101.14%			113.64%  
13	6.525	9.20	101.15%			114.94%  
14	6.45	9.30	101.16%			116.28%  
15	6.375	9.41	101.18%			117.65%  
16	6.3	9.52	101.19%			119.05%  
17	6.225	9.64	101.20%			120.48%  
18	6.15	9.76	101.22%			121.95%  
19	6.075	9.88	101.23%			123.46%  
20	6	10.00	101.25%			125.00%  
21	5.925	10.13	101.27%			126.58%  
22	5.85	10.26	101.28%			128.21%  
23	5.775	10.39	101.30%			129.87%  
24	5.7	10.53	101.32%			131.58%  
25	5.625	10.67	101.33%			133.33%  
26	5.55	10.81	101.35%			135.14%  
27	5.475	10.96	101.37%			136.99%  
28	5.4	11.11	101.39%			138.89%  
29	5.325	11.27	101.41%			140.85%  
30	5.25	11.43	101.43%			142.86%  
31	5.175	11.59	101.45%			144.93%  
32	5.1	11.76	101.47%			147.06%  
33	5.025	11.94	101.49%			149.25%  
34	4.95	12.12	101.52%			151.52%  
35	4.875	12.31	101.54%			153.85%  
36	4.8	12.50	101.56%			156.25%  
37	4.725	12.70	101.59%			158.73%  
38	4.65	12.90	101.61%			161.29%  
39	4.575	13.11	101.64%			163.93%  
40	4.5	13.33	101.67%			166.67%  
41	4.425	13.56	101.69%			169.49%  
42	4.35	13.79	101.72%			172.41%  
43	4.275	14.04	101.75%			175.44%  
44	4.2	14.29	101.79%			178.57%  
45	4.125	14.55	101.82%			181.82%  
46	4.05	14.81	101.85%			185.19%  
47	3.975	15.09	101.89%			188.68%  
48	3.9	15.38	101.92%			192.31%  
49	3.825	15.69	101.96%			196.08%  
50	3.75	16.00	102.00%			200.00%  
51	3.675	16.33	102.04%			204.08%  
52	3.6	16.67	102.08%			208.33%  
53	3.525	17.02	102.13%			212.77%  
54	3.45	17.39	102.17%			217.39%  
55	3.375	17.78	102.22%			222.22%  
56	3.3	18.18	102.27%			227.27%  
57	3.225	18.60	102.33%			232.56%  
58	3.15	19.05	102.38%			238.10%  
59	3.075	19.51	102.44%			243.90%  
60	3	20.00	102.50%			250.00%  
61	2.925	20.51	102.56%			256.41%  
62	2.85	21.05	102.63%			263.16%  
63	2.775	21.62	102.70%			270.27%  
64	2.7	22.22	102.78%			277.78%  
65	2.625	22.86	102.86%			285.71%  
66	2.55	23.53	102.94%			294.12%  
67	2.475	24.24	103.03%			303.03%  
68	2.4	25.00	103.13%			312.50%  
69	2.325	25.81	103.23%			322.58%  
70	2.25	26.67	103.33%			333.33%  
71	2.175	27.59	103.45%			344.83%  
72	2.1	28.57	103.57%			357.14%  
73	2.025	29.63	103.70%			370.37%  
74	1.95	30.77	103.85%			384.62%  
75	1.875	32.00	104.00%			400.00%  
76	1.8	33.33	104.17%			416.67%  
77	1.725	34.78	104.35%			434.78%  
78	1.65	36.36	104.55%			454.55%  
79	1.575	38.10	104.76%			476.19%  
80	1.5	40.00	105.00%			500.00%


note the "hits/min" column that i threw aqua font color into every 10 slots.

the % increase from any point in that to a later point is the % DoT increase you get from that much more haste. if that clunky sentence is unclear, here's some examples:

take going from 22% haste to 25% haste. on that list, 22% haste gets you 10.26 hits/min (really it's "rounds/min", but whatever). 25% haste gets you 10.67 rounds/min. 10.67 - 10.26 = .41 and .41/10.26 = 3.99%. in other words, adding 3% haste on top of 22% haste gives you about 4% DoT.

note, it doesn't matter what the delay of your weapon is, or how much dual wield you might have or whatever. 22%->25% haste is a 4% DoT increase for a delay 348 weapon, or for a 507 delay weapon, or a 100 delay weapon.

you can use this table to find different % increases in DoT from varying amounts of haste.

suppose you have 2x march, 18% gear haste with askar or 19% gear haste with turban, haste spell, and hasso. that's 63% to 64% haste. what % increase is that? (using method outlined above, you see that it's 2.77%)

but askar also has 4STR, 3ATT, and 3ACC on it. 4STR is about 1% DoT (raises base dmg by 1, and base dmg is around 100 for GA). 3ATT raises damage by something less than 1%, let's just say .5% (it would vary by mob). 3ACC raises hit rate by 1.5%, so without capping ACC, it yields at least 1.6% DoT. that has the extra stats yielding about 3.1% DoT.

so, turban has yet to overtake askar even at that very large % haste.

"but wait! i thought turban beat askar in certain scenarios!"

yeah, ACC capped scenarios. or, getting that last 1% from 69%->70% or so.

edit: pet peeve of mine: "<OP> i want this, BUT DON'T RESPOND WITH THAT!" i understand not wanting hearsay, but it's just kind of annoying to ask for information and take that attitude. this autobiographical note may seem self-indulgent, but "i don't want hearsay!" is also pretty self-indulgent, so i feel okay about it.


Edited, Mar 15th 2009 6:21am by milich
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#4 Mar 15 2009 at 7:40 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
edit: pet peeve of mine: "<OP> i want this, BUT DON'T RESPOND WITH THAT!" i understand not wanting hearsay, but it's just kind of annoying to ask for information and take that attitude. this autobiographical note may seem self-indulgent, but "i don't want hearsay!" is also pretty self-indulgent, so i feel okay about it.



I was thinking this too actually. Anyway, glad that was answered.


Quote:
& if you would like, I haven't been able to decide between Askar, or keeping Adaman Celata in for WS [Raging Rush/Rampage]^^;



I use Askar. 4STR was just too much for me to pass up in head slot, where I'm used to have 0STR before getting Askar. At least for Raging Rush.

Edited, Mar 15th 2009 8:42am by mazmaz
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#5 Mar 15 2009 at 6:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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milich wrote:
edit: pet peeve of mine: "<OP> i want this, BUT DON'T RESPOND WITH THAT!" i understand not wanting hearsay, but it's just kind of annoying to ask for information and take that attitude. this autobiographical note may seem self-indulgent, but "i don't want hearsay!" is also pretty self-indulgent, so i feel okay about it.




Yeah I know, and I know my post had a sort of indignant feel to it,
it's nothing against any of the potential repliers, I was just trying to avoid responses like this - -

Quote:
A lot.

Quote:
Enough that it will never matter.

Quote:
lolWalahraTurban


etc. , both because those kind of responses drive me crazy, and to avoid confusion.


I also very strongly dislike when people post the answer (or what they deem to be the answer based on what they have most recently heard, not what they themselves have deduced or figured out) just to get rated up or something, and didn't want that either.


I will take my criticism, and will agree.

Thank you very much milich, that is exactly what I was hoping for, I had graphed out the increasing returns from haste a while ago in a notebook in class one day, with the increase resulting from every point of haste, so that was pretty familiar, the biggest trouble I had was I wasn't sure exactly how much the STR / attack was going to help me.

Thank you!

Edit: Didn't see that, thank you mazmaz as well -

Edited, Mar 15th 2009 7:48pm by Tobius
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#6 Mar 15 2009 at 7:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Style is at least 2% Haste though. So as long as you have an Aberk and Yellow feet, Askar is better.
#7 Mar 16 2009 at 2:51 AM Rating: Good
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Overburn wrote:
Style is at least 2% Haste though.
That's why when you put decals on a car it increases the horsepower by 2% as well.
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#8 Mar 16 2009 at 5:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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#9 Mar 16 2009 at 7:51 AM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
follow solrain's links. particularly:

haste	delay	hits/min	%increase (this 1 haste)	total change  
0	7.5	8.00	0.00%			0.00%  
1	7.425	8.08	101.01%			101.01%  
2	7.35	8.16	101.02%			102.04%  
3	7.275	8.25	101.03%			103.09%  
4	7.2	8.33	101.04%			104.17%  
5	7.125	8.42	101.05%			105.26%  
6	7.05	8.51	101.06%			106.38%  
7	6.975	8.60	101.08%			107.53%  
8	6.9	8.70	101.09%			108.70%  
9	6.825	8.79	101.10%			109.89%  
10	6.75	8.89	101.11%			111.11%		  
11	6.675	8.99	101.12%			112.36%  
12	6.6	9.09	101.14%			113.64%  
13	6.525	9.20	101.15%			114.94%  
14	6.45	9.30	101.16%			116.28%  
15	6.375	9.41	101.18%			117.65%  
16	6.3	9.52	101.19%			119.05%  
17	6.225	9.64	101.20%			120.48%  
18	6.15	9.76	101.22%			121.95%  
19	6.075	9.88	101.23%			123.46%  
20	6	10.00	101.25%			125.00%  
21	5.925	10.13	101.27%			126.58%  
22	5.85	10.26	101.28%			128.21%  
23	5.775	10.39	101.30%			129.87%  
24	5.7	10.53	101.32%			131.58%  
25	5.625	10.67	101.33%			133.33%  
26	5.55	10.81	101.35%			135.14%  
27	5.475	10.96	101.37%			136.99%  
28	5.4	11.11	101.39%			138.89%  
29	5.325	11.27	101.41%			140.85%  
30	5.25	11.43	101.43%			142.86%  
31	5.175	11.59	101.45%			144.93%  
32	5.1	11.76	101.47%			147.06%  
33	5.025	11.94	101.49%			149.25%  
34	4.95	12.12	101.52%			151.52%  
35	4.875	12.31	101.54%			153.85%  
36	4.8	12.50	101.56%			156.25%  
37	4.725	12.70	101.59%			158.73%  
38	4.65	12.90	101.61%			161.29%  
39	4.575	13.11	101.64%			163.93%  
40	4.5	13.33	101.67%			166.67%  
41	4.425	13.56	101.69%			169.49%  
42	4.35	13.79	101.72%			172.41%  
43	4.275	14.04	101.75%			175.44%  
44	4.2	14.29	101.79%			178.57%  
45	4.125	14.55	101.82%			181.82%  
46	4.05	14.81	101.85%			185.19%  
47	3.975	15.09	101.89%			188.68%  
48	3.9	15.38	101.92%			192.31%  
49	3.825	15.69	101.96%			196.08%  
50	3.75	16.00	102.00%			200.00%  
51	3.675	16.33	102.04%			204.08%  
52	3.6	16.67	102.08%			208.33%  
53	3.525	17.02	102.13%			212.77%  
54	3.45	17.39	102.17%			217.39%  
55	3.375	17.78	102.22%			222.22%  
56	3.3	18.18	102.27%			227.27%  
57	3.225	18.60	102.33%			232.56%  
58	3.15	19.05	102.38%			238.10%  
59	3.075	19.51	102.44%			243.90%  
60	3	20.00	102.50%			250.00%  
61	2.925	20.51	102.56%			256.41%  
62	2.85	21.05	102.63%			263.16%  
63	2.775	21.62	102.70%			270.27%  
64	2.7	22.22	102.78%			277.78%  
65	2.625	22.86	102.86%			285.71%  
66	2.55	23.53	102.94%			294.12%  
67	2.475	24.24	103.03%			303.03%  
68	2.4	25.00	103.13%			312.50%  
69	2.325	25.81	103.23%			322.58%  
70	2.25	26.67	103.33%			333.33%  
71	2.175	27.59	103.45%			344.83%  
72	2.1	28.57	103.57%			357.14%  
73	2.025	29.63	103.70%			370.37%  
74	1.95	30.77	103.85%			384.62%  
75	1.875	32.00	104.00%			400.00%  
76	1.8	33.33	104.17%			416.67%  
77	1.725	34.78	104.35%			434.78%  
78	1.65	36.36	104.55%			454.55%  
79	1.575	38.10	104.76%			476.19%  
80	1.5	40.00	105.00%			500.00%


note the "hits/min" column that i threw aqua font color into every 10 slots.

the % increase from any point in that to a later point is the % DoT increase you get from that much more haste. if that clunky sentence is unclear, here's some examples:

take going from 22% haste to 25% haste. on that list, 22% haste gets you 10.26 hits/min (really it's "rounds/min", but whatever). 25% haste gets you 10.67 rounds/min. 10.67 - 10.26 = .41 and .41/10.26 = 3.99%. in other words, adding 3% haste on top of 22% haste gives you about 4% DoT.

note, it doesn't matter what the delay of your weapon is, or how much dual wield you might have or whatever. 22%->25% haste is a 4% DoT increase for a delay 348 weapon, or for a 507 delay weapon, or a 100 delay weapon.

you can use this table to find different % increases in DoT from varying amounts of haste.

suppose you have 2x march, 18% gear haste with askar or 19% gear haste with turban, haste spell, and hasso. that's 63% to 64% haste. what % increase is that? (using method outlined above, you see that it's 2.77%)

but askar also has 4STR, 3ATT, and 3ACC on it. 4STR is about 1% DoT (raises base dmg by 1, and base dmg is around 100 for GA). 3ATT raises damage by something less than 1%, let's just say .5% (it would vary by mob). 3ACC raises hit rate by 1.5%, so without capping ACC, it yields at least 1.6% DoT. that has the extra stats yielding about 3.1% DoT.

so, turban has yet to overtake askar even at that very large % haste.

"but wait! i thought turban beat askar in certain scenarios!"

yeah, ACC capped scenarios. or, getting that last 1% from 69%->70% or so.

edit: pet peeve of mine: "<OP> i want this, BUT DON'T RESPOND WITH THAT!" i understand not wanting hearsay, but it's just kind of annoying to ask for information and take that attitude. this autobiographical note may seem self-indulgent, but "i don't want hearsay!" is also pretty self-indulgent, so i feel okay about it.


Edited, Mar 15th 2009 6:21am by milich


Conclusion: Askar head is hawt. In b4 redshift. >.>

Also, that is exactly what I had in the spreadsheet I made that I mentioned in the other thread, I was just lacking the "%increase, this one haste" column" Helps me out a lot.

Edited, Mar 16th 2009 11:52am by LordMnementh
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#10 Mar 16 2009 at 9:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Just to make sure I'm not missing anything horribly obvious...

N. Head is still the best hat for WS (aside from N. Head +1), right? I wasn't sure if the OP's question implied "in lieu of N. Head" or not.
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#11 Mar 16 2009 at 9:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
N. Head is still the best hat for WS (aside from N. Head +1), right? I wasn't sure if the OP's question implied "in lieu of N. Head" or not.


Askar is a decent WS option, but certainly not nearly the best. N. Head/+1 probably still holds that title. There are other not-N. Head options that are clearly better than Askar (Gnadbhod's Helm, Maat's Cap) and others that might be more of sidegrades, like Unicorn Cap.
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#12 Mar 16 2009 at 10:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ares's Mask is another excellent Head piece options for WSs.
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I don't care what anyone says, I like the beret look of N.Head and Unicorn Cap.
I actually prefer how Voyager Sallet looks. Smiley: grin
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#15 Mar 18 2009 at 3:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nilatai the Intelligent wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
I don't care what anyone says, I like the beret look of N.Head and Unicorn Cap.
I actually prefer how Voyager Sallet looks. Smiley: grin
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#16 Mar 18 2009 at 3:25 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nilatai the Intelligent wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
I don't care what anyone says, I like the beret look of N.Head and Unicorn Cap.
I actually prefer how Voyager Sallet looks. Smiley: grin
Robocop!
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#17 Mar 18 2009 at 4:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't care what anyone says, I like the beret look of N.Head and Unicorn Cap.
The Irish army wear beret type things.
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Grandmother MojoVIII wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
I don't care what anyone says, I like the beret look of N.Head and Unicorn Cap.
The Irish army wear beret type things.
Stole the idea from us! Smiley: motz
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#19 Mar 18 2009 at 5:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thats what i love about the warrior forums. Once the answer to a question is given, thread completely derails.

Theres no "coming back with more arguments" after that point.

Not that there was anything else to add after milich
#20 Mar 18 2009 at 5:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
I don't care what anyone says, I like the beret look of N.Head and Unicorn Cap.


I do too, but Adaman Celata cost me 90k, AND I love the look. (I always liked Celata)


Unicorn Cap Costs 600k, N.Head costs 2-4 mil :(
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wyrmnax wrote:
Thats what i love about the warrior forums. Once the answer to a question is given, thread completely derails.

Theres no "coming back with more arguments" after that point.

Not that there was anything else to add after milich
It's one of our specialties.
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WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#22 Mar 18 2009 at 7:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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LordMnementh wrote:
I do too, but Adaman Celata cost me 90k, AND I love the look.


Gogo Blue Power Ranger? :P
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#23 Mar 18 2009 at 9:25 AM Rating: Good
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LordMnementh wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
I don't care what anyone says, I like the beret look of N.Head and Unicorn Cap.


I do too, but Adaman Celata cost me 90k, AND I love the look. (I always liked Celata)


Unicorn Cap Costs 600k, N.Head costs 2-4 mil :(



Wut?
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Mazmaz
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bsphil wrote:
I suppose I could also call it "smallifying numberitude" but that sounds incredibly gay. Like, milich youtube playlist gay.
#24 Mar 18 2009 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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15,263 posts
mazmaz wrote:
LordMnementh wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
I don't care what anyone says, I like the beret look of N.Head and Unicorn Cap.


I do too, but Adaman Celata cost me 90k, AND I love the look. (I always liked Celata)


Unicorn Cap Costs 600k, N.Head costs 2-4 mil :(



Wut?
Assuming the fact you're not in a shell that camps kings and you buy from one.
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Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#25 Mar 18 2009 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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2,359 posts
I use Ares's Mask for WS, not particularly hard to get although it will cost ~2 mm+
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#26 Mar 19 2009 at 2:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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43,650 posts
Nilatai the Intelligent wrote:
wyrmnax wrote:
Thats what i love about the warrior forums. Once the answer to a question is given, thread completely derails.

Theres no "coming back with more arguments" after that point.

Not that there was anything else to add after milich
It's one of our specialties.
And silly pictures.
Screenshot
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George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#27 Mar 19 2009 at 4:12 AM Rating: Excellent
So That's how it happens...
I always wondered...
Screenshot


Edited, Mar 19th 2009 8:15am by MojoVIII
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Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Mojo gets it Smiley: thumbsup
#28 Mar 19 2009 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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15,263 posts
Did someone say silly pictures?

Screenshot


Two memes in one, **** i'm efficient.
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My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#29 Mar 20 2009 at 2:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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43,650 posts
Did someone say memes?
Screenshot
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#30 Mar 20 2009 at 4:32 AM Rating: Good
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15,263 posts
I see your Rick Astley, and raise you Meat Loaf!

Screenshot
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
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